Remove 13 ft. bearing wall - Beam choices?

Before I go and hire an architect, get building permit, etc. I would like to
get a ballpark on what this might look like...

I have a bearing wall (2x4 studs) which is 13 ft. long in my living room
which I am thinking of tearing out and replacing with a beam. (2 story
house - living room first floor.)

But looking at "span tables", this is looking like it would need a solid
wood beam like 4 x 10? Well a 10" beam would come down a bit far and not
look so good...

So how about a steel I-beam? I looked at span tables for I-beams and it
looks like a "W6x9" would do the trick? This would come down less and look
better.

Anyway I don't know a thing about steel I-beams. Does "W6x9" mean 6 inches
wide and 9 inches high?

Is there a smaller I-beam which would work for this span?

And I have 2x4 walls that this I-beam would connect to on each side. Would
the I-beam just rest on say 4 x 6 wood posts? Or have holes drilled in the
bottom of the I-beam and lag screw it to the wood posts?

And how would I fasten the joists resting on the top of the I-beam to the
I -beam?

On Apr 24, 10:06=EF=BF=BDam, "Bill" <billnomailnosp...@yahoo . com > wrote:
> Before I go and hire an architect, get building permit, etc. I would like =
to
> get a ballpark on what this might look like...
>
> I have a bearing wall (2x4 studs) which is 13 ft. long in my living room
> which I am thinking of tearing out and replacing with a beam. (2 story
> house - living room first floor.)
>
> But looking at "span tables", this is looking like it would need a solid
> wood beam like 4 x 10? Well a 10" beam would come down a bit far and not
> look so good...
>
> So how about a steel I-beam? I looked at span tables for I-beams and it
> looks like a "W6x9" would do the trick? This would come down less and look=

> better.
>
> Anyway I don't know a thing about steel I-beams. Does "W6x9" mean 6 inches=

> wide and 9 inches high?
>
> Is there a smaller I-beam which would work for this span?
>
> And I have 2x4 walls that this I-beam would connect to on each side. Would=

> the I-beam just rest on say 4 x 6 wood posts? Or have holes drilled in the=

> bottom of the I-beam and lag screw it to the wood posts?
>
> And how would I fasten the joists resting on the top of the I-beam to the
> I -beam?

you must support wall on both sides before removing.. temporary walls.

what you need is probably a engineered wood beam pair with a stell
plate insert.

get this evaluated by a structural engineer before proceeding. they
can give you specifics

On Apr 24, 10:13 am, "hall...@aol . com " <hall...@aol . com > wrote:
> On Apr 24, 10:06=EF=BF=BDam, "Bill" <billnomailnosp...@yahoo . com > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Before I go and hire an architect, get building permit, etc. I would lik=
e to
> > get a ballpark on what this might look like...
>
> > I have a bearing wall (2x4 studs) which is 13 ft. long in my living room=

> > which I am thinking of tearing out and replacing with a beam. (2 story
> > house - living room first floor.)
>
> > But looking at "span tables", this is looking like it would need a solid=

> > wood beam like 4 x 10? Well a 10" beam would come down a bit far and not=

> > look so good...
>
> > So how about a steel I-beam? I looked at span tables for I-beams and it
> > looks like a "W6x9" would do the trick? This would come down less and lo=
ok
> > better.
>
> > Anyway I don't know a thing about steel I-beams. Does "W6x9" mean 6 inch=
es
> > wide and 9 inches high?
>
> > Is there a smaller I-beam which would work for this span?
>
> > And I have 2x4 walls that this I-beam would connect to on each side. Wou=
ld
> > the I-beam just rest on say 4 x 6 wood posts? Or have holes drilled in t=
he
> > bottom of the I-beam and lag screw it to the wood posts?
>
> > And how would I fasten the joists resting on the top of the I-beam to th=
e
> > I -beam?
>
> you must support wall on both sides before removing.. temporary walls.
>
> what you need is probably a engineered wood beam pair with a stell
> plate insert.
>
> get this evaluated by a structural engineer before proceeding. they
> can give you specifics

As you are planning please remember that the "posts" supporting the
new beam must transfer their load onto a proper foundation or
location. That load may include the attic and roof loads. The
foundation beneath the first floor wall will need to be reviewed
whether it is a slab, basement or crawlspace. You can also place the
beam in the structure between the first and second floor by supporting
the ceiling/floor as described above, cutting all the floor joists,
inserting the beam and using joist hangers to tie the joists to the
side of the new cross beam.

