Pain-induced coma resulting from alteration of RAS. Real Science or Myth?

Re: Pain-induced coma resulting from alteration of RAS. Real Science or Myth?

On Feb 9, 11:22 am, Notan <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote:
> I retract my earlier response and substitute:
>
> Sorry, but your repeated insistence, that *someone* respond with the
> correct answer(s), is becoming *VERY* humorous.

Stop trivializing serious question you sick f--k!

Re: Pain-induced coma resulting from alteration of RAS. Real Science or Myth?

Radium wrote:
> On Feb 9, 11:22 am, Notan <notan@ddressthatcanbespammed> wrote:
>> I retract my earlier response and substitute:
>>
>> Sorry, but your repeated insistence, that *someone* respond with the
>> correct answer(s), is becoming *VERY* humorous.
>
> Stop trivializing serious question you sick f--k!

And just when I was going to provide the answer.

PLONK!

--
Notan

Re: Pain-induced coma resulting from alteration of RAS. Real Science or Myth?

On Feb 9, 10:55 am, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite,com > wrote:
> On Feb 8, 7:31 pm, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite,com > wrote:
>
> > On Feb 7, 9:19 am, "Chas" <chascleme...@comcast,net > wrote:
>
> > > There aren't any 'scientific' answers- witness the long threads about
> > > 'point-knockouts' and such.
> > > The best scientific analysis boils down to; deliberate fraud, mass
> > > hallucinations, individual gullibility, and ignorant superstition.
>
> > Um, last time I checked, the reticular formation was not fake.
>
> Well?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!
>
> WTF is no one answering my serious scientific no-nonsense
> questions?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
>
> I posted only to relevant
> groups!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> What is the mechanism by which pain causes the RAS to shut-off
> consciousness???????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
>
> It sure as f--k is not vasovagal syncope!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Quote for http :// www .internetarmory,com /self defense.htm:
>
> "It is speculated that various organs of the body can send pain
> impulses to the brain stem indicating a severe or overwhelming bodily
> injury. The reticular activating system responds by producing a
> functional "shut down", which results in loss of consciousness within
> a second or two."
>
> According to the above information on that martial arts website,
> severe pain can directly cause coma by shutting off the RAS. This
> means that even if the link between pain and autonomic functions were
> broken, excruciating pain would still cause the victim to lose
> consciousness -- without syncope or any decrease perfusion of blood to
> the brain. IOW, there is a direct, purely-neurological, non-cardiac,
> non-circulatory, non-vascular, non-respiratory, non-autonomic, non-
> endocrine, non-hormonal mechanism in which extreme agony rapidly leads
> to coma. Just what is this mysterious mechanism?? Seriously?!
>
> Sorry for my harshness but you all probably understand my extreme
> extreme interest in this subject. I've been trying deathly hard to
> find answers to my own questions doing my own research but I've found
> *nothing*!

Well, I am still
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiting for a
rational, logical, scientific answer to my ever-serious, extremely
interesting
question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Pain-induced coma resulting from alteration of RAS. Real Science or Myth?

Radium wrote:
> On Feb 7, 7:28 am, pboud <pboud 01NOSPA...@hotmail,com > wrote:
>> 2.4, 2.5.. Mainly based on the persistence levels..
>>
>> You should familiarize yourself with the Minimum Trolling Standards we
>> have here on RMA..
>
> I don't troll or spam. I am simply asking scientific questions. Please
> respond with reasonable answers. I know much question are eccentric,
> but as I said, I am interested in wierd and rare scientific
> phenomenon. So please resist the temptation to trivializer -- or joke
> about -- my ever-serious questions.

Sorry, but your repeated insistence, that *someone* respond with the
correct answer(s), is becoming somewhat humorous.

Might I suggest you try elsewhere...

Maybe a local med school or university.

--
Notan

Re: Pain-induced coma resulting from alteration of RAS. Real Science or Myth?

