Pain vs. Neural Injury

Pain vs. Neural Injury

On Feb 10, 10:24 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote in http ://
groups.google,com /group/bionet.neuroscience/msg/a33d323506623861?
hl=en& :

> When I wrote of "disconnection", I was
> referring explicitly to physical leisions
> [physical damage] within the nervous
> system.

Okay. You are talking about injury. I am was discussing pain
seperately.

> It seems to me that you're inferring that,
> "if pain is sufficiently severe, one will
> lose consciousness".

Well, thats what I guessed, given the information from that website.

> What I was saying was that, if a person
> loses consciousness due to such ex-
> treme "pain", then that probably indicates
> that there's underlying neural damage
> that was caused by the physical trauma
> that the "pain" was communicating to
> consciousness before consciousness
> was lost.

What if there is no injury to the brain? Lets say an individual who --
for some mysterious reason -- is completely insensitive to pain. If
this subject receives a rupturing blow to only the afferent [sensory]
nerves -- without injuring the efferent [motor] nerves -- of the solar-
plexus [without causing any syncope to the brain, alteration to the
circulatory or respiratory systems, bleeding, secondary injury (such
as from falls), infection, or injury to vital organs -- such as the
liver or spleen], will this person become unconscious? If so, what
most likely would cause this unconsciousness?

> "Pain" and the underlying neural damage
> are often correlated but are actually two
> different things.

Understood. But this brings up another question.

What symptoms -- other than the obvious *excruciating* sharp pain --
would I most-likely experience if some mysterious power stimulated as
many A-delta nociceptors -- to the maximum extent -- in my body
possible without causing any sensory overload [overload would cancel
the effects of A-delta pain] or causing any damage/exhaustion to the A-
delta nociceptors, given the following:

1. There is no actual physical injury to any part of the body

AND

2. There is no bleeding

AND

3. There is no infection

AND

4. The pain has absolutely no effects on cardiac, circulatory,
vascular, respiratory, autonomic, endocrine, hormonal, immune systems,
motor functions [voluntary or not; including vocalizations], or any
reflexes [visceral or somatic]

Given all the above, would I lose consciousness? My guess is yes. The
excruciating sharp pain would signal my RAS [Reticular Activating
System] to "shut off" consciousness -- at least according to that
martial arts website. Do I guess right?

Quotes from http :// courses.washington.edu/conj/sensory/pain.htm :

"An A-delta fiber responds to either mechanical stimuli or temperature
stimuli in the painful realm and produces the acute sensation of
sharp, bright pain."

"By contrast, a C fiber can respond to a broad range of painful
stimuli, including mechanical, thermal or metabolic factors. The pain
produced is slow, burning, and long lasting."


