How does pain decrease consciousness?

How does pain decrease consciousness?

Hi:

I posted this message before but didn't get any answers. I apologize
profusely to those who are annoyed by the repeated message.

The following martial arts site discusses certain techniques to
incapacitate opponents. The one I quoted talk about pain causing loss
of consciousness by disrupting the reticular formation. Is this true
science or just some age old myth?

Quote for http :// www .internetarmory,com /self defense.htm :

"It is speculated that various organs of the body can send pain
impulses to the brain stem indicating a severe or overwhelming bodily
injury. The reticular activating system responds by producing a
functional "shut down", which results in loss of consciousness within
a second or two."

According to the above information on that martial arts website,
severe pain can directly cause coma by shutting off the RAS. This
means that even if the link between pain and autonomic functions were
broken, excruciating pain would still cause the victim to lose
consciousness -- without syncope or any decrease perfusion of blood to
the brain. IOW, there is a direct, purely-neurological, non-cardiac,
non-circulatory, non-vascular, non-respiratory, non-autonomic, non-
endocrine, non-hormonal mechanism in which extreme agony -- even
without any bleeding or actual injury (to the head or other body
parts) -- rapidly leads to coma. Yup, just a sensation of pain along
-- if severe enough -- can cause unconsciousness. Just what is this
mysterious mechanism?? Seriously?!

I've been trying deathly hard to find answers to my own questions
doing my own research but I've found *nothing*.

Any understanding, cooperation, and assistance is greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

Radium

P.S. sorry for my recent outburst in these NGs. I was very frustrated
as haven't found any answer to my ever-so-interesting question.

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

i had been a volunteer rescue responder and have lived through a rough
neighbood, thus have seen injuries that causes great pain. The problem
is, once there is pain overload, the body actually reverts that it
feels calm and relaxed instead of feeling the pain. i dont think this
part of the story in site you are referring to is correct.


wallen

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

On Feb 10, 5:19 am, "wallen" <wall...@yahoo,com > wrote:

> The problem
> is, once there is pain overload, the body actually reverts that it
> feels calm and relaxed instead of feeling the pain.

What you describe is due to two reasons:

1. The stress causes a flood of endorphins which significantly
decreases the pain

2. Parasympthateic nervous system becomes hyperexcitable

Once again, though, this has to do with autonomic and endocrine
response. Nothing to do with pain directly screwing up the RAS.

According to the martial arts website for which I provided the link,
extreme pain can directly cause coma -- by causing the RAS [Reticular
Activating System] to "shut off" -- even if:

1. There is no actual physical injury to any part of the body

AND

2. There is no bleeding

AND

3. There is no infection

AND

4. The pain has absolutely no effects on cardiac, circulatory,
vascular, respiratory, autonomic,
endocrine, hormonal, or immune systems

So, what is the mechanism by which severe pain alters the reticular
activating system and causes coma?

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

On Feb 11, 5:20 am, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite,com > wrote:
> On Feb 10, 5:19 am, "wallen" <wall...@yahoo,com > wrote:
>
> > The problem
> > is, once there is pain overload, the body actually reverts that it
> > feels calm and relaxed instead of feeling the pain.
>
> What you describe is due to two reasons:
>
> 1. The stress causes a flood of endorphins which significantly
> decreases the pain
>
> 2. Parasympthateic nervous system becomes hyperexcitable
>
> Once again, though, this has to do with autonomic and endocrine
> response. Nothing to do with pain directly screwing up the RAS.
>
> According to the martial arts website for which I provided the link,
> extreme pain can directly cause coma -- by causing the RAS [Reticular
> Activating System] to "shut off" -- even if:
>
> 1. There is no actual physical injury to any part of the body
>
> AND
>
> 2. There is no bleeding
>
> AND
>
> 3. There is no infection
>
> AND
>
> 4. The pain has absolutely no effects on cardiac, circulatory,
> vascular, respiratory, autonomic,
> endocrine, hormonal, or immune systems
>
> So, what is the mechanism by which severe pain alters the reticular
> activating system and causes coma?

