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Monitoring pH to encourage bone regrowth
Monitoring pH to encourage bone regrowth
I am grateful to have found this newsgroup, with its high level discourse
and its unselfish sharing of quality information. It has been a great help
to me for the past 10 months.
What follows is an extensive case history, my treatment regimen, and a
request for your advice.
DIAGNOSIS
I am male, 68 years old, of Scandinavian descent, 6'3" tall (1.9 meters),
151 pounds (68 kg). BMI = 18.9. I live in northern California.
I am active for my age. My routine includes fifteen minutes of bends,
stretches and calisthenics in the morning. Before retiring in May 2007, I
used to walk 2 miles at lunchtime most days, and on the weekends I either
worked on our 40 acres or hiked the trails up into the hills behind the
house, easily climbing 400 ft in elevation or more.
As a retiree, I continue to get outside daily, lately making new trails.
With warmer weather, I will be clearing brush, cutting firewood, and doing
other chores in place of some of the hiking.
I had been found to be low on testosterone in 2006. This was certainly
showing up in libido, and I had been wondering if it would show up in my
skeleton as well. So in March 2007 I had a baseline DEXA scan, which showed
that I have severe osteoporosis of the spine and osteopenia of the femurs:
Spine: T-Score -4.1; Z-Score -3.5
Dual Femur (mean): T-Score -2.4; Z-Score -1.7.)
The diagnosis blindsided me. I had been getting in firewood for weeks, and
had just processed a 100-foot tall, 3 foot diameter Douglas fir. I'd been
chain-sawing the log on an awkward hillside, banging away on steel wedges
with my 12-pound maul to split the rounds down, wheel-barrowing 35 loads 250
ft to my woodshed, cutting and burning the slash. How could I have done all
that with fragile bones?
RESPONSE TO DIAGNOSIS
I became an osteoporotic cripple for a couple of weeks, until I decided that
perhaps my bones weren't about to crack, in spite of the diagnosis. Since
then I have carried on as usual, except that I am careful to hold the
railing when going down stairs. We haven't gone skiing yet this winter, and
I am not decided whether I want to. (Besides, we now have grandkids to
visit on the weekends.)
On a follow-up visit, my doc prescribed Fosamax and told me to eat cheese
and drink milk. By then I had done some research. I asked him about the
acidifying properties of milk and cheese. He was unaware of any connection.
I decided to ignore his dietary recommendations. Averse to medications and
unwilling to risk osteonecrosis, I also decided to forego the medication.
Instead, I gave myself one year to try to begin rebuilding bone by other
means.
I found a nutritionist nearby who claimed to have experience with people
with osteoporosis. She too appeared ignorant of acid/alkaline foods, and
ended up giving me her standard fact sheet with the same dietary
recommendations she gives to all her clients, except that she crossed off
the 60 gm of protein daily and said I should eat yogurt and cheese and get
75 gm of protein a day. I decided to ignore her recommendations as well.
I should say that my wife and I are very health conscious, and eat organic
food almost entirely. But these professionals just did not seem to be well
informed on osteoporosis.
I am trained as a chemist, and understand perfectly how the body would pull
calcium out of bones if it were needed to buffer the internal environment.
I decided to study the lists of acidifying and alkalinizing foods on the
Web, and modify my diet accordingly. I would also put an increased emphasis
on weight bearing exercise.
I studied labels on my multivitamin, and found that the tablets that I had
taken for years (Centrum Silver) contained only 400 IU of Vitamin D
(cholecalciferol). I have had a couple of skin cancers removed, so have
been very careful to avoid direct sunlight, thus losing the Vitamin D that I
might have received while outdoors. I am now supplementing with an
additional 800 IU of Vitamin D.
Each tablet also contains 200 mg of calcium. I now supplement this with an
additional 1000 mg, as calcium carbonate.
The tablet contains 100 mg of magnesium. The combined D-Ca-Mg supplement
contains 500 mg of magnesium. I split the calcium/magnesium/Vitamin D pill
and take halves in the morning and evening. I take the multivitamin at
midday.
I believe that insufficient Vitamin D was a major part of the cause of my
osteoporosis. I was getting 1/3 or 1/2 cup of dried organic milk daily, but
it was non-fat. I don't know if it contained Vitamin D or not, since it
lacked the fat to carry it.
DIET
I also saw an orthopedist who had once treated me for a wrist problem. He
mentioned the undesirability of relying on milk and cheese for the treatment
of osteoporosis, stating that the acidity produced by the protein would work
against the calcium. He pointed me to the work of Dr. John McDougall.
My wife and I had read McDougall's books years ago. He had thrown off his
standard medical thinking after working with Asian farmers on remote
Hawaiian farms. He attributed their remarkable health to their diets of
vegetables and grains. This was during our vegetarian years, and I found
that we were already eating in his style, except that I did take dairy foods
and, on occasion, meat/fish/fowl.
I studied Dr. McDougall's web site ( http :// www .drmcdougall,com ), including
the archived copies of his newsletter. He maintains that the American diet
contains far too much protein. He said that protein malnutrition is
extremely rare in the U.S., and that, in fact, it is hard for vegetarians to
get insufficient protein.
He recommends a vegan diet with 15 grams of protein a day. I studied the
labels and found that two small slices of whole grain bread and two
tablespoons of almond butter contained 14 gm protein between them. At that
point I stopped worrying about getting enough protein on a vegan diet. I
dropped meat and dairy, thereby becoming a vegan. (I'm not doctrinaire; I
do partake of flesh when away from home, though rarely. I will have pizza
in spite of the cheese, if that's what is served.)
I want to be sure to get all of the essential amino acids. My solution is
to get complimentary protein, by eating some grains and some mung bean
sprouts every day.
MONITORING pH
I began to notice that various lists of acidifying and alkalinizing foods
didn't agree with one another. The last straw was when I read Vasey's "The
Acid Alkaline Diet". He states that millet is very acidifying, whereas the
information on the Web all indicated that millet was the only grain that was
not acidifying.
I decided to keep a complete food log, with the times of eating each meal,
and to monitor my urinary pH with three readings a day: morning, afternoon
and evening. This would allow me to see the effects of various foods, and
thus to avoid those that would work against me.
I ordered several months' supply of "pH Stix" from pH Ion Nutrition
(www .pH-ion,com ). They come in little packets of 80 little plastic strips
with two colored panels at the tip that react to acidity.
I find the system very easy to use. You simply dip the tip of the stick
into a sample of urine and compare the resulting colors to a reference chart
to read the pH.
As you probably know, a neutral environment has a pH of 7.0. The
recommended range for rebuilding bone is from slightly acid (6.75) to
slightly alkaline (7.25). Over the past six months, my morning, afternoon
and evening readings (as recorded in a spreadsheet) have averaged 7.0, 7.0
and 6.9, respectively.
pH VS. FOOD INTAKE
My food logs now go back more than six months, and I would like to share
what I have learned.
I have concluded, first, that Vasey was wrong. Millet is absolutely not
"very acidifying". I eat half a cup of either millet, quinoa, or amaranth
every morning, and stay nicely neutral on any of them.
Second, protein is what I call an "acid bomb." I can see this clearly in my
data. As a chemist, I attribute that to its nitrogen content. There has to
be some reason why some foods are more acidifying than others, and this is
the best explanation that I have been able to come up with.
Third, the protein bomb "detonates" with a delayed reaction, anywhere from
18 to 36 hours. It took me months to pinpoint this effect, and now the
readings make much more sense.
For example, after a Sunday dinner of Chinese food with chicken, the Monday's
readings may look nicely neutral, but the acidity will show up on Tuesday,
and linger for awhile.
With this insight, I have even started predicting when the acidity will kick
in.
MENU
(Fast forward through this section if you're not interested in dietary
details.)
Typical breakfast:
1/2 cup grain (millet, quinoa or amaranth), cooked in the microwave
1 Tbsp raisins
1 Tbsp canola oil (just to keep from losing weight)
2 tbsp flaxseeds, freshly ground
1 tbsp wheat germ
2 tbsp sunflower seeds
1 tbsp pumpkin seeds
Optional: fruit (1 cup seedless grapes, 1/2 diced apple)
Typical lunch/dinner (briefly pressure cooked; good for four or five meals):
1 winter squash with the rind cut off, cut in chunks
3 tablespoons of oat grains (look like rice or barley)
2/3 bunch Dino kale, cut up
1 large zucchini cut in disks
1/3 head cabbage, chopped
4 ribs celery, chopped
2-1/2 medium yellow onions, cut in disks and separated into rings
1 small head cauliflower, cut into florets
1 medium carrot, cut in strips
10 smallish yellow potatoes, with skins
1 medium sweet potato, with skin
1/2 cup of extra virgin organic olive oil
1/2 cup mung beans, sprouted
Typical fruit salad:
2 oranges
2 apples
3 bananas
1/2 can crushed pineapple (20 oz can)
3 Tbsp raisins
2 medium carrots, grated
3 ribs celery, grated
Daily snack, at intervals, whenever
(Cut up and kept at the ready)
4 carrots
3 ribs celery
1 rutabaga
1/2 apple
Misc. as desired
Brazil nuts or almonds, raw
Green salad
1/2 cup popping corn (not acidifying!), 1 Tbsp coconut oil
These foods are all nicely neutral as to pH. I can happily eat the same
things day after day. This makes it possible to eat some of a suspected
acidifying food and watch for its effects.
To be honest, I have not spent as much time analyzing the results as I might
have. Right now I suspect that wheat bread is quite acidifying, and I avoid
it; the only wheat I get on a regular basis is the daily wheat germ in the
breakfast.
QUESTIONS
If any of you have read this far, thank you. Could you share your expertise
with me?
--I have not seen any mention of the pH monitoring approach in the last
nine months of postings. Is anybody else trying to rebuild bone by
maintaining the optimal acidity of the body? Any luck?
--I just learned that my Vitamin D 25 OH reading was 28 ng/mL (yes, mL),
and optimum is 35 ng/mL. Yet I am taking 3x the RDA. How would you
recommend that I increase that, and would there be a danger of taking too
much Vitamin D?
--I go in for my next DEXA scan in March. Would you care to hazard a
prediction of how it will go, based on what I have written here? I'll let
the group know when the results come in.
CONCLUSION
I am surprised that it is so difficult to know how best to adjust diet and
vitamins for optimal bone health, taking into account one's particular risk
factors (testosterone, age, weight, ancestry, latitude).
I am very grateful for this group. Thank you all.
I am grateful to have found this newsgroup, with its high level discourse
and its unselfish sharing of quality information. It has been a great help
to me for the past 10 months.
What follows is an extensive case history, my treatment regimen, and a
request for your advice.
DIAGNOSIS
I am male, 68 years old, of Scandinavian descent, 6'3" tall (1.9 meters),
151 pounds (68 kg). BMI = 18.9. I live in northern California.
I am active for my age. My routine includes fifteen minutes of bends,
stretches and calisthenics in the morning. Before retiring in May 2007, I
used to walk 2 miles at lunchtime most days, and on the weekends I either
worked on our 40 acres or hiked the trails up into the hills behind the
house, easily climbing 400 ft in elevation or more.
As a retiree, I continue to get outside daily, lately making new trails.
With warmer weather, I will be clearing brush, cutting firewood, and doing
other chores in place of some of the hiking.
I had been found to be low on testosterone in 2006. This was certainly
showing up in libido, and I had been wondering if it would show up in my
skeleton as well. So in March 2007 I had a baseline DEXA scan, which showed
that I have severe osteoporosis of the spine and osteopenia of the femurs:
Spine: T-Score -4.1; Z-Score -3.5
Dual Femur (mean): T-Score -2.4; Z-Score -1.7.)
The diagnosis blindsided me. I had been getting in firewood for weeks, and
had just processed a 100-foot tall, 3 foot diameter Douglas fir. I'd been
chain-sawing the log on an awkward hillside, banging away on steel wedges
with my 12-pound maul to split the rounds down, wheel-barrowing 35 loads 250
ft to my woodshed, cutting and burning the slash. How could I have done all
that with fragile bones?
RESPONSE TO DIAGNOSIS
I became an osteoporotic cripple for a couple of weeks, until I decided that
perhaps my bones weren't about to crack, in spite of the diagnosis. Since
then I have carried on as usual, except that I am careful to hold the
railing when going down stairs. We haven't gone skiing yet this winter, and
I am not decided whether I want to. (Besides, we now have grandkids to
visit on the weekends.)
On a follow-up visit, my doc prescribed Fosamax and told me to eat cheese
and drink milk. By then I had done some research. I asked him about the
acidifying properties of milk and cheese. He was unaware of any connection.
I decided to ignore his dietary recommendations. Averse to medications and
unwilling to risk osteonecrosis, I also decided to forego the medication.
Instead, I gave myself one year to try to begin rebuilding bone by other
means.
I found a nutritionist nearby who claimed to have experience with people
with osteoporosis. She too appeared ignorant of acid/alkaline foods, and
ended up giving me her standard fact sheet with the same dietary
recommendations she gives to all her clients, except that she crossed off
the 60 gm of protein daily and said I should eat yogurt and cheese and get
75 gm of protein a day. I decided to ignore her recommendations as well.
I should say that my wife and I are very health conscious, and eat organic
food almost entirely. But these professionals just did not seem to be well
informed on osteoporosis.
I am trained as a chemist, and understand perfectly how the body would pull
calcium out of bones if it were needed to buffer the internal environment.
I decided to study the lists of acidifying and alkalinizing foods on the
Web, and modify my diet accordingly. I would also put an increased emphasis
on weight bearing exercise.
