Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)

Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)


I posted this to Sci.Med and was referred here...


In a recent X-ray for a shoulder problem, the orthopedist noticed
osteopenia/osteoprosis and for the last few years, my glucose tests
have been borderline.
At 63, this is the first time I've heard this
and I'm trying to fathom why, since I don' t meet most of the risk
factors (genetics aside). Here is what I've come up with, and some
minor searching efforts (on the Web) seem to support, at least
somewhat, my conclusions. Of course, the searching method probably
biases the results.

I exercise regularly and have been doing so for 50 yrs.I've replaced
running with NordicTrack since 1987. I don't lift weights anymore. I
stand up much at work and walk there as well (lab scientist). I eat at
lowfat, high fiber diet that includes yogurt, skim milk, salads,
seafood, pasta, the occassional steak and have been interested in
nutrition since I was old enough to make my own decisions about food.
Adelle Davis was my guru. I put wheat germ and oat bran on my Kashi
Crunch/yogurt breakfast. My habits evolve as I read new info about
nutrition/ health that make some scientific sense (I'm a scientist).

1. For many years I've been on chronic aciphex (ppi) treatment for
indigestion. I believe it is a 24 hr. time release pill. It's made my
life much more enjoyable.

2. I try to eat a lot of fiber.

I may be disrupting Ca++ absorption by having killed HCl production in
my gut. Too much fiber may also prevent absorption of some minerals.
Though I take a multivitamin, I haven't been taking calcium
supplements or extra vitamin D in the Winter months.
I've stopped taking the 24 hr. Aciphex pill, and have gone back to the
late night H2 antagonist Axid ( I have a shitload of this pill I
stopped taking when I switched to Aciphex). I figured this would allow
more normal acid levels during most of the day. This info is all knew
and I will discuss it with my physician probably this coming week. I'm
being proactive ovah heah. I'm aware of some studies relating ppi's
to increased hip fractures, soda pop being implicated in bone loss
(grain of salt subs. here). I drink 2 (diet) cans a day though I've
cut back.
Comments? Intelligent ones?
p.s. expect I will die someday of something beyond my control no
matter how pristine my habits are (did I mention beer, single malt,
and the occassional stogie and pipefull?)

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)

finding z0 wrote:
> I posted this to Sci.Med and was referred here...
>
>
> In a recent X-ray for a shoulder problem, the orthopedist noticed
> osteopenia/osteoprosis and for the last few years, my glucose tests
> have been borderline.
> At 63, this is the first time I've heard this
> and I'm trying to fathom why, since I don' t meet most of the risk
> factors (genetics aside). Here is what I've come up with, and some
> minor searching efforts (on the Web) seem to support, at least
> somewhat, my conclusions. Of course, the searching method probably
> biases the results.
>
> I exercise regularly and have been doing so for 50 yrs.I've replaced
> running with NordicTrack since 1987. I don't lift weights anymore. I
> stand up much at work and walk there as well (lab scientist). I eat at
> lowfat, high fiber diet that includes yogurt, skim milk, salads,
> seafood, pasta, the occassional steak and have been interested in
> nutrition since I was old enough to make my own decisions about food.
> Adelle Davis was my guru. I put wheat germ and oat bran on my Kashi
> Crunch/yogurt breakfast. My habits evolve as I read new info about
> nutrition/ health that make some scientific sense (I'm a scientist).
>
> 1. For many years I've been on chronic aciphex (ppi) treatment for
> indigestion. I believe it is a 24 hr. time release pill. It's made my
> life much more enjoyable.
>
> 2. I try to eat a lot of fiber.
>
> I may be disrupting Ca++ absorption by having killed HCl production in
> my gut. Too much fiber may also prevent absorption of some minerals.

I agree with these thoughts. In addition, oat bran is very acid forming and
that might have an adverse effect on bone.

> Though I take a multivitamin, I haven't been taking calcium
> supplements or extra vitamin D in the Winter months.

I think that you should do it. Calcium and a sufficient dose (at least 25
mcg, preferrably more) of vitamin D do reduce the risk of fractures. I
advice you not to take cod liver oil as that contains too much vitamin A
in relation to vitamin D.

> I've stopped taking the 24 hr. Aciphex pill, and have gone back to the
> late night H2 antagonist Axid ( I have a shitload of this pill I
> stopped taking when I switched to Aciphex). I figured this would allow
> more normal acid levels during most of the day. This info is all knew
> and I will discuss it with my physician probably this coming week. I'm
> being proactive ovah heah. I'm aware of some studies relating ppi's
> to increased hip fractures, soda pop being implicated in bone loss
> (grain of salt subs. here). I drink 2 (diet) cans a day though I've
> cut back.