I think the RAS thing is Bullshit. pain is caused by nerve ending
being activated or the nerve pathways being subjected to presure or
destroyed.
once there is damage or activation, the pain signals the brain so that
the individual can protect the injured part.
at some point, the nervous system stops sending pain messages if the
damage done is beyondrepair. and this is not stress related. I'll give
you an example. my mothers friend(also my classmates mother) was
standing by the riverbank waiting for the boat taxi to get her and her
husband accross.then there was this soldier was arguing with his wife
fired his rifle towards the river hitting her. she felt something
tapped her back and did not give notice to it. a few seconds later,
her back felt warm, so she felt it wondering why. it was wet to her
touch and so puzzled she looked at her hands. she saw blood. at the
sight of blood she fainted and was rushed to the hospital by her
husband.

prior to her fainting, there was no stress, there was no pain but she
was already bleeding from a bullet wound. no pain because there was no
more the body can do about the damage. had it been a fight or flight
situation, the negation of pain signal will enable her to make her
attack or flight more succesful because of the omission of unwanted
stimuli.

hence RAS overload is not real. I have yet to see a pregnant woman
fainting due to pain. giving birth according to scientific studies is
among the worst pain a person can feel. injuries or turture can be
another matter as it is also tainted with great emotion.

just my two cents

wallen

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 05:19:18 -0800, wallen wrote:

> i had been a volunteer rescue responder and have lived through a rough
> neighbood, thus have seen injuries that causes great pain. The problem
> is, once there is pain overload, the body actually reverts that it
> feels calm and relaxed instead of feeling the pain. i dont think this
> part of the story in site you are referring to is correct.


some people can also just ignore the pain response, I can do this

--
Dale
http :// www .vedantasite.org

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite,com > wrote in message
news:1171085475.043845.72510@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups,com ...
> Hi:
>
> I posted this message before but didn't get any answers. I apologize
> profusely to those who are annoyed by the repeated message.
>
> The following martial arts site discusses certain techniques to
> incapacitate opponents. The one I quoted talk about pain causing loss
> of consciousness by disrupting the reticular formation. Is this true
> science or just some age old myth?
>
> Quote for http :// www .internetarmory,com /self_defense.htm :
>
> "It is speculated that various organs of the body can send pain
> impulses to the brain stem indicating a severe or overwhelming bodily
> injury. The reticular activating system responds by producing a
> functional "shut down", which results in loss of consciousness within
> a second or two."
>
> According to the above information on that martial arts website,
> severe pain can directly cause coma by shutting off the RAS. This
> means that even if the link between pain and autonomic functions were
> broken, excruciating pain would still cause the victim to lose
> consciousness -- without syncope or any decrease perfusion of blood to
> the brain. IOW, there is a direct, purely-neurological, non-cardiac,
> non-circulatory, non-vascular, non-respiratory, non-autonomic, non-
> endocrine, non-hormonal mechanism in which extreme agony -- even
> without any bleeding or actual injury (to the head or other body
> parts) -- rapidly leads to coma. Yup, just a sensation of pain along
> -- if severe enough -- can cause unconsciousness. Just what is this
> mysterious mechanism?? Seriously?!
>
> I've been trying deathly hard to find answers to my own questions
> doing my own research but I've found *nothing*.
>
> Any understanding, cooperation, and assistance is greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium
> [...]

I've not followed the URL, nor have I
studied "pain" in the way you have
discussed it, but the reticular formation
is crucial to =all= of nervous system
function.

Routine occurrences of "pain" tune
'the' nervous system so that it's out-
puts decrease the stress that injured
tissue must carry.

Taken to extremes, the same thing
can, and probably does, 'overwhelm'
global nervous system function.

Perhaps it's a "last-ditch" survival
strategy -- like "playing possum"
[any instance of an animal appearing
to be dead in order to escape the in-
escapable.]