On Feb 8, 3:09 am, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite,com > wrote:
> On Feb 7, 7:28 am, pboud <pboud 01NOSPA...@hotmail,com > wrote:
>
> > 2.4, 2.5.. Mainly based on the persistence levels..
>
> > You should familiarize yourself with the Minimum Trolling Standards we
> > have here on RMA..
>
> I don't troll or spam. I am simply asking scientific questions. Please
> respond with reasonable answers. I know much question are eccentric,
> but as I said, I am interested in wierd and rare scientific
> phenomenon. So please resist the temptation to trivializer -- or joke
> about -- my ever-serious questions.

Radium,

There are a gazillion mysteries in biology. For example, most if not
all pain will involve immunological activity so forget that assumption
that the same will not exist. What are pain killers? Anti
inflammatories, targeting cox 2, a key enzyme in immunological
processes.

Do not think that just because we label these so called "systems" that
they are independent of each other. They rarely are.

If you are looking for a scientific approach then why are you relying
on a martial arts website for information? Always check out
assumptions.

I suspect that people are not responding to your questions because:

No-one knows.
Some are thinking: lazy bastard, can't he learn anything for himself?
You are asking questions that indicate a certain lack of insight into
just how difficult these problems are. That is, you need to do a lot
of learning and then you might start realising that many of your
questions are currently beyond our ability to answer.

So then, your first stop should be to learn about the RAS. For
example, did you know that the RAS alone can mediate quite complex
behaviors? It is not just a "relay station" but a part of our brains
that can initiate all sorts of behavior independently of the rest of
the CNS. Did you know that RAS efferents from the forebrain typically
target inhibitory neurons in the RAS? If you can't be bothered to
learn such basic information, and in some way demonstrate that you
have made such an effort, why on earth do you expect anyone to help
you out?

Re: Pain-induced coma resulting from alteration of RAS. Real Science or Myth?

Radium,

Your martial arts website is probably full of shit. And by probably, I
mean "Why on God's green earth would you take the word of an
amateurish martial arts website as fact when considering a
neurological question?" I don't ask my doctor how to fix my car, so
don't ask your sensei how the "touch of death" works on the brain.

The theory of the "ascending reticular activating system" has been
around since the 1940s. It was thought that this system, working
mostly on acetylcholine, projected to most parts of the brain and kept
them "awake," or under a sufficient quantity of activation that
consciousness was maintained. It also has activity during REM sleep,
but is relatively silent during slow-wave sleep. Problems: 1) not all
of our anaesthetics work on acetylcholine, or necessarily the RAS; 2)
no one has ever shown defintively what the ARAS consists of and which
subdivisions, if any, are involved in maintaining a conscious state;
and 3) the ARAS isn't the only theory of a brain mechanism maintaining
consciousness. These problems pale in comparison to the simple one
that there doesn't seem to be any evidence between peripheral pain
signaling and ARAS inhibition.

Dude, there are "real" scientists that are part of these newsgroups. I
do a PhD in Neurological Science. But we're not here at your beck and
call. I like to talk on the groups when I have some spare time, and
(much more importantly) when something is interesting. Just because
you've put out some ill-considered question doesn't mean a gaggle of
scientists should immediately come running, falling over themselves to
answer your un-answerable question. A better question for you to ask
is "Does evidence exist that peripheral pain modulates ARAS activity?"
That question actually has an answer. Coming here and demanding,
rudely and repeatedly, advice from "a real scientist" when you have
tripped over some bullshit pseudoscience on some rookie html
programmer's martial arts website is not cool or interesting. You
might find that there's another reason people aren't answering your
posts: they think you're a dick.