I studied labels on my multivitamin, and found that the tablets that I had
taken for years (Centrum Silver) contained only 400 IU of Vitamin D
(cholecalciferol). I have had a couple of skin cancers removed, so have
been very careful to avoid direct sunlight, thus losing the Vitamin D that I
might have received while outdoors. I am now supplementing with an
additional 800 IU of Vitamin D.
Each tablet also contains 200 mg of calcium. I now supplement this with an
additional 1000 mg, as calcium carbonate.
The tablet contains 100 mg of magnesium. The combined D-Ca-Mg supplement
contains 500 mg of magnesium. I split the calcium/magnesium/Vitamin D pill
and take halves in the morning and evening. I take the multivitamin at
midday.
I believe that insufficient Vitamin D was a major part of the cause of my
osteoporosis. I was getting 1/3 or 1/2 cup of dried organic milk daily, but
it was non-fat. I don't know if it contained Vitamin D or not, since it
lacked the fat to carry it.
DIET
I also saw an orthopedist who had once treated me for a wrist problem. He
mentioned the undesirability of relying on milk and cheese for the treatment
of osteoporosis, stating that the acidity produced by the protein would work
against the calcium. He pointed me to the work of Dr. John McDougall.
My wife and I had read McDougall's books years ago. He had thrown off his
standard medical thinking after working with Asian farmers on remote
Hawaiian farms. He attributed their remarkable health to their diets of
vegetables and grains. This was during our vegetarian years, and I found
that we were already eating in his style, except that I did take dairy foods
and, on occasion, meat/fish/fowl.
I studied Dr. McDougall's web site ( http :// www .drmcdougall,com ), including
the archived copies of his newsletter. He maintains that the American diet
contains far too much protein. He said that protein malnutrition is
extremely rare in the U.S., and that, in fact, it is hard for vegetarians to
get insufficient protein.
He recommends a vegan diet with 15 grams of protein a day. I studied the
labels and found that two small slices of whole grain bread and two
tablespoons of almond butter contained 14 gm protein between them. At that
point I stopped worrying about getting enough protein on a vegan diet. I
dropped meat and dairy, thereby becoming a vegan. (I'm not doctrinaire; I
do partake of flesh when away from home, though rarely. I will have pizza
in spite of the cheese, if that's what is served.)
I want to be sure to get all of the essential amino acids. My solution is
to get complimentary protein, by eating some grains and some mung bean
sprouts every day.
MONITORING pH
I began to notice that various lists of acidifying and alkalinizing foods
didn't agree with one another. The last straw was when I read Vasey's "The
Acid Alkaline Diet". He states that millet is very acidifying, whereas the
information on the Web all indicated that millet was the only grain that was
not acidifying.
I decided to keep a complete food log, with the times of eating each meal,
and to monitor my urinary pH with three readings a day: morning, afternoon
and evening. This would allow me to see the effects of various foods, and
thus to avoid those that would work against me.
I ordered several months' supply of "pH Stix" from pH Ion Nutrition
(www .pH-ion,com ). They come in little packets of 80 little plastic strips
with two colored panels at the tip that react to acidity.
I find the system very easy to use. You simply dip the tip of the stick
into a sample of urine and compare the resulting colors to a reference chart
to read the pH.
As you probably know, a neutral environment has a pH of 7.0. The
recommended range for rebuilding bone is from slightly acid (6.75) to
slightly alkaline (7.25). Over the past six months, my morning, afternoon
and evening readings (as recorded in a spreadsheet) have averaged 7.0, 7.0
and 6.9, respectively.
pH VS. FOOD INTAKE
My food logs now go back more than six months, and I would like to share
what I have learned.
I have concluded, first, that Vasey was wrong. Millet is absolutely not
"very acidifying". I eat half a cup of either millet, quinoa, or amaranth
every morning, and stay nicely neutral on any of them.
Second, protein is what I call an "acid bomb." I can see this clearly in my
data. As a chemist, I attribute that to its nitrogen content. There has to
be some reason why some foods are more acidifying than others, and this is
the best explanation that I have been able to come up with.
Third, the protein bomb "detonates" with a delayed reaction, anywhere from
18 to 36 hours. It took me months to pinpoint this effect, and now the
readings make much more sense.
For example, after a Sunday dinner of Chinese food with chicken, the Monday's
readings may look nicely neutral, but the acidity will show up on Tuesday,
and linger for awhile.
With this insight, I have even started predicting when the acidity will kick
in.
MENU
(Fast forward through this section if you're not interested in dietary
details.)
Typical breakfast:
1/2 cup grain (millet, quinoa or amaranth), cooked in the microwave
1 Tbsp raisins
1 Tbsp canola oil (just to keep from losing weight)
2 tbsp flaxseeds, freshly ground
1 tbsp wheat germ
2 tbsp sunflower seeds
1 tbsp pumpkin seeds
Optional: fruit (1 cup seedless grapes, 1/2 diced apple)
Typical lunch/dinner (briefly pressure cooked; good for four or five meals):
1 winter squash with the rind cut off, cut in chunks
3 tablespoons of oat grains (look like rice or barley)
2/3 bunch Dino kale, cut up
1 large zucchini cut in disks
1/3 head cabbage, chopped
4 ribs celery, chopped
2-1/2 medium yellow onions, cut in disks and separated into rings
1 small head cauliflower, cut into florets
1 medium carrot, cut in strips
10 smallish yellow potatoes, with skins
1 medium sweet potato, with skin
1/2 cup of extra virgin organic olive oil
1/2 cup mung beans, sprouted
Typical fruit salad:
2 oranges
2 apples
3 bananas
1/2 can crushed pineapple (20 oz can)
3 Tbsp raisins
2 medium carrots, grated
3 ribs celery, grated
Daily snack, at intervals, whenever
(Cut up and kept at the ready)
4 carrots
3 ribs celery
1 rutabaga
1/2 apple
Misc. as desired
Brazil nuts or almonds, raw
Green salad
1/2 cup popping corn (not acidifying!), 1 Tbsp coconut oil
These foods are all nicely neutral as to pH. I can happily eat the same
things day after day. This makes it possible to eat some of a suspected
acidifying food and watch for its effects.
To be honest, I have not spent as much time analyzing the results as I might
have. Right now I suspect that wheat bread is quite acidifying, and I avoid
it; the only wheat I get on a regular basis is the daily wheat germ in the
breakfast.
QUESTIONS
If any of you have read this far, thank you. Could you share your expertise
with me?
--I have not seen any mention of the pH monitoring approach in the last
nine months of postings. Is anybody else trying to rebuild bone by
maintaining the optimal acidity of the body? Any luck?
--I just learned that my Vitamin D 25 OH reading was 28 ng/mL (yes, mL),
and optimum is 35 ng/mL. Yet I am taking 3x the RDA. How would you
recommend that I increase that, and would there be a danger of taking too
much Vitamin D?
--I go in for my next DEXA scan in March. Would you care to hazard a
prediction of how it will go, based on what I have written here? I'll let
the group know when the results come in.
CONCLUSION
I am surprised that it is so difficult to know how best to adjust diet and
vitamins for optimal bone health, taking into account one's particular risk
factors (testosterone, age, weight, ancestry, latitude).
I am very grateful for this group. Thank you all.
Re: Monitoring pH to encourage bone regrowth
"Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote in message news:13qur2g8lulnqa5@corp.supernews,com ...
> I am male, 68 years old, of Scandinavian descent, 6'3" tall (1.9 meters), 151 pounds (68 kg). BMI
> = 18.9. I live in northern California.
>
> I am active for my age. My routine includes fifteen minutes of bends, stretches and calisthenics
> in the morning. Before retiring in May 2007, I used to walk 2 miles at lunchtime most days, and
> on the weekends I either worked on our 40 acres or hiked the trails up into the hills behind the
> house, easily climbing 400 ft in elevation or more.
>
> As a retiree, I continue to get outside daily, lately making new trails. With warmer weather, I
> will be clearing brush, cutting firewood, and doing other chores in place of some of the hiking.
>
> I had been found to be low on testosterone in 2006. This was certainly showing up in libido, and
> I had been wondering if it would show up in my skeleton as well. So in March 2007 I had a
> baseline DEXA scan, which showed that I have severe osteoporosis of the spine and osteopenia of
> the femurs:
>
>
>
> Spine: T-Score -4.1; Z-Score -3.5
>
> Dual Femur (mean): T-Score -2.4; Z-Score -1.7.)
>
>
>
> The diagnosis blindsided me. I had been getting in firewood for weeks, and had just processed a
> 100-foot tall, 3 foot diameter Douglas fir. I'd been chain-sawing the log on an awkward hillside,
> banging away on steel wedges with my 12-pound maul to split the rounds down, wheel-barrowing 35
> loads 250 ft to my woodshed, cutting and burning the slash. How could I have done all that with
> fragile bones?
>
There is a difference between being active and doing activities that will stress/
strain the bone (which is what it needs to get stronger and what will cause it
to break if it isn't strong enough.)
Most of the activities you listed aren't high impact. Banging away with a 12-
pound maul, possibly (I doubt it, but it depends on your technique). And that
would only affect your arms, which weren't scanned. Walking on dirt is less
impact than walking on cement because the dirt absorbs some of the impact.
If you have one of the analog (dial) bathroom scales, you can get a rough idea
of what "normal" impact is: place the scale so you can take a couple steps and
then step on the scale. Have someone else watching the dial. Take some
normal steps and then step on the scale. Ask what the scale peaked at. Normal
impact is 2 - 2.5 times your weight, so there is a good chance you will go as
high as the scale can read.
In addition, you are male. As such, you start with a higher "normal" bone
density than females. I don't know if there are any studies indicating at what
point a male is more likely to get a broken bone. (The additional bone _may_
serve as a reserve, so more needs to be lost before a broken bone is likely).
Anyone know of any studies on this?
>
> On a follow-up visit, my doc prescribed Fosamax and told me to eat cheese and drink milk. By then
> I had done some research. I asked him about the acidifying properties of milk and cheese. He was
> unaware of any connection.
>
There is no guaranteed cure. Every treatment you can find will have people
claiming it is bad for you. I reacted to this claim (and the ones claiming that
eating X leaches calcium from the bones) by supplementing with Calcium
several times a day - and having more than the RDA - so that if calcium was
needed for buffering, it didn't need to be pulled from my bones.
>
>
> I decided to ignore his dietary recommendations. Averse to medications and unwilling to risk
> osteonecrosis, I also decided to forego the medication. Instead, I gave myself one year to try to
> begin rebuilding bone by other means.
>
Last I heard, osteonecrosis was very rare if the medicine was taken orally.
<snip>
>
> I studied Dr. McDougall's web site ( http :// www .drmcdougall,com ), including the archived copies of
> his newsletter. He maintains that the American diet contains far too much protein. He said that
> protein malnutrition is extremely rare in the U.S., and that, in fact, it is hard for vegetarians
> to get insufficient protein.
>
>
>
> He recommends a vegan diet with 15 grams of protein a day. I studied the labels and found that
> two small slices of whole grain bread and two tablespoons of almond butter contained 14 gm protein
> between them. At that point I stopped worrying about getting enough protein on a vegan diet. I
> dropped meat and dairy, thereby becoming a vegan. (I'm not doctrinaire; I do partake of flesh
> when away from home, though rarely. I will have pizza in spite of the cheese, if that's what is
> served.)
>
I glanced at the web page. It isn't one I would use as a reference. The amount
of protein you need will be dependent on how much lean mass you have and
the level and types of activity you do. A 100 lb couch potato needs far less
protein than a 250 lb athlete. One author that I respect recommends .75 grams
of protein per pound of lean mass for inactive people.
My suspicion is that you found a web site that confirmed what you believe.
<snip remaining dietary stuff>
> --I go in for my next DEXA scan in March. Would you care to hazard a prediction of how it will
> go, based on what I have written here? I'll let the group know when the results come in.
>
My guess would be little to no change. You haven't highlighted any
major changes, so I wouldn't expect the result to change. In addition,
dramatic changes in bone density in short periods of time are usually
the results of bad DEXAs and not the results of real change. (Some
doctors and insurance companies insist on two years between DEXA
readings to increase the likelihood of a change that is greater than the
standard error in the process).
If you had a very acidic diet before (with insufficient calcium to balance
the acidity), then it is possible that reducing the acidity would reduce the
calcium drain from your bones. If you aren't doing activities that stress
the bones, though, there isn't any reason for an increase in bone density.
What kind of doctor did you see? If you have a medical problem (one that
causes low testosterone or poor vitamin utilization), you should probably
see an Endocrinologist to explore this further.
If you've been here for 10 months, you've probably seen this recommendation
before: go to http :// courses.washington.edu/bonephys/opDEXA1.html
and study how to read a DEXA. When you go back for your second DEXA,
get copies of both scans and do your own comparison.
>
>
> CONCLUSION
>
>
>
> I am surprised that it is so difficult to know how best to adjust diet and vitamins for optimal
> bone health, taking into account one's particular risk factors (testosterone, age, weight,
> ancestry, latitude).
>
While diet is certainly important, it is only one factor.
I haven't heard of any way to make up for testosterone levels or ancestry
solely by diet. Latitude (or staying out of the sun)? More vitamin D. Age?
Important because the body gets less efficient at using minerals and vitamins
so more are needed.
Whoops - correction: I was just looking up protein requirements and came
across a statement that low fat consumption has been linked to low
testosterone (low fat intake or low saturated fat intake has a positive
correlation with low testosterone).
From what I can see, I went the opposite direction as you: I ate a lot more
protein, took additional calcium just in case, and modified my routine to
include heavy weight lifting.
Good luck,
Art
"Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote in message news:13qur2g8lulnqa5@corp.supernews,com ...