Are you aware that cola drinks are especially harmful for bonehealth, other
sodas are less so. Green tea and mineral waters would be good substitutes
for soda. There is some evidence that these drinks are beneficial for bone
mineral density.

> Comments? Intelligent ones?
> p.s. expect I will die someday of something beyond my control no
> matter how pristine my habits are

I guess that will happen to most of us. ;-)

> (did I mention beer, single malt,
> and the occassional stogie and pipefull?)

Light beer drinking might actually be benefial for bone mineral density as
beer contains silicon in a well soluble form. That is certainly more
healthful for bone health than drinking soda. Non-alcoholic beer is
certainly one option although light to moderate alcohol consumption is not
harmful to bone health.

I suggest that you check the previous postings in this group. There might be
some useful information for you, too. Consider supplementing with magnesium
(200-300 mg/day), zinc (20-30 mg), boron (3 mg) and vitamin C (500 mg) in
addition to calcium and vitamin D.

--
Juhana

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)

finding z0 wrote:

> In a recent X-ray for a shoulder problem, the orthopedist noticed
> osteopenia/osteoprosis

Have you had a DEXA measurement of your bone mineral density? If not, I
think that you should as that is the gold standard for osteoporosis
diagnoses.

--
Juhana

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)

On Jul 8, 2:53 pm, "Juhana Harju" <n...@mail.fi> wrote:
> finding z0 wrote:
> > In a recent X-ray for a shoulder problem, the orthopedist noticed
> > osteopenia/osteoprosis
>
> Have you had a DEXA measurement of your bone mineral density? If not, I
> think that you should as that is the gold standard for osteoporosis
> diagnoses.
>
> --
> Juhana

MRI was done to follow up the X-ray.I will hear more from the MD this
coming week.

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)


"finding z0" <jsk2@excite . com > wrote in message
news:1183925876.258344.268710@k79g2000hse.googlegroups . com ...
> On Jul 8, 2:53 pm, "Juhana Harju" <n...@mail.fi> wrote:
>> finding z0 wrote:
>> > In a recent X-ray for a shoulder problem, the orthopedist noticed
>> > osteopenia/osteoprosis
>>
>> Have you had a DEXA measurement of your bone mineral density? If not, I
>> think that you should as that is the gold standard for osteoporosis
>> diagnoses.
>>
>> --
>> Juhana
>
> MRI was done to follow up the X-ray.I will hear more from the MD this
> coming week.
>

1) an x-ray can't be used to diagnose Osteopenia/Osteoporosis because
it isn't calibrated properly. If the doctor has been using it long enough,
s/he may be able to read it well enough to recognize the likelihood of
low bone density. In that case, a DEXA should be used to confirm the
diagnosis.

2) If Osteopenia/Osteoporosis is confirmed, you should probably see an
Endocrinologist that has patients with low bone density so that medical
causes can be screened out.

3) I don't know if Aciphex interfers with Calcium absorbtion. My
history (male, first diagnosed with Osteopenia 9 years ago, no
cause found):

a) I've been taking Aciphex for approximately 10 years.

b) I took Fosamax for 3 to 4 years (A follow-up DEXA wasn't
administered properly, and it indicated I was losing bone density).

c) I take calcium (around 1260 mg/day, in two doses);
magnesium (1000 mg/day, in two doses);
zinc (100 mg/day, in two doses); and
boron (3 mg/day).

My doctor recommended less calcium, but after reading about all
of the things that could reduce calcium absorbtion, I decided the
easiest thing to do was compensate by taking extra calcium.

d) After being diagnosed with Osteopenia, I took up weight lifting
(prior to that, I had done a fair amount of hiking and bicycling,
but no weight lifting). I made sure that my workout included
pushing exercises that stressed most of my skeleton (I decided
that I didn't want to come up with an exercise that had me
pushing against something with my head, so I am only getting
my shoulders down to my feet. My neck and head are on their
own.)

e) My last DEXA (in April) showed I had an average bone density;
I am not considered Osteopeniac any longer.

If you are diagnosed with Osteopenia/Osteoporosis, no medical
conditions are found, and you want to fight it, keep the following in
mind:

1) Start as quickly as you can - the older you get, the slower your
body is to heal, get stronger, increase bone density, or a lot of
other things (you get the idea, I'm sure).

2) Your will, at most, adapt to whatever level of stress you place
on it and no more. If all you do is walk, that is all your body
will adapt to. Jumping off the roof (which places more stress
on the skeleton) is a bad idea.