On Feb 12, 8:10 am, "John H." <j hasen...@yahoo,com .au> wrote:
> On Feb 8, 3:09 am, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite,com > wrote:
>
> > On Feb 7, 7:28 am, pboud <pboud 01NOSPA...@hotmail,com > wrote:
>
> > > 2.4, 2.5.. Mainly based on the persistence levels..
>
> > > You should familiarize yourself with the Minimum Trolling Standards we
> > > have here on RMA..
>
> > I don't troll or spam. I am simply asking scientific questions. Please
> > respond with reasonable answers. I know much question are eccentric,
> > but as I said, I am interested in wierd and rare scientific
> > phenomenon. So please resist the temptation to trivializer -- or joke
> > about -- my ever-serious questions.
>
> Radium,
>
> There are a gazillion mysteries in biology. For example, most if not
> all pain will involve immunological activity so forget that assumption
> that the same will not exist. What are pain killers? Anti
> inflammatories, targeting cox 2, a key enzyme in immunological
> processes.
>
> Do not think that just because we label these so called "systems" that
> they are independent of each other. They rarely are.
>
> If you are looking for a scientific approach then why are you relying
> on a martial arts website for information? Always check out
> assumptions.
>
> I suspect that people are not responding to your questions because:
>
> No-one knows.
> Some are thinking: lazy bastard, can't he learn anything for himself?
> You are asking questions that indicate a certain lack of insight into
> just how difficult these problems are. That is, you need to do a lot
> of learning and then you might start realising that many of your
> questions are currently beyond our ability to answer.
>
> So then, your first stop should be to learn about the RAS. For
> example, did you know that the RAS alone can mediate quite complex
> behaviors? It is not just a "relay station" but a part of our brains
> that can initiate all sorts of behavior independently of the rest of
> the CNS. Did you know that RAS efferents from the forebrain typically
> target inhibitory neurons in the RAS? If you can't be bothered to
> learn such basic information, and in some way demonstrate that you
> have made such an effort, why on earth do you expect anyone to help
> you out?

Re: Pain-induced coma resulting from alteration of RAS. Real Science or Myth?

Preface: I tried to post this msg with
the diagram ref-ed in it "attached".

Seems the post was 'blocked'. kpc

"John H." <j_hasenkam@yahoo,com .au> wrote in message
news:1171285815.783869.116640@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
> On Feb 8, 3:09 am, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite,com > wrote:
>> On Feb 7, 7:28 am, pboud <pboud_01NOSPA...@hotmail,com > wrote:
>> [...]

> I suspect that people are not responding to your questions because:
>
> No-one knows.

[The gist of what's in my lengthy
post, below: "motivation's" sub-
strate is distributed =throughout=
nervous systems.]

Thank you, John, for, once again,
presenting Opportunity for dis-
cussion.

Someone else has also written,
elsewhere, about folks "not knowing".

I tried to find that post, but didn't come-
across it. I experienced it as also pre-
senting-Opportunity for discussion.
So my Gratitude is to that Poster, too.

There is only a little-bit of 'Difficult'
stuff that 'must' be said, so I'll dis-
pense with that first.

The only 'reason' that "motivation"
has been 'presumed' to be "myst-
erious" derives in the ways that ex-
perimenters in Neuroscience have
been coerced, intergenerationally,
Professor to Student, into the 'pre-
sumption' that they 'must' seek to
explain "motivation" via Neuro-
chemical approaches.

As I've recently reiterated in another
thread stated by John H., be-cause
of the dynamics of "functional multi-
plexing", a Neurochemical 'approach'
is flat-out Impossible. The Neuro-
chemicals are as they are, not with
respect to systematic-functionality,
but with respect to actualizing sys-
tematic-functionality. The difference
is subtle but =Huge= be-cause
Neurochemistry is not locus-exclus-
ive.

So folks've been "barking up the wrong
tree", 'wondering' why they can't see
the 'squirrel' which is just not in 'where'
they've been looking.

[The 'Difficult' stuff, inherent, is that
Students have entered-into the a-
bove stuff, =Innocent=, only to be
coerced into 'having to' accept join-
ing-into "barking up the wrong tree".

It's a sorrow that, itself, reduces dir-
ectly to 'blindly'-automated TD E/I-
minimization, left-uncomprehended,
in which Educational Professionals
have acted as agents of 'the beast',
coercing their Students to accept
whatever it is that has merely been
formerly experienced as 'being-accept-
able'.

I'm =not= 'criticizing' Academicians,
because, after all, all Academicians
were once, themselves, =Innocent=
Students, coerced by their generation
of Professors.

The 'Difficult' stuff is always like this,
the only thing in-it being "construct-
ed" upon the nothingness of mere-
ly self-perpetuating TD E/I-minimiza-
tion.