I did this once and used an engineered wood beam because it is easier
to attach the joists and the supporting posts. I'm a Professional
Engineer and knew that I had to check the foundation, side supports,
the connections, etc. Oh and start looking for any pipes, vents and
electrical lines in the wall you are removing, all will have to be
relocated.

you must support wall on both sides before removing.. temporary walls.

You don't. Here's the way we do it:
* w w w .pbase . com /speedracer/image/2622653

Set your beam in the attic space directly over the existing wall. Bolt all
your ceiling joist to the new beam as in the photo.
Tear down existing wall - nothing moves.

Dave in Houston

On Apr 24, 12:35=EF=BF=BDpm, "Dave in Houston" <DeeJayEmCee...@att . net > wrot=
e:
> you must support wall on both sides before removing.. temporary walls.
>
> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD You don't. =EF=BF=BDHere's the way we do it: * w w w =
.pbase . com /speedracer/image/2622653
>
> Set your beam in the attic space directly over the existing wall. =EF=BF=
=BDBolt all
> your ceiling joist to the new beam as in the photo.
> Tear down existing wall - nothing moves.
>
> Dave in Houston

get pro help the roof rafters MIGHT not be strong enough to take tha
added load..........

On 2008-04-24, hallerb@aol . com <hallerb@aol . com > wrote:

> On Apr 24, 12:35?pm, "Dave in Houston" <DeeJayEmCee...@att . net > wrote:
>
> > Set your beam in the attic space directly over the existing
> > wall. Bolt all your ceiling joist to the new beam as in the photo.
> > Tear down existing wall - nothing moves.
>
> get pro help the roof rafters MIGHT not be strong enough to take
> that added load..........

The roof rafters don't come into it--although in the photo they appear
to be right above the new beam, there is no connection between the
rafters and the new beam.

Cheers, Wayne

hallerb@aol . com wrote:
> On Apr 24, 12:35?pm, "Dave in Houston" <DeeJayEmCee...@att . net > wrote:
>
>>you must support wall on both sides before removing.. temporary walls.
>>
>>? ? You don't. ?Here's the way we do it: * w w w .pbase . com /speedracer/image/2622653
>>
>>Set your beam in the attic space directly over the existing wall. ?Bolt all
>>your ceiling joist to the new beam as in the photo.
>>Tear down existing wall - nothing moves.
>>
>>Dave in Houston
>
>
> get pro help the roof rafters MIGHT not be strong enough to take tha
> added load..........

Not to mention that there is an entire floor between the wall he
wants to take out and the attic.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

On Apr 24, 9:35 am, "Dave in Houston" <DeeJayEmCee...@att . net > wrote:
> you must support wall on both sides before removing.. temporary walls.
>
>     You don't.  Here's the way we do it: * w w w .pbase . com /speedra=
cer/image/2622653
>
> Set your beam in the attic space directly over the existing wall.  Bolt =
all
> your ceiling joist to the new beam as in the photo.
> Tear down existing wall - nothing moves.
>
> Dave in Houston

Dave-

That is a pretty cool design concept to replace a wall with a beam.

But the joists will move downward until the beam deflects enough to
take the load that the wall was supporting.....depending on the beam
sizing & the ceiling load (actually in this case, the 2nd story floor
& ?). The deflection at mid span could be in the 3/8 to 1/2" range.

Plus in the OP's I'm pretty sure that your concept would place the
beam on the floor of the 2nd story.

But still a neat concept.

cheers
Bob

On 2008-04-25, BobK207 <rkazanjy@gmail . com > wrote:

> But the joists will move downward until the beam deflects enough to
> take the load that the wall was supporting.....depending on the beam
> sizing & the ceiling load (actually in this case, the 2nd story
> floor & ?). The deflection at mid span could be in the 3/8 to 1/2"
> range.