Thanks,

Radium

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

On Feb 11, 1:07 pm, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite,com > wrote:
> On Feb 10, 10:24 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote in http ://
> groups.google,com /group/bionet.neuroscience/msg/a33d323506623861?
> hl=en& :
>
> > When I wrote of "disconnection", I was
> > referring explicitly to physical leisions
> > [physical damage] within the nervous
> > system.
>
> Okay. You are talking about injury. I am was discussing pain
> seperately.
>
> > It seems to me that you're inferring that,
> > "if pain is sufficiently severe, one will
> > lose consciousness".
>
> Well, thats what I guessed, given the information from that website.
>
> > What I was saying was that, if a person
> > loses consciousness due to such ex-
> > treme "pain", then that probably indicates
> > that there's underlying neural damage
> > that was caused by the physical trauma
> > that the "pain" was communicating to
> > consciousness before consciousness
> > was lost.
>
> What if there is no injury to the brain? Lets say an individual who --
> for some mysterious reason -- is completely insensitive to pain. If
> this subject receives a rupturing blow to only the afferent [sensory]
> nerves -- without injuring the efferent [motor] nerves -- of the solar-
> plexus [without causing any syncope to the brain, alteration to the
> circulatory or respiratory systems, bleeding, secondary injury (such
> as from falls), infection, or injury to vital organs -- such as the
> liver or spleen], will this person become unconscious? If so, what
> most likely would cause this unconsciousness?
>
> > "Pain" and the underlying neural damage
> > are often correlated but are actually two
> > different things.
>
> Understood. But this brings up another question.
>
> What symptoms -- other than the obvious *excruciating* sharp pain --
> would I most-likely experience if some mysterious power stimulated as
> many A-delta nociceptors -- to the maximum extent -- in my body
> possible without causing any sensory overload [overload would cancel
> the effects of A-delta pain] or causing any damage/exhaustion to the A-
> delta nociceptors, given the following:
>
> 1. There is no actual physical injury to any part of the body
>
> AND
>
> 2. There is no bleeding
>
> AND
>
> 3. There is no infection
>
> AND
>
> 4. The pain has absolutely no effects on cardiac, circulatory,
> vascular, respiratory, autonomic, endocrine, hormonal, immune systems,
> motor functions [voluntary or not; including vocalizations], or any
> reflexes [visceral or somatic]
>
> Given all the above, would I lose consciousness? My guess is yes. The
> excruciating sharp pain would signal my RAS [Reticular Activating
> System] to "shut off" consciousness -- at least according to that
> martial arts website. Do I guess right?
>
> Quotes from http :// courses.washington.edu/conj/sensory/pain.htm:
>
> "An A-delta fiber responds to either mechanical stimuli or temperature
> stimuli in the painful realm and produces the acute sensation of
> sharp, bright pain."
>
> "By contrast, a C fiber can respond to a broad range of painful
> stimuli, including mechanical, thermal or metabolic factors. The pain
> produced is slow, burning, and long lasting."
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium

WELL I got nothing technical to add.But I'll just say thru years of
observation that pain does many things different to different
people.Causes some to quit, some to panic and weaken the cardio, some
it motivates.
And pain in regard to fighting can't really be seperated from
adrenaline.I had many MMA fights and never noticed pain once.I
remember getting kicked clean by kickboxers and bleeding all over and
thinking "That really should hurt."

Just my opinion, but I train very healthy strong and vibrant
fighters.I actually think being mesemorphic, athletic and coodinated
is correlated with feeling pain MORE .Id guess cause ones in tough
with ones nerves to move well.
However I train fighters who wince at every shin to shin contact, but
who in a ring seem impervious to pain, as the adrenaline completely
masks it.
Gi

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

On Feb 11, 6:34 pm, "SPORTfighter" <billamaho...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> WELL I got nothing technical to add.But I'll just say thru years of
> observation that pain does many things different to different
> people.Causes some to quit, some to panic and weaken the cardio, some
> it motivates.
> And pain in regard to fighting can't really be seperated from
> adrenaline.I had many MMA fights and never noticed pain once.I
> remember getting kicked clean by kickboxers and bleeding all over and
> thinking "That really should hurt."
>
> Just my opinion, but I train very healthy strong and vibrant
> fighters.I actually think being mesemorphic, athletic and coodinated
> is correlated with feeling pain MORE .Id guess cause ones in tough
> with ones nerves to move well.
> However I train fighters who wince at every shin to shin contact, but
> who in a ring seem impervious to pain, as the adrenaline completely
> masks it.
> Gi

Well, as you said, you didn't add anything relevant [no offense].
However, as for the numbness to pain, extreme injury can cause a flood
of endorphins to be released which decreases pain perception. Like you
said, adrenaline also acts as a natural analgesic.

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

On 12 feb, 03:34, "SPORTfighter" <billamaho...@yahoo,com > wrote:

> Just my opinion, but I train very healthy strong and vibrant
> fighters.I actually think being mesemorphic, athletic and coodinated
> is correlated with feeling pain MORE .Id guess cause ones in tough
> with ones nerves to move well.

The last I heard, endomorphs feel pain more. I forget why this should
be.

But like you say, it's what you do with it that counts. I think one of
the most useful things I've learnt from MA is to differentiate bad
pain from "just pain" pain, and ignore the latter.