There's Huge Sorrow in-it, though.

Folks literally being coerced into
abdicating their abilities to Think.

Always takes my breath away.

That's it for the 'Difficult' stuff.]

"Motivation" is distributed through-
out the global system [in AoK, the
"supersystem"; system-of-systems],
as is virtually every other functional
capability of nervous systems.

To see the substrate for "motivation",
one must work within the =entire=
Neuroanatomy, mapping "direction-
ality" in ways that simultaneously
cross-correlate it with behavior.

Everything that's necessary has
been in AoK, and the refs cited in
AoK, all along. I included refs to
super-Excellent experimental re-
sults in an effort to assist folks'
seeing. My favorite one of these
was cited in footnote #24 in the
paper version of AoK, Ap3. I in-
cluded a copy of the super-Ex-
cellent diagram in that version
[and I've decided that it's so Im-
portant that I 'have to' break NG-
posting 'rules' to attach a copy
of this super-Excellent diagram
to this post.]

Footnote #24 is the fifth-from-
the-last "jump-button in the elec-
tronic version of AoK, which, I'm
Sorry, I'm not running on my Inet
PC at this 'time', so I can't provide
the "jump" text.

Footnote #24 introduces, and
compactly sufficiently discusses,
"ramp architecture".

Here is the citation text, for the
ref I'm discussing here, as it
appears in the footnote:

"(For an excellent diagram of
one sort of 'ramp architecture'
that exists within the septal area,
see, 'The Septo-hippocampal
System: Significance of the Sub-
iculum", by R. B. Chronister, R.
W. Sikes, and L. E. White, Jr., in
=The Septal Nuclei=, Wayne State
University, 1974), (p. 123). It was
this diagram, and its associated
article, which precipitated the
development of the larger con-
cept of global 'ramp architecture'
and initiated my analysis of its in-
formation processing usefulness.
This article was alwo one which
drove home my understanding of
the way in which the CNS is =perm-
eated= by a rigorous 'columnar'
organization.)"

Although my discussion in this
post will focus upon "ramp arch-
itecture", I encourage folks who
have it to reread all of AoK, Ap3.
[All of it is necessary for a basic
comprehension of how and why
"motivation's" substrate is dis-
tributed throughout the global
system.

Please see the annotation I
added to the diagram.

Enough said?

Such stuff occurs =everywhere=
within nervous systems. The
task that faces a Neuroscientist
consists in 'walking' the gradients,
which =always= point directly to
TD E/I-minimization.

Understand?

I'll give an 'abstract' example. [It's
so much worthwhile at a chaulk-
board -- tracing the gradients, and
their pointing directly to TD E/I-min-
imization, with colored chaulk :-]

You find yourself at the center of
a 'maze' that, rather than having
well-defined [if deliberately-'con-
founding'] "paths", is comprised
of a densely-packed 'forrest' of
"rubber-branched" 'trees'. In this
'maze' there's no way of using
vision to find your way out of the
'maze' because the "rubber
branches" are so densely-packed
that they block all visual inform-
ation [other than that which en-
ables 'the' nervous system to
avoid injuries to the eyes from
"springing "rubber branches".]

But the 'maze'-designer included
all of the "instructions" that typ-
ically exist in a maze having well-
defined "paths", doing so by
tuning the flexibilities of the "rub-
ber branches" -- so the task that
faces the person at the center of
this densely-packed rubber-tree
'maze' is to use somatosensation
and proprioception to "feel" 'the'
path out of the 'maze'.

In this circumstance, as one in-
teracts with the "rubber trees",
one will "feel" less 'pressure'
in a direction and, because one
does, one will turn-into that dir-
ection, and move in that direction.

Whew! [It's 'hard' to do with just
words :-]

Can you see it?

Within nervous systems, neural
activation always occurs in an-
alogous ways, the "less-pressure"
condition =always= correlating to
'instantaneous' TD E/I(down).