3) Assuming no medical issues and proper nutrition, the bones
increase bone density when they are stressed enough to
microscopically bend. That changes the bone's electrical
field, which attracts calcium ions. When you do something,
one of three things will happen to your bones: a) nothing -
your bones are already adapted to that level of stress; they
didn't bend, and no additional density is desired. b) they
will bend microscopically and attract more calcium in an
attempt to adapt to the stress. c) the stress will be too much
more than they are adapted to and instead of absorbing the
stress by bending, they will break.

This suggests that in order to increase bone density, you
need to gradually increase the stress, allowing the bones
to adapt to the increased level of stress prior to increasing
it again.

4) Your bone doesn't have eyes. It doesn't know if you jumped
up and down or did a leg press. All it "knows" is that it
wasn't stressed, was stressed a little, or was stressed too much.

Choose an activity (or activities) that you like and will do long
term. If I told you the perfect exercise to increase bone density
and you refused to do it because you didn't like it, it would be
worthless to you.

If you like it, do serious weight lifting (continually work on
increasing the amount of weight you can lift). If that isn't an
activity that you like, choose one that you do. Walk (walking
on a hard surface is better for your bones than a soft surface
because of the additional impact. Your joints may not agree.
Walking downhill is better than uphill for the same reason).
Jog. Run. Jump (note: jumping rope won't help much - most
people learn to lift their feet just high enough to clear the rope,
and that doesn't create enough stress).

Good luck,

Art

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)

Art S wrote:

> c) I take calcium (around 1260 mg/day, in two doses);
> magnesium (1000 mg/day, in two doses);
> zinc (100 mg/day, in two doses); and
> boron (3 mg/day).
>
> My doctor recommended less calcium, but after reading about
> all of the things that could reduce calcium absorbtion, I
> decided the easiest thing to do was compensate by taking
> extra calcium.

Don't you supplement with vitamin D? That would greatly increase the
absorption of calcium and reduce the risk of fractures. Calcium without
adequate vitamin D does very little or nothing to prevent fracture risk.
With additional vitamin D you could reduce your calcium dose and that in
turn should reduce your risk of prostate cancer.

I suspect your high dose of zinc might lead to copper deficiency if you take
that much zinc without additional copper. That is the reason I supplement
with a much lower dose (22 mg in zinc picolinate form) of zinc. I also
suspect that your dose of magnesium is too high.

--
Juhana

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)


"Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in message news:5fdo5qF3ci0t9U1@mid.individual . net ...
> Art S wrote:
>
>> c) I take calcium (around 1260 mg/day, in two doses);
>> magnesium (1000 mg/day, in two doses);
>> zinc (100 mg/day, in two doses); and
>> boron (3 mg/day).
>>
>> My doctor recommended less calcium, but after reading about
>> all of the things that could reduce calcium absorbtion, I
>> decided the easiest thing to do was compensate by taking
>> extra calcium.
>
> Don't you supplement with vitamin D? That would greatly increase the absorption of calcium and
> reduce the risk of fractures. Calcium without adequate vitamin D does very little or nothing to
> prevent fracture risk. With additional vitamin D you could reduce your calcium dose and that in
> turn should reduce your risk of prostate cancer.
>

I normally have one cup of milk per day, which has some Vitamin D. The
calcium pills also have some vitamin D. That's it.

> I suspect your high dose of zinc might lead to copper deficiency if you take that much zinc
> without additional copper. That is the reason I supplement with a much lower dose (22 mg in zinc
> picolinate form) of zinc. I also suspect that your dose of magnesium is too high.
>

Could be. I haven't noticed anything.

Art

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)


"Art S" <thedabbler02@earthlink . net > wrote in message
news:xwjki.5730$tj6.2330@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink . net ...
>
> "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in message news:5fdo5qF3ci0t9U1@mid.individual . net ...
>> Art S wrote:
>>
>>> c) I take calcium (around 1260 mg/day, in two doses);
>>> magnesium (1000 mg/day, in two doses);
>>> zinc (100 mg/day, in two doses); and
>>> boron (3 mg/day).
>>>
>>> My doctor recommended less calcium, but after reading about
>>> all of the things that could reduce calcium absorbtion, I
>>> decided the easiest thing to do was compensate by taking
>>> extra calcium.
>>
>> Don't you supplement with vitamin D? That would greatly increase the absorption of calcium and
>> reduce the risk of fractures. Calcium without adequate vitamin D does very little or nothing to
>> prevent fracture risk. With additional vitamin D you could reduce your calcium dose and that in
>> turn should reduce your risk of prostate cancer.
>>
>
> I normally have one cup of milk per day, which has some Vitamin D. The
> calcium pills also have some vitamin D. That's it.
>
For about half the year, I'm able to walk one - two miles outside wearing shorts and a
T-shirt. And I'm in Las Vegas. So for that part of the year, I probably get plenty of
Vitamin D. At the moment (10:20 pm), it is 97F. During the day it was 115F. I won't
be doing much walking for a few months.