This could be addressed by using a pre-cambered beam, like a glulam.

Cheers, Wayne

On Apr 24, 8:12 pm, Wayne Whitney <whit...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
> On 2008-04-25, BobK207 <rkaza...@gmail . com > wrote:
>
> > But the joists will move downward until the beam deflects enough to
> > take the load that the wall was supporting.....depending on the beam
> > sizing & the ceiling load (actually in this case, the 2nd story
> > floor & ?).  The deflection at mid span could be in the 3/8 to 1/2"
> > range.
>
> This could be addressed by using a pre-cambered beam, like a glulam.
>
> Cheers, Wayne

Wayne-

Yes, the beam, if cambered properly, would deflect to a straight
condition.

But the ceiling / 2nd story floor would have to be jacked along with
the beam for the entire system to have no deflection....you would need
to enforce displacement compatibility (& a raised starting point) to
prevent a sag when the walls were removed.

It's kinda like getting a sistered joist to really share the load.

cheers
Bob

On 2008-04-25, Bobk207 <rkazanjy@gmail . com > wrote:

> On Apr 24, 8:12 pm, Wayne Whitney <whit...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
> > This could be addressed by using a pre-cambered beam, like a glulam.
>
> But the ceiling / 2nd story floor would have to be jacked along with
> the beam for the entire system to have no deflection....you would
> need to enforce displacement compatibility (& a raised starting
> point) to prevent a sag when the walls were removed.

Good point. I guess if the joists are unloaded at the time of
installing the precambered beam, it wouldn't be too hard. You could
just clamp/jack each joist to the pre-cambered beam one at a time
before fastening them.

But if the joists are attached to each other transversely at the time
of beam installation, then you have to jack the whole system, and in
the shape of the pre-camber. That could be trouble, but doable.

Cheers, Wayne

"BobK207" <rkazanjy@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:690fc0eb-2cf6-4ea5-8775-f4c5521a0c8c@k10g2000prm.googlegroups . com ...

Dave-

That is a pretty cool design concept to replace a wall with a beam.

But the joists will move downward until the beam deflects enough to
take the load that the wall was supporting.....depending on the beam
sizing & the ceiling load (actually in this case, the 2nd story floor
& ?). The deflection at mid span could be in the 3/8 to 1/2" range.

Plus in the OP's I'm pretty sure that your concept would place the
beam on the floor of the 2nd story.

But still a neat concept.


Truth to tell, I missed the fact that the OP was dealing with another
story vs. an open attic or I probably never would have posted this as a
solution.
As far as your concerns about deflection, we measured absolutely zero in
this particular application. I do recognize the necessity of sizing the
beam to carry the load. But, in this case the load is 2X6 ceiling joists
and half-inch painted drywall and the beam consists of 3/4 inch CDX plywood
sandwiched between SYP 2X12s though I recall there being either two 10 foot
2X12s on either side of three pieces of plywood or an eight and a ten on one
side and a ten and an eight on the other. I don't recall the length of the
span except that it was around 18 or 20 feet. We must have put a couple of
hundred 3 1/4 inch nails in it in addition to the thru-bolts in each angle
iron brackets. We probably even considered a 1/4 inch steel flitch plate in
lieu of the 3/4 plywood. Assembling the beam in the attic space was hard
enough w/o having to contend with a couple of pieces of 1/4 inch by 11 X
eight or ten foot steel plate.

