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Nociassociation = neurogenic shock caused by the emotional distress the results from excruciating pa
Nociassociation = neurogenic shock caused by the emotional distress the results from excruciating pa
http :// www .mercksource,com /pp/us/cns/cns hl dorlands.jspzQzpgzEzzSzppdocszSzuszSzcommonzSzdorlandszSzdorlandzSzdmd n 09zPzhtm
"nociassociation = the unconscious discharge of nervous energy under
the stimulus of trauma, as in surgical shock."
This means a patient under general anesthesia can still experience
shock as a result of the nociception that results from the physical
injuries that occur during the surgery.
Just because you aren't aware of the pain doesn't mean it isn't
significantly affecting your emotions and autonomic nervous system.
Pain can kill even the the victim doesn't feel it. While may not be
felt consciously, the unconscious still feels it. As a result,
excruciating pain can screw-up the nervous system enough to cause
shock -- and even death -- even if the victim is totally unconscious.
Even during the deepest coma, emotions -- such as fear -- can remain
active, its just that the patient isn't aware of it.
Hence, when a unconscious patient is operated on, the nociception
causes pain. This pain causes tremendous emotional distress. The
emotional distress causes neurogenic shock, even though the patient is
not aware of -- and does not consciously feel -- the distress or the
pain.
These psychoneurophysiological effects of nociception can cause a
potentially-fatal shock reaction even if:
1. There is minimal or no bleeding
2. No infection occurs
3. The patient isn't aware of the pain or emotional distress cause by
the pain
4. There is no injury to any vital organ[s]
This shock is call nociassociation and cannot be prevented even by the
most powerful general anesthetics or sedatives put together.
My point is that inducing unconsciousness might prevent the surgery-
patient from perceiving the suffering caused by his/her injuries but
this does not prevent the subconscious elements of the nervous system
from feeling the agony. The subconscious parts of the nervous system
-- which are concerned with emotions and regulate the
circulatory system -- can still feel the intense emotional suffering
caused by the nociception. The extreme emotional distress caused by
the severe pain results in neurogenic shock. Nociassociative
neurogenic shock is marked by the following extreme changes in the
circulatory system:
1. Force of the heart muscles' contractions decrease significantly
2. Heart rate decreases dramatically.
3. General increase in the heart muscles' relaxability
4. Blood vessels throughout the body widen to total dilation
The above 4 conspire to cause a lethal drop in blood pressure. As a
result, vital organs are deprived of blood leading to multiple-organ-
failure. This can rapidly kill the patient.
This means, the subconscious parts of the nervous system must somehow
be temporarily disconnected from pain perception prior to and during
the surgical operation.
In order for the surgery not to result in a likely-fatal
nociassociation, the patient's entire autonomic nervous system [and
their effectors], limbic system [emotion], his/her heart's natural
pacemaker, smooth muscles, reflexes [all types; including reflexes not
involved with the autonomic nervous system], endocrine and hormonal
systems must be rendered totally unresponsive to the infliction of
even the most excruciating pain and totally unresponsive to any type
of injury.
The best way to do this is to locally-anesthetize all sensory-
receptors and sensory nerves at the site of the operation before the
surgery and make sure they are completely numb throughout the surgery
and for at
least 15 minutes after the surgery is complete. After 15 minutes the
sensory-receptors and sensory nerves at the affected site should be
allowed to *gradually* resume activity. It should take at least an
additional hour for these sensory receptors and nerves to regain
complete "wakefuleness". This will prevent the root-cause of
nociassociation.
Note: nociassociation is one of the major reasons that martial-arts
relies on pain-sensitive areas of the body as targets. This is how a
punch to the solar plexus can kill.
Any questions/comments are welcome
Thanks,
Radium
http :// www .mercksource,com /pp/us/cns/cns hl dorlands.jspzQzpgzEzzSzppdocszSzuszSzcommonzSzdorlandszSzdorlandzSzdmd n 09zPzhtm
"nociassociation = the unconscious discharge of nervous energy under
the stimulus of trauma, as in surgical shock."
This means a patient under general anesthesia can still experience
shock as a result of the nociception that results from the physical
injuries that occur during the surgery.
Just because you aren't aware of the pain doesn't mean it isn't
significantly affecting your emotions and autonomic nervous system.
