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MRI experience ..
I recently had an head/neck MRI for chronic pain on the left side of
my head, neck and back, ringing ears and dizziness. The scan went
down to C1-C2.
The MRI was taken in supine position. Towards the end of the scanning
process I began to feel throbbing in the front of my throat in
synchrony with the banging of the scanner. This continued until the
the muscles on my left upper back joined in, twitching in time with
the banging of the scanner. I assumed they were scanning the lower
brain down to C1-C2 at this time.
I asked the technician and his colleague about this and was told that
it sometime happens. His colleague said that she noticed the
vibration on the monitor during this time. He seemed to be reluctant
to speak so I didn't persue it.
I heard nothing more about it. I assumed it may be of diagnostic
value only because the area of spasming (contracting) muscles are
where I have chronic pain.
The ENT that ordered the scan did not know why and suggested I contact
the radiologist. Unfortunately their policy is not to talk directly
to patients. The ENT is reluctant to waste his time given that the
scan was unremarkable.
I thought that the MRI would not interfer with the nerves in this
way. Causing firing potentials to be reached. Makes me wonder about
whether my brain was randomly changed during the scan ;) A sobering
thought but beside the point (no metaphorical pun intended).
Given that I have no diagnosis except "you may have Meniere's
syndrome", I would be interested in any comments.
Thanks,
Zack
my head, neck and back, ringing ears and dizziness. The scan went
down to C1-C2.
The MRI was taken in supine position. Towards the end of the scanning
process I began to feel throbbing in the front of my throat in
synchrony with the banging of the scanner. This continued until the
the muscles on my left upper back joined in, twitching in time with
the banging of the scanner. I assumed they were scanning the lower
brain down to C1-C2 at this time.
I asked the technician and his colleague about this and was told that
it sometime happens. His colleague said that she noticed the
vibration on the monitor during this time. He seemed to be reluctant
to speak so I didn't persue it.
I heard nothing more about it. I assumed it may be of diagnostic
value only because the area of spasming (contracting) muscles are
where I have chronic pain.
The ENT that ordered the scan did not know why and suggested I contact
the radiologist. Unfortunately their policy is not to talk directly
to patients. The ENT is reluctant to waste his time given that the
scan was unremarkable.
I thought that the MRI would not interfer with the nerves in this
way. Causing firing potentials to be reached. Makes me wonder about
whether my brain was randomly changed during the scan ;) A sobering
thought but beside the point (no metaphorical pun intended).
Given that I have no diagnosis except "you may have Meniere's
syndrome", I would be interested in any comments.
Thanks,
Zack
On Apr 14, 8:46 am, pete.bur...@3dvolumetrics.net wrote:
> There is nothing to sue for..
pete.... come on ...... i don't think he's trying to sue....
On Apr 11, 4:59 pm, zack <zachary_macdon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> .....I began to feel throbbing in the front of my throat in
> synchrony with the banging of the scanner. This continued until the
> the muscles on my left upper back joined in, twitching in time with
> the banging of the scanner. ...and was told that
> it sometime happens. His colleague said that she noticed the
> vibration on the monitor during this time. He seemed to be reluctant
> to speak so I didn't persue it.
now granted, i'm a ct tech, not an mri tech, but my wife used to be.
to understand why that was normal, you really need to have some idea
of how mri works.
most of radiology works of the normal x-ray theroy of where x-rays
exit the x-ray tube, pass through the patient, and expose the film.
mri is a little bit different. ok, so maybe it's very different. for
technologists to cross from normal radiology to mri, they have to
almost forget all the physics of radiology, because mri is so
different.
if you have any kind of science background, or even if you can
remember high school chemistry, remember your atoms. you've got
electrons, protons, neutrons, ions, molecules, etc. etc. that all
comine together to make you what you are. many of these atoms have
some sort of charge to them. when you enter the mri machine (correct
me if i'm wrong guys) the magnet will line up all of your hydrogen (?)