>> I suspect your high dose of zinc might lead to copper deficiency if you take that much zinc
>> without additional copper. That is the reason I supplement with a much lower dose (22 mg in zinc
>> picolinate form) of zinc. I also suspect that your dose of magnesium is too high.
>>
>
> Could be. I haven't noticed anything.
>
> Art
>
>

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)

Art S wrote:
> "Art S" <thedabbler02@earthlink . net > wrote in message
> news:xwjki.5730$tj6.2330@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink . net ...
>> "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi> wrote in message
>> news:5fdo5qF3ci0t9U1@mid.individual . net ...
>>> Art S wrote:
>>>
>>>> c) I take calcium (around 1260 mg/day, in two doses);
>>>> magnesium (1000 mg/day, in two doses);
>>>> zinc (100 mg/day, in two doses); and
>>>> boron (3 mg/day).
>>>>
>>>> My doctor recommended less calcium, but after reading
>>>> about all of the things that could reduce calcium
>>>> absorbtion, I decided the easiest thing to do was
>>>> compensate by taking extra calcium.
>>>
>>> Don't you supplement with vitamin D? That would greatly increase
>>> the absorption of calcium and reduce the risk of fractures. Calcium
>>> without adequate vitamin D does very little or nothing to prevent
>>> fracture risk. With additional vitamin D you could reduce your
>>> calcium dose and that in turn should reduce your risk of prostate
>>> cancer.
>>
>> I normally have one cup of milk per day, which has some Vitamin D. The
>> calcium pills also have some vitamin D. That's it.
>>
> For about half the year, I'm able to walk one - two miles outside
> wearing shorts and a T-shirt. And I'm in Las Vegas. So for that
> part of the year, I probably get plenty of Vitamin D. At the moment
> (10:20 pm), it is 97F. During the day it was 115F. I won't be doing
> much walking for a few months.

Have your serum vitamin D levels [25(OH)D] levels been assessed? Ideally the
dose of vitamin D supplementation should be based on these levels. Vitamin D
levels can be low despite of abundant sun exposure:

* jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/92/6/2130

>>> I suspect your high dose of zinc might lead to copper deficiency if
>>> you take that much zinc without additional copper. That is the
>>> reason I supplement with a much lower dose (22 mg in zinc
>>> picolinate form) of zinc. I also suspect that your dose of
>>> magnesium is too high.
>>
>> Could be. I haven't noticed anything.

--
Juhana

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)

"Art S" <thedabbler02@earthlink . net > wrote in message
news:SBjki.5731$tj6.2712@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink . net ...
>
> For about half the year, I'm able to walk one - two miles outside wearing
> shorts and a
> T-shirt. And I'm in Las Vegas. So for that part of the year, I probably
> get plenty of
> Vitamin D. At the moment (10:20 pm), it is 97F. During the day it was
> 115F. I won't
> be doing much walking for a few months.
>

Isn't there any place you can walk inside? Many areas have mall-walking
groups. Is there a local Y? Community rec/gym center? Check your local
agencies (govt & non-profit) concerned with aging; also hospital rehab
centers may know of some resources.
bj

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)


"bj" <bjones44@bellatlantic . net > wrote in message news:Hjrki.776$mS3.624@trnddc03...
> "Art S" <thedabbler02@earthlink . net > wrote in message
> news:SBjki.5731$tj6.2712@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink . net ...
>>
>> For about half the year, I'm able to walk one - two miles outside wearing shorts and a
>> T-shirt. And I'm in Las Vegas. So for that part of the year, I probably get plenty of
>> Vitamin D. At the moment (10:20 pm), it is 97F. During the day it was 115F. I won't
>> be doing much walking for a few months.
>>
>
> Isn't there any place you can walk inside? Many areas have mall-walking groups. Is there a local
> Y? Community rec/gym center? Check your local agencies (govt & non-profit) concerned with aging;
> also hospital rehab centers may know of some resources.
> bj
>

I can - and do - walk at the gym, but that won't help with Vitamin D.