Pain can kill even the the victim doesn't feel it. While may not be
felt consciously, the unconscious still feels it. As a result,
excruciating pain can screw-up the nervous system enough to cause
shock -- and even death -- even if the victim is totally unconscious.
Even during the deepest coma, emotions -- such as fear -- can remain
active, its just that the patient isn't aware of it.
Hence, when a unconscious patient is operated on, the nociception
causes pain. This pain causes tremendous emotional distress. The
emotional distress causes neurogenic shock, even though the patient is
not aware of -- and does not consciously feel -- the distress or the
pain.
These psychoneurophysiological effects of nociception can cause a
potentially-fatal shock reaction even if:
1. There is minimal or no bleeding
2. No infection occurs
3. The patient isn't aware of the pain or emotional distress cause by
the pain
4. There is no injury to any vital organ[s]
This shock is call nociassociation and cannot be prevented even by the
most powerful general anesthetics or sedatives put together.
My point is that inducing unconsciousness might prevent the surgery-
patient from perceiving the suffering caused by his/her injuries but
this does not prevent the subconscious elements of the nervous system
from feeling the agony. The subconscious parts of the nervous system
-- which are concerned with emotions and regulate the
circulatory system -- can still feel the intense emotional suffering
caused by the nociception. The extreme emotional distress caused by
the severe pain results in neurogenic shock. Nociassociative
neurogenic shock is marked by the following extreme changes in the
circulatory system:
1. Force of the heart muscles' contractions decrease significantly
2. Heart rate decreases dramatically.
3. General increase in the heart muscles' relaxability
4. Blood vessels throughout the body widen to total dilation
The above 4 conspire to cause a lethal drop in blood pressure. As a
result, vital organs are deprived of blood leading to multiple-organ-
failure. This can rapidly kill the patient.
This means, the subconscious parts of the nervous system must somehow
be temporarily disconnected from pain perception prior to and during
the surgical operation.
In order for the surgery not to result in a likely-fatal
nociassociation, the patient's entire autonomic nervous system [and
their effectors], limbic system [emotion], his/her heart's natural
pacemaker, smooth muscles, reflexes [all types; including reflexes not
involved with the autonomic nervous system], endocrine and hormonal
systems must be rendered totally unresponsive to the infliction of
even the most excruciating pain and totally unresponsive to any type
of injury.
The best way to do this is to locally-anesthetize all sensory-
receptors and sensory nerves at the site of the operation before the
surgery and make sure they are completely numb throughout the surgery
and for at
least 15 minutes after the surgery is complete. After 15 minutes the
sensory-receptors and sensory nerves at the affected site should be
allowed to *gradually* resume activity. It should take at least an
additional hour for these sensory receptors and nerves to regain
complete "wakefuleness". This will prevent the root-cause of
nociassociation.
Note: nociassociation is one of the major reasons that martial-arts
relies on pain-sensitive areas of the body as targets. This is how a
punch to the solar plexus can kill.
Any questions/comments are welcome
Thanks,
Radium
Re: Nociassociation = neurogenic shock caused by the emotional distress the results from excruciatin
Dear Radium,
How is it they can detect this in deep coma victims? I may be barking up the
wrong tree, but are you suggesting that if there is no brain activity as in
a flat EEG, that feelings and emotions are still taking place? I would be
concerned about this in cases where a loved one is pulled off life support
with a flat EEG. This one could have many of us (myself included) second
guessing exactly what the definition of humane treatment and death with
dignity really mean. I'm curious where you draw the line on when the plug
should be pulled. I meant it's obvious in situations with years of agony
awaiting one, as to what and when the right choice would be.
I don't know what kind of feedback you been getting but I find this pretty
interesting. Though some may be a bit over my head, a surgeon is a moron for
not using a local just because a general's being used. That's the best time
and place they can have to numb the entire area they're working on and I'm
sure most bill for it and it rarely gets done. That could be the key to
unlocking "intractable pain" post operatively. If the patient retains a
subconscious memory of the surgical experience, it could very well just be
in a patient's mind, but it's too late then, it should have been fixed
before the carving began.
Even if it has me second guessing some important decisions in my life, this
is some very interesting stuff.