atoms so that they are all pointing the same direction. this is the
neutral state, and for the sake of discussion, let's just say that
they are pointing up. when you start hearing that loud banging, the
scanner is changing the magnetic field in such a way that it "slams"
down the atoms so that they are laying flat. as the atoms return to
their neutral state, they give off an RF wave, which is picked up by
the coil (or antenna). the coil is that mask thing that they put over
your head.
what you probabally were feeling was your atoms shifting from lying
flat to standing up. you stated that the vibrations coinsided with
the pulses of the scanner. each time it pulses, it slams your atoms
back down. to me, that would make sense. it's just one of the things
about mri, it's normal, and nothing really to worry about.
hope this helps
papa
** at pete: nothing to sue for.... sheesh ;) **
> There is nothing to sue for..
pete.... come on ...... i don't think he's trying to sue....
On Apr 11, 4:59 pm, zack <zachary_macdon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> .....I began to feel throbbing in the front of my throat in
> synchrony with the banging of the scanner. This continued until the
> the muscles on my left upper back joined in, twitching in time with
> the banging of the scanner. ...and was told that
> it sometime happens. His colleague said that she noticed the
> vibration on the monitor during this time. He seemed to be reluctant
> to speak so I didn't persue it.
now granted, i'm a ct tech, not an mri tech, but my wife used to be.
to understand why that was normal, you really need to have some idea
of how mri works.
most of radiology works of the normal x-ray theroy of where x-rays
exit the x-ray tube, pass through the patient, and expose the film.
mri is a little bit different. ok, so maybe it's very different. for
technologists to cross from normal radiology to mri, they have to
almost forget all the physics of radiology, because mri is so
different.
if you have any kind of science background, or even if you can
remember high school chemistry, remember your atoms. you've got
electrons, protons, neutrons, ions, molecules, etc. etc. that all
comine together to make you what you are. many of these atoms have
some sort of charge to them. when you enter the mri machine (correct
me if i'm wrong guys) the magnet will line up all of your hydrogen (?)
atoms so that they are all pointing the same direction. this is the
neutral state, and for the sake of discussion, let's just say that
they are pointing up. when you start hearing that loud banging, the
scanner is changing the magnetic field in such a way that it "slams"
down the atoms so that they are laying flat. as the atoms return to
their neutral state, they give off an RF wave, which is picked up by
the coil (or antenna). the coil is that mask thing that they put over
your head.
what you probabally were feeling was your atoms shifting from lying
flat to standing up. you stated that the vibrations coinsided with
the pulses of the scanner. each time it pulses, it slams your atoms
back down. to me, that would make sense. it's just one of the things
about mri, it's normal, and nothing really to worry about.
hope this helps
papa
** at pete: nothing to sue for.... sheesh ;) **
On Apr 15, 9:01 am, papa smurf <jeepsm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> if you have any kind of science background, or even if you can
> remember high school chemistry, remember your atoms. you've got
> electrons, protons, neutrons, ions, molecules, etc. etc. that all
> comine together to make you what you are. many of these atoms have
> some sort of charge to them. when you enter the mri machine (correct
> me if i'm wrong guys) the magnet will line up all of your hydrogen (?)
> atoms so that they are all pointing the same direction. this is the
> neutral state, and for the sake of discussion, let's just say that
> they are pointing up. when you start hearing that loud banging, the
> scanner is changing the magnetic field in such a way that it "slams"
> down the atoms so that they are laying flat. as the atoms return to
> their neutral state, they give off an RF wave, which is picked up by
> the coil (or antenna). the coil is that mask thing that they put over
> your head.
>
> what you probabally were feeling was your atoms shifting from lying
> flat to standing up. you stated that the vibrations coinsided with
> the pulses of the scanner. each time it pulses, it slams your atoms
> back down. to me, that would make sense. it's just one of the things=
> about mri, it's normal, and nothing really to worry about.