> I am male, 68 years old, of Scandinavian descent, 6'3" tall (1.9 meters), 151 pounds (68 kg). BMI
> = 18.9. I live in northern California.
>
> I am active for my age. My routine includes fifteen minutes of bends, stretches and calisthenics
> in the morning. Before retiring in May 2007, I used to walk 2 miles at lunchtime most days, and
> on the weekends I either worked on our 40 acres or hiked the trails up into the hills behind the
> house, easily climbing 400 ft in elevation or more.
>
> As a retiree, I continue to get outside daily, lately making new trails. With warmer weather, I
> will be clearing brush, cutting firewood, and doing other chores in place of some of the hiking.
>
> I had been found to be low on testosterone in 2006. This was certainly showing up in libido, and
> I had been wondering if it would show up in my skeleton as well. So in March 2007 I had a
> baseline DEXA scan, which showed that I have severe osteoporosis of the spine and osteopenia of
> the femurs:
>
>
>
> Spine: T-Score -4.1; Z-Score -3.5
>
> Dual Femur (mean): T-Score -2.4; Z-Score -1.7.)
>
>
>
> The diagnosis blindsided me. I had been getting in firewood for weeks, and had just processed a
> 100-foot tall, 3 foot diameter Douglas fir. I'd been chain-sawing the log on an awkward hillside,
> banging away on steel wedges with my 12-pound maul to split the rounds down, wheel-barrowing 35
> loads 250 ft to my woodshed, cutting and burning the slash. How could I have done all that with
> fragile bones?
>
There is a difference between being active and doing activities that will stress/
strain the bone (which is what it needs to get stronger and what will cause it
to break if it isn't strong enough.)
Most of the activities you listed aren't high impact. Banging away with a 12-
pound maul, possibly (I doubt it, but it depends on your technique). And that
would only affect your arms, which weren't scanned. Walking on dirt is less
impact than walking on cement because the dirt absorbs some of the impact.
If you have one of the analog (dial) bathroom scales, you can get a rough idea
of what "normal" impact is: place the scale so you can take a couple steps and
then step on the scale. Have someone else watching the dial. Take some
normal steps and then step on the scale. Ask what the scale peaked at. Normal
impact is 2 - 2.5 times your weight, so there is a good chance you will go as
high as the scale can read.
In addition, you are male. As such, you start with a higher "normal" bone
density than females. I don't know if there are any studies indicating at what
point a male is more likely to get a broken bone. (The additional bone _may_
serve as a reserve, so more needs to be lost before a broken bone is likely).
Anyone know of any studies on this?
>
> On a follow-up visit, my doc prescribed Fosamax and told me to eat cheese and drink milk. By then
> I had done some research. I asked him about the acidifying properties of milk and cheese. He was
> unaware of any connection.
>
There is no guaranteed cure. Every treatment you can find will have people
claiming it is bad for you. I reacted to this claim (and the ones claiming that
eating X leaches calcium from the bones) by supplementing with Calcium
several times a day - and having more than the RDA - so that if calcium was
needed for buffering, it didn't need to be pulled from my bones.
>
>
> I decided to ignore his dietary recommendations. Averse to medications and unwilling to risk
> osteonecrosis, I also decided to forego the medication. Instead, I gave myself one year to try to
> begin rebuilding bone by other means.
>
Last I heard, osteonecrosis was very rare if the medicine was taken orally.
<snip>
>
> I studied Dr. McDougall's web site ( http :// www .drmcdougall,com ), including the archived copies of
> his newsletter. He maintains that the American diet contains far too much protein. He said that
> protein malnutrition is extremely rare in the U.S., and that, in fact, it is hard for vegetarians
> to get insufficient protein.
>
>
>
> He recommends a vegan diet with 15 grams of protein a day. I studied the labels and found that
> two small slices of whole grain bread and two tablespoons of almond butter contained 14 gm protein
> between them. At that point I stopped worrying about getting enough protein on a vegan diet. I
> dropped meat and dairy, thereby becoming a vegan. (I'm not doctrinaire; I do partake of flesh
> when away from home, though rarely. I will have pizza in spite of the cheese, if that's what is
> served.)
>
I glanced at the web page. It isn't one I would use as a reference. The amount
of protein you need will be dependent on how much lean mass you have and
the level and types of activity you do. A 100 lb couch potato needs far less
protein than a 250 lb athlete. One author that I respect recommends .75 grams
of protein per pound of lean mass for inactive people.
My suspicion is that you found a web site that confirmed what you believe.
<snip remaining dietary stuff>
> --I go in for my next DEXA scan in March. Would you care to hazard a prediction of how it will
> go, based on what I have written here? I'll let the group know when the results come in.
>
My guess would be little to no change. You haven't highlighted any
major changes, so I wouldn't expect the result to change. In addition,
dramatic changes in bone density in short periods of time are usually
the results of bad DEXAs and not the results of real change. (Some
doctors and insurance companies insist on two years between DEXA
readings to increase the likelihood of a change that is greater than the
standard error in the process).
If you had a very acidic diet before (with insufficient calcium to balance
the acidity), then it is possible that reducing the acidity would reduce the
calcium drain from your bones. If you aren't doing activities that stress
the bones, though, there isn't any reason for an increase in bone density.
What kind of doctor did you see? If you have a medical problem (one that
causes low testosterone or poor vitamin utilization), you should probably
see an Endocrinologist to explore this further.
If you've been here for 10 months, you've probably seen this recommendation
before: go to http :// courses.washington.edu/bonephys/opDEXA1.html
and study how to read a DEXA. When you go back for your second DEXA,
get copies of both scans and do your own comparison.
>
>
> CONCLUSION
>
>
>
> I am surprised that it is so difficult to know how best to adjust diet and vitamins for optimal
> bone health, taking into account one's particular risk factors (testosterone, age, weight,
> ancestry, latitude).
>
While diet is certainly important, it is only one factor.
I haven't heard of any way to make up for testosterone levels or ancestry
solely by diet. Latitude (or staying out of the sun)? More vitamin D. Age?
Important because the body gets less efficient at using minerals and vitamins
so more are needed.
Whoops - correction: I was just looking up protein requirements and came
across a statement that low fat consumption has been linked to low
testosterone (low fat intake or low saturated fat intake has a positive
correlation with low testosterone).
From what I can see, I went the opposite direction as you: I ate a lot more
protein, took additional calcium just in case, and modified my routine to
include heavy weight lifting.
Good luck,
Art
Re: Monitoring pH to encourage bone regrowth
Art,
Many thanks for taking the time to study my post and respond in detail.
Re: calcium buffering the bodily fluids, so it would not have to be drawn
from the bones, it makes sense that organic salts of calcium (carbonate,
maleate, citrate etc.) taken as supplements would have an alkalizing effect.
I have wondered whether the timing of taking the pills would affect the pH
readings and thereby complicate the process of linking changes to properties
of various foods.
So far I haven't been able to see that. I suppose I could skip the
pills for a day and then double up to see how pH reacted. If it didn't
react, this would call into question the assumption that we can eat an acid
diet and prevent leaching of the bones by supplementing with calcium.
Re: protein needs, .75 gm of protein per pound of body mass would mean that
I ought to be taking 113 grams of protein, and I take that to mean daily.
This is far beyond what my nutritionist recommended, and more than 7 times
what I am taking. I'll keep on going for two months and see what happens.
You have opted for plenty of protein. Have you succeeded in building
bone?
Re: Dr. McDougall: I agree, I probably stuck with him since I agree with
him. But it was either low protein, or else give up on the pH approach. I
simply could not keep a neutral pH with much more protein than I am getting
on this vegan diet.
(And so far, I have not come upon anything in this newsgroup from
anybody who has gone for the pH approach. I'd love to know of others'
experience with it. Otherwise, I'll keep you all posted on what
transpires.)
Re: prior diet, it may have been fairly acidic. Certainly my way of eating
now is sharply different from what it was then.
Re: type of doctor, I did see an endocrinologist. I just got the results
and need to find time to study them properly. Orally he indicated that only
the low Vitamin D concerned him.
Re: DEXA scan: Many thanks for the link. Again, I will study it properly
as I get a clear space.
Re: lowfat diet and low testosterone: I came across a reference stating the
same connection. I had led an ultra-low fat diet for more than 20 years,
thinking it was healthy. Now I am taking far more oil (olive and canola)
than I had been, but probably still not up to 30% of calories.
Could you provide me a URL for the reference where you read about this?
Thanks again, Art, for taking time to help me along on this. It's great to
have your support.
Ole
"Art S" <TheDabbler01@att,net > wrote in message
news:pSNrj.214728$MJ6.155349@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att,net ...
>
> "Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote in message
> news:13qur2g8lulnqa5@corp.supernews,com ...
>> I am male, 68 years old, of Scandinavian descent, 6'3" tall (1.9 meters),
>> 151 pounds (68 kg). BMI = 18.9. I live in northern California.
>>
>> I am active for my age. My routine includes fifteen minutes of bends,
>> stretches and calisthenics in the morning. Before retiring in May 2007,
>> I used to walk 2 miles at lunchtime most days, and on the weekends I
>> either worked on our 40 acres or hiked the trails up into the hills
>> behind the house, easily climbing 400 ft in elevation or more.
>>
>> As a retiree, I continue to get outside daily, lately making new trails.
>> With warmer weather, I will be clearing brush, cutting firewood, and
>> doing other chores in place of some of the hiking.
>>
>> I had been found to be low on testosterone in 2006. This was certainly
>> showing up in libido, and I had been wondering if it would show up in my
>> skeleton as well. So in March 2007 I had a baseline DEXA scan, which
>> showed that I have severe osteoporosis of the spine and osteopenia of the
>> femurs:
>>
>>
>>
>> Spine: T-Score -4.1; Z-Score -3.5
>>
>> Dual Femur (mean): T-Score -2.4; Z-Score -1.7.)
>>
>>
>>
>> The diagnosis blindsided me. I had been getting in firewood for weeks,
>> and had just processed a 100-foot tall, 3 foot diameter Douglas fir. I'd
>> been chain-sawing the log on an awkward hillside, banging away on steel
>> wedges with my 12-pound maul to split the rounds down, wheel-barrowing 35
>> loads 250 ft to my woodshed, cutting and burning the slash. How could I
>> have done all that with fragile bones?
>>
>
> There is a difference between being active and doing activities that will
> stress/
> strain the bone (which is what it needs to get stronger and what will
> cause it
> to break if it isn't strong enough.)
>
> Most of the activities you listed aren't high impact. Banging away with a
> 12-
> pound maul, possibly (I doubt it, but it depends on your technique). And
> that
> would only affect your arms, which weren't scanned. Walking on dirt is
> less
> impact than walking on cement because the dirt absorbs some of the impact.
>
> If you have one of the analog (dial) bathroom scales, you can get a rough
> idea
> of what "normal" impact is: place the scale so you can take a couple
> steps and
> then step on the scale. Have someone else watching the dial. Take some
> normal steps and then step on the scale. Ask what the scale peaked at.
> Normal
> impact is 2 - 2.5 times your weight, so there is a good chance you will go
> as
> high as the scale can read.
>
> In addition, you are male. As such, you start with a higher "normal" bone
> density than females. I don't know if there are any studies indicating at
> what
> point a male is more likely to get a broken bone. (The additional bone
> _may_
> serve as a reserve, so more needs to be lost before a broken bone is
> likely).
> Anyone know of any studies on this?
>
>>
>> On a follow-up visit, my doc prescribed Fosamax and told me to eat cheese
>> and drink milk. By then I had done some research. I asked him about the
>> acidifying properties of milk and cheese. He was unaware of any
>> connection.
>>
>
> There is no guaranteed cure. Every treatment you can find will have
> people
> claiming it is bad for you. I reacted to this claim (and the ones
> claiming that
> eating X leaches calcium from the bones) by supplementing with Calcium
> several times a day - and having more than the RDA - so that if calcium
> was
> needed for buffering, it didn't need to be pulled from my bones.
>
>>
>>
>> I decided to ignore his dietary recommendations. Averse to medications
>> and unwilling to risk osteonecrosis, I also decided to forego the
>> medication. Instead, I gave myself one year to try to begin rebuilding
>> bone by other means.
>>
>
> Last I heard, osteonecrosis was very rare if the medicine was taken
> orally.
>
> <snip>
>>
>> I studied Dr. McDougall's web site ( http :// www .drmcdougall,com ),
>> including the archived copies of his newsletter. He maintains that the
>> American diet contains far too much protein. He said that protein
>> malnutrition is extremely rare in the U.S., and that, in fact, it is hard
>> for vegetarians to get insufficient protein.
>>
>>
>>
>> He recommends a vegan diet with 15 grams of protein a day. I studied the
>> labels and found that two small slices of whole grain bread and two
>> tablespoons of almond butter contained 14 gm protein between them. At
>> that point I stopped worrying about getting enough protein on a vegan
>> diet. I dropped meat and dairy, thereby becoming a vegan. (I'm not
>> doctrinaire; I do partake of flesh when away from home, though rarely. I
>> will have pizza in spite of the cheese, if that's what is served.)
>>
>
> I glanced at the web page. It isn't one I would use as a reference. The
> amount
> of protein you need will be dependent on how much lean mass you have and
> the level and types of activity you do. A 100 lb couch potato needs far
> less
> protein than a 250 lb athlete. One author that I respect recommends .75
> grams
> of protein per pound of lean mass for inactive people.
>
> My suspicion is that you found a web site that confirmed what you believe.
>
> <snip remaining dietary stuff>
>
>> --I go in for my next DEXA scan in March. Would you care to hazard a
>> prediction of how it will go, based on what I have written here? I'll
>> let the group know when the results come in.