Dave in Houston

<hallerb@aol . com > wrote in message
news:28fc8532-7f0c-4356-814d-263a19cde41d@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups . com ...
> On Apr 24, 10:06?am, "Bill" <billnomailnosp...@yahoo . com > wrote:
...
>
> get this evaluated by a structural engineer before proceeding. they
> can give you specifics

That is the most important part.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

You can upgrade the beam, and install it in the cieling......That is joist
hang the ceiling joists to the beam and install it in the cieling.....Yes
you need to support the cieling with temporary.
Also where the beam is supported on either side, you need to make sure you
have solid post and underfloor support i.e. blocking and pier support
directly under posts.....
What size are the cieling joists......
With that span of 13 ft. and your live load upper part, you should be able
to calc out a beam and or oversize it. What about a 6x10? Laminate beams
are stronger but not decorative.
with I beams usually wood is attached that the joists are attached to.
I have done many types of wall / ceiling supports with and without
engineering.
4x4 4 feet
4x6 6 feet
4x8 8 ft....
4x10 10 ft
a 4x12 will span 12 ft.......
When using 6x......they will increase the span....
jloomis
"Bill" <billnomailnospamx@yahoo . com > wrote in message
news:67biegF2nfqp3U1@mid.individual . net ...
> Before I go and hire an architect, get building permit, etc. I would like
> to get a ballpark on what this might look like...
>
> I have a bearing wall (2x4 studs) which is 13 ft. long in my living room
> which I am thinking of tearing out and replacing with a beam. (2 story
> house - living room first floor.)
>
> But looking at "span tables", this is looking like it would need a solid
> wood beam like 4 x 10? Well a 10" beam would come down a bit far and not
> look so good...
>
> So how about a steel I-beam? I looked at span tables for I-beams and it
> looks like a "W6x9" would do the trick? This would come down less and look
> better.
>
> Anyway I don't know a thing about steel I-beams. Does "W6x9" mean 6 inches
> wide and 9 inches high?
>
> Is there a smaller I-beam which would work for this span?
>
> And I have 2x4 walls that this I-beam would connect to on each side. Would
> the I-beam just rest on say 4 x 6 wood posts? Or have holes drilled in the
> bottom of the I-beam and lag screw it to the wood posts?
>
> And how would I fasten the joists resting on the top of the I-beam to the
> I -beam?
>
>

Bill wrote:
> Before I go and hire an architect, get building permit, etc. I would like to
> get a ballpark on what this might look like...
>
> I have a bearing wall (2x4 studs) which is 13 ft. long in my living room
> which I am thinking of tearing out and replacing with a beam. (2 story
> house - living room first floor.)
>
> But looking at "span tables", this is looking like it would need a solid
> wood beam like 4 x 10? Well a 10" beam would come down a bit far and not
> look so good...
>
> So how about a steel I-beam? I looked at span tables for I-beams and it
> looks like a "W6x9" would do the trick? This would come down less and look
> better.
>
> Anyway I don't know a thing about steel I-beams. Does "W6x9" mean 6 inches
> wide and 9 inches high?

No, W6x9 means that it is 6 lbs per foot and nine inches tall.

> Is there a smaller I-beam which would work for this span?

An engineered wood beam multiplied may do it, but you would have
to check with the span tables for them.

> And I have 2x4 walls that this I-beam would connect to on each side. Would
> the I-beam just rest on say 4 x 6 wood posts? Or have holes drilled in the
> bottom of the I-beam and lag screw it to the wood posts?

Typically, a metal beam on a wood post would have clips welded
onto it to fasten to the support posts. There are various ways
of attachment.

> And how would I fasten the joists resting on the top of the I-beam to the
> I -beam?

This would again entail clips either welded or bolted to the beam
and fastened to the joists.

As other posters have pointed out, you must make sure to transfer
the load to your foundation appropriately. It does not sound
like you have the experience to judge all the possible
configurations for doing this properly. An engineer can well
make this project doable and keep within a budget for doing so.

When I do things like this on my own, I always overengineer,
because I cannot properly do the calculations, so I overbuild to
compensate. The engineer can save you money by specifying
enough, without overdoing it. The cost of the engineer can often
be saved by the savings from less material and less work. YMMV.

As far as what it will cost, if you do the legwork (make accurate
drawings, take a lot of photos of both the foundation under the
support posts and the floor above and the situation itself) then
the engineer can design a system for you without having to do all
of that himself. Design costs; probably 300 to 500 bucks if it
is simple. Build costs; depends, but if it is simple and the
foundation can support everything as it is, then 1,000 bucks or so.

Well worth the piece of mind to hire the engineer. He sees
things that you can't.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX