How does pain decrease consciousness?

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

"Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon,net > wrote in message
news:AEyzh.262$5M1.50@trndny01...
> "Radium" <glucegen1@excite,com > wrote in message
> news:1171169684.463482.217880@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
>> On Feb 10, 7:58 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:
>>> [...]
> [...]

> "Pain" and the underlying neural damage
> are often correlated but are actually two
> different things.
> [...]

It's 'funny' -- even while I was writing my
prior post, I was 'thinking' about indiv-
iduals who, because their nervous sys-
tems do not include 'normal' "pain" func-
tionality, often severely injure themselves
because they 'just' don't experience "pain".
After posting, I saw that I had to address
this circumstance which was not addressed
in my prior discussions in this thread.

All of this can be strongly-resolved, non-
invasively, by comparing myographic-
array data between subjects who lack
'normal' "pain" functionality and 'normal'
subjects.

The myographic-array data [of course]
conforms to muscle activations, but,
as I've discussed, muscle activations
are strongly-correlated to 'normal' "pain"
functionality -- so, with NDT's synthesis
in-hand, the myographic-array data is
sufficient to answer questions like this
one.

Myographic-array diagnosis [MAD :-]
can be of enormous usefulness, with
respect to =all= macroscopic neural
considerations because there's actually
no 'dividing-line' between "sensory" and
"motor" neural dynamics -- look at the
"motor" 'side', and one can simultan-
eously see into the "sensory" 'side' [of
course, like with respect to any other
approach the neural dynamics, the
more-dense the array, the greater the
resolution of the data and the better
the "seeing".]

With specific respect to the above ap-
plication, one will literally be able to
see the internal nervous system dif-
ferences between the two subject
classes -- which encompasses the
whole problem.

ken

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

"Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon,net > wrote in message
news:xPRzh.2638$5M1.1756@trndny01...
> "Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon,net > wrote in message
> news:AEyzh.262$5M1.50@trndny01...
>> "Radium" <glucegen1@excite,com > wrote in message
>> news:1171169684.463482.217880@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
>>> On Feb 10, 7:58 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:
>>>> [...]
>> [...]
> [...]

> Myographic-array diagnosis [MAD :-]
> can be of enormous usefulness, with
> respect to =all= macroscopic neural
> considerations because there's actually
> no 'dividing-line' between "sensory" and
> "motor" neural dynamics -- look at the
> "motor" 'side', and one can simultan-
> eously see into the "sensory" 'side' [of
> course, like with respect to any other
> approach the neural dynamics, the
> more-dense the array, the greater the
> resolution of the data and the better
> the "seeing".]
> [...]

I see, in what I previously-posted, that
the stuff above is another thing that I
have to make-clear has [to my know-
ledge] not yet become generally-accept-
ed by my colleagues in Neuroscience.

So folks should not treat it as if it "is
generally accepted".

It stands Verified. It's True, but, as far
as I'm aware, not [yet] acknowledged
by anyone other than me.

[I invented "MAD" during "the Terrible
Times", and found it to be a "tool" of
extraordinary-usefulness.

I do it in a "virtual-machine" way, stud-
ying my own, 'typical' effector activations
and cross-correlating them [tracing
them] throughout the global functional
Neuroanatomy [workin' in the ol' nog-
gin' lab :-] with the results produced
down through the 'centuries' by those
who've studied Neuroscience before
me.

But I've also shared "MAD" with others,
including showing folks how to do it
with real machines, dating back more
than two 'decades'. It's capable of point-
ing directly to =the= optimal way to
treat athletic injuries, for instance, so
I tried to tell folks how to do such, for
the sakes of Athletes and Athletics.

'Course, the same-stuff applies, in the
same way, to all injuries.

"Thought that'd work" :-]

I've never searched for such, but I'd
be very-surprised if "MAD" has not
been implemented [of course, in a
'different' guise] by those who gained-
knowledge of it through my efforts to
communicate NDT's understanding.

'profits', you know.

It's 'funny'... It's True. It stands Verified.
But I must care for folks' beings as I
have above.

Even while receiving the above 'in return'.

Man-oh-man! All I wanted when I was
Young was to have a Woman who'd
Love-me-right-back, while not minding
that I was always in the garage work-
ing on my "hot rod" [and wherever
such an interest would lead, which
was, then, hopefully to the race track.]

'Life' was 'simple' back then.