Have a painless day--og
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite,com > wrote in message
news:1171261758.742707.284130@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
> http :// www .mercksource,com /pp/us/cns/cns_hl_dorlands.jspzQzpgzEzzSzppdocszSzuszSzcommonzSzdorlandszSzdorlandzSzdmd_n_09zPzhtm
>
> "nociassociation = the unconscious discharge of nervous energy under
> the stimulus of trauma, as in surgical shock."
>
> This means a patient under general anesthesia can still experience
> shock as a result of the nociception that results from the physical
> injuries that occur during the surgery.
>
> Just because you aren't aware of the pain doesn't mean it isn't
> significantly affecting your emotions and autonomic nervous system.
>
> Pain can kill even the the victim doesn't feel it. While may not be
> felt consciously, the unconscious still feels it. As a result,
> excruciating pain can screw-up the nervous system enough to cause
> shock -- and even death -- even if the victim is totally unconscious.
>
> Even during the deepest coma, emotions -- such as fear -- can remain
> active, its just that the patient isn't aware of it.
>
> Hence, when a unconscious patient is operated on, the nociception
> causes pain. This pain causes tremendous emotional distress. The
> emotional distress causes neurogenic shock, even though the patient is
> not aware of -- and does not consciously feel -- the distress or the
> pain.
>
> These psychoneurophysiological effects of nociception can cause a
> potentially-fatal shock reaction even if:
> 1. There is minimal or no bleeding
> 2. No infection occurs
> 3. The patient isn't aware of the pain or emotional distress cause by
> the pain
> 4. There is no injury to any vital organ[s]
>
> This shock is call nociassociation and cannot be prevented even by the
> most powerful general anesthetics or sedatives put together.
>
> My point is that inducing unconsciousness might prevent the surgery-
> patient from perceiving the suffering caused by his/her injuries but
> this does not prevent the subconscious elements of the nervous system
> from feeling the agony. The subconscious parts of the nervous system
> -- which are concerned with emotions and regulate the
> circulatory system -- can still feel the intense emotional suffering
> caused by the nociception. The extreme emotional distress caused by
> the severe pain results in neurogenic shock. Nociassociative
> neurogenic shock is marked by the following extreme changes in the
> circulatory system:
>
> 1. Force of the heart muscles' contractions decrease significantly
> 2. Heart rate decreases dramatically.
> 3. General increase in the heart muscles' relaxability
> 4. Blood vessels throughout the body widen to total dilation
>
> The above 4 conspire to cause a lethal drop in blood pressure. As a
> result, vital organs are deprived of blood leading to multiple-organ-
> failure. This can rapidly kill the patient.
>
> This means, the subconscious parts of the nervous system must somehow
> be temporarily disconnected from pain perception prior to and during
> the surgical operation.
>
> In order for the surgery not to result in a likely-fatal
> nociassociation, the patient's entire autonomic nervous system [and
> their effectors], limbic system [emotion], his/her heart's natural
> pacemaker, smooth muscles, reflexes [all types; including reflexes not
> involved with the autonomic nervous system], endocrine and hormonal
> systems must be rendered totally unresponsive to the infliction of
> even the most excruciating pain and totally unresponsive to any type
> of injury.
>
> The best way to do this is to locally-anesthetize all sensory-
> receptors and sensory nerves at the site of the operation before the
> surgery and make sure they are completely numb throughout the surgery
> and for at
> least 15 minutes after the surgery is complete. After 15 minutes the
> sensory-receptors and sensory nerves at the affected site should be
> allowed to *gradually* resume activity. It should take at least an
> additional hour for these sensory receptors and nerves to regain
> complete "wakefuleness". This will prevent the root-cause of
> nociassociation.
>
> Note: nociassociation is one of the major reasons that martial-arts
> relies on pain-sensitive areas of the body as targets. This is how a
> punch to the solar plexus can kill.
>
> Any questions/comments are welcome
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium
>
Dear Radium,
How is it they can detect this in deep coma victims? I may be barking up the
wrong tree, but are you suggesting that if there is no brain activity as in
a flat EEG, that feelings and emotions are still taking place? I would be
concerned about this in cases where a loved one is pulled off life support
with a flat EEG. This one could have many of us (myself included) second
guessing exactly what the definition of humane treatment and death with
dignity really mean. I'm curious where you draw the line on when the plug
should be pulled. I meant it's obvious in situations with years of agony
awaiting one, as to what and when the right choice would be.