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

On Feb 11, 10:07 am, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite,com > wrote:
> On Feb 10, 10:24 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote in http ://
> groups.google,com /group/bionet.neuroscience/msg/a33d323506623861?
> hl=en& :
>
> > When I wrote of "disconnection", I was
> > referring explicitly to physical leisions
> > [physical damage] within the nervous
> > system.
>
> Okay. You are talking about injury. I am was discussing pain
> seperately.
>
> > It seems to me that you're inferring that,
> > "if pain is sufficiently severe, one will
> > lose consciousness".
>
> Well, thats what I guessed, given the information from that website.
>
> > What I was saying was that, if a person
> > loses consciousness due to such ex-
> > treme "pain", then that probably indicates
> > that there's underlying neural damage
> > that was caused by the physical trauma
> > that the "pain" was communicating to
> > consciousness before consciousness
> > was lost.
>
> What if there is no injury to the brain? Lets say an individual who --
> for some mysterious reason -- is completely insensitive to pain. If
> this subject receives a rupturing blow to only the afferent [sensory]
> nerves -- without injuring the efferent [motor] nerves -- of the solar-
> plexus [without causing any syncope to the brain, alteration to the
> circulatory or respiratory systems, bleeding, secondary injury (such
> as from falls), infection, or injury to vital organs -- such as the
> liver or spleen], will this person become unconscious? If so, what
> most likely would cause this unconsciousness?
>
> > "Pain" and the underlying neural damage
> > are often correlated but are actually two
> > different things.
>
> Understood. But this brings up another question.
>
> What symptoms -- other than the obvious *excruciating* sharp pain --
> would I most-likely experience if some mysterious power stimulated as
> many A-delta nociceptors -- to the maximum extent -- in my body
> possible without causing any sensory overload [overload would cancel
> the effects of A-delta pain] or causing any damage/exhaustion to the A-
> delta nociceptors, given the following:
>
> 1. There is no actual physical injury to any part of the body
>
> AND
>
> 2. There is no bleeding
>
> AND
>
> 3. There is no infection
>
> AND
>
> 4. The pain has absolutely no effects on cardiac, circulatory,
> vascular, respiratory, autonomic, endocrine, hormonal, immune systems,
> motor functions [voluntary or not; including vocalizations], or any
> reflexes [visceral or somatic]
>
> Given all the above, would I lose consciousness? My guess is yes. The
> excruciating sharp pain would signal my RAS [Reticular Activating
> System] to "shut off" consciousness -- at least according to that
> martial arts website. Do I guess right?
>
> Quotes from http :// courses.washington.edu/conj/sensory/pain.htm:
>
> "An A-delta fiber responds to either mechanical stimuli or temperature
> stimuli in the painful realm and produces the acute sensation of
> sharp, bright pain."
>
> "By contrast, a C fiber can respond to a broad range of painful
> stimuli, including mechanical, thermal or metabolic factors. The pain
> produced is slow, burning, and long lasting."
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium

Benjamin, would you like to add your inputs?

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

i dont think it is posible to experience extreme pain without any sort
of injury as pain itself is a signal of injury.

unless the pain is purely psychological, like in the case of
pain,feeling the amputated limb which is healed by-tadaa!!!! mirrors.

no injury, no pain. its as simple as that, so i think the RAS theory
is BS.

by the way, the way you are discussing the link, makes me think you
authored it. Somehow...,it just fells like so.

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

Per wallen:
>i dont think it is posible to experience extreme pain without any sort
>of injury as pain itself is a signal of injury.

If "injury" includes nerves slowly dying, yes.

If not, one would have to explain the pain felt by those afflicted with
peripheral neuropathy.
--
PeteCresswell

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

On Feb 12, 9:15 am, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
> If not, one would have to explain the pain felt by those afflicted with
> peripheral neuropathy.

Not necessarily. Post-Traumtic-Stress-Disorder can cause tactile
hallucinations of extreme pain. Common in war veterans, prisoners,
victims of natural disasters, those who have lost a loved one,
witnessing a tragedy, as well as those subjected to childhood abuse or
molestation.

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite,com > wrote in message
news:1171306031.215083.69940@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups,com ...
> On Feb 12, 9:15 am, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
>> If not, one would have to explain the pain felt by those afflicted with
>> peripheral neuropathy.
>
> Not necessarily. Post-Traumtic-Stress-Disorder can cause tactile
> hallucinations of extreme pain. Common in war veterans, prisoners,
> victims of natural disasters, those who have lost a loved one,
> witnessing a tragedy, as well as those subjected to childhood abuse or
> molestation.

all of the above have neural-dynamic
correlates.