>>
>
> My guess would be little to no change. You haven't highlighted any
> major changes, so I wouldn't expect the result to change. In addition,
> dramatic changes in bone density in short periods of time are usually
> the results of bad DEXAs and not the results of real change. (Some
> doctors and insurance companies insist on two years between DEXA
> readings to increase the likelihood of a change that is greater than the
> standard error in the process).
>
> If you had a very acidic diet before (with insufficient calcium to balance
> the acidity), then it is possible that reducing the acidity would reduce
> the
> calcium drain from your bones. If you aren't doing activities that stress
> the bones, though, there isn't any reason for an increase in bone density.
>
> What kind of doctor did you see? If you have a medical problem (one that
> causes low testosterone or poor vitamin utilization), you should probably
> see an Endocrinologist to explore this further.
>
> If you've been here for 10 months, you've probably seen this
> recommendation
> before: go to http :// courses.washington.edu/bonephys/opDEXA1.html
> and study how to read a DEXA. When you go back for your second DEXA,
> get copies of both scans and do your own comparison.
>
>>
>>
>> CONCLUSION
>>
>>
>>
>> I am surprised that it is so difficult to know how best to adjust diet
>> and vitamins for optimal bone health, taking into account one's
>> particular risk factors (testosterone, age, weight, ancestry, latitude).
>>
>
> While diet is certainly important, it is only one factor.
>
> I haven't heard of any way to make up for testosterone levels or ancestry
> solely by diet. Latitude (or staying out of the sun)? More vitamin D.
> Age?
> Important because the body gets less efficient at using minerals and
> vitamins
> so more are needed.
>
> Whoops - correction: I was just looking up protein requirements and came
> across a statement that low fat consumption has been linked to low
> testosterone (low fat intake or low saturated fat intake has a positive
> correlation with low testosterone).
>
> From what I can see, I went the opposite direction as you: I ate a lot
> more
> protein, took additional calcium just in case, and modified my routine to
> include heavy weight lifting.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Art
>
>
Art,
Many thanks for taking the time to study my post and respond in detail.
Re: calcium buffering the bodily fluids, so it would not have to be drawn
from the bones, it makes sense that organic salts of calcium (carbonate,
maleate, citrate etc.) taken as supplements would have an alkalizing effect.
I have wondered whether the timing of taking the pills would affect the pH
readings and thereby complicate the process of linking changes to properties
of various foods.
So far I haven't been able to see that. I suppose I could skip the
pills for a day and then double up to see how pH reacted. If it didn't
react, this would call into question the assumption that we can eat an acid
diet and prevent leaching of the bones by supplementing with calcium.
Re: protein needs, .75 gm of protein per pound of body mass would mean that
I ought to be taking 113 grams of protein, and I take that to mean daily.
This is far beyond what my nutritionist recommended, and more than 7 times
what I am taking. I'll keep on going for two months and see what happens.
You have opted for plenty of protein. Have you succeeded in building
bone?
Re: Dr. McDougall: I agree, I probably stuck with him since I agree with
him. But it was either low protein, or else give up on the pH approach. I
simply could not keep a neutral pH with much more protein than I am getting
on this vegan diet.
(And so far, I have not come upon anything in this newsgroup from
anybody who has gone for the pH approach. I'd love to know of others'
experience with it. Otherwise, I'll keep you all posted on what
transpires.)
Re: prior diet, it may have been fairly acidic. Certainly my way of eating
now is sharply different from what it was then.
Re: type of doctor, I did see an endocrinologist. I just got the results
and need to find time to study them properly. Orally he indicated that only
the low Vitamin D concerned him.
Re: DEXA scan: Many thanks for the link. Again, I will study it properly
as I get a clear space.
Re: lowfat diet and low testosterone: I came across a reference stating the
same connection. I had led an ultra-low fat diet for more than 20 years,
thinking it was healthy. Now I am taking far more oil (olive and canola)
than I had been, but probably still not up to 30% of calories.
Could you provide me a URL for the reference where you read about this?
Thanks again, Art, for taking time to help me along on this. It's great to
have your support.
Ole
"Art S" <TheDabbler01@att,net > wrote in message
news:pSNrj.214728$MJ6.155349@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att,net ...
>
> "Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote in message
> news:13qur2g8lulnqa5@corp.supernews,com ...
>> I am male, 68 years old, of Scandinavian descent, 6'3" tall (1.9 meters),
>> 151 pounds (68 kg). BMI = 18.9. I live in northern California.
>>
>> I am active for my age. My routine includes fifteen minutes of bends,
>> stretches and calisthenics in the morning. Before retiring in May 2007,
>> I used to walk 2 miles at lunchtime most days, and on the weekends I
>> either worked on our 40 acres or hiked the trails up into the hills
>> behind the house, easily climbing 400 ft in elevation or more.
>>
>> As a retiree, I continue to get outside daily, lately making new trails.
>> With warmer weather, I will be clearing brush, cutting firewood, and
>> doing other chores in place of some of the hiking.
>>
>> I had been found to be low on testosterone in 2006. This was certainly
>> showing up in libido, and I had been wondering if it would show up in my
>> skeleton as well. So in March 2007 I had a baseline DEXA scan, which
>> showed that I have severe osteoporosis of the spine and osteopenia of the
>> femurs:
>>
>>
>>
>> Spine: T-Score -4.1; Z-Score -3.5
>>
>> Dual Femur (mean): T-Score -2.4; Z-Score -1.7.)
>>
>>
>>
>> The diagnosis blindsided me. I had been getting in firewood for weeks,
>> and had just processed a 100-foot tall, 3 foot diameter Douglas fir. I'd
>> been chain-sawing the log on an awkward hillside, banging away on steel
>> wedges with my 12-pound maul to split the rounds down, wheel-barrowing 35
>> loads 250 ft to my woodshed, cutting and burning the slash. How could I
>> have done all that with fragile bones?
>>
>
> There is a difference between being active and doing activities that will
> stress/
> strain the bone (which is what it needs to get stronger and what will
> cause it
> to break if it isn't strong enough.)
>
> Most of the activities you listed aren't high impact. Banging away with a
> 12-
> pound maul, possibly (I doubt it, but it depends on your technique). And
> that
> would only affect your arms, which weren't scanned. Walking on dirt is
> less
> impact than walking on cement because the dirt absorbs some of the impact.
>
> If you have one of the analog (dial) bathroom scales, you can get a rough
> idea
> of what "normal" impact is: place the scale so you can take a couple
> steps and
> then step on the scale. Have someone else watching the dial. Take some
> normal steps and then step on the scale. Ask what the scale peaked at.
> Normal
> impact is 2 - 2.5 times your weight, so there is a good chance you will go
> as
> high as the scale can read.
>
> In addition, you are male. As such, you start with a higher "normal" bone
> density than females. I don't know if there are any studies indicating at
> what
> point a male is more likely to get a broken bone. (The additional bone
> _may_
> serve as a reserve, so more needs to be lost before a broken bone is
> likely).
> Anyone know of any studies on this?
>
>>
>> On a follow-up visit, my doc prescribed Fosamax and told me to eat cheese
>> and drink milk. By then I had done some research. I asked him about the
>> acidifying properties of milk and cheese. He was unaware of any
>> connection.
>>
>
> There is no guaranteed cure. Every treatment you can find will have
> people
> claiming it is bad for you. I reacted to this claim (and the ones
> claiming that
> eating X leaches calcium from the bones) by supplementing with Calcium
> several times a day - and having more than the RDA - so that if calcium
> was
> needed for buffering, it didn't need to be pulled from my bones.
>
>>
>>
>> I decided to ignore his dietary recommendations. Averse to medications
>> and unwilling to risk osteonecrosis, I also decided to forego the
>> medication. Instead, I gave myself one year to try to begin rebuilding
>> bone by other means.
>>
>
> Last I heard, osteonecrosis was very rare if the medicine was taken
> orally.
>
> <snip>
>>
>> I studied Dr. McDougall's web site ( http :// www .drmcdougall,com ),
>> including the archived copies of his newsletter. He maintains that the
>> American diet contains far too much protein. He said that protein
>> malnutrition is extremely rare in the U.S., and that, in fact, it is hard
>> for vegetarians to get insufficient protein.
>>
>>
>>
>> He recommends a vegan diet with 15 grams of protein a day. I studied the
>> labels and found that two small slices of whole grain bread and two
>> tablespoons of almond butter contained 14 gm protein between them. At
>> that point I stopped worrying about getting enough protein on a vegan
>> diet. I dropped meat and dairy, thereby becoming a vegan. (I'm not
>> doctrinaire; I do partake of flesh when away from home, though rarely. I
>> will have pizza in spite of the cheese, if that's what is served.)
>>
>
> I glanced at the web page. It isn't one I would use as a reference. The
> amount
> of protein you need will be dependent on how much lean mass you have and
> the level and types of activity you do. A 100 lb couch potato needs far
> less
> protein than a 250 lb athlete. One author that I respect recommends .75
> grams
> of protein per pound of lean mass for inactive people.
>
> My suspicion is that you found a web site that confirmed what you believe.
>
> <snip remaining dietary stuff>
>
>> --I go in for my next DEXA scan in March. Would you care to hazard a
>> prediction of how it will go, based on what I have written here? I'll
>> let the group know when the results come in.
>>
>
> My guess would be little to no change. You haven't highlighted any
> major changes, so I wouldn't expect the result to change. In addition,
> dramatic changes in bone density in short periods of time are usually
> the results of bad DEXAs and not the results of real change. (Some
> doctors and insurance companies insist on two years between DEXA
> readings to increase the likelihood of a change that is greater than the
> standard error in the process).
>
> If you had a very acidic diet before (with insufficient calcium to balance
> the acidity), then it is possible that reducing the acidity would reduce
> the
> calcium drain from your bones. If you aren't doing activities that stress
> the bones, though, there isn't any reason for an increase in bone density.
>
> What kind of doctor did you see? If you have a medical problem (one that
> causes low testosterone or poor vitamin utilization), you should probably
> see an Endocrinologist to explore this further.
>
> If you've been here for 10 months, you've probably seen this
> recommendation
> before: go to http :// courses.washington.edu/bonephys/opDEXA1.html
> and study how to read a DEXA. When you go back for your second DEXA,
> get copies of both scans and do your own comparison.
>
>>
>>
>> CONCLUSION
>>
>>
>>
>> I am surprised that it is so difficult to know how best to adjust diet
>> and vitamins for optimal bone health, taking into account one's
>> particular risk factors (testosterone, age, weight, ancestry, latitude).
>>
>
> While diet is certainly important, it is only one factor.
>
> I haven't heard of any way to make up for testosterone levels or ancestry
> solely by diet. Latitude (or staying out of the sun)? More vitamin D.
> Age?
> Important because the body gets less efficient at using minerals and
> vitamins
> so more are needed.
>
> Whoops - correction: I was just looking up protein requirements and came
> across a statement that low fat consumption has been linked to low
> testosterone (low fat intake or low saturated fat intake has a positive
> correlation with low testosterone).
>
> From what I can see, I went the opposite direction as you: I ate a lot
> more
> protein, took additional calcium just in case, and modified my routine to
> include heavy weight lifting.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Art
>
>
Re: Monitoring pH to encourage bone regrowth
"Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote in message news:13r4nf6dq1pbj72@corp.supernews,com ...
> Art,
>
> Many thanks for taking the time to study my post and respond in detail.
>
> Re: calcium buffering the bodily fluids, so it would not have to be drawn from the bones, it makes
> sense that organic salts of calcium (carbonate, maleate, citrate etc.) taken as supplements would
> have an alkalizing effect. I have wondered whether the timing of taking the pills would affect the
> pH readings and thereby complicate the process of linking changes to properties of various foods.
> So far I haven't been able to see that. I suppose I could skip the pills for a day and then
> double up to see how pH reacted. If it didn't react, this would call into question the assumption
> that we can eat an acid diet and prevent leaching of the bones by supplementing with calcium.
I would be surprised if you didn't see an affect. Please let us know.
>
> Re: protein needs, .75 gm of protein per pound of body mass would mean that I ought to be taking
> 113 grams of protein, and I take that to mean daily. This is far beyond what my nutritionist
> recommended, and more than 7 times what I am taking. I'll keep on going for two months and see
> what happens.
> You have opted for plenty of protein. Have you succeeded in building bone?
>
The quick answer is yes.
Keeping in mind that I was in my early 40s when diagnosed (which means my
body probably showed less aging effects than yours) and I took Fosomax
(probably for 3 1/2 years), I went from Osteopeniac to Normal.
I'll try to reply with the stats when I have more time.
> Re: Dr. McDougall: I agree, I probably stuck with him since I agree with him. But it was either
> low protein, or else give up on the pH approach. I simply could not keep a neutral pH with much
> more protein than I am getting on this vegan diet.
> (And so far, I have not come upon anything in this newsgroup from anybody who has gone for the
> pH approach. I'd love to know of others' experience with it. Otherwise, I'll keep you all posted
> on what transpires.)
>
> Re: prior diet, it may have been fairly acidic. Certainly my way of eating now is sharply
> different from what it was then.
>
> Re: type of doctor, I did see an endocrinologist. I just got the results and need to find time to
> study them properly. Orally he indicated that only the low Vitamin D concerned him.
>
> Re: DEXA scan: Many thanks for the link. Again, I will study it properly as I get a clear space.
>
> Re: lowfat diet and low testosterone: I came across a reference stating the same connection. I
> had led an ultra-low fat diet for more than 20 years, thinking it was healthy. Now I am taking
> far more oil (olive and canola) than I had been, but probably still not up to 30% of calories.
> Could you provide me a URL for the reference where you read about this?