I don't know what kind of feedback you been getting but I find this pretty
interesting. Though some may be a bit over my head, a surgeon is a moron for
not using a local just because a general's being used. That's the best time
and place they can have to numb the entire area they're working on and I'm
sure most bill for it and it rarely gets done. That could be the key to
unlocking "intractable pain" post operatively. If the patient retains a
subconscious memory of the surgical experience, it could very well just be
in a patient's mind, but it's too late then, it should have been fixed
before the carving began.
Even if it has me second guessing some important decisions in my life, this
is some very interesting stuff.
Have a painless day--og
"Radium" <glucegen1@excite,com > wrote in message
news:1171261758.742707.284130@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
> http :// www .mercksource,com /pp/us/cns/cns_hl_dorlands.jspzQzpgzEzzSzppdocszSzuszSzcommonzSzdorlandszSzdorlandzSzdmd_n_09zPzhtm
>
> "nociassociation = the unconscious discharge of nervous energy under
> the stimulus of trauma, as in surgical shock."
>
> This means a patient under general anesthesia can still experience
> shock as a result of the nociception that results from the physical
> injuries that occur during the surgery.
>
> Just because you aren't aware of the pain doesn't mean it isn't
> significantly affecting your emotions and autonomic nervous system.
>
> Pain can kill even the the victim doesn't feel it. While may not be
> felt consciously, the unconscious still feels it. As a result,
> excruciating pain can screw-up the nervous system enough to cause
> shock -- and even death -- even if the victim is totally unconscious.
>
> Even during the deepest coma, emotions -- such as fear -- can remain
> active, its just that the patient isn't aware of it.
>
> Hence, when a unconscious patient is operated on, the nociception
> causes pain. This pain causes tremendous emotional distress. The
> emotional distress causes neurogenic shock, even though the patient is
> not aware of -- and does not consciously feel -- the distress or the
> pain.
>
> These psychoneurophysiological effects of nociception can cause a
> potentially-fatal shock reaction even if:
> 1. There is minimal or no bleeding
> 2. No infection occurs
> 3. The patient isn't aware of the pain or emotional distress cause by
> the pain
> 4. There is no injury to any vital organ[s]
>
> This shock is call nociassociation and cannot be prevented even by the
> most powerful general anesthetics or sedatives put together.
>
> My point is that inducing unconsciousness might prevent the surgery-
> patient from perceiving the suffering caused by his/her injuries but
> this does not prevent the subconscious elements of the nervous system
> from feeling the agony. The subconscious parts of the nervous system
> -- which are concerned with emotions and regulate the
> circulatory system -- can still feel the intense emotional suffering
> caused by the nociception. The extreme emotional distress caused by
> the severe pain results in neurogenic shock. Nociassociative
> neurogenic shock is marked by the following extreme changes in the
> circulatory system:
>
> 1. Force of the heart muscles' contractions decrease significantly
> 2. Heart rate decreases dramatically.
> 3. General increase in the heart muscles' relaxability
> 4. Blood vessels throughout the body widen to total dilation
>
> The above 4 conspire to cause a lethal drop in blood pressure. As a
> result, vital organs are deprived of blood leading to multiple-organ-
> failure. This can rapidly kill the patient.
>
> This means, the subconscious parts of the nervous system must somehow
> be temporarily disconnected from pain perception prior to and during
> the surgical operation.
>
> In order for the surgery not to result in a likely-fatal
> nociassociation, the patient's entire autonomic nervous system [and
> their effectors], limbic system [emotion], his/her heart's natural
> pacemaker, smooth muscles, reflexes [all types; including reflexes not
> involved with the autonomic nervous system], endocrine and hormonal
> systems must be rendered totally unresponsive to the infliction of
> even the most excruciating pain and totally unresponsive to any type
> of injury.
>
> The best way to do this is to locally-anesthetize all sensory-
> receptors and sensory nerves at the site of the operation before the
> surgery and make sure they are completely numb throughout the surgery
> and for at
> least 15 minutes after the surgery is complete. After 15 minutes the
> sensory-receptors and sensory nerves at the affected site should be
> allowed to *gradually* resume activity. It should take at least an
> additional hour for these sensory receptors and nerves to regain
> complete "wakefuleness". This will prevent the root-cause of
> nociassociation.