Not meaning to beg the question but I do understand that hydrogen
atoms are magnetically polarized, released and then release energy in
the form of an RF wave. What I observed was that the muscles
(Rhomboids in particular) fired (twitched, spasmed, went into teteny)
in rhythm with the banging of the scanner (coincident events). The
vibration of my muscles was observed by the technician (real
macroscopic muscular event). It surprises me that RF waves would
acount for causing nerves to reach their firing threshold (needs
further explanation). And it surprises me that it only affected an
area of persistent pain (left side under scapula) and not both sides.
Both sides of my brain were scanned. I am looking to understand.
To the other poster. No I'm not looking to sue. You must remember
that the internet goes beyond the borders of the USA. We are not all
as litigious as you are ;)
Zack
>
> if you have any kind of science background, or even if you can
> remember high school chemistry, remember your atoms. you've got
> electrons, protons, neutrons, ions, molecules, etc. etc. that all
> comine together to make you what you are. many of these atoms have
> some sort of charge to them. when you enter the mri machine (correct
> me if i'm wrong guys) the magnet will line up all of your hydrogen (?)
> atoms so that they are all pointing the same direction. this is the
> neutral state, and for the sake of discussion, let's just say that
> they are pointing up. when you start hearing that loud banging, the
> scanner is changing the magnetic field in such a way that it "slams"
> down the atoms so that they are laying flat. as the atoms return to
> their neutral state, they give off an RF wave, which is picked up by
> the coil (or antenna). the coil is that mask thing that they put over
> your head.
>
> what you probabally were feeling was your atoms shifting from lying
> flat to standing up. you stated that the vibrations coinsided with
> the pulses of the scanner. each time it pulses, it slams your atoms
> back down. to me, that would make sense. it's just one of the things=
> about mri, it's normal, and nothing really to worry about.
Not meaning to beg the question but I do understand that hydrogen
atoms are magnetically polarized, released and then release energy in
the form of an RF wave. What I observed was that the muscles
(Rhomboids in particular) fired (twitched, spasmed, went into teteny)
in rhythm with the banging of the scanner (coincident events). The
vibration of my muscles was observed by the technician (real
macroscopic muscular event). It surprises me that RF waves would
acount for causing nerves to reach their firing threshold (needs
further explanation). And it surprises me that it only affected an
area of persistent pain (left side under scapula) and not both sides.
Both sides of my brain were scanned. I am looking to understand.
To the other poster. No I'm not looking to sue. You must remember
that the internet goes beyond the borders of the USA. We are not all
as litigious as you are ;)
Zack
Still spamming Usenet? As in:
From: "Zachary Macdonald" {tello4@icqmail.com>
Subject: Job for UK citizens.
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 14:39:56 +0900
Message-ID: {01c81fb9$bbf07d10$fca41c7c@tello4>
"zack" <zachary_macdonald@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a0acdaa7-8a3b-4015-8595-85c3732f9546@1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 9:01 am, papa smurf <jeepsm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> if you have any kind of science background, or even if you can
> remember high school chemistry, remember your atoms. you've got
> electrons, protons, neutrons, ions, molecules, etc. etc. that all
> comine together to make you what you are. many of these atoms have
> some sort of charge to them. when you enter the mri machine (correct
> me if i'm wrong guys) the magnet will line up all of your hydrogen (?)
> atoms so that they are all pointing the same direction. this is the
> neutral state, and for the sake of discussion, let's just say that
> they are pointing up. when you start hearing that loud banging, the
> scanner is changing the magnetic field in such a way that it "slams"
> down the atoms so that they are laying flat. as the atoms return to
> their neutral state, they give off an RF wave, which is picked up by
> the coil (or antenna). the coil is that mask thing that they put over
> your head.
>
> what you probabally were feeling was your atoms shifting from lying
> flat to standing up. you stated that the vibrations coinsided with
> the pulses of the scanner. each time it pulses, it slams your atoms
> back down. to me, that would make sense. it's just one of the things
> about mri, it's normal, and nothing really to worry about.