But nervous systems are just like
any other complex systems -- if
one hits them with a sledge hammer,
such is certain to impact their functional
characteristics.

With respect to such, the conscious
experience of "pain" is only a very-
superficial thing that reflects under-
lying neural dynamics. So, if there's
a global functionality variance, it's not
"pain", itself, that causes it, but the
underpinning neural dynamics.

"Pain" is to these underpinning
neural dynamics as "language"
is to "cognition" -- cognition is
extremely-more than "language".

Pain and language are commun-
ications interfaces that "lay on
top of" almost all of what occurs
within nervous systems.

So, if the guy said "pain causes
unconsciousness", he was in-
correct.

It's nervous systems, as wholes,
becoming 'overwhelmed' or in-
ternally-disconnected, that result
in unconsciousness.

Why folks didn't reply was because
your Q requires =huge= discussion.

Folks presume that anyone who
wants to know will do the necessary
background studies. Such huge Qs
require offline study because they
cannot be adequately treated in the
contexts of newsgroup discussions.

So, don't be angry, and it's probably
the case that no one took offense.

Your Q just requires whole textbooks
to answer.

ken

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

On Feb 10, 7:58 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:
> Taken to extremes, the same thing
> can, and probably does, 'overwhelm'
> global nervous system function.
>
> Perhaps it's a "last-ditch" survival
> strategy -- like "playing possum"
> [any instance of an animal appearing
> to be dead in order to escape the in-
> escapable.]

Intersting.

> But nervous systems are just like
> any other complex systems -- if
> one hits them with a sledge hammer,
> such is certain to impact their functional
> characteristics.
>
> With respect to such, the conscious
> experience of "pain" is only a very-
> superficial thing that reflects under-
> lying neural dynamics. So, if there's
> a global functionality variance, it's not
> "pain", itself, that causes it, but the
> underpinning neural dynamics.
>
> "Pain" is to these underpinning
> neural dynamics as "language"
> is to "cognition" -- cognition is
> extremely-more than "language".
>
> Pain and language are commun-
> ications interfaces that "lay on
> top of" almost all of what occurs
> within nervous systems.

Understood.

> So, if the guy said "pain causes
> unconsciousness", he was in-
> correct.
>
> It's nervous systems, as wholes,
> becoming 'overwhelmed' or in-
> ternally-disconnected, that result
> in unconsciousness.

I totally agree. Perceptions -- include that of pain -- are of little
consequence in this aspect. What really interests me, is how the
mechanism of "disconnection" works.

> Why folks didn't reply was because
> your Q requires =huge= discussion.
>
> Folks presume that anyone who
> wants to know will do the necessary
> background studies. Such huge Qs
> require offline study because they
> cannot be adequately treated in the
> contexts of newsgroup discussions.
>
> So, don't be angry, and it's probably
> the case that no one took offense.
>
> Your Q just requires whole textbooks
> to answer.

Okay. Thanks for easing my frustration.