Another reason that nervous sys-
tems are so tightly-integrated is
be-cause such instances of 'in-
stantaneous' TD E/I(down) can
occur in infinite ways -- and the
only way in which such infinities
can be 'appropriately' resolved
is by global-internal-cross-cor-
relation in which =overall= TD
E/I-minimization is the 'determin-
ing' thing, not the myriad small-
scale 'instantaneous' TD E/I(ups
& downs) that occur in-parallel.

In order to instantiate such over-
all TD E/I-minimization, it's nec-
essary that everything, all the way
'down' to infinitely-small scale,
be organized in ways that do, in
fact, constructively contribute to
convergence upon overall TD E/I-
minimization.

This sounds 'tautalogical', but,
returning to finding our ways out
of the "rubber-tree" 'maze', allows
us to see all that makes converg-
ence upon overall TD E/I-minimiz-
ation [with respect to the Infinities
that're =always= involved!] so
'easily' achievable.

So "move your arm" against the
rubber-tree branches to one 'side',
while doing the same on the other
'side', while turning-in-place.

"ZZZzzzzzzwww iiippp"

Out of all the somatosensory and
proprioceptive data that's flowing
into your nervous system as you
so "orient", up to the amygdalar
activation threshold [AoK, Ap5]
'one' resultant 'instantaneous' TD
E/I(up) is grater than all the others,
and, because of "ramp architecture"
like that which is depicted in the
attached diagram, that 'one' 'in-
stantaneous' TD E/I(up), via the
'normal' neural dynamics of individual
neurons, literally survives-within-the-
ramps better than relatively-smaller
instances of TD E/I that are 'simult-
neously' occurring.

Such neural-conduction-"survival"
occurs simply be-cause of sub-
amygdalar-activation-threshold
"power" [energy-flow], which, as
I've recently reiterated in another
thread, activates "inverting reward",
and, just like the grazing antelope,
you "orient" so as to maximize in-
verting reward -- which is 'just'
built-into the neural ramifictions of
=all= "ramp architecture". [Folks've
looked for it in terms of "specific
neurotransmitters", etc., but it can-
not be observed in terms of "spec-
ific neurotransmitters", etc., be-cause
the Neurochemistry is =always=
"functionally-multiplexed", in one
instance using one neurochemical,
and in another, a 'different' neuro-
chemical, and so forth, with all of
the various neurochemicals in-
stantiating the "ramp architecture",
not 'neurochemical subsystems'.]

So "inverting reward" is mediated
by this neurochemical "here", and
that neurochemical "there", but it's
=all= "inverting reward".

So, be-cause of the actuality of func-
tional multiplexing, one has recourse
to 'only' the Neuroanatomy, in which
everything is mapped from sensory
receptor-internally and internally-to
effectors.

Don't see the 'chemical soup'.

See the mapping that's right-there
to see in the Neuroanatomy.

Like in the diagram that I've attached
to this post.

=EVERYTHING= that's discussed in
AoK is =NECESSARY= for the min-
imal description of all that's involved
in "motivation".

So, as 'you' orient within the "rubber-
tree" 'maze', 'you' are able to 'read'
the 'maze'-designer's intent by liter-
ally =feeling= relative TD E/I, and
'moving' in the environmentally-
correlated direction, internal dir-
ections directly reflecting external
directions, but in an on-the-inside-
looking-out way which, at its most-
fundamental 'level', is functionally-
instantiated by the phenomenon of
decussation. It is decussation [our
"crosses"-within] that enables this
internal-external-directionality cross-
correlation -- and everything else that
happens 'within' nervous systems.

When one just looks at it [as is typ-
ically the case in graduate 'neuro-
anatomy' courses], decussation's
"map" seems 'nonsensically-hard'
to 'follow' -- talk about your "highway
interchange" :-]

But when one knows that everything
within nervous systems is ordered
to enable the doing of only one thing --
TD E/I-minimization -- decussation's
'difficulty' just 'goes away', and one
sees, in-it, the most-awesomely-
simple-possible-stuff.