Then, I Saw "the problem".

[Do folks understand why I =Must=
post stuff like this?

Truth can only work on-folks'-behalfs
when it is Honored -- 'moved toward'.

As things've stood, prior 'moving
away from' Truth [in order to 'seek
profits'] has been 'preventing' folks'
'moving toward' Truth.

[It's the neurodynamics of 'guilt',
which is 'just' more TD E/I-minimiza-
tion-directed 'movement'.]

When I post stuff like the above dis-
cussion I'm eliminating that which,
as results of prior mis-takes, has
'stood-between' folks and Truth.

So folks can receive the Benefits of
'moving toward' Truth.

When I post stuff like the above,
I'm "clearing-the-path" -- excising
'the beast'.

"Noggin' lab" 'surgery.

I Love 'you' in that way.]

k. p. collins [ken]

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

"Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon,net > wrote in message
news:0YvAh.2692$g82.261@trndny09...
> "Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon,net > wrote in message
> news:xPRzh.2638$5M1.1756@trndny01...
>> "Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon,net > wrote in message
>> news:AEyzh.262$5M1.50@trndny01...
>>> "Radium" <glucegen1@excite,com > wrote in message
>>> news:1171169684.463482.217880@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
>>>> On Feb 10, 7:58 pm, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>> [...]
>> [...]
> [...]

> [It's the neurodynamics of 'guilt',
> which is 'just' more TD E/I-minimiza-
> tion-directed 'movement'.]

I've remained awake this 'night' be-
cause it's storming outside, and I
take care of my elderly neighbors'
walks.

So I've been 'watching' the over-'night'
News.

The 'agreement' with respect to North
Korea's 'nuclear' weapons program
is being discussed -- and, on one 'side'
of the American discourse, I hear stuff
like "this is extortion", on the other 'side',
"we want to help these people who are
suffering from hunger".

Clearly, the former is 'blindly'-automated
TD E/I-minimization, left-uncomprehend-
ed, and the latter is The American Way,
born in the 'same' Spirit of Recognizing,
and acting-upon, injustice that enlightened
the 'hearts' of the Founders, then giving
Birth to This Nation.

A 'moment'.

Hope and Courage on one 'side', born
in 'hearts' Seeing what =can= be.

The Same-Stuff-B. S. on the other, born
in experience so narrowly-focussed by
the "Beltway-'boundary' that it cannot
see that it's virtually-imprisoned -- that
it is 'substituting' the 'approval' of its 'sup-
eriors' for Thought with respect to the
Fact that what's needed is the fostering
of shared-experience in which, and =on-
ly= in which, mutual-understanding and
mutual-purpose can blossom.

I want to run to these folks saying, "Look
here. Here's a 100-page paper that gives
you everything you need to lift all involved
up in mutual-understanding that, in this
Crucial 'moment', can spread across all
of Humanity, lifting-up all people, every-
where, in the light of knowing =how and
why= Responsibility rests upon the
shoulders of =every= individual, and that
there's Joy in such knowing, against
which 'hatred' =cannot= stand."

It's not 'wishful'thinking'.

It's 'just' Truth.

'Just' the strongest stuff there is.

But in this Crucial 'moment', I hear, in
the News this 'night', that folks 'prefer'
to continue to 'move toward' the old,
long-'familiar' 'blind'-ness, 'loving'
not-seeing, forsaking the awesome
ability-to-See that's right-there 'within'
them.

In this Crucial 'moment'.

When all that is Good for Humanity
could begin to unfold.

Folks 'blinded' by the old, long-'familiar'
'rules' of the 'club' in which they've so
'cherished' 'membership', and to which
they 'look' for their 'reward' -- 'world' de-
limited to =that= -- 'move toward' 'lead-
ing' the rest of Humanity into the ab-
sence-of-light that they hold-'dear'.

I choose The American Way -- that
spark of Recognition of the longing
for Peace and Freedom, that, innate
within all 'hearts', everywhere, broke-
Free and guided America to Her own
Being.

It's such a Crucial 'moment'.

In the News this 'night'.

'Everyone' 'stuck' in 'fear' with 'respect'
to what's 'just' in human beings to do.

To Communicate.

But for that absence, Humanity's
future is left to the whims of Chance.

Homo Sapiens?

Still, stirings of The American Way
were in the News this 'night'.

In that, being-voiced, Hope exists.