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

On Feb 11, 3:54 pm, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite,com > wrote:
> On Feb 10, 7:58 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:
>
> > Taken to extremes, the same thing
> > can, and probably does, 'overwhelm'
> > global nervous system function.
>
> > Perhaps it's a "last-ditch" survival
> > strategy -- like "playing possum"
> > [any instance of an animal appearing
> > to be dead in order to escape the in-
> > escapable.]
>
> Intersting.
>
>
>
>
>
> > But nervous systems are just like
> > any other complex systems -- if
> > one hits them with a sledge hammer,
> > such is certain to impact their functional
> > characteristics.
>
> > With respect to such, the conscious
> > experience of "pain" is only a very-
> > superficial thing that reflects under-
> > lying neural dynamics. So, if there's
> > a global functionality variance, it's not
> > "pain", itself, that causes it, but the
> > underpinning neural dynamics.
>
> > "Pain" is to these underpinning
> > neural dynamics as "language"
> > is to "cognition" -- cognition is
> > extremely-more than "language".
>
> > Pain and language are commun-
> > ications interfaces that "lay on
> > top of" almost all of what occurs
> > within nervous systems.
>
> Understood.
>
> > So, if the guy said "pain causes
> > unconsciousness", he was in-
> > correct.
>
> > It's nervous systems, as wholes,
> > becoming 'overwhelmed' or in-
> > ternally-disconnected, that result
> > in unconsciousness.
>
> I totally agree. Perceptions -- include that of pain -- are of little
> consequence in this aspect. What really interests me, is how the
> mechanism of "disconnection" works.
>
> > Why folks didn't reply was because
> > your Q requires =huge= discussion.
>
> > Folks presume that anyone who
> > wants to know will do the necessary
> > background studies. Such huge Qs
> > require offline study because they
> > cannot be adequately treated in the
> > contexts of newsgroup discussions.
>
> > So, don't be angry, and it's probably
> > the case that no one took offense.
>
> > Your Q just requires whole textbooks
> > to answer.
>
> Okay. Thanks for easing my frustration.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The level of pain required in order to loose consciousness is extreme,
at that level of pain you can actually die of shock.
I understand that this was a huge problem in surgery before effective
anesthetics were inverted.
That's why in the 19th century there were doctors who could perform 3-
second amputations.

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

On Feb 10, 9:15 pm, "Scary" <modelmak...@msn,com > wrote:
> The level of pain required in order to loose consciousness is extreme,
> at that level of pain you can actually die of shock.

This shock is known as neurogenic shock and kills by resulting in
severe decrease in blood pressure by causing the following:

1. Force of the heart muscles' contractions decrease significantly
2. Heart rate decreases dramatically.
3. Blood vessels around the body widen

Anyways, the above shock is due to overwhelming of the autonomic
nervous system and has *nothing* to do with pain signalling the RAS to
"shut off" consciousness.

The shock you describe is a very indirect manner in which pain causes
unconsciousness [i.e. lack of circulation to brain]. The martial arts
website describe a more direct somatic neurological way in which the
pain alters the electrical activity in the RAS and causes loss of
consciousness.

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite,com > wrote in message
news:1171169684.463482.217880@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
> On Feb 10, 7:58 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:
>> [...]

> What really interests me, is how the
> mechanism of "disconnection" works.
> [...]

When I wrote of "disconnection", I was
referring explicitly to physical leisions
[physical damage] within the nervous
system.

It seems to me that you're inferring that,
"if pain is sufficiently severe, one will
lose consciousness".

What I was saying was that, if a person
loses consciousness due to such ex-
treme "pain", then that probably indicates
that there's underlying neural damage
that was caused by the physical trauma
that the "pain" was communicating to
consciousness before consciousness
was lost.

"Pain" and the underlying neural damage
are often correlated but are actually two
different things.

When one sprains an ankle, for instance,
"pain" communicates into consciousness
so that consciousness 'understands' why
one "limps" when one walks, but why one
"limps" when one walks happens because
the "pain" sensation is relatively-diffusely-
distributed within brain stem regions, and
this has a specific effect within ongoing
neural dynamics that is topologically-dis-
tributed within a highly-stereotypical neur-
al architecture -- elevating the ratio of ex-
citation to inhibition [TD E/I] in a way that's
topographically-mapped to both the sens-
ory receptors of the ankle and the musc-
ulature whose activation "puts stress on"
the ankle.

The diffuse mapping of "pain" elevates
TD E/I, which elevated TD E/I is inverted
by the totally-inhibitory outputs of the
cerebellum, the inverted 'state' is pro-
jected back to the muscles that "stress"
[activate] the ankle -- so the ankle is
automatically activated less forcefully,
which minimizes further tissue damage
and optimizes healing of the injured
ankle.