That's why it's necessary to know
about TD E/I-minimization before
one can see the Neuroanatomy
[which is why "the Terrible Times"
were "Terrible" -- all those twists
and turns, 'disconnected' be-
cause understanding TD E/I-min-
imization is a necessary 'prerequ-
isite of seeing the Neuroanatomy
of-a-piece -- it was litterally a =Ter-
rible= struggle in which I had to
study everything, at first, not knowing
what I was even looking for. But
these things like the "ramp archi-
tecture" that's depicted in the dia-
gram, and a g'zillion other such
things =all= exhibit geometrical
'biases'. And I could see, in that
always-there-ness that there was
a general ordering-principle cor-
related to that always-right-there,
plain-as-day, geometrical 'bias'.

So I hopped around a lot, between
various disciplines [Physics, Psych-
ology, Sociology, Maths, Computer
Science, etc. and, of course, the
Neuroscience experimental results --
studying =everything= -- and slowly,
bit-by-bit, knitting it together in an
"abstract conceptual" perspective in
which there was only one 'rule' --
"there are no 'rules' [which is what
rendered me 'incompatable' with
grad school because, in grad school,
the progression of coerced 'rules' is
'sacrosanct' -- and, while so working,
I realized that the geometrical 'biases'
all conformed to stuff like inclined
planes [including some "pretty-fancy"
ones that loop-back-upon themselves,
forming the substrate for "inversion",
etc.], upon which stuff "slides" under
the force of 'gravity'.

So I knew that I was looking for
a generalized energy-flow dyn-
amic, and, after nine 'years' of
hammerin' on the problem, I
Verified that the generalized
energy-flow is TD E/I-minimiz-
ation.

Nervous system function literally
slides within the "ramp architect-
ure, always 'moving toward' TD
E/I-minimization. Within nervous
systems, energy always flows
[overall] in =that= direction.

Work on 'walking' through the
"rubber-tree" 'maze' until 'you'
can see TD E/I-minimization
happening within [at first] only
the mappings of the phenomen-
on of decussation.

Yeah, external-environmental
directions and directedness
are infinitely-variable, but, in-
ternally, there's 'just' energy-flow-
ing the =one= direction -- which
is what enables nervous systems
to ='climb'= the one-way flow of en-
ergy, from order to disorder, that
is what's =described= by 2nd
Thermo [WDB2T], thereby 'mov-
ing toward' increased 'order'.

So stay 'in' the "rubber-tree"
'maze' until 'you' get-it -- feel
'your' way through the 'pres-
sure'-density variations that
the maze's designer built-
into it [don't 'read' any 'hid-
den messages' -- I'm just
discussing the "rubber-tree"
'maze', wanting to help 'you'
understand TD E/I-minimiz-
ation.]

Don't 'fret' when your nervous
system becomes "quieted"
when you realize that after
following a 'promising' low-
"rubber-branch" 'path'. That's
'just' 'your' nervous system
Loving 'you' [AoK, Ap8.]

Learn from such and "look
elsewhere" for longer "low-
pressure" paths.

In this way, it's Certain that
'you' will find your way out of
the 'maze'.

[For folks who have been
reading over the 'years',
all I did in this post was to
reiterate my former "Truth's
One Map", discussions, try-
ing to give folks something
'tactile' to 'experience'.]

Neuroanatomy Texts, and
their contents', same-old,
same-old :-]

You know -- 'feel the wind'
with your own good 'weather
vanes', and 'move' accordingly.

k. p. collins [ken]

Re: Pain-induced coma resulting from alteration of RAS. Real Science or Myth?

"Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon,net > wrote in message
news:f3aBh.4095$103.2847@trndny05...
> This post is technically-'Difficult' [be-
> cause it will tie-together a lot of stuff
> that I've discussed, here in b.n over
> the course of more than a 'decade'.]
> [...]

After rereading my lengthy 'updated'
post, I saw that there's still a =lot= of
untapped Opportunity for discussion
in-it, so, this 'night', I'll post some little-
snippet updates-to-the-update.

"Of course", folks who want to under-
stand these additional things 'should'
read [study] the previous, lengthy, post.

> [...]