Will anyone lend =their= voice to
that 'side'?

The side that sees and thinks?

Please, the 'moment' is so Crucial.

The whole can, in this 'moment', =Be=.

The "white-heat" forges 'hearts'.

Enables them to =See=.

If only 'hearts' are bid offerred
understanding.

Don't 'cling' to the old, long-'familiar'
'way' against which Americans have
always, themselves, Rebelled.

Understand that "All men were created
equal", and that that includes being
able to eat, and care for and Love
the Children.

Understand that that stuff so Dear,
is Dear in all human 'hearts', and
that, if we are to have it for ourselves,
it is Right and Just that we find it
in our 'hearts' assist others in finding
it in theirs, too.

Just like us.

Because, look and see, the same-stuff
is right-there, within all people, every-
where.

'move away from such, and 'you' 'move
away from' Truth.

And Truth does what it does, regardless.

That's been the problem.

America had 'forgotten' the very stuff
that breathed Life into Her.

Understand?

Remember!

I am =with= you.

I will cheer for you.

I will share your hope.

I will lift-my-voice.

But I will =not= not-See.

'blindness' Ravages.

=Remember= yourself, America!

ken

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

"Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon,net > wrote in message
news:AEyzh.262$5M1.50@trndny01...
| [...]

| The diffuse mapping of "pain" elevates
| TD E/I, which elevated TD E/I is inverted
| by the totally-inhibitory outputs of the
| cerebellum, the inverted 'state' is pro-
| jected back to the muscles that "stress"
| [activate] the ankle -- so the ankle is
| automatically activated less forcefully,
| which minimizes further tissue damage
| and optimizes healing of the injured
| ankle.
|
| The actuality of the weakened activation
| is directly-observable in the fact that
| the muscles activating the ankle "go
| limp", which is also monitorable via
| myographic electrode arrays applied
| to various loci on the body's surface
| [an injured ankle shows up even in
| such far-away places as the back,
| trunk, and neck musculature -- a
| sorrowful case of such was with re-
| spect to the thoroughbred, Barbaro's
| devastating injury and valliant fight
| for survival -- one could see the ef-
| fects of the activation-shifts discus-
| sed above spreading through Bar-
| baro's body as one area after another
| became overwhelmed because of
| the extra burden it had to carry in
| order to allow "the other area" an
| opportunity to heal. [...]

I just watched NBC's special program
on [Heroic] Barbaro.

They advertised a DVD of their special
program. Perhaps the DVD is available
on NBC's web site?

If you view it, you'll see all of what I dis-
cussed in my prior post [excerpted
above] -- in the way laminitis spread
to Barbaro's other three hooves.

=All= injuries to =all= animals, including
humans, stress the injured-body in the
analogous way.

This's why "myographic array diagnosis"
[MAD] =should be= being used [if it's
not already being used] in Medicine.

MAD data not only delineates the injury's
extent, it simultaneously delineates the
Necessary Care-Giving strategies with
respect to =all= injuries.

It can even be used to assess and treat
"traumatic brain injury" -- because, as
has been explained in AoK, Ap5 all along,
and as I reiterated in my other posts in
the thread linked-to above, "motor" and
"sensory" dynamics are =always= in-
timately-involved.

Anyway, I Liked the Horse.

k. p. collins

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

On Feb 10, 12:31 am, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite,com > wrote:
> Hi:
>
> I posted this message before but didn't get any answers. I apologize
> profusely to those who are annoyed by the repeated message.
>
> The following martial arts site discusses certain techniques to
> incapacitate opponents. The one I quoted talk about pain causing loss
> of consciousness by disrupting the reticular formation. Is this true
> science or just some age old myth?

the short answer is that there is no scientific endevor that links the
RAS with knockouts through any mechanism. everything you have said or
asked about is bald speculation

doesn't mean its wrong, or right, just that no one has looked at this
particular question in a clinical fashion.

carl


> Thanks,
>
> Radium
>
> P.S. sorry for my recent outburst in these NGs. I was very frustrated
> as haven't found any answer to my ever-so-interesting question.