The actuality of the weakened activation
is directly-observable in the fact that
the muscles activating the ankle "go
limp", which is also monitorable via
myographic electrode arrays applied
to various loci on the body's surface
[an injured ankle shows up even in
such far-away places as the back,
trunk, and neck musculature -- a
sorrowful case of such was with re-
spect to the thoroughbred, Barbaro's
devastating injury and valliant fight
for survival -- one could see the ef-
fects of the activation-shifts discus-
sed above spreading through Bar-
baro's body as one area after another
became overwhelmed because of
the extra burden it had to carry in
order to allow "the other area" an
opportunity to heal. [There has to
be a way to artificially return injured
horses 'to the womb', there to heal
in that artificially-maintained 'state' --
I mean, render the horse in a 'state'
of induced unconsciousness [in-
duced immobility], and allow the
injury to heal in that 'state'. [Don't
ask me how to actually accomplish
this -- it's just obvious to me that
the problem is that a standing horse
needs four good legs -- so the prob-
lem is how to sustain the horse's
life while the horse is, 'somehow',
freed from having to stand. Could the
horse be suspended in some kind
of antibiotic-laced 'jello', fed intra-
veneously, etc.? Sorry about the
digression. I liked Barbaro. His
losing his struggle saddened me.
So I've been thinking about this
stuff -- trying to come up with some-
thing that could save future valliant
horses.]

ken

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

On Feb 10, 10:24 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:
> When I wrote of "disconnection", I was
> referring explicitly to physical leisions
> [physical damage] within the nervous
> system.

Okay. You are talking about injury.

> It seems to me that you're inferring that,
> "if pain is sufficiently severe, one will
> lose consciousness".

Well, thats what I guessed, given the information from that website

> What I was saying was that, if a person
> loses consciousness due to such ex-
> treme "pain", then that probably indicates
> that there's underlying neural damage
> that was caused by the physical trauma
> that the "pain" was communicating to
> consciousness before consciousness
> was lost.

What if there is no injury to the brain? Lets say an individual who --
for some mysterious reason -- is completely insensitive to pain. If
this subject receives a rupturing blow to only the afferent [sensory]
nerves -- without injuring the efferent [motor] nerves -- of the solar-
plexus [without causing any syncope to the brain, alteration to the
circulatory or respiratory systems, bleeding, secondary injury (such
as from falls), infection, or injury to vital organs -- such as the
liver or spleen], will this person become unconscious? If so, what
most likely would cause this unconsciousness?

> "Pain" and the underlying neural damage
> are often correlated but are actually two
> different things.

Understood. But this brings up another question.

What symptoms -- other than the obvious *excruciating* sharp pain --
would I most-likely experience if some mysterious power stimulated as
many A-delta nociceptors -- to the maximum extent -- in my body
possible without causing any sensory overload [overload would cancel
the effects of A-delta pain] or causing any damage/exhaustion to the A-
delta nociceptors, given the following:

1. There is no actual physical injury to any part of the body

AND

2. There is no bleeding

AND

3. There is no infection

AND

4. The pain has absolutely no effects on cardiac, circulatory,
vascular, respiratory, autonomic, endocrine, hormonal, immune systems,
motor functions [voluntary or not; including vocalizations], or any
reflexes [visceral or somatic]

Given all the above, would I lose consciousness? My guess is yes. The
excruciating sharp pain would signal my RAS [Reticular Activating
System] to "shut off" consciousness -- at least according to that
martial arts website. Do I guess right?

Quotes from http :// courses.washington.edu/conj/sensory/pain.htm :

"An A-delta fiber responds to either mechanical stimuli or temperature
stimuli in the painful realm and produces the acute sensation of
sharp, bright pain."

"By contrast, a C fiber can respond to a broad range of painful
stimuli, including mechanical, thermal or metabolic factors. The pain
produced is slow, burning, and long lasting."