> "Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon,net > wrote in message
> news:KyQAh.2543$II6.1835@trnddc07...
>> [...]
>> "John H." <j_hasenkam@yahoo,com .au> wrote in message
>> news:1171285815.783869.116640@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
>>> On Feb 8, 3:09 am, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite,com > wrote:
>>>> On Feb 7, 7:28 am, pboud <pboud_01NOSPA...@hotmail,com > wrote:
>>>> [...]
>> [...]

>> [The gist of what's in my lengthy
>> post, below: "motivation's" sub-
>> strate is distributed =throughout=
>> nervous systems.]
> [...]

Everything that's needed to Verify the
assertion, above, has been in AoK
all along.

For instance, see the "motor curiosity"
[and "motor novelty"] discussion in AoK,
Ap5, [in the more-general discussion
of the role of the hippocampus in the
generation of generalized intermediate-
'level' curiosity] which explains the how
and why of just-learning-to-walk Infants'
locomotion [motor] Directionality 'choices'
when they are in their 'first' experiences
with respect to walking upon "inclined-
plane" surfaces.

[BTW, I chose this [Delightful] example
for inclusion in AoK because, in-it, ex-
ternal "inclined planes" are rigorously
cross-correlated with the "ramp archi-
tecture" -- literally the inclined planes --
that exist[s] within the neural topology.

This, in order to disclose the same-stuff
3-D energydynamics -- internal environ-
ment<->external environment -- same-
old, same-old in terms of the Physics
of the energy-flows inherent.

All of the "Examples that I included in
AoK were, similarly, selected for the
depth of the stuff that's brought-together
and cross-correlated in them. [They
can all be accessed, in both the paper
and electronic versions of AoK, under,
"Examples" in the index. The page
numbers are given in the paper version,
but the "links" in the electronic version
are only 'rough' [I converted the paper
version to the MSDOS[tm] hypertext
software that I used to produce the
electronic version in only a few 'days',
in order to just make AoK available.
So, while doing so, I only 'linked' the
paper version's footnotes roughly --
'thinking' that I'd "get-back" to re-
writing [expanding] AoK after folks
saw what was in AoK -- never hap-
pened :-|]

Anyway, I've been wanting to post a
msg referring-back to the AoK's "mo-
tor curiosity" discussion for some
'weeks' because we had a messy
little storm that left the roadways
all "slushy" and, just as the snow-
plows were clearing the roads, the
ambient environmental temperature
was plummeting precipitously into
negative [F] range.

So, when the snowplows cleared
the slush that the messy little storm
had left on the roads, the slush was
thrown from the street onto the side-
walk I traverse while walking to the
grocery store where I buy my food
[where I purchase my supply of
metabolic-energy -- WDB2T, you
know :-], because the temp was drop-
ping so precipitously, when the slush
landed on the sidewalk, the slush
froze in a spectacular way -- form-
ing 'uniformely'-rounded "nodules"
[which are very-interesting, in-and-of,
themselves, be-cause one can "read"
the environmental energy-flow value
and directionality directly from the nod-
ules' radii :-]

Anyway, on the 'morning' following
this little storm, I 'had to' go get some
'food' --- "walk, walk, walk..." -- and
while doing so, came upon a group
of four ~ 12-13-Year-Olds who were
also walking on the nodule-strewn
sidewalk -- and taking =Great-De-
light= in doing so -- joking with one
another and laughing-hugely all
the while as they did the work in-
herent in maintaining their bodies'
'states' of balance while their feet
and ankles were 'forced' all-about
in this way and that during their con-
tack-interactions with the slippery-
round hard-frozen "nodules" -- like
walking on "ball bearings", with
"rolling-ness" replaced by static-
ally-located "slipperiness".

I shared their levity as I realized that,
"They are experiencing the Infant's
new-kind-of-walking Joy."

"Motor curiosity", unfolding again,
right before my eyes -- and be-
cause I was also walking upon the
"nodules", the whole was 'instan-
taneously' ["Flash!] cross-correlated
within my own nervous system.

A =Wonder-filled= experiencing, all-
around.

I shared their Joy completely.

The 'point' of the above being to
demonstrate, once again, how
and why the substrate for "motiva-
tion" =is= distributed =throughout=
the entire extents of nervous sys-
tems.