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

<caterbro@my-deja,com > wrote in message
news:1171174321.490258.15730@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
> On Feb 10, 12:31 am, "Radium" <gluceg...@excite,com > wrote:
>> Hi:
>>
>> I posted this message before but didn't get any answers. I apologize
>> profusely to those who are annoyed by the repeated message.
>>
>> The following martial arts site discusses certain techniques to
>> incapacitate opponents. The one I quoted talk about pain causing loss
>> of consciousness by disrupting the reticular formation. Is this true
>> science or just some age old myth?
>
> the short answer is that there is no scientific endevor that links the
> RAS with knockouts through any mechanism. everything you have said or
> asked about is bald speculation

Because of the way the reticular formation is
widely-distributed within the brain stem, and
because of the vast interconnectedness of
the various nuclear groups comprising the
reticular formation, =ny= injury to the brain
stem =definitely= alters the activation occur-
ring in the reticular system. Injuries to the
brain stem can occur in any form of pugilism,
simply because of the g-forces and high-ac-
celerations that are commonly imposed by,
and upon, the combatants. Contact sports
such as American Football, same-old,
same-old.

'The' nervous system was optimized [won-
derously so] for 'normal' activities, not the
artificially-constrained [and 'contained']
rule-'states' imposed in violent-athletics.

This reality must be kept always-in-mind
while considering trauma.

ken

> doesn't mean its wrong, or right, just that no one has looked at this
> particular question in a clinical fashion.
>
> carl
>
>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Radium
>>
>> P.S. sorry for my recent outburst in these NGs. I was very frustrated
>> as haven't found any answer to my ever-so-interesting question.
>
>
>
>

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

"Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon,net > wrote in message
news:GRyzh.173$8b1.155@trndny03...
> [...]

To folks in the cross-posted NGs: I'm
post ing exclusively in bionet.neuroscience.

ken

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

Per Benjamin:
>Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!postnews.google,com !news4.google,com !border1.nntp.dca.giganews,com !nntp.giganews,com !nx01.iad01.newshosting,com !newshosting,com !130.81.64.211.MISMATCH!cycny01.gnilink,net !spamkiller2.gnilink,net !gnilink,net !trndny08.POSTED!9fa40849!not-for-mail
>From: "Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon,net >
>Newsgroups: bionet.neuroscience,alt.support.disorders.neurological,misc.emerg-services,rec.martial-arts,sci.med.psychobiology
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>Subject: Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?
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>"Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon,net > wrote in message
>news:GRyzh.173$8b1.155@trndny03...
>> [...]
>
>To folks in the cross-posted NGs: I'm
>post ing exclusively in bionet.neuroscience.
>
>ken
>

That one made it to lt.support.disorders.neurological..
--
PeteCresswell

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:7e8us2p377cbp1ij1b6migbcfpvh1m3o74@4ax,com ...
> [...]

> That one made it to lt.support.disorders.neurological..

I Erred in phrasing my post.

When I noted the cross-posting,
I should've said that I'm =reading=
exclusively in b.n.

ken

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

On Feb 11, 1:38 am, "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon,net > wrote:

> > the short answer is that there is no scientific endevor that links the
> > RAS with knockouts through any mechanism. everything you have said or
> > asked about is bald speculation
>
> Because of the way the reticular formation is
> widely-distributed within the brain stem, and
> because of the vast interconnectedness of
> the various nuclear groups comprising the
> reticular formation, =ny= injury to the brain
> stem Þfinitely= alters the activation occur-
> ring in the reticular system.

sure. no disputation. to the *quite specific* question the poster has
asked a number of times, , i'll stand by my answer. i should have
written, "there is no scientific endeavor(sic) that links the RAS with
knockouts through any mechanism among those listed in your citation."

there is plenty of research done on knockouts, force transference,
fist via brain, etc. nothing *specifically* addressing the role of the
quoteunquote RAS in terms of knockout due to pain, or nerve trauma, or
even plain ol' light stimulus against nerves and organs in the body.

the question, for those confused by the apparent lack of reality-based
context, hearkens back to "point knockouts" and "pressure point"
applications in self-defense of empty-hand combat scenarios, wherein
mystical bearded Great Ones casually sleepify hordes of angry
attackers with light taps and brushes against random body parts.

given the gravity of the topic, a certain free compass is assumed for
all seekers in terms of the questions and the answers they are looking
for.
;)

carl

>the question is a b Injuries to the
> brain stem can occur in any form of pugilism,
> simply because of the g-forces and high-ac-
> celerations that are commonly imposed by,
> and upon, the combatants. Contact sports
> such as American Football, same-old,
> same-old.
>
> 'The' nervous system was optimized [won-
> derously so] for 'normal' activities, not the
> artificially-constrained [and 'contained']
> rule-'states' imposed in violent-athletics.
>
> This reality must be kept always-in-mind
> while considering trauma.
>
> ken
>
> > doesn't mean its wrong, or right, just that no one has looked at this
> > particular question in a clinical fashion.
>
> > carl
>
> >> Thanks,
>
> >> Radium
>
> >> P.S. sorry for my recent outburst in these NGs. I was very frustrated
> >> as haven't found any answer to my ever-so-interesting question.