>
> Note: nociassociation is one of the major reasons that martial-arts
> relies on pain-sensitive areas of the body as targets. This is how a
> punch to the solar plexus can kill.
>
> Any questions/comments are welcome
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium
>
Re: Nociassociation = neurogenic shock caused by the emotional distress the results from excruciatin
pain is useful, isn't it?
without pain in a surgery, the patient could be killed....pain is the
proper warning.
pain is useful, isn't it?
without pain in a surgery, the patient could be killed....pain is the
proper warning.
Re: Nociassociation = neurogenic shock caused by the emotional distress the results from excruciatin
On Feb 12, 10:56 am, "OldGoat" <oldgoatm...@ERdocsuckyahoo,com > wrote:
> How is it they can detect this in deep coma victims?
Painful stimuli cause firing within the limbic system even without
consciousness.
> I may be barking up the
> wrong tree, but are you suggesting that if there is no brain activity as in
> a flat EEG, that feelings and emotions are still taking place? I would be
> concerned about this in cases where a loved one is pulled off life support
> with a flat EEG.
Well, if the limbic system is still alive and active, then yes, there
is emotion and feeling. However, in an individual who is a deep coma,
the emotions and feeling are not consciously perceived.
> This one could have many of us (myself included) second
> guessing exactly what the definition of humane treatment and death with
> dignity really mean.
Well, many would think that if the suffering is not consciously
perceived by the individual, that the actions are humane. This is not
necessarily so.
The level of consciousness of an individual does not change the
receptiveness of his/her limbic system to any stimuli.
> I'm curious where you draw the line on when the plug
> should be pulled. I meant it's obvious in situations with years of agony
> awaiting one, as to what and when the right choice would be.
Yes, this is a very difficult question to answer.
> I don't know what kind of feedback you been getting but I find this pretty
> interesting. Though some may be a bit over my head, a surgeon is a moron for
> not using a local just because a general's being used. That's the best time
> and place they can have to numb the entire area they're working on and I'm
> sure most bill for it and it rarely gets done. That could be the key to
> unlocking "intractable pain" post operatively. If the patient retains a
> subconscious memory of the surgical experience, it could very well just be
> in a patient's mind, but it's too late then, it should have been fixed
> before the carving began.
> Even if it has me second guessing some important decisions in my life, this
> is some very interesting stuff.
What needs to be understood is that just because painful experiences
are not consciously perceived does not mean they don't damage the
brain. As you say, there is subconscious memory of events perceived
during unconsciousness. A victim of psychological suffering will
suffer an equal amount of emotional trauma whether conscious or
unconscious during the event that injured the victim's psyche.
Patients who are molested or raped by their doctors during the coma
[induced by general anesthesia] tend to behave *very* differently
after the event whether they find out about the abuse or not. The
patient's subconscious psyche "knows" that something is wrong, even
though he/she does not consciously realize what happened during the
anesthesia. When these abuse victims look at their doctors during the
next appointments, there are visceral signs of stress on them. These
victims' limbic systems are able to receive info from unconscious
memories of horrible events that took place during the surgery. Hence
the limbic system signals an unusual amount of autonomic stress
reactions [such sweating, quivering, increased tear production and
muscular weakness] and no one -- other than the guilty doctors -- know
why the patients are exhibiting signs of distress. Even the victims
themselves don't understand their reactions to the doctors' faces --
that is unless and until they find out what really happened to them
while they were unconscious.
On Feb 12, 10:56 am, "OldGoat" <oldgoatm...@ERdocsuckyahoo,com > wrote:
> How is it they can detect this in deep coma victims?
Painful stimuli cause firing within the limbic system even without
consciousness.
> I may be barking up the
> wrong tree, but are you suggesting that if there is no brain activity as in
> a flat EEG, that feelings and emotions are still taking place? I would be
> concerned about this in cases where a loved one is pulled off life support
> with a flat EEG.
Well, if the limbic system is still alive and active, then yes, there
is emotion and feeling. However, in an individual who is a deep coma,
the emotions and feeling are not consciously perceived.
> This one could have many of us (myself included) second
> guessing exactly what the definition of humane treatment and death with
> dignity really mean.
Well, many would think that if the suffering is not consciously
perceived by the individual, that the actions are humane. This is not
necessarily so.