Not meaning to beg the question but I do understand that hydrogen
atoms are magnetically polarized, released and then release energy in
the form of an RF wave. What I observed was that the muscles
(Rhomboids in particular) fired (twitched, spasmed, went into teteny)
in rhythm with the banging of the scanner (coincident events). The
vibration of my muscles was observed by the technician (real
macroscopic muscular event). It surprises me that RF waves would
acount for causing nerves to reach their firing threshold (needs
further explanation). And it surprises me that it only affected an
area of persistent pain (left side under scapula) and not both sides.
Both sides of my brain were scanned. I am looking to understand.
To the other poster. No I'm not looking to sue. You must remember
that the internet goes beyond the borders of the USA. We are not all
as litigious as you are ;)
Zack
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
From: "Zachary Macdonald" {tello4@icqmail.com>
Subject: Job for UK citizens.
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 14:39:56 +0900
Message-ID: {01c81fb9$bbf07d10$fca41c7c@tello4>
"zack" <zachary_macdonald@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a0acdaa7-8a3b-4015-8595-85c3732f9546@1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 9:01 am, papa smurf <jeepsm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> if you have any kind of science background, or even if you can
> remember high school chemistry, remember your atoms. you've got
> electrons, protons, neutrons, ions, molecules, etc. etc. that all
> comine together to make you what you are. many of these atoms have
> some sort of charge to them. when you enter the mri machine (correct
> me if i'm wrong guys) the magnet will line up all of your hydrogen (?)
> atoms so that they are all pointing the same direction. this is the
> neutral state, and for the sake of discussion, let's just say that
> they are pointing up. when you start hearing that loud banging, the
> scanner is changing the magnetic field in such a way that it "slams"
> down the atoms so that they are laying flat. as the atoms return to
> their neutral state, they give off an RF wave, which is picked up by
> the coil (or antenna). the coil is that mask thing that they put over
> your head.
>
> what you probabally were feeling was your atoms shifting from lying
> flat to standing up. you stated that the vibrations coinsided with
> the pulses of the scanner. each time it pulses, it slams your atoms
> back down. to me, that would make sense. it's just one of the things
> about mri, it's normal, and nothing really to worry about.
Not meaning to beg the question but I do understand that hydrogen
atoms are magnetically polarized, released and then release energy in
the form of an RF wave. What I observed was that the muscles
(Rhomboids in particular) fired (twitched, spasmed, went into teteny)
in rhythm with the banging of the scanner (coincident events). The
vibration of my muscles was observed by the technician (real
macroscopic muscular event). It surprises me that RF waves would
acount for causing nerves to reach their firing threshold (needs
further explanation). And it surprises me that it only affected an
area of persistent pain (left side under scapula) and not both sides.
Both sides of my brain were scanned. I am looking to understand.
To the other poster. No I'm not looking to sue. You must remember
that the internet goes beyond the borders of the USA. We are not all
as litigious as you are ;)
Zack
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
zack wrote:
>
> Not meaning to beg the question but I do understand that hydrogen
> atoms are magnetically polarized, released and then release energy in
> the form of an RF wave. What I observed was that the muscles
> (Rhomboids in particular) fired (twitched, spasmed, went into teteny)
> in rhythm with the banging of the scanner (coincident events). The
> vibration of my muscles was observed by the technician (real
> macroscopic muscular event).
I'll take a shot at it, though I'm not an MRI tech either (I'm Nuc Med).
> It surprises me that RF waves would
> acount for causing nerves to reach their firing threshold (needs
> further explanation).
All nerve cells (and muscle cells) require a the electrical gradient
across the cell wall to reach a certain "threshold" before they will
"fire." This gradient is created by different amounts of positive and
negative ions on each side of the cell wall. Something must happen to
trigger a nerve cell to fire. For instance, neurotransmitters can bind
to the cell wall, causing ion channels to open and the concentration of
ions on each side of the cell wall to change. When the concentrations
have reached the threshold, the cell will "fire" and conduct an
electrical impulse down the length of the cell.
According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mri), rapidly
changing magnetic gradients created by the scanner can cause peripheral
nerve stimulation. There is no source cited for this information but it
does seem to explain your situation.
The banging of the scanner happens when the magnetic gradients are
changed. If the gradients (more accurately, the changing of the
gradients) were causing the twitching, it would make sense that it would
coincide with the banging noises.