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

caterbro@my-deja,com wrote:
[...]
> the question, for those confused by the apparent lack of reality-based
> context, hearkens back to "point knockouts" and "pressure point"
> applications in self-defense of empty-hand combat scenarios, wherein
> mystical bearded Great Ones casually sleepify hordes of angry
> attackers with light taps and brushes against random body parts.
>

Dim mok entails nudging muscles out of the way and applying pressure
directly to the nerves that were supposed to be protected by the muscles.

marma adi is the Indian equivalent, and is thought by some to be the
source for dim mok.

Don't know if you can really learn to do this at will, especially in a
fight, but I've done it by accident, so the principle makes sense, if
not the practice.

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

"Lawson English" <LawsonE@nowhere.none> wrote
>>....wherein
>> mystical bearded Great Ones casually sleepify hordes of angry
>> attackers with light taps and brushes against random body parts.

It only *looks* 'light'.

> Don't know if you can really learn to do this at will, especially in a
> fight, but I've done it by accident, so the principle makes sense, if not
> the practice.

It works.

Chas

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

Chas wrote:
> "Lawson English" <LawsonE@nowhere.none> wrote
>>> ....wherein
>>> mystical bearded Great Ones casually sleepify hordes of angry
>>> attackers with light taps and brushes against random body parts.
>
> It only *looks* 'light'.
>
>> Don't know if you can really learn to do this at will, especially in a
>> fight, but I've done it by accident, so the principle makes sense, if not
>> the practice.
>
> It works.
>
> Chas
>
>

The time I did it by accident, I was describing the chart I'd seen in
Sifu Agustine Fong's school on the hand positions and strike-movements
for Dim Mok. I gently nudged my friends arm and coincidentally made just
the right move and her arm went numb. There should be no requirement for
brute strength when the technique is done right. It's a matter of angle
of attack and moving the covering muscle or muscles in the right
direction or directions to expose the vulnerable point underneath.

The only question is: can someone do this reliably in a real fight? Mr.
Spock has superhuman strength and can immobilize his victim with one
hand as he does his technique. Humans don't have that option.

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

"Lawson English" <LawsonE@nowhere.none> wrote
>.....There should be no requirement for brute strength when the technique
>is done right. It's a matter of angle of attack and moving the covering
>muscle or muscles in the right direction or directions to expose the
>vulnerable point underneath.

In it's finesse, perhaps- the reality is that you hit as hard as you can,
but refine the focus of that hit in order to get maximum results.

> The only question is: can someone do this reliably in a real fight?

Yes- given that anything is all that 'reliable' in that
confusion/distraction.
I have some really strong anecdotal experiences, sufficient to convince me
of it's efficacy.
--
Chas
Do the Right Thing!
http :// www .jacksandsaps,com /
(blackjacks, saps, massage tools, practice and conditioning tools)

Re: How does pain decrease consciousness?

Chas wrote:
> "Lawson English" <LawsonE@nowhere.none> wrote
>> .....There should be no requirement for brute strength when the technique
>> is done right. It's a matter of angle of attack and moving the covering
>> muscle or muscles in the right direction or directions to expose the
>> vulnerable point underneath.
>
> In it's finesse, perhaps- the reality is that you hit as hard as you can,
> but refine the focus of that hit in order to get maximum results.
>

Er, that's not a 'death *touch*' obviously. What I am talking about IS
the ability to lightly (as compared to "hitting as hard as your can")
brushing someone and causing pain or disabling them in some way. It is
apparently possible to do with practice under controlled conditions, but
what you describe isn't at all like what I am talking about.

>> The only question is: can someone do this reliably in a real fight?
>
> Yes- given that anything is all that 'reliable' in that
> confusion/distraction.
> I have some really strong anecdotal experiences, sufficient to convince me
> of it's efficacy.