It was in a newsletter I got from www .bodyrecomposition,com (Lyle McDonald).
Basically, Lyle is a Personal Trainer. His "hobby" is reading medical studies that
relate to exercise, training, etc. He is one of the most knowledgeable people I
have come across.
>
> Thanks again, Art, for taking time to help me along on this. It's great to have your support.
>
> Ole
>
"Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote in message news:13r4nf6dq1pbj72@corp.supernews,com ...
> Art,
>
> Many thanks for taking the time to study my post and respond in detail.
>
> Re: calcium buffering the bodily fluids, so it would not have to be drawn from the bones, it makes
> sense that organic salts of calcium (carbonate, maleate, citrate etc.) taken as supplements would
> have an alkalizing effect. I have wondered whether the timing of taking the pills would affect the
> pH readings and thereby complicate the process of linking changes to properties of various foods.
> So far I haven't been able to see that. I suppose I could skip the pills for a day and then
> double up to see how pH reacted. If it didn't react, this would call into question the assumption
> that we can eat an acid diet and prevent leaching of the bones by supplementing with calcium.
I would be surprised if you didn't see an affect. Please let us know.
>
> Re: protein needs, .75 gm of protein per pound of body mass would mean that I ought to be taking
> 113 grams of protein, and I take that to mean daily. This is far beyond what my nutritionist
> recommended, and more than 7 times what I am taking. I'll keep on going for two months and see
> what happens.
> You have opted for plenty of protein. Have you succeeded in building bone?
>
The quick answer is yes.
Keeping in mind that I was in my early 40s when diagnosed (which means my
body probably showed less aging effects than yours) and I took Fosomax
(probably for 3 1/2 years), I went from Osteopeniac to Normal.
I'll try to reply with the stats when I have more time.
> Re: Dr. McDougall: I agree, I probably stuck with him since I agree with him. But it was either
> low protein, or else give up on the pH approach. I simply could not keep a neutral pH with much
> more protein than I am getting on this vegan diet.
> (And so far, I have not come upon anything in this newsgroup from anybody who has gone for the
> pH approach. I'd love to know of others' experience with it. Otherwise, I'll keep you all posted
> on what transpires.)
>
> Re: prior diet, it may have been fairly acidic. Certainly my way of eating now is sharply
> different from what it was then.
>
> Re: type of doctor, I did see an endocrinologist. I just got the results and need to find time to
> study them properly. Orally he indicated that only the low Vitamin D concerned him.
>
> Re: DEXA scan: Many thanks for the link. Again, I will study it properly as I get a clear space.
>
> Re: lowfat diet and low testosterone: I came across a reference stating the same connection. I
> had led an ultra-low fat diet for more than 20 years, thinking it was healthy. Now I am taking
> far more oil (olive and canola) than I had been, but probably still not up to 30% of calories.
> Could you provide me a URL for the reference where you read about this?
It was in a newsletter I got from www .bodyrecomposition,com (Lyle McDonald).
Basically, Lyle is a Personal Trainer. His "hobby" is reading medical studies that
relate to exercise, training, etc. He is one of the most knowledgeable people I
have come across.
>
> Thanks again, Art, for taking time to help me along on this. It's great to have your support.
>
> Ole
>
Re: Monitoring pH to encourage bone regrowth
"Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote in message news:13r4nf6dq1pbj72@corp.supernews,com ...
> You have opted for plenty of protein. Have you succeeded in building bone?
>
Well, I hope that this is worth the delay :)
My first and last DEXA readings were:
BMD young age
g/cm2 adult matched
4/21/98 hip neck 0.874 -1.63 -1.3
troch 0.754 -1.60 -1.5
spine L1 0.969 -1.59 -1.63
L2 0.959 -2.34 -2.37
L3 0.992 -2.07 -2.10
L4 0.905 -2.79 -2.83
4/03/07 hip neck 0.953 -0.9 -0.5
troch 0.921 -0.1 -0.1
spine L1 1.310 1.2 1.1
L2 1.336 0.8 0.6
L3 1.335 0.8 0.6
L4 1.262 0.2 0.0
Changes made:
1) increased protein in diet
2) supplements for bone growth: calcium, magnesium, boron, zinc
was also taking glucosamine, chrondroitin and MSM; I have a vague recollection
of a study suggesting that they promoted an increase in bone density by helping
the matrix that binds the calcium, but couldn't find the reference.
3) exercise: started weight lifting in the gym, selecting exercises based on how
much I thought they would promote bone growth (pragmatically speaking, that
amounts to selecting "pushing" exercises that place stress on as much of the body
as possible).
4) took Fosamax for 2.5 - 3.5 years (not sure which)
Notes: scans were done on two different machines with two different operators.
My suggestions for you:
1) Notes/caveats:
A. I'm not a doctor, I haven't seen your DEXA results or you, so don't take my
recommendations as medical advice.
B. Your bones don't have nerves - you do something to stress them (via impact
or fighting resistance) and they 1) deal with it, no problem; 2) deal with it
but react by getting stronger; or 3) fracture or break without warning. Given
your DEXA results, be careful about increasing the level of stress on your
bones. You may want to postpone any changes in exercise/activity level until
you've talked with your doctor (especially since that will be happening in
March)
2) Between now and your next DEXA (March)
A. See if you can get your doctor to send you a copy of your DEXA. You want
the 3-page one that shows detailed hip and spine information. If you didn't
have the DEXA done in your doctor's office, this may require a little bit of
"social engineering" - aka lying. One place I had a DEXA done didn't want
to give it to me, so I needed to say that I needed a copy I could bring with me
to the doctor. Then they gave me a one page summary (which is what they
normally send to the doctor). I needed to wait until a supervisor was
available so I could explain what I wanted in detail (and show her copies of
other DEXA results that I had). I then waited a few days while they contacted
the manufacturer to learn how to set their machine to produce the report I
wanted.
B. http :// courses.washington.edu/bonephys/mis/opmistakes.html has some
case studies on how to read a DEXA. Study those carefully - when you have
your next DEXA you want to be able to look at the detailed results and see if
there are any problems that your doctor may have missed. My concern is that,
given your low score for your spine (-4.1) there may be some compression
fractures. If so, their presence should play a major factor in determining
what kind of exercises you can do safely.
C. Talk with Lyle McDonald (www .bodyrecomposition,com ) about protein
requirements - he can talk about it much more knowledgeably than I.
Make sure to let him know your types and levels of activity since it does
affect your protein requirements.
D. Evaluate your normal activities in terms of what they do to stress your
skeleton. As an example, when you walk, your heel hits the ground, getting
most of the impact. As your weight is transferred to that foot, each bone
gets some of the impact (presumably less than the bone before). Since,
your thigh and spine are in a straight line at any time during the impact, there
is a good likelihood that relatively little of the impact actually makes it to
the spine and most of what does will be absorbed by the lower portion of the
spine.
E. The impression I have is that the vast majority of your walking is on dirt. If
so, consider walking on asphalt or concrete each day since they absorb less
of the impact than dirt. I would expect 0.25 to 1.00 miles daily to be
sufficient for your purposes.
3) When you have the DEXA done and see your doctor
A) Make sure to get the detailed DEXA results for both scans.
B) Discuss exercise: is walking sufficient? Can you safely increase the stress
on your spine by wearing a light day pack with some light weight in it
(no weight for a few months, a couple pounds for a few months, a few
more for the next few... - what does he say? How much should you
increment the weight? How long should you wait to increment it?)
C) If your results are worse than last year, be prepared to discuss alternatives:
will changing your exercises be enough, or do you need to take some form
of medication? (If results are worse I would expect him to recommend
medication.)
D) If your results are the same as last year, congratulations - your dietary
changes are a probably a good thing. You may persuade him to let you
have another year without medication to see what happens if you add
exercise. (Iffy, to be honest - your DEXA results are low, so he may
want to give you a quick boost by taking medication for a couple years)
E) If your results are a little better than last year, congratulations - your
no-medication argument may get somewhere ;)
F) If your results are a lot better than last year, suspect that one of the two
scans is bad. Have him look for positional differences between the two
scans (they control what gets scanned and will change the reading). See
if you can get them to do a second scan at no charge to make sure that
the most recent scan is accurate and can be safely used to plan what you
will be doing for the next year.
Best of luck,
Art
"Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote in message news:13r4nf6dq1pbj72@corp.supernews,com ...
> You have opted for plenty of protein. Have you succeeded in building bone?
>
Well, I hope that this is worth the delay :)
My first and last DEXA readings were:
BMD young age
g/cm2 adult matched
4/21/98 hip neck 0.874 -1.63 -1.3
troch 0.754 -1.60 -1.5
spine L1 0.969 -1.59 -1.63
L2 0.959 -2.34 -2.37
L3 0.992 -2.07 -2.10
L4 0.905 -2.79 -2.83
4/03/07 hip neck 0.953 -0.9 -0.5
troch 0.921 -0.1 -0.1
spine L1 1.310 1.2 1.1
L2 1.336 0.8 0.6
L3 1.335 0.8 0.6
L4 1.262 0.2 0.0
Changes made:
1) increased protein in diet
2) supplements for bone growth: calcium, magnesium, boron, zinc
was also taking glucosamine, chrondroitin and MSM; I have a vague recollection
of a study suggesting that they promoted an increase in bone density by helping
the matrix that binds the calcium, but couldn't find the reference.
3) exercise: started weight lifting in the gym, selecting exercises based on how
much I thought they would promote bone growth (pragmatically speaking, that
amounts to selecting "pushing" exercises that place stress on as much of the body
as possible).
4) took Fosamax for 2.5 - 3.5 years (not sure which)
Notes: scans were done on two different machines with two different operators.
My suggestions for you:
1) Notes/caveats:
A. I'm not a doctor, I haven't seen your DEXA results or you, so don't take my
recommendations as medical advice.
B. Your bones don't have nerves - you do something to stress them (via impact
or fighting resistance) and they 1) deal with it, no problem; 2) deal with it
but react by getting stronger; or 3) fracture or break without warning. Given
your DEXA results, be careful about increasing the level of stress on your
bones. You may want to postpone any changes in exercise/activity level until
you've talked with your doctor (especially since that will be happening in
March)
2) Between now and your next DEXA (March)
A. See if you can get your doctor to send you a copy of your DEXA. You want
the 3-page one that shows detailed hip and spine information. If you didn't
have the DEXA done in your doctor's office, this may require a little bit of
"social engineering" - aka lying. One place I had a DEXA done didn't want
to give it to me, so I needed to say that I needed a copy I could bring with me
to the doctor. Then they gave me a one page summary (which is what they
normally send to the doctor). I needed to wait until a supervisor was
available so I could explain what I wanted in detail (and show her copies of
other DEXA results that I had). I then waited a few days while they contacted
the manufacturer to learn how to set their machine to produce the report I
wanted.
B. http :// courses.washington.edu/bonephys/mis/opmistakes.html has some
case studies on how to read a DEXA. Study those carefully - when you have
your next DEXA you want to be able to look at the detailed results and see if
there are any problems that your doctor may have missed. My concern is that,
given your low score for your spine (-4.1) there may be some compression
fractures. If so, their presence should play a major factor in determining
what kind of exercises you can do safely.
C. Talk with Lyle McDonald (www .bodyrecomposition,com ) about protein
requirements - he can talk about it much more knowledgeably than I.
Make sure to let him know your types and levels of activity since it does
affect your protein requirements.
D. Evaluate your normal activities in terms of what they do to stress your
skeleton. As an example, when you walk, your heel hits the ground, getting
most of the impact. As your weight is transferred to that foot, each bone
gets some of the impact (presumably less than the bone before). Since,
your thigh and spine are in a straight line at any time during the impact, there
is a good likelihood that relatively little of the impact actually makes it to
the spine and most of what does will be absorbed by the lower portion of the
spine.
E. The impression I have is that the vast majority of your walking is on dirt. If
so, consider walking on asphalt or concrete each day since they absorb less
of the impact than dirt. I would expect 0.25 to 1.00 miles daily to be
sufficient for your purposes.
3) When you have the DEXA done and see your doctor
A) Make sure to get the detailed DEXA results for both scans.
B) Discuss exercise: is walking sufficient? Can you safely increase the stress
on your spine by wearing a light day pack with some light weight in it
(no weight for a few months, a couple pounds for a few months, a few
more for the next few... - what does he say? How much should you
increment the weight? How long should you wait to increment it?)
C) If your results are worse than last year, be prepared to discuss alternatives:
will changing your exercises be enough, or do you need to take some form
of medication? (If results are worse I would expect him to recommend
medication.)
D) If your results are the same as last year, congratulations - your dietary
changes are a probably a good thing. You may persuade him to let you
have another year without medication to see what happens if you add
exercise. (Iffy, to be honest - your DEXA results are low, so he may
want to give you a quick boost by taking medication for a couple years)
E) If your results are a little better than last year, congratulations - your
no-medication argument may get somewhere ;)
F) If your results are a lot better than last year, suspect that one of the two
scans is bad. Have him look for positional differences between the two
scans (they control what gets scanned and will change the reading). See
if you can get them to do a second scan at no charge to make sure that
the most recent scan is accurate and can be safely used to plan what you
will be doing for the next year.
Best of luck,
Art
Re: Monitoring pH to encourage bone regrowth
Hello Art,
I really appreciate your taking the time to write in such detail. It has
taken me awhile to make time to pursue the links you provided. My thoughts:
Re: 1B, Increasing stress on bones: I have dialed back some on stresses.
For example, I used a mechanical splitter to split my firewood this spring,
even though I enjoy the exercise of using my 12 lb maul.