> And it surprises me that it only affected an
> area of persistent pain (left side under scapula) and not both sides.
> Both sides of my brain were scanned. I am looking to understand.
It could be that if you're having persistent pain, the nerves
stimulating those muscles are already hypersensitive and their firing
threshold could be lower than usual. Just a somewhat-educated guess.
>
> Zack
Andrew
>
> Not meaning to beg the question but I do understand that hydrogen
> atoms are magnetically polarized, released and then release energy in
> the form of an RF wave. What I observed was that the muscles
> (Rhomboids in particular) fired (twitched, spasmed, went into teteny)
> in rhythm with the banging of the scanner (coincident events). The
> vibration of my muscles was observed by the technician (real
> macroscopic muscular event).
I'll take a shot at it, though I'm not an MRI tech either (I'm Nuc Med).
> It surprises me that RF waves would
> acount for causing nerves to reach their firing threshold (needs
> further explanation).
All nerve cells (and muscle cells) require a the electrical gradient
across the cell wall to reach a certain "threshold" before they will
"fire." This gradient is created by different amounts of positive and
negative ions on each side of the cell wall. Something must happen to
trigger a nerve cell to fire. For instance, neurotransmitters can bind
to the cell wall, causing ion channels to open and the concentration of
ions on each side of the cell wall to change. When the concentrations
have reached the threshold, the cell will "fire" and conduct an
electrical impulse down the length of the cell.
According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mri), rapidly
changing magnetic gradients created by the scanner can cause peripheral
nerve stimulation. There is no source cited for this information but it
does seem to explain your situation.
The banging of the scanner happens when the magnetic gradients are
changed. If the gradients (more accurately, the changing of the
gradients) were causing the twitching, it would make sense that it would
coincide with the banging noises.
> And it surprises me that it only affected an
> area of persistent pain (left side under scapula) and not both sides.
> Both sides of my brain were scanned. I am looking to understand.
It could be that if you're having persistent pain, the nerves
stimulating those muscles are already hypersensitive and their firing
threshold could be lower than usual. Just a somewhat-educated guess.
>
> Zack
Andrew
On Apr 15, 5:11 pm, Andrew Kerr <apk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>,,,
> The banging of the scanner happens when the magnetic gradients are
> changed. If the gradients (more accurately, the changing of the
> gradients) were causing the twitching, it would make sense that it would
> coincide with the banging noises.
>
> > And it surprises me that it only affected an
> > area of persistent pain (left side under scapula) and not both sides.
> > Both sides of my brain were scanned. I am looking to understand.
>
> It could be that if you're having persistent pain, the nerves
> stimulating those muscles are already hypersensitive and their firing
> threshold could be lower than usual. Just a somewhat-educated guess.
>
>
>
> > Zack
>
> Andrew
This specific area of twitching should then be diagnostically
significant in demonstrating hypersensitivity and hence explain pain,
inflammation and wasting muscles. The doctor having a further
correlation with my previously stated symptoms, his observations and
the objectively observed MRI experience why then are the results
unremarkable.
The subjective experience of pain is not scientifically measurable and
pain thresholds are subjectively reported and vary over time and
across the population. Given the difficulty patients have in
demonstrating the existence of pain from trauma why doesn't the
radiologist use all of the available information.
Zack
>,,,
> The banging of the scanner happens when the magnetic gradients are
> changed. If the gradients (more accurately, the changing of the
> gradients) were causing the twitching, it would make sense that it would
> coincide with the banging noises.
>
> > And it surprises me that it only affected an
> > area of persistent pain (left side under scapula) and not both sides.
> > Both sides of my brain were scanned. I am looking to understand.
>
> It could be that if you're having persistent pain, the nerves
> stimulating those muscles are already hypersensitive and their firing
> threshold could be lower than usual. Just a somewhat-educated guess.