"hit a system with a sledge hammer,
and the system's functioning is altered."

Work on seeing that "consciousness"
is coupled to biological function.

All "intense" experiences alter the
neuro-biology, and hence, that
which is "perceived" in "consci-
ousness".

You've not been carrying this one
thing through in your discussions.

Like John H. said, there's a lot in-
there that has to be dealt with be-
fore one can "attribute cause".

It's not a "snap-your-fingers" kind
of thing.

Over and out.

ken

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

On Feb 12, 3:38 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:
> all of the above have neural-dynamic
> correlates.
>
> Work on seeing that "consciousness"
> is coupled to biological function.
>
> All "intense" experiences alter the
> neuro-biology, and hence, that
> which is "perceived" in "consci-
> ousness".

I totally agree. The mind is part of the body. But try telling that to
that to "Artis" [artis5@farscape,com ].

At the end of last October I started a topic on psychogenic deafness
in alt.support.hearing-loss

In that thread, I was stressing that all psychogenic disoders
ultimately have a physical cause. Most of them, especially Artis,
showed extreme anger and disagreement to me. Most of them insisted
that psychogenic disorders are caused by the mind and that the mind is
a purely non-physical entity seperate from even the brain. What
morons!

"Kol Isha" <kol isha@hotmail,com > disagrees with me on anything/
everything because he/she/it has a personal vendatta against me for
what reason I don't know and don't care.

Steve B (pretty good@every.thing) is one of the few realistic
responders who have the ability to distinguish fact from fiction.

Here is the thread:

http :// groups.google,com /group/alt.support.hearing-loss/browse frm/thread/d9e1a925945dbd66?scoring=d&q=glucegen1+psychogenic&hl=en#

Note: focus on the word "psychogenic" highlighted in blue -- well,
blue when I look at it through my browser.

Kai Schreiber makes an excellent point in http :// en.allexperts,com /q/
Neuroscience-2933/mechanism-behind-psychogenic-coma.htm :

"psychological distress is just a very complex organic problem, that
as of yet we have no way of describing yet."

Quote from http :// www .emedicine,com /emerg/topic112.htm :

"Involvement of the corticofugal inhibitory system has been
suggested."

So the mind is made of brain. Brain is made of physical matter. Hence
the mind is made of physical matter. Those who disagree need an
education.

So keep repeating the hardcore scientifically-proven fact:

The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The
mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind
is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical! The mind is physical! The mind is physical! The mind is
physical!

To suggest otherwise is simply talking from one's kakaa hole.

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

"Radium" <glucegen1@excite,com > wrote in message
news:1171339793.154136.30790@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups,com ...
> On Feb 12, 3:38 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:
>> all of the above have neural-dynamic
>> correlates.
>>
>> Work on seeing that "consciousness"
>> is coupled to biological function.
>>
>> All "intense" experiences alter the
>> neuro-biology, and hence, that
>> which is "perceived" in "consci-
>> ousness".
>
> I totally agree. The mind is part of the body. But try telling that to
> that to "Artis" [artis5@farscape,com ].
>
> At the end of last October I started a topic on psychogenic deafness
> in alt.support.hearing-loss
>
> In that thread, I was stressing that all psychogenic disoders
> ultimately have a physical cause. Most of them, especially Artis,
> showed extreme anger and disagreement to me. Most of them insisted
> that psychogenic disorders are caused by the mind and that the mind is
> a purely non-physical entity seperate from even the brain. What
> morons!
> [...]

So, the thing to do is to give experience.

Because it's that which one experiences
that drives neural activation, that via TD E/I-
minimization, converges upon "understand-
ing".

No experience, no TD E/I-minimization, no
"understanding".

Given 'normal' nervous systems, there are
no "morons" -- just nervous systems that
have been differentially-activated via dif-
fering experiential circumstances.

If you want someone to "understand",
give the experience that allows their
nervous system to converge upon
the "understanding" you wish to
communicate to them.