On the other hand, I didn't want to make myself an osteoporotic
cripple. So I guardedly go about life much as before (in terms of
stresses), conscious not to overdo it.
Re: 2A, DEXA readings: Our hospital had no problem providing me with a
first-class, three page, detailed color printout of the scan data. My L1 -
L4 age-matched readings are -3.7, -3.9, -3.2 and -1.8. None too encouraging.
Re: 2B, Interpreting DEXA: I studied the "DEXA Mistakes" site extensively.
It was sobering and kind of scary. I will bear all of this in mind when I
get my next DEXA.
Re: 2C, Protein requirements: I spent some time on this site. I am
wondering how it is that more protein would help against osteoporosis. Any
thoughts on that? I found it easier to understand Lyle's comments on how
my previous ultra low fat diet could have led to falling testosterone, with
consequent negative effects on my bones.
Re: 2D-E, Exercise types: I have resumed lifting weights some, and am even
more diligent about walking or hiking daily. Now that it's getting light
earlier, I have resumed my one hour morning walks along the road, where I
pick up litter to give it extra focus.
We have also had warm enough temperatures that I have been able to take
a 20-minute sunbath at midday for the past week. I will be much more
conscious about taking advantage of natural self-produced Vitamin D this
year.
My almost daily trail building excursions in the canyon behind our
place involve elevation changes equivalent to climbing to the top of a
twenty- to forty-story building. I have to believe that such activity is
beneficial. I like the exercise recommendations at
http :// findarticles,com /p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_261/ai_n13471772 .
Re: 3. Responding to the next DEXA: Your suggestions all make sense. I
will want to have a detailed discussion about the results. And if they are
worse, I don't see any alternative to medication, despite my reservations.
My own prediction is that there will be enough improvement to warrant
continued pursuit of gradual bone redevelopment without meds. (Or should I
say, "my own hope".)
This evening I finish a 9-day experiment on the alkalizing properties of my
supplements themselves. I expect to post them tomorrow, in this thread.
Thanks again, Art.
"Art S" <TheDabbler01@att,net > wrote in message
news:kuZtj.233255$MJ6.188325@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att,net ...
>
> "Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote in message
> news:13r4nf6dq1pbj72@corp.supernews,com ...
>> You have opted for plenty of protein. Have you succeeded in building
>> bone?
>>
>
> Well, I hope that this is worth the delay :)
>
> My first and last DEXA readings were:
>
> BMD young
> age
> g/cm2 adult
> matched
> 4/21/98 hip neck 0.874 -1.63 -1.3
> troch
> 0.754 -1.60 -1.5
> spine L1
> -1.59 -1.63
> L2
> -2.34 -2.37
> L3
> -2.07 -2.10
> L4
> -2.79 -2.83
>
> 4/03/07 hip neck 0.953 -0.9 -0.5
> troch
> 921 -0.1 -0.1
> spine L1 1.310 1.2
> 1.1
> L2 1.336 0.8
> 0.6
> L3 1.335 0.8
> 0.6
> L4 1.262 0.2
> 0.0
>
> Changes made:
> 1) increased protein in diet
> 2) supplements for bone growth: calcium, magnesium, boron, zinc
> was also taking glucosamine, chrondroitin and MSM; I have a vague
> recollection
> of a study suggesting that they promoted an increase in bone density
> by helping
> the matrix that binds the calcium, but couldn't find the reference.
> 3) exercise: started weight lifting in the gym, selecting exercises
> based on how
> much I thought they would promote bone growth (pragmatically
> speaking, that
> amounts to selecting "pushing" exercises that place stress on as
> much of the body
> as possible).
> 4) took Fosamax for 2.5 - 3.5 years (not sure which)
>
> Notes: scans were done on two different machines with two different
> operators.
>
>
> My suggestions for you:
> 1) Notes/caveats:
> A. I'm not a doctor, I haven't seen your DEXA results or you, so
> don't take my
> recommendations as medical advice.
> B. Your bones don't have nerves - you do something to stress them
> (via impact
> or fighting resistance) and they 1) deal with it, no problem; 2)
> deal with it
> but react by getting stronger; or 3) fracture or break without
> warning. Given
> your DEXA results, be careful about increasing the level of
> stress on your
> bones. You may want to postpone any changes in
> exercise/activity level until
> you've talked with your doctor (especially since that will be
> happening in
> March)
> 2) Between now and your next DEXA (March)
> A. See if you can get your doctor to send you a copy of your DEXA.
> You want
> the 3-page one that shows detailed hip and spine information. If
> you didn't
> have the DEXA done in your doctor's office, this may require a
> little bit of
> "social engineering" - aka lying. One place I had a DEXA done
> didn't want
> to give it to me, so I needed to say that I needed a copy I
> could bring with me
> to the doctor. Then they gave me a one page summary (which is
> what they
> normally send to the doctor). I needed to wait until a
> supervisor was
> available so I could explain what I wanted in detail (and show
> her copies of
> other DEXA results that I had). I then waited a few days while
> they contacted
> the manufacturer to learn how to set their machine to produce
> the report I
> wanted.
> B. http :// courses.washington.edu/bonephys/mis/opmistakes.html has
> some
> case studies on how to read a DEXA. Study those carefully -
> when you have
> your next DEXA you want to be able to look at the detailed
> results and see if
> there are any problems that your doctor may have missed. My
> concern is that,
> given your low score for your spine (-4.1) there may be some
> compression
> fractures. If so, their presence should play a major factor in
> determining
> what kind of exercises you can do safely.
> C. Talk with Lyle McDonald (www .bodyrecomposition,com ) about protein
> requirements - he can talk about it much more knowledgeably
> than I.
> Make sure to let him know your types and levels of activity
> since it does
> affect your protein requirements.
> D. Evaluate your normal activities in terms of what they do to
> stress your
> skeleton. As an example, when you walk, your heel hits the
> ground, getting
> most of the impact. As your weight is transferred to that
> foot, each bone
> gets some of the impact (presumably less than the bone before).
> Since,
> your thigh and spine are in a straight line at any time during
> the impact, there
> is a good likelihood that relatively little of the impact
> actually makes it to
> the spine and most of what does will be absorbed by the lower
> portion of the
> spine.
> E. The impression I have is that the vast majority of your walking
> is on dirt. If
> so, consider walking on asphalt or concrete each day since they
> absorb less
> of the impact than dirt. I would expect 0.25 to 1.00 miles
> daily to be
> sufficient for your purposes.
> 3) When you have the DEXA done and see your doctor
> A) Make sure to get the detailed DEXA results for both scans.
> B) Discuss exercise: is walking sufficient? Can you safely
> increase the stress
> on your spine by wearing a light day pack with some light
> weight in it
> (no weight for a few months, a couple pounds for a few
> months, a few
> more for the next few... - what does he say? How much should
> you
> increment the weight? How long should you wait to increment
> it?)
> C) If your results are worse than last year, be prepared to
> discuss alternatives:
> will changing your exercises be enough, or do you need to
> take some form
> of medication? (If results are worse I would expect him to
> recommend
> medication.)
> D) If your results are the same as last year, congratulations -
> your dietary
> changes are a probably a good thing. You may persuade him
> to let you
> have another year without medication to see what happens if
> you add
> exercise. (Iffy, to be honest - your DEXA results are low,
> so he may
> want to give you a quick boost by taking medication for a
> couple years)
> E) If your results are a little better than last year,
> congratulations - your
> no-medication argument may get somewhere ;)
> F) If your results are a lot better than last year, suspect that
> one of the two
> scans is bad. Have him look for positional differences
> between the two
> scans (they control what gets scanned and will change the
> reading). See
> if you can get them to do a second scan at no charge to make
> sure that
> the most recent scan is accurate and can be safely used to
> plan what you
> will be doing for the next year.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Art
>
>
>
>
Hello Art,
I really appreciate your taking the time to write in such detail. It has
taken me awhile to make time to pursue the links you provided. My thoughts:
Re: 1B, Increasing stress on bones: I have dialed back some on stresses.
For example, I used a mechanical splitter to split my firewood this spring,
even though I enjoy the exercise of using my 12 lb maul.
On the other hand, I didn't want to make myself an osteoporotic
cripple. So I guardedly go about life much as before (in terms of
stresses), conscious not to overdo it.
Re: 2A, DEXA readings: Our hospital had no problem providing me with a
first-class, three page, detailed color printout of the scan data. My L1 -
L4 age-matched readings are -3.7, -3.9, -3.2 and -1.8. None too encouraging.
Re: 2B, Interpreting DEXA: I studied the "DEXA Mistakes" site extensively.
It was sobering and kind of scary. I will bear all of this in mind when I
get my next DEXA.
Re: 2C, Protein requirements: I spent some time on this site. I am
wondering how it is that more protein would help against osteoporosis. Any
thoughts on that? I found it easier to understand Lyle's comments on how
my previous ultra low fat diet could have led to falling testosterone, with
consequent negative effects on my bones.
Re: 2D-E, Exercise types: I have resumed lifting weights some, and am even
more diligent about walking or hiking daily. Now that it's getting light
earlier, I have resumed my one hour morning walks along the road, where I
pick up litter to give it extra focus.
We have also had warm enough temperatures that I have been able to take
a 20-minute sunbath at midday for the past week. I will be much more
conscious about taking advantage of natural self-produced Vitamin D this
year.
My almost daily trail building excursions in the canyon behind our
place involve elevation changes equivalent to climbing to the top of a
twenty- to forty-story building. I have to believe that such activity is
beneficial. I like the exercise recommendations at
http :// findarticles,com /p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_261/ai_n13471772 .
Re: 3. Responding to the next DEXA: Your suggestions all make sense. I
will want to have a detailed discussion about the results. And if they are
worse, I don't see any alternative to medication, despite my reservations.
My own prediction is that there will be enough improvement to warrant
continued pursuit of gradual bone redevelopment without meds. (Or should I
say, "my own hope".)
This evening I finish a 9-day experiment on the alkalizing properties of my
supplements themselves. I expect to post them tomorrow, in this thread.
Thanks again, Art.
"Art S" <TheDabbler01@att,net > wrote in message
news:kuZtj.233255$MJ6.188325@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att,net ...
>
> "Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote in message
> news:13r4nf6dq1pbj72@corp.supernews,com ...
>> You have opted for plenty of protein. Have you succeeded in building
>> bone?
>>
>
> Well, I hope that this is worth the delay :)
>
> My first and last DEXA readings were:
>
> BMD young
> age
> g/cm2 adult
> matched
> 4/21/98 hip neck 0.874 -1.63 -1.3
> troch
> 0.754 -1.60 -1.5
> spine L1
> -1.59 -1.63
> L2
> -2.34 -2.37
> L3
> -2.07 -2.10
> L4
> -2.79 -2.83
>
> 4/03/07 hip neck 0.953 -0.9 -0.5
> troch
> 921 -0.1 -0.1
> spine L1 1.310 1.2
> 1.1
> L2 1.336 0.8
> 0.6
> L3 1.335 0.8
> 0.6
> L4 1.262 0.2
> 0.0
>
> Changes made:
> 1) increased protein in diet
> 2) supplements for bone growth: calcium, magnesium, boron, zinc
> was also taking glucosamine, chrondroitin and MSM; I have a vague
> recollection
> of a study suggesting that they promoted an increase in bone density
> by helping
> the matrix that binds the calcium, but couldn't find the reference.
> 3) exercise: started weight lifting in the gym, selecting exercises
> based on how
> much I thought they would promote bone growth (pragmatically
> speaking, that
> amounts to selecting "pushing" exercises that place stress on as
> much of the body
> as possible).
> 4) took Fosamax for 2.5 - 3.5 years (not sure which)
>
> Notes: scans were done on two different machines with two different
> operators.
>
>
> My suggestions for you:
> 1) Notes/caveats:
> A. I'm not a doctor, I haven't seen your DEXA results or you, so
> don't take my
> recommendations as medical advice.
> B. Your bones don't have nerves - you do something to stress them
> (via impact
> or fighting resistance) and they 1) deal with it, no problem; 2)
> deal with it
> but react by getting stronger; or 3) fracture or break without
> warning. Given
> your DEXA results, be careful about increasing the level of
> stress on your
> bones. You may want to postpone any changes in
> exercise/activity level until
> you've talked with your doctor (especially since that will be
> happening in
> March)
> 2) Between now and your next DEXA (March)
> A. See if you can get your doctor to send you a copy of your DEXA.
> You want
> the 3-page one that shows detailed hip and spine information. If
> you didn't
> have the DEXA done in your doctor's office, this may require a
> little bit of
> "social engineering" - aka lying. One place I had a DEXA done
> didn't want
> to give it to me, so I needed to say that I needed a copy I
> could bring with me
> to the doctor. Then they gave me a one page summary (which is
> what they
> normally send to the doctor). I needed to wait until a
> supervisor was
> available so I could explain what I wanted in detail (and show
> her copies of
> other DEXA results that I had). I then waited a few days while
> they contacted
> the manufacturer to learn how to set their machine to produce
> the report I
> wanted.
> B. http :// courses.washington.edu/bonephys/mis/opmistakes.html has
> some
> case studies on how to read a DEXA. Study those carefully -
> when you have
> your next DEXA you want to be able to look at the detailed
> results and see if
> there are any problems that your doctor may have missed. My
> concern is that,
> given your low score for your spine (-4.1) there may be some
> compression
> fractures. If so, their presence should play a major factor in
> determining
> what kind of exercises you can do safely.
> C. Talk with Lyle McDonald (www .bodyrecomposition,com ) about protein
> requirements - he can talk about it much more knowledgeably
> than I.
> Make sure to let him know your types and levels of activity
> since it does
> affect your protein requirements.