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite,com > wrote in message
news:1171211680.542562.80070@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups,com ...
> On Feb 10, 10:24 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:
>> When I wrote of "disconnection", I was
>> referring explicitly to physical leisions
>> [physical damage] within the nervous
>> system.
>
> Okay. You are talking about injury.
>
>> It seems to me that you're inferring that,
>> "if pain is sufficiently severe, one will
>> lose consciousness".
>
> Well, thats what I guessed, given the information from that website
>
>> What I was saying was that, if a person
>> loses consciousness due to such ex-
>> treme "pain", then that probably indicates
>> that there's underlying neural damage
>> that was caused by the physical trauma
>> that the "pain" was communicating to
>> consciousness before consciousness
>> was lost.
>
> What if there is no injury to the brain? Lets say an individual who --
> for some mysterious reason -- is completely insensitive to pain. If
> this subject receives a rupturing blow to only the afferent [sensory]

The only way that this could actually
happen is by a supernaturally-tal-
ented Neurosurgeon using all her
skill, and extremely-good instruments,
under a microscope.

Blunt trauma just doesn't discriminate
between sensory and motor neural
architecture because they are both
always intimately-involved.

Lesion a single "motor" neuron, and
the effects of doing so show up in
"sensory" neural dynamics.

> nerves -- without injuring the efferent [motor] nerves -- of the solar-
> plexus [without causing any syncope to the brain, alteration to the
> circulatory or respiratory systems, bleeding, secondary injury (such
> as from falls), infection, or injury to vital organs -- such as the
> liver or spleen], will this person become unconscious? If so, what
> most likely would cause this unconsciousness?

I've not studied solar plexus trauma
explicitly, but, as I discussed in a msg
I posted earlier, forceful blows physical-
ly "distort" neural topology, and distorted
neural topology distorts neural activation
dynamics.

I 'presume' [without knowing with cert-
ainty] that it's the distortion-induced
modification of the neural activation
dynamics that induces 'unconscious-
ness' in all blunt-force trauma that
'does not' sever any neural tissue.
[But see my comments in the other
msgs I've posted [in bionet.neuroscience]
earlier this 'night'.]

>
>> "Pain" and the underlying neural damage
>> are often correlated but are actually two
>> different things.
>
> Understood. But this brings up another question.
>
> What symptoms -- other than the obvious *excruciating* sharp pain --
> would I most-likely experience if some mysterious power stimulated as
> many A-delta nociceptors -- to the maximum extent -- in my body
> possible without causing any sensory overload [overload would cancel
> the effects of A-delta pain] or causing any damage/exhaustion to the A-
> delta nociceptors, given the following:
>
> 1. There is no actual physical injury to any part of the body
>
> AND
>
> 2. There is no bleeding
>
> AND
>
> 3. There is no infection
>
> AND
>
> 4. The pain has absolutely no effects on cardiac, circulatory,
> vascular, respiratory, autonomic, endocrine, hormonal, immune systems,
> motor functions [voluntary or not; including vocalizations], or any
> reflexes [visceral or somatic]

What you propose, above, is
Impossible.

> Given all the above, would I lose consciousness? My guess is yes. The
> excruciating sharp pain would signal my RAS [Reticular Activating
> System] to "shut off" consciousness -- at least according to that
> martial arts website. Do I guess right?

No. Loss of consciousness just
doesn't occur as you've proposed.

It happens because neural trauma,
either 'temporary' or permanent, has
occurred.

There is no 'magic'.

Alter a "system" and the "system"
'functions' in a way that reflects
the alterations that have been im-
posed upon it.

> Quotes from http :// courses.washington.edu/conj/sensory/pain.htm :
>
> "An A-delta fiber responds to either mechanical stimuli or temperature
> stimuli in the painful realm and produces the acute sensation of
> sharp, bright pain."
>
> "By contrast, a C fiber can respond to a broad range of painful
> stimuli, including mechanical, thermal or metabolic factors. The pain
> produced is slow, burning, and long lasting."

So...?

ken

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

On Feb 11, 8:56 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:

> What you propose, above, is
> Impossible.

It is definitely extremely improbable but what makes it impossible?

> No. Loss of consciousness just
> doesn't occur as you've proposed.

According that martial arts website, the pain does cause the RAS to
cause coma.

> It happens because neural trauma,
> either 'temporary' or permanent, has
> occurred.

Unconsciousness isn't always due to trauma.

> There is no 'magic'.