The level of consciousness of an individual does not change the
receptiveness of his/her limbic system to any stimuli.
> I'm curious where you draw the line on when the plug
> should be pulled. I meant it's obvious in situations with years of agony
> awaiting one, as to what and when the right choice would be.
Yes, this is a very difficult question to answer.
> I don't know what kind of feedback you been getting but I find this pretty
> interesting. Though some may be a bit over my head, a surgeon is a moron for
> not using a local just because a general's being used. That's the best time
> and place they can have to numb the entire area they're working on and I'm
> sure most bill for it and it rarely gets done. That could be the key to
> unlocking "intractable pain" post operatively. If the patient retains a
> subconscious memory of the surgical experience, it could very well just be
> in a patient's mind, but it's too late then, it should have been fixed
> before the carving began.
> Even if it has me second guessing some important decisions in my life, this
> is some very interesting stuff.
What needs to be understood is that just because painful experiences
are not consciously perceived does not mean they don't damage the
brain. As you say, there is subconscious memory of events perceived
during unconsciousness. A victim of psychological suffering will
suffer an equal amount of emotional trauma whether conscious or
unconscious during the event that injured the victim's psyche.
Patients who are molested or raped by their doctors during the coma
[induced by general anesthesia] tend to behave *very* differently
after the event whether they find out about the abuse or not. The
patient's subconscious psyche "knows" that something is wrong, even
though he/she does not consciously realize what happened during the
anesthesia. When these abuse victims look at their doctors during the
next appointments, there are visceral signs of stress on them. These
victims' limbic systems are able to receive info from unconscious
memories of horrible events that took place during the surgery. Hence
the limbic system signals an unusual amount of autonomic stress
reactions [such sweating, quivering, increased tear production and
muscular weakness] and no one -- other than the guilty doctors -- know
why the patients are exhibiting signs of distress. Even the victims
themselves don't understand their reactions to the doctors' faces --
that is unless and until they find out what really happened to them
while they were unconscious.
Re: Nociassociation = neurogenic shock caused by the emotional distress the results from excruciatin
On 2=D4=C213=C8=D5, =C9=CF=CE=E711=CA=B104=B7=D6, "Radium" <gluceg...@excit=
e=2Ecom> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 10:56 am, "OldGoat" <oldgoatm...@ERdocsuckyahoo,com > wrote:
>
> > How is it they can detect this in deep coma victims?
>
> Painful stimuli cause firing within the limbic system even without
> consciousness.
>
> > I may be barking up the
> > wrong tree, but are you suggesting that if there is no brain activity a=
s in
> > a flat EEG, that feelings and emotions are still taking place? I would =
be
> > concerned about this in cases where a loved one is pulled off life supp=
ort
> > with a flat EEG.
>
> Well, if the limbic system is still alive and active, then yes, there
> is emotion and feeling. However, in an individual who is a deep coma,
> the emotions and feeling are not consciously perceived.
>
> > This one could have many of us (myself included) second
> > guessing exactly what the definition of humane treatment and death with
> > dignity really mean.
>
> Well, many would think that if the suffering is not consciously
> perceived by the individual, that the actions are humane. This is not
> necessarily so.
>
> The level of consciousness of an individual does not change the
> receptiveness of his/her limbic system to any stimuli.
>
> > I'm curious where you draw the line on when the plug
> > should be pulled. I meant it's obvious in situations with years of agony
> > awaiting one, as to what and when the right choice would be.
>
> Yes, this is a very difficult question to answer.
>
> > I don't know what kind of feedback you been getting but I find this pre=
tty
> > interesting. Though some may be a bit over my head, a surgeon is a moro=
n for
> > not using a local just because a general's being used. That's the best =
time
> > and place they can have to numb the entire area they're working on and =
I'm
> > sure most bill for it and it rarely gets done. That could be the key to
> > unlocking "intractable pain" post operatively. If the patient retains a
> > subconscious memory of the surgical experience, it could very well just=
be
> > in a patient's mind, but it's too late then, it should have been fixed
> > before the carving began.
> > Even if it has me second guessing some important decisions in my life, =
this
> > is some very interesting stuff.