> D. Evaluate your normal activities in terms of what they do to
> stress your
> skeleton. As an example, when you walk, your heel hits the
> ground, getting
> most of the impact. As your weight is transferred to that
> foot, each bone
> gets some of the impact (presumably less than the bone before).
> Since,
> your thigh and spine are in a straight line at any time during
> the impact, there
> is a good likelihood that relatively little of the impact
> actually makes it to
> the spine and most of what does will be absorbed by the lower
> portion of the
> spine.
> E. The impression I have is that the vast majority of your walking
> is on dirt. If
> so, consider walking on asphalt or concrete each day since they
> absorb less
> of the impact than dirt. I would expect 0.25 to 1.00 miles
> daily to be
> sufficient for your purposes.
> 3) When you have the DEXA done and see your doctor
> A) Make sure to get the detailed DEXA results for both scans.
> B) Discuss exercise: is walking sufficient? Can you safely
> increase the stress
> on your spine by wearing a light day pack with some light
> weight in it
> (no weight for a few months, a couple pounds for a few
> months, a few
> more for the next few... - what does he say? How much should
> you
> increment the weight? How long should you wait to increment
> it?)
> C) If your results are worse than last year, be prepared to
> discuss alternatives:
> will changing your exercises be enough, or do you need to
> take some form
> of medication? (If results are worse I would expect him to
> recommend
> medication.)
> D) If your results are the same as last year, congratulations -
> your dietary
> changes are a probably a good thing. You may persuade him
> to let you
> have another year without medication to see what happens if
> you add
> exercise. (Iffy, to be honest - your DEXA results are low,
> so he may
> want to give you a quick boost by taking medication for a
> couple years)
> E) If your results are a little better than last year,
> congratulations - your
> no-medication argument may get somewhere ;)
> F) If your results are a lot better than last year, suspect that
> one of the two
> scans is bad. Have him look for positional differences
> between the two
> scans (they control what gets scanned and will change the
> reading). See
> if you can get them to do a second scan at no charge to make
> sure that
> the most recent scan is accurate and can be safely used to
> plan what you
> will be doing for the next year.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Art
>
>
>
>
Re: Monitoring pH to encourage bone regrowth
"Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote in message news:13rmqnkr7qf3656@corp.supernews,com ...
> Hello Art,
>
>
>
> I really appreciate your taking the time to write in such detail. It has taken me awhile to make
> time to pursue the links you provided. My thoughts:
>
> Re: 1B, Increasing stress on bones: I have dialed back some on stresses. For example, I used a
> mechanical splitter to split my firewood this spring, even though I enjoy the exercise of using my
> 12 lb maul.
>
> On the other hand, I didn't want to make myself an osteoporotic cripple. So I guardedly go
> about life much as before (in terms of stresses), conscious not to overdo it.
>
As I said, bones don't have nerves: Given your DEXA scores, I would try
to err on the side of caution as well.
>
> Re: 2A, DEXA readings: Our hospital had no problem providing me with a first-class, three page,
> detailed color printout of the scan data. My L1 - L4 age-matched readings are -3.7, -3.9, -3.2
> and -1.8. None too encouraging.
>
The L4 reading (-1.8) seems very anomalous. I would check carefully to see
if it is compressed. Check the cases for compression fractures - they are easy
to miss.
> Re: 2C, Protein requirements: I spent some time on this site. I am wondering how it is that more
> protein would help against osteoporosis. Any thoughts on that? I found it easier to understand
> Lyle's comments on how my previous ultra low fat diet could have led to falling testosterone, with
> consequent negative effects on my bones.
I don't know that it does, in general. In my case, I decided to go the weight
lifting route. Muscles, like bones, require progressive resistance to get stronger.
And they need the proper nutrients. That meant if I wanted my bones to get
stronger, my muscles needed to get stronger. For my muscles to get stronger,
I needed to eat enough protein.
My concern, in your case, is that if you aren't getting enough protein, your body
will take it from your internal organs (heart, etc.) (While that is the way I've
heard it stated, I suspect a more accurate statement would be that the body is
continually remodelling lean mass (tearing it down and replacing it). If someone
isn't getting enough protein, the muscles and organs will be torn down but can't
be rebuilt.) That is more of a Lyle question.
>
>
>
> Re: 2D-E, Exercise types: I have resumed lifting weights some, and am even more diligent about
> walking or hiking daily. Now that it's getting light earlier, I have resumed my one hour morning
> walks along the road, where I pick up litter to give it extra focus.
>
Sound good. Check with your doctor about what kind of weight you can use
(hold, etc) without causing a compression fracture in your spine.
> We have also had warm enough temperatures that I have been able to take a 20-minute sunbath at
> midday for the past week. I will be much more conscious about taking advantage of natural
> self-produced Vitamin D this year.
>
To be honest, I tend to gloss over Vitamin D requirements - I live in Las
Vegas, wear shorts most of the time (including to work) and try to walk
outside, so I get a fair amount of exposure to sunshine and I just go on the
assumption that I am getting enough Vitamin D.
You might want to reread Juhana Harju's posts since a lot of them are
about Vitamin D. (Try http :// groups.google,com /advanced_search?q=&
to see them). One of the links mentioned is http :// www .cfp.ca/cgi/content/full/53/5/841
which may be helpful.
> My almost daily trail building excursions in the canyon behind our place involve elevation
> changes equivalent to climbing to the top of a twenty- to forty-story building. I have to believe
> that such activity is beneficial. I like the exercise recommendations at
> http :// findarticles,com /p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_261/ai_n13471772 .
>
From what I can see, the exercises listed on that page are probably quite
good for you. If you had Osteopenia (or when you get to that point),
they probably wouldn't be as good because your bones would be adapted
to the increased stress.
Keep in mind that there is a very big difference between an exercise/
activity that is beneficial and one that helps your bones to grow
denser. Walking up hill, for example, is good for your cardiovascular
system. But walking down hill is probably better for your bones: when
you go up hill, your foot "falls" less than when you are walking on level
ground, so there is less impact. When you go down hill, though, your foot
"falls" further, which takes longer, so gravity has that fraction of a second
to increase the speed, resulting in increased impact. In addition, you are
probably going down hill faster than you went up hill (at least I find I go
down hill a LOT faster than I go up hill), again causing more impact than
on level or inclined ground.
>
>
> Re: 3. Responding to the next DEXA: Your suggestions all make sense. I will want to have a
> detailed discussion about the results. And if they are worse, I don't see any alternative to
> medication, despite my reservations.
>
> My own prediction is that there will be enough improvement to warrant continued pursuit of
> gradual bone redevelopment without meds. (Or should I say, "my own hope".)
>
I hope so too - it is reasonably easy to measure and to take action. I view any
effective non-medicinal as a very good thing. Too many people are suffering from
side effects from the medications being used.
>
> This evening I finish a 9-day experiment on the alkalizing properties of my supplements
> themselves. I expect to post them tomorrow, in this thread.
>
OK. Could you post after your next DEXA, as well? I'm quite curious about
the results.
>
> Thanks again, Art.
>
You're welcome.
Art
"Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote in message news:13rmqnkr7qf3656@corp.supernews,com ...
> Hello Art,
>
>
>
> I really appreciate your taking the time to write in such detail. It has taken me awhile to make
> time to pursue the links you provided. My thoughts:
>
> Re: 1B, Increasing stress on bones: I have dialed back some on stresses. For example, I used a
> mechanical splitter to split my firewood this spring, even though I enjoy the exercise of using my
> 12 lb maul.
>
> On the other hand, I didn't want to make myself an osteoporotic cripple. So I guardedly go
> about life much as before (in terms of stresses), conscious not to overdo it.
>
As I said, bones don't have nerves: Given your DEXA scores, I would try
to err on the side of caution as well.
>
> Re: 2A, DEXA readings: Our hospital had no problem providing me with a first-class, three page,
> detailed color printout of the scan data. My L1 - L4 age-matched readings are -3.7, -3.9, -3.2
> and -1.8. None too encouraging.
>
The L4 reading (-1.8) seems very anomalous. I would check carefully to see
if it is compressed. Check the cases for compression fractures - they are easy
to miss.
> Re: 2C, Protein requirements: I spent some time on this site. I am wondering how it is that more
> protein would help against osteoporosis. Any thoughts on that? I found it easier to understand
> Lyle's comments on how my previous ultra low fat diet could have led to falling testosterone, with
> consequent negative effects on my bones.
I don't know that it does, in general. In my case, I decided to go the weight
lifting route. Muscles, like bones, require progressive resistance to get stronger.
And they need the proper nutrients. That meant if I wanted my bones to get
stronger, my muscles needed to get stronger. For my muscles to get stronger,
I needed to eat enough protein.
My concern, in your case, is that if you aren't getting enough protein, your body
will take it from your internal organs (heart, etc.) (While that is the way I've
heard it stated, I suspect a more accurate statement would be that the body is
continually remodelling lean mass (tearing it down and replacing it). If someone
isn't getting enough protein, the muscles and organs will be torn down but can't
be rebuilt.) That is more of a Lyle question.
>
>
>
> Re: 2D-E, Exercise types: I have resumed lifting weights some, and am even more diligent about
> walking or hiking daily. Now that it's getting light earlier, I have resumed my one hour morning
> walks along the road, where I pick up litter to give it extra focus.
>
Sound good. Check with your doctor about what kind of weight you can use
(hold, etc) without causing a compression fracture in your spine.
> We have also had warm enough temperatures that I have been able to take a 20-minute sunbath at
> midday for the past week. I will be much more conscious about taking advantage of natural
> self-produced Vitamin D this year.
>
To be honest, I tend to gloss over Vitamin D requirements - I live in Las
Vegas, wear shorts most of the time (including to work) and try to walk
outside, so I get a fair amount of exposure to sunshine and I just go on the
assumption that I am getting enough Vitamin D.
You might want to reread Juhana Harju's posts since a lot of them are
about Vitamin D. (Try http :// groups.google,com /advanced_search?q=&
to see them). One of the links mentioned is http :// www .cfp.ca/cgi/content/full/53/5/841
which may be helpful.
> My almost daily trail building excursions in the canyon behind our place involve elevation
> changes equivalent to climbing to the top of a twenty- to forty-story building. I have to believe
> that such activity is beneficial. I like the exercise recommendations at
> http :// findarticles,com /p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_261/ai_n13471772 .
>
From what I can see, the exercises listed on that page are probably quite
good for you. If you had Osteopenia (or when you get to that point),
they probably wouldn't be as good because your bones would be adapted
to the increased stress.
Keep in mind that there is a very big difference between an exercise/
activity that is beneficial and one that helps your bones to grow
denser. Walking up hill, for example, is good for your cardiovascular
system. But walking down hill is probably better for your bones: when
you go up hill, your foot "falls" less than when you are walking on level
ground, so there is less impact. When you go down hill, though, your foot
"falls" further, which takes longer, so gravity has that fraction of a second
to increase the speed, resulting in increased impact. In addition, you are
probably going down hill faster than you went up hill (at least I find I go
down hill a LOT faster than I go up hill), again causing more impact than
on level or inclined ground.
>
>
> Re: 3. Responding to the next DEXA: Your suggestions all make sense. I will want to have a
> detailed discussion about the results. And if they are worse, I don't see any alternative to
> medication, despite my reservations.
>
> My own prediction is that there will be enough improvement to warrant continued pursuit of
> gradual bone redevelopment without meds. (Or should I say, "my own hope".)
>
I hope so too - it is reasonably easy to measure and to take action. I view any
effective non-medicinal as a very good thing. Too many people are suffering from
side effects from the medications being used.
>
> This evening I finish a 9-day experiment on the alkalizing properties of my supplements
> themselves. I expect to post them tomorrow, in this thread.
>
OK. Could you post after your next DEXA, as well? I'm quite curious about
the results.
>
> Thanks again, Art.
>
You're welcome.
Art
Re: Monitoring pH to encourage bone regrowth
I wrote earlier:
> I have wondered whether the timing of taking the pills would affect the pH
> readings and thereby complicate the process of linking changes to
> properties of various foods.
> So far I haven't been able to see that. I suppose I could skip the
> pills for a day and then double up to see how pH reacted.
<snip>
In an effort to see whether my supplement was itself alkalinizing, I went
ahead and tripled my intake of the calcium/magnesium/vitamin D supplement
for one day, then took no pills at all for two days. As usual, I checked
urinary pH morning, afternoon and evening.
Here are the results. I will give readings starting on a Monday, leading up
to the experiment starting Friday, and continuing through Monday
(yesterday). The pH figures given are the averages of the three daily
readings.
Day pH
Monday 7.23
Tuesday 7.27
Wednesday 7.12
Thursday 7.02
FRIDAY 7.38 Took triple supplements
Saturday 7.20 Took no supplements
Sunday 6.73 Took no supplements
Monday 6.87 Resumed supplements
Tuesday 7.07
Note that the pH is logarithmic, with 7.0 as the neutral point. Target
range is 6.75 - 7.25, which is a very modest swing in acidity/alkalinity.
The triple dose didn't give a huge jolt.
On the other hand, when I took no supplement pills, the averge pH did fall
into slightly acid territory. Once I resumed supplementation, it took a
couple of days to bring the pH back to pre-test levels.
Next, I did an extensive retrospective look at my food logs going back
several months, looking for any similar spikes in alkalinity.
I found some spikes that were triggered when I forgot to take the morning
half of the supplement pill, then took the first half of the pill in
mid-afternoon and the second half in the evening, or took the whole pill in
the evening.
Other spikes seem to have been provoked by eating plenty of watermelon and
other melons, or bananas. One time, I'd eaten half a package of dried
bananas at a sitting.