>
>
>
> > Zack
>
> Andrew
This specific area of twitching should then be diagnostically
significant in demonstrating hypersensitivity and hence explain pain,
inflammation and wasting muscles. The doctor having a further
correlation with my previously stated symptoms, his observations and
the objectively observed MRI experience why then are the results
unremarkable.
The subjective experience of pain is not scientifically measurable and
pain thresholds are subjectively reported and vary over time and
across the population. Given the difficulty patients have in
demonstrating the existence of pain from trauma why doesn't the
radiologist use all of the available information.
Zack
On Apr 15, 1:47 pm, zack <zachary_macdon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Not meaning to beg the question but I do understand that hydrogen
> atoms are magnetically polarized, released and then release energy in
> the form of an RF wave. What I observed was that the muscles
> (Rhomboids in particular) fired (twitched, spasmed, went into teteny)
> in rhythm with the banging of the scanner (coincident events). The
> vibration of my muscles was observed by the technician (real
> macroscopic muscular event). It surprises me that RF waves would
> acount for causing nerves to reach their firing threshold (needs
> further explanation). And it surprises me that it only affected an
> area of persistent pain (left side under scapula) and not both sides.
> Both sides of my brain were scanned. I am looking to understand.
>
Nerve stimulation is not entirely unheard of during an MR scan and
will depend on how much energy (in the form of RF) is pumped into the
gradients. Most of the time this takes the form of flashing lights
caused by stimulation of the optic nerve. Stimulation of motor nerves
is less common, but entirely possible.
> Not meaning to beg the question but I do understand that hydrogen
> atoms are magnetically polarized, released and then release energy in
> the form of an RF wave. What I observed was that the muscles
> (Rhomboids in particular) fired (twitched, spasmed, went into teteny)
> in rhythm with the banging of the scanner (coincident events). The
> vibration of my muscles was observed by the technician (real
> macroscopic muscular event). It surprises me that RF waves would
> acount for causing nerves to reach their firing threshold (needs
> further explanation). And it surprises me that it only affected an
> area of persistent pain (left side under scapula) and not both sides.
> Both sides of my brain were scanned. I am looking to understand.
>
Nerve stimulation is not entirely unheard of during an MR scan and
will depend on how much energy (in the form of RF) is pumped into the
gradients. Most of the time this takes the form of flashing lights
caused by stimulation of the optic nerve. Stimulation of motor nerves
is less common, but entirely possible.
On Apr 15, 9:01 am, papa smurf <jeepsm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> what you probabally were feeling was your atoms shifting from lying
> flat to standing up. you stated that the vibrations coinsided with
> the pulses of the scanner. each time it pulses, it slams your atoms
> back down. to me, that would make sense. it's just one of the things
> about mri, it's normal, and nothing really to worry about.
>
Those vibrations are caused by the gradient coils moving back and
forth in the gantry and banging against the walls. It has nothing to
do with the atoms in your body being realigned. You wouldn't even
feel that.
To be more precise, when you are in the static magnetic field of an
MRI unit, slightly more than half of the protons in your body align
themselves with the static field. Slightly less than half of the
protons align themselves the opposite direction. The difference
results in a *net* magnetic moment aligned with the static field. The
gradient coils apply a time varying magnetic field to this net
magnetic moment causing it to change orientation depending on how long
the RF pulse is applied.
> what you probabally were feeling was your atoms shifting from lying
> flat to standing up. you stated that the vibrations coinsided with
> the pulses of the scanner. each time it pulses, it slams your atoms
> back down. to me, that would make sense. it's just one of the things
> about mri, it's normal, and nothing really to worry about.
>
Those vibrations are caused by the gradient coils moving back and
forth in the gantry and banging against the walls. It has nothing to
do with the atoms in your body being realigned. You wouldn't even
feel that.
To be more precise, when you are in the static magnetic field of an
MRI unit, slightly more than half of the protons in your body align
themselves with the static field. Slightly less than half of the
protons align themselves the opposite direction. The difference
results in a *net* magnetic moment aligned with the static field. The
gradient coils apply a time varying magnetic field to this net
magnetic moment causing it to change orientation depending on how long
the RF pulse is applied.