Never said there is.

> Alter a "system" and the "system"
> 'functions' in a way that reflects
> the alterations that have been im-
> posed upon it.

Okay.

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite,com > wrote in message
news:1171257251.808727.183760@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups,com ...
> On Feb 11, 8:56 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:
>
>> What you propose, above, is
>> Impossible.
>
> It is definitely extremely improbable but what makes it impossible?

You snipped the explanation.

You described a condition that
cannot occur because the spec-
ific deficits you described cannot
occur without a lot of other stuff
simultaneously occurring, which
renders the specific conditions
you described non-existent.

Nervous systems are =tightly=
globally-integrated, which is a
prerequisite of "unified consci-
ousness.

>> No. Loss of consciousness just
>> doesn't occur as you've proposed.
>
> According that martial arts website, the pain does cause the RAS to
> cause coma.

Such info must always be cross-
correlated with respect to other
available sources of info.

One wants to benefit from the
work done by as many other
people as possible -- in order
to see what's upheld when all
such is integrated.

>> It happens because neural trauma,
>> either 'temporary' or permanent, has
>> occurred.
>
> Unconsciousness isn't always due to trauma.

Well, there is sleeping-consciousness,
and there's consciousness that's so
narrowly-focussed that one is oblivious
to almost everything else [until a loud
noise, or something like that occurs],
but what other kind of "unconsciousness"
is there?

If a guy's "out-cold" on the floor, it is
100%-certain that there's correlated
neural trauma involved, as I discussed
in my preceding post, at least 'temporarily'.

This 100%-ertainty also derives in
the tight global-integration I reit-
erated above [although more than
I've posted to you is necessary for
it's 'full' comprehension.]

>
>> There is no 'magic'.
>
> Never said there is.
>
>> Alter a "system" and the "system"
>> 'functions' in a way that reflects
>> the alterations that have been im-
>> posed upon it.
>
> Okay.

Cheers, Radium,

ken

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

"Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon,net > wrote in message
news:AEyzh.262$5M1.50@trndny01...
> "Radium" <glucegen1@excite,com > wrote in message
> news:1171169684.463482.217880@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
>> On Feb 10, 7:58 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:
>>> [...]
> [...]

> What I was saying was that, if a person
> loses consciousness due to such ex-
> treme "pain", then that probably indicates
> that there's underlying neural damage
> that was caused by the physical trauma
> that the "pain" was communicating to
> consciousness before consciousness
> was lost.
>
> "Pain" and the underlying neural damage
> are often correlated but are actually two
> different things.
> [...]

Most-often most of the neural damage is
a 'temporary' consequence of abnormal
physical displacements 'within' the neur-
al network. Such displacements alter the
'normal' neural topology so that 'normal'
neural-activation coincidences do not oc-
cur [which constitutes a TD E/I(up) condi-
tion.]

The neural tissue has some built-in re-
silience which tends to return the neur-
al network to a somewhat 'normal' con-
dition ['normal' topology] if the forces
that imposed the injury did not sever
anything.

Most "concussions" are like this, although
usually more than just the brain stem is
involved.

These sorts of 'temporary' displacements
[temporary distortions of the neural to-
pology] occur because, in its living 'state',
the brain has the consistency of a semi-stiff
pudding [which consistency exists as a
physical substrate for the "hydraulic"
stuff that I've been discussing in other
threads here in b.n. "Concussions" are
abnormallly-rapid and large occurrences
of 'normal' hydraulic 'plasticity'. That is,
nervous systems are vulnerable to con-
cussive injury be-cause they use the ex-
tremely-less-violent versions of the 'same'
displacement dynamics during their 'norm-
al' functioning. The forces that injure ab-
use this innate stuff that's fundamental
within all of nervous system function.]

It's probable that all such 'temporary'
displacements leave behind at least
minor permanent injury, and that these
scraps of the 'discrete' trauma occur-
rences accumulate with repeated oc-
currences of such violently-forced 'temp-
orary' displacements.

ken