Art

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)

"Art S" <thedabbler02@earthlink . net > wrote in message
news:Fbski.6046$Od7.2892@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink . net ...
>
> "bj" <bjones44@bellatlantic . net > wrote in message
> news:Hjrki.776$mS3.624@trnddc03...
>> "Art S" <thedabbler02@earthlink . net > wrote in message
>> news:SBjki.5731$tj6.2712@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink . net ...
>>>
>>> For about half the year, I'm able to walk one - two miles outside
>>> wearing shorts and a
>>> T-shirt. And I'm in Las Vegas. So for that part of the year, I
>>> probably get plenty of
>>> Vitamin D. At the moment (10:20 pm), it is 97F. During the day it was
>>> 115F. I won't
>>> be doing much walking for a few months.
>>>
>>
>> Isn't there any place you can walk inside? Many areas have mall-walking
>> groups. Is there a local Y? Community rec/gym center? Check your local
>> agencies (govt & non-profit) concerned with aging; also hospital rehab
>> centers may know of some resources.
>> bj
>>
>
> I can - and do - walk at the gym, but that won't help with Vitamin D.
>

Can't you just take pills for that?
bj

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)

On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 06:25:45 +0300, "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi>
wrote:


>I also
>suspect that your dose of magnesium is too high.

I gather that too much magnesium is easy to notice. It involves too
many or too sudden and / or messy trips to the bathroom.

Nice to have one thing that's pretty consistent to figure out.
--

r.bc: vixen
Minnow goddess, Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher.
Almost entirely harmless. Really.

* w w w .visi . com /~cyli

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)

Cyli wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 06:25:45 +0300, "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi>
> wrote:
>
>> I also
>> suspect that your dose of magnesium is too high.
>
> I gather that too much magnesium is easy to notice. It involves too
> many or too sudden and / or messy trips to the bathroom.

An excerpt:

"Toxicity

Adverse effects have not been identified from magnesium occurring naturally
in food. However, adverse effects from excess magnesium have been observed
with intakes of various magnesium salts (supplemental magnesium). The
initial symptom of excess magnesium supplementation is diarrhea--a
well-known side effect of magnesium that is used therapeutically as a
laxative. Individuals with impaired kidney function are at higher risk for
adverse effects from magnesium supplementation, and symptoms of magnesium
toxicity have occurred in people with impaired kidney function taking
moderate doses of magnesium-containing laxatives or antacids. Elevated serum
levels of magnesium (hypermagnesemia) may result in a fall in blood pressure
(hypotension). Some of the later effects of magnesium toxicity, such as
lethargy, confusion, disturbances in normal cardiac rhythm, and
deterioration of kidney function, are related to severe hypotension. As
hypermagnesemia progresses, muscle weakness and difficulty breathing may
occur. Severe hypermagnesemia may result in cardiac arrest (2, 4). The Food
and Nutrition Board (FNB) of the Institute of Medicine set the tolerable
upper level (UL) for supplemental magnesium intake in generally healthy
adolescents and adults at 350 mg/day. This UL represents the highest level
of daily supplemental magnesium intake likely to pose no risk of diarrhea or
gastrointestinal disturbance in almost all individuals. The FNB cautions
that individuals with renal impairment are at higher risk of adverse effects
from excess supplemental magnesium intake. However, the FNB also notes that
there are some conditions, which may warrant higher doses of magnesium under
medical supervision (4)."

* lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/magnesium/

Usually that is a very good and reliable site, IMHO.

--
Juhana

Re: Fact gathering about osteoporosis in older men (e.g., me)

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:16:08 +0300, "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi>
wrote:

>Cyli wrote:
>> On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 06:25:45 +0300, "Juhana Harju" <nope@mail.fi>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I also
>>> suspect that your dose of magnesium is too high.
>>
>> I gather that too much magnesium is easy to notice. It involves too
>> many or too sudden and / or messy trips to the bathroom.
>
>An excerpt:
>
>"Toxicity
>
>Adverse effects have not been identified from magnesium occurring naturally
>in food. However, adverse effects from excess magnesium have been observed
>with intakes of various magnesium salts (supplemental magnesium). The
>initial symptom of excess magnesium supplementation is diarrhea-

Uh huh. I thought I said that, albeit in smaller words.

And people who know they have impaired kidney function should be
checking with their doctors before they take any supplements and
should keep the doctor up to date on their general dietary habits.

Or were you just trying to add to my point, rather than trying to
invalidate it?
--

r.bc: vixen
Minnow goddess, Speaker to squirrels, willow watcher.
Almost entirely harmless. Really.

* w w w .visi . com /~cyli