BTW, these alkalinizing events tend to appear in the pH readings fairly
soon, whereas "protein bombs" can take 36 hours to show up.
I should add that I am retired, eat only at home, and have close control
over my diet. I had no protein bombs during the test period, so am aware of
no dietary perturbations that would cloud the experiment's results.
As to what it all means, I would conclude the following:
1) A daily calcium/magnesium/Vitamin D pill can help nudge bodily pH into
alkaline territory, provided one pays close attention to diet (in terms of
acidifying and alkalinizing foods)
2) Megadoses of the supplement increased the effect only slightly (though
perhaps continued megadoses would have increased pH even further)
3) It makes sense to divide the supplement dose; this smooths out the
alkalizing effect over the 24 hour period
One more thought, if you've read this far. A lot of mankind's carbon
dioxide has been removed from the atmosphere by dissolving in seawater. As
a consequence, the acidity of the ocean is increasing. There is real
concern that if the acidity continues to increase, organisms that build
shells out of calcium carbonate may no longer be able to do so. Those
organisms include many that are at the base of the food chain.
The similarity to the human body, in terms of building bone in an acid
environment, are unmistakeable.
I'm staking the first year of my self-treatment of osteoporosis on the
theory that one can create a favorable environment for strengthening bone by
controlling bodily pH.
I'll let you know how it works out. Next DEXA will be at the end of March.
I wrote earlier:
> I have wondered whether the timing of taking the pills would affect the pH
> readings and thereby complicate the process of linking changes to
> properties of various foods.
> So far I haven't been able to see that. I suppose I could skip the
> pills for a day and then double up to see how pH reacted.
<snip>
In an effort to see whether my supplement was itself alkalinizing, I went
ahead and tripled my intake of the calcium/magnesium/vitamin D supplement
for one day, then took no pills at all for two days. As usual, I checked
urinary pH morning, afternoon and evening.
Here are the results. I will give readings starting on a Monday, leading up
to the experiment starting Friday, and continuing through Monday
(yesterday). The pH figures given are the averages of the three daily
readings.
Day pH
Monday 7.23
Tuesday 7.27
Wednesday 7.12
Thursday 7.02
FRIDAY 7.38 Took triple supplements
Saturday 7.20 Took no supplements
Sunday 6.73 Took no supplements
Monday 6.87 Resumed supplements
Tuesday 7.07
Note that the pH is logarithmic, with 7.0 as the neutral point. Target
range is 6.75 - 7.25, which is a very modest swing in acidity/alkalinity.
The triple dose didn't give a huge jolt.
On the other hand, when I took no supplement pills, the averge pH did fall
into slightly acid territory. Once I resumed supplementation, it took a
couple of days to bring the pH back to pre-test levels.
Next, I did an extensive retrospective look at my food logs going back
several months, looking for any similar spikes in alkalinity.
I found some spikes that were triggered when I forgot to take the morning
half of the supplement pill, then took the first half of the pill in
mid-afternoon and the second half in the evening, or took the whole pill in
the evening.
Other spikes seem to have been provoked by eating plenty of watermelon and
other melons, or bananas. One time, I'd eaten half a package of dried
bananas at a sitting.
BTW, these alkalinizing events tend to appear in the pH readings fairly
soon, whereas "protein bombs" can take 36 hours to show up.
I should add that I am retired, eat only at home, and have close control
over my diet. I had no protein bombs during the test period, so am aware of
no dietary perturbations that would cloud the experiment's results.
As to what it all means, I would conclude the following:
1) A daily calcium/magnesium/Vitamin D pill can help nudge bodily pH into
alkaline territory, provided one pays close attention to diet (in terms of
acidifying and alkalinizing foods)
2) Megadoses of the supplement increased the effect only slightly (though
perhaps continued megadoses would have increased pH even further)
3) It makes sense to divide the supplement dose; this smooths out the
alkalizing effect over the 24 hour period
One more thought, if you've read this far. A lot of mankind's carbon
dioxide has been removed from the atmosphere by dissolving in seawater. As
a consequence, the acidity of the ocean is increasing. There is real
concern that if the acidity continues to increase, organisms that build
shells out of calcium carbonate may no longer be able to do so. Those
organisms include many that are at the base of the food chain.
The similarity to the human body, in terms of building bone in an acid
environment, are unmistakeable.
I'm staking the first year of my self-treatment of osteoporosis on the
theory that one can create a favorable environment for strengthening bone by
controlling bodily pH.
I'll let you know how it works out. Next DEXA will be at the end of March.
Re: Monitoring pH to encourage bone regrowth
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:27:30 -0800, "Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote:
>
>I studied labels on my multivitamin, and found that the tablets that I had
>taken for years (Centrum Silver) contained only 400 IU of Vitamin D
>(cholecalciferol). I have had a couple of skin cancers removed, so have
>been very careful to avoid direct sunlight, thus losing the Vitamin D that I
>might have received while outdoors. I am now supplementing with an
>additional 800 IU of Vitamin D.
>
>Each tablet also contains 200 mg of calcium. I now supplement this with an
>additional 1000 mg, as calcium carbonate.
>The tablet contains 100 mg of magnesium. The combined D-Ca-Mg supplement
>contains 500 mg of magnesium. I split the calcium/magnesium/Vitamin D pill
>and take halves in the morning and evening. I take the multivitamin at
>midday.
I was very interested to read what you wrote.
I am a female age 58 with osteoporosis for the past couple of years.
Like you, I was surprised at the diagnosis because I do a fair amount
of walking and climbing stairs and hiking, plus drinking lots of milk
my whole life.
I had not discussed diet with my doctor other than calcium. I was on
Actonel for 3 years, but my osteoporosis kept getting worse. Starting
last June, I discontinued Actonel and am now on Forteo daily
injections. Per my doctor's recommendation, I had been taking the
following:
breakfast: 600mg calcium + 400 IU vitamin D
lunch: multivitamin with 120mg calcium + 400 IU vitamin D
dinner: 600mg calcium + 400 IU vitamin D
Starting last June, he told me to add 400 IU vitamin D at each meal,
resulting in a daily total of 1320mg calcium + 2400IU vitamin D (in
addition to milk, yogurt, etc).
I won't have another bone density test until June 2008, so I don't
know if my condition is improving or not, but I certainly hope so.
If it isn't, I guess I would consider moving to a vegan diet along the
lines that you are following.
I have gone skiing twice this winter, and I am a little nervous about
it.
I ski very conservatively, but it's often the skiers around you
causing problems.
JP
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:27:30 -0800, "Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote:
>
>I studied labels on my multivitamin, and found that the tablets that I had
>taken for years (Centrum Silver) contained only 400 IU of Vitamin D
>(cholecalciferol). I have had a couple of skin cancers removed, so have
>been very careful to avoid direct sunlight, thus losing the Vitamin D that I
>might have received while outdoors. I am now supplementing with an
>additional 800 IU of Vitamin D.
>
>Each tablet also contains 200 mg of calcium. I now supplement this with an
>additional 1000 mg, as calcium carbonate.
>The tablet contains 100 mg of magnesium. The combined D-Ca-Mg supplement
>contains 500 mg of magnesium. I split the calcium/magnesium/Vitamin D pill
>and take halves in the morning and evening. I take the multivitamin at
>midday.
I was very interested to read what you wrote.
I am a female age 58 with osteoporosis for the past couple of years.
Like you, I was surprised at the diagnosis because I do a fair amount
of walking and climbing stairs and hiking, plus drinking lots of milk
my whole life.
I had not discussed diet with my doctor other than calcium. I was on
Actonel for 3 years, but my osteoporosis kept getting worse. Starting
last June, I discontinued Actonel and am now on Forteo daily
injections. Per my doctor's recommendation, I had been taking the
following:
breakfast: 600mg calcium + 400 IU vitamin D
lunch: multivitamin with 120mg calcium + 400 IU vitamin D
dinner: 600mg calcium + 400 IU vitamin D
Starting last June, he told me to add 400 IU vitamin D at each meal,
resulting in a daily total of 1320mg calcium + 2400IU vitamin D (in
addition to milk, yogurt, etc).
I won't have another bone density test until June 2008, so I don't
know if my condition is improving or not, but I certainly hope so.
If it isn't, I guess I would consider moving to a vegan diet along the
lines that you are following.
I have gone skiing twice this winter, and I am a little nervous about
it.
I ski very conservatively, but it's often the skiers around you
causing problems.
JP
Re: Monitoring pH to encourage bone regrowth
JP,
Thank you for responding. We seem to be on almost the same regimen as to
calcium. Based on what I have learned through this site, I believe I will
put away my fears of overdosing on Vitamin D and take more of it, as you
are. I am grateful you took the time to write.
I get the impression that magnesium is also very important. I believe
you'll find other posts in recent months that touch on that.
Roger the other skiers. Need I mention the snowboarders?!
Good luck, and thanks again.
Ole
<jp49@aol,com > wrote in message
news:tqfvq3lk02pucs2ggr7qja9frbj0ek1dc8@4ax,com ...
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:27:30 -0800, "Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote:
>>
>>I studied labels on my multivitamin, and found that the tablets that I had
>>taken for years (Centrum Silver) contained only 400 IU of Vitamin D
>>(cholecalciferol). I have had a couple of skin cancers removed, so have
>>been very careful to avoid direct sunlight, thus losing the Vitamin D that
>>I
>>might have received while outdoors. I am now supplementing with an
>>additional 800 IU of Vitamin D.
>>
>>Each tablet also contains 200 mg of calcium. I now supplement this with
>>an
>>additional 1000 mg, as calcium carbonate.
>
>>The tablet contains 100 mg of magnesium. The combined D-Ca-Mg supplement
>>contains 500 mg of magnesium. I split the calcium/magnesium/Vitamin D
>>pill
>>and take halves in the morning and evening. I take the multivitamin at
>>midday.
>
> I was very interested to read what you wrote.
> I am a female age 58 with osteoporosis for the past couple of years.
> Like you, I was surprised at the diagnosis because I do a fair amount
> of walking and climbing stairs and hiking, plus drinking lots of milk
> my whole life.
> I had not discussed diet with my doctor other than calcium. I was on
> Actonel for 3 years, but my osteoporosis kept getting worse. Starting
> last June, I discontinued Actonel and am now on Forteo daily
> injections. Per my doctor's recommendation, I had been taking the
> following:
> breakfast: 600mg calcium + 400 IU vitamin D
> lunch: multivitamin with 120mg calcium + 400 IU vitamin D
> dinner: 600mg calcium + 400 IU vitamin D
>
> Starting last June, he told me to add 400 IU vitamin D at each meal,
> resulting in a daily total of 1320mg calcium + 2400IU vitamin D (in
> addition to milk, yogurt, etc).
>
> I won't have another bone density test until June 2008, so I don't
> know if my condition is improving or not, but I certainly hope so.
> If it isn't, I guess I would consider moving to a vegan diet along the
> lines that you are following.
> I have gone skiing twice this winter, and I am a little nervous about
> it.
> I ski very conservatively, but it's often the skiers around you
> causing problems.
>
> JP
JP,
Thank you for responding. We seem to be on almost the same regimen as to
calcium. Based on what I have learned through this site, I believe I will
put away my fears of overdosing on Vitamin D and take more of it, as you
are. I am grateful you took the time to write.
I get the impression that magnesium is also very important. I believe
you'll find other posts in recent months that touch on that.
Roger the other skiers. Need I mention the snowboarders?!
Good luck, and thanks again.
Ole
<jp49@aol,com > wrote in message
news:tqfvq3lk02pucs2ggr7qja9frbj0ek1dc8@4ax,com ...
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:27:30 -0800, "Ole" <ole@pacific,net > wrote:
>>
>>I studied labels on my multivitamin, and found that the tablets that I had
>>taken for years (Centrum Silver) contained only 400 IU of Vitamin D
>>(cholecalciferol). I have had a couple of skin cancers removed, so have
>>been very careful to avoid direct sunlight, thus losing the Vitamin D that
>>I
>>might have received while outdoors. I am now supplementing with an
>>additional 800 IU of Vitamin D.
>>
>>Each tablet also contains 200 mg of calcium. I now supplement this with
>>an
>>additional 1000 mg, as calcium carbonate.
>
>>The tablet contains 100 mg of magnesium. The combined D-Ca-Mg supplement
>>contains 500 mg of magnesium. I split the calcium/magnesium/Vitamin D
>>pill
>>and take halves in the morning and evening. I take the multivitamin at
>>midday.
>
> I was very interested to read what you wrote.
> I am a female age 58 with osteoporosis for the past couple of years.
> Like you, I was surprised at the diagnosis because I do a fair amount
> of walking and climbing stairs and hiking, plus drinking lots of milk
> my whole life.
> I had not discussed diet with my doctor other than calcium. I was on
> Actonel for 3 years, but my osteoporosis kept getting worse. Starting
> last June, I discontinued Actonel and am now on Forteo daily
> injections. Per my doctor's recommendation, I had been taking the
> following:
> breakfast: 600mg calcium + 400 IU vitamin D
> lunch: multivitamin with 120mg calcium + 400 IU vitamin D
> dinner: 600mg calcium + 400 IU vitamin D
>
> Starting last June, he told me to add 400 IU vitamin D at each meal,
> resulting in a daily total of 1320mg calcium + 2400IU vitamin D (in
> addition to milk, yogurt, etc).
>
> I won't have another bone density test until June 2008, so I don't
> know if my condition is improving or not, but I certainly hope so.
> If it isn't, I guess I would consider moving to a vegan diet along the
> lines that you are following.
> I have gone skiing twice this winter, and I am a little nervous about
> it.
> I ski very conservatively, but it's often the skiers around you
> causing problems.
>
> JP