Understand?

The motor novelty that took the
form of TD E/I(up) resulting from
the 'unfamiliar' angualr-dynamics
that the Youths' walking-upon-the-
slippery-nodules imposed 'within'
their nervous systems is 'just' far-
distally-generated motor TD E/I(up),
but one can literally see it activating
inverting reward within the Youths'
nervous systems.

In such, one can see that the sub-
strate of "motivation" exists even
in the most-distal regions of 'the'
nervous system -- as it =must= be
in order to enable the globally-int-
egrated "learning" dynamics that
are "governed" by the hippocampal
"intermediate-'level'" "supersystem
configuration" dynamics.

As is discussed in AoK, Ap5, the
hippocampus "gates" inverting re-
ward in order to 'compensate' for
the fact that the motor novelty be-
ing experienced is na inherently-
TD E/I(up) neural dynamic. Bu
gating inverting reward, the hippo-
campus enables "learning" by
literally orienting "attention" to the
environmental source of the TD
E/I(up) that's being experienced.

These dynamics are as a "servo
mechanism" with respect to "learn-
ing".

That is, through its gating of invert-
ing reward, the hippocampus con-
figures the "supersystem" so that
the motor novelty that's being ex-
perienced is, 'temporarily', given
'maximum' priority within the on-go-
ing global system.

As a result of this, behaviors that
"handle" the motor novelty are op-
timally "learned", simply be-cause
the neural activation explicitly-cor-
related to them are gated-to-prior-
ity within the Youth's nervous sys-
tems.

As "learning" occours, the original
TD E/I(up) is "whittled"-away [via
the alternation of specific and sto-
chastic inputs that is discussed in
the same section of AoK, Ap5], and
TD E/I-minimization is, in this way,
'gradyally' [typically, rapidly] con-
verged-upon. As TD E/I-minimiz-
ation occurs, the hippocampus
gates less and less inverting reward,
which "weans" the overall neural
dynamics away-from being invert-
ing-reward-driven -- which is all
extremely-practical be-cause, when
TD E/I-minimization has been
achieved, the "supersystem" has
"learned" how to guide the activation
of the body's effectors [musculature]
in ways that are strongly-adapted to
'appropriately'-handling the environ-
mental stuff that =formerly= [pre-
"learning"] comprised the "motor
novelty".

Understand?

It's all very-wonder-filled stuff -- so
elegantly-'engineered' that a full
grasp of it leaves one's eyes spill-
ing-over -- Joyful-water.

There's so much in-it, all happening
all-at-once, with many different, but
coordinated, types of "ramp archi-
tecture, that understanding it all re-
quires reiterative 'contemplation'.

Work on it until you can see, for in-
stance, that the hippocampal gating
of inverting reward is =itself= 'just'
another instance of "ramp architect-
ure, albeit, a globally-distributed,
one, in which even the primary
motor activation is integrated with-
in the dynamics of inverting reward.

Understand?

There are =myriad= neurochemicals
involved, but all of them act in-unison
with respect to overall TD E/I-minimiz-
ation and, with respect to the Direct-
ional-'appropriateness' of behavior,
including =all= of the "learning" that's
inherent.

It's all of-a-piece.

"Motivation is distributed throughout
the entire extents of nervous systems."

And, within such, =MYRIAD= neuro-
chemicals are "functionally multiplexed"
in ways that are =tuned= to the, 'then',
converged-upon "supersystem con-
figuration."

Within other supersystem configura-
tions, the =same= neurochemicals will
be functionally multiplexed in =different=
ways, as the information-processing
needs of those other supersystem con-
figurations demand.

Understand?

One =cannot= "get here" through invocations
of so-called "neurochemical subsystems."

Work on understanding this Example
in all of its particulars.

It's a very-useful one.

"I smiled as I realized that the [Youths']
Joy was also my own."

[I'm sorry. I'm 'tired', 'now', and will have
to 'rest' a while before I can post the
other "little-snippet updates" that I said
I was going to post. I'll try to get-back-to-
them over the 'week'-end.]

k. p. collins [ken]