Failing such, folks just "shout past"
one another in ways that impose
TD E/I(up) 'within' each other's nerv-
ous system -- which is 'just' the opp-
osite of that which enables converg-
ence upon mutually-held "under-
standing" -- which, further, 'blindly'
and automatically =forces= mutual
'moving away from'.

[This is not a "criticism". It's just me,
working at doing what I wrote above.
"TD E/I-minimization" is the only thing
that nervous systems do. Requires
some study to comprehend it, but the
work inherent is worth the energy-ex-
penditure required. Do a groups
Google[tm] [and ignore my 'digres-
sions' and 'talkin'-to-the-wind', which
had their purposes in the contexts of
the discussions when they were
originally posted.]]

ken

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

On Feb 12, 8:10 am, "wallen" <wall...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> i dont think it is posible to experience extreme pain without any sort
> of injury as pain itself is a signal of injury.

Usually, pain is a sign of injury.

> unless the pain is purely psychological, like in the case of
> pain,feeling the amputated limb which is healed by-tadaa!!!! mirrors.

Can this phantom pain cause coma if extreme?

> no injury, no pain. its as simple as that, so i think the RAS theory
> is BS.

Usually, yes. However, there are cases of pain being perceived without
injury. Certain types of seizures can cause false sensations of pain.
I would assume if this pain is intense enough, it could result in coma
by causing complex somatic [i.e. non-autonomic] neurological reactions
within the brain itself.

> by the way, the way you are discussing the link, makes me think you
> authored it. Somehow...,it just fells like so.

Nope. I didn't at all. I just came across that website after googling
"neural shock". What I hate about that site, is that it slows
everything in my PC. Those moving stars take up LOTS of bandwidth.

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

On 2=D4=C213=C8=D5, =C9=CF=CE=E72=CA=B143=B7=D6, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite=
,com > wrote:
> On Feb 12, 8:10 am, "wallen" <wall...@yahoo,com > wrote:
>
> > unless the pain is purely psychological, like in the case of
> > pain,feeling the amputated limb which is healed by-tadaa!!!! mirrors.

> Usually, yes. However, there are cases of pain being perceived without
> injury. Certain types of seizures can cause false sensations of pain.
> I would assume if this pain is intense enough, it could result in coma
> by causing complex somatic [i.e. non-autonomic] neurological reactions
> within the brain itself.

HAHA,
totally agree with you~~~

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

On Feb 13, 2:43 am, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite,com > wrote:
> On Feb 12, 8:10 am, "wallen" <wall...@yahoo,com > wrote:
>
> > i dont think it is posible to experience extreme pain without any sort
> > of injury as pain itself is a signal of injury.
>
> Usually, pain is a sign of injury.
>
> > unless the pain is purely psychological, like in the case of
> > pain,feeling the amputated limb which is healed by-tadaa!!!! mirrors.
>
> Can this phantom pain cause coma if extreme?
>
> > no injury, no pain. its as simple as that, so i think the RAS theory
> > is BS.
>
> Usually, yes. However, there are cases of pain being perceived without
> injury. Certain types of seizures can cause false sensations of pain.
> I would assume if this pain is intense enough, it could result in coma
> by causing complex somatic [i.e. non-autonomic] neurological reactions
> within the brain itself.
>
> > by the way, the way you are discussing the link, makes me think you
> > authored it. Somehow...,it just fells like so.
>
> Nope. I didn't at all. I just came across that website after googling
> "neural shock". What I hate about that site, is that it slows
> everything in my PC. Those moving stars take up LOTS of bandwidth.

the seizure itself is caused other injuries or by miss wired brain
matter. so its still the same boat. the pain was from injury or
damage. Even the psycological pain is from some sort of damage.

Re: Pain vs. Neural Injury

On Feb 13, 5:15 am, wall...@yahoo,com wrote:
> the seizure itself is caused other injuries or by miss wired brain
> matter. so its still the same boat. the pain was from injury or
> damage. Even the psycological pain is from some sort of damage.

Totally agree. The mind is physical and so is the soul. F--k those
idiots who think the mind and soul are non-physical entities seperate
from the brain itself.