>
> What needs to be understood is that just because painful experiences
> are not consciously perceived does not mean they don't damage the
> brain. As you say, there is subconscious memory of events perceived
> during unconsciousness. A victim of psychological suffering will
> suffer an equal amount of emotional trauma whether conscious or
> unconscious during the event that injured the victim's psyche.
> Patients who are molested or raped by their doctors during the coma
> [induced by general anesthesia] tend to behave *very* differently
> after the event whether they find out about the abuse or not. The
> patient's subconscious psyche "knows" that something is wrong, even
> though he/she does not consciously realize what happened during the
> anesthesia. When these abuse victims look at their doctors during the
> next appointments, there are visceral signs of stress on them. These
> victims' limbic systems are able to receive info from unconscious
> memories of horrible events that took place during the surgery. Hence
> the limbic system signals an unusual amount of autonomic stress
> reactions [such sweating, quivering, increased tear production and
> muscular weakness] and no one -- other than the guilty doctors -- know
> why the patients are exhibiting signs of distress. Even the victims
> themselves don't understand their reactions to the doctors' faces --
> that is unless and until they find out what really happened to them
> while they were unconscious.
good point
On 2=D4=C213=C8=D5, =C9=CF=CE=E711=CA=B104=B7=D6, "Radium" <gluceg...@excit=
e=2Ecom> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 10:56 am, "OldGoat" <oldgoatm...@ERdocsuckyahoo,com > wrote:
>
> > How is it they can detect this in deep coma victims?
>
> Painful stimuli cause firing within the limbic system even without
> consciousness.
>
> > I may be barking up the
> > wrong tree, but are you suggesting that if there is no brain activity a=
s in
> > a flat EEG, that feelings and emotions are still taking place? I would =
be
> > concerned about this in cases where a loved one is pulled off life supp=
ort
> > with a flat EEG.
>
> Well, if the limbic system is still alive and active, then yes, there
> is emotion and feeling. However, in an individual who is a deep coma,
> the emotions and feeling are not consciously perceived.
>
> > This one could have many of us (myself included) second
> > guessing exactly what the definition of humane treatment and death with
> > dignity really mean.
>
> Well, many would think that if the suffering is not consciously
> perceived by the individual, that the actions are humane. This is not
> necessarily so.
>
> The level of consciousness of an individual does not change the
> receptiveness of his/her limbic system to any stimuli.
>
> > I'm curious where you draw the line on when the plug
> > should be pulled. I meant it's obvious in situations with years of agony
> > awaiting one, as to what and when the right choice would be.
>
> Yes, this is a very difficult question to answer.
>
> > I don't know what kind of feedback you been getting but I find this pre=
tty
> > interesting. Though some may be a bit over my head, a surgeon is a moro=
n for
> > not using a local just because a general's being used. That's the best =
time
> > and place they can have to numb the entire area they're working on and =
I'm
> > sure most bill for it and it rarely gets done. That could be the key to
> > unlocking "intractable pain" post operatively. If the patient retains a
> > subconscious memory of the surgical experience, it could very well just=
be
> > in a patient's mind, but it's too late then, it should have been fixed
> > before the carving began.
> > Even if it has me second guessing some important decisions in my life, =
this
> > is some very interesting stuff.
>
> What needs to be understood is that just because painful experiences
> are not consciously perceived does not mean they don't damage the
> brain. As you say, there is subconscious memory of events perceived
> during unconsciousness. A victim of psychological suffering will
> suffer an equal amount of emotional trauma whether conscious or
> unconscious during the event that injured the victim's psyche.
> Patients who are molested or raped by their doctors during the coma
> [induced by general anesthesia] tend to behave *very* differently
> after the event whether they find out about the abuse or not. The
> patient's subconscious psyche "knows" that something is wrong, even
> though he/she does not consciously realize what happened during the
> anesthesia. When these abuse victims look at their doctors during the
> next appointments, there are visceral signs of stress on them. These
> victims' limbic systems are able to receive info from unconscious
> memories of horrible events that took place during the surgery. Hence
> the limbic system signals an unusual amount of autonomic stress
> reactions [such sweating, quivering, increased tear production and
> muscular weakness] and no one -- other than the guilty doctors -- know
> why the patients are exhibiting signs of distress. Even the victims
> themselves don't understand their reactions to the doctors' faces --
> that is unless and until they find out what really happened to them
> while they were unconscious.
good point
