Group: alt.smokers.cigars

From stogies to cubans.

Add group to favorites Add group to favorites
   indietro Back to post list     indietro Send new message to group
Search:
Pg.
5

Post Subject:

tax question for accountants

Reply from: Bart Goddard
Date: 01 May 2008, 22:57
Re: tax question for accountants

Mickey <Mickey@NOSPAMFatHounds . com > wrote in
news:t9ak14dhq4hc11nhpg161jsb752tsprrn1@4ax . com :


> Does it bother you that the accepted answer for 0^^0 (zero raised to
> the zeroth power) " ... is based on convenience, not on correctness."?

I'm not really bothered, since I don't do combinatorics. And
the combinatorics people are using the "convenient" definition
to shorten formulae. As long as we understand the context,
it's not a problem. It is, of course, more fun to analyze
the value in a particular setting, than to just leave 0^0 as
a special case.

We shouldn't be misled by the statement you quote. There _is
no_ correct value for 0^0, so convenience is the only path.

B.(See? I enjoyed that.)

--
Cheerfully resisting change since 1959.

Reply from: Mickey
Date: 01 May 2008, 23:35
Re: tax question for accountants

Bart Goddard <goddardbe@netscape . net > wrote:

>Mickey <Mickey@NOSPAMFatHounds . com > wrote in
>news:t9ak14dhq4hc11nhpg161jsb752tsprrn1@4ax . com :
>
>
>> Does it bother you that the accepted answer for 0^^0 (zero raised to
>> the zeroth power) " ... is based on convenience, not on correctness."?
>
>I'm not really bothered, since I don't do combinatorics. And
>the combinatorics people are using the "convenient" definition
>to shorten formulae. As long as we understand the context,
>it's not a problem. It is, of course, more fun to analyze
>the value in a particular setting, than to just leave 0^0 as
>a special case.
>
>We shouldn't be misled by the statement you quote. There _is
>no_ correct value for 0^0, so convenience is the only path.
>
>B.(See? I enjoyed that.)

IM(non mathematician)O, I would say it should be the special case of
(null). Any number zero times would be null.



Reply from: Bart Goddard
Date: 02 May 2008, 00:00
Re: tax question for accountants

Mickey <Mickey@NOSPAMFatHounds . com > wrote in
news:9kdk14dk4aqgst2bb052n4u4jdvn8m5550@4ax . com :


> IM(non mathematician)O, I would say it should be the special case of
> (null). Any number zero times would be null.

That won't square with the formulae we have for exponents.

5^7 / 5^4 = 5^(7-4) = 5^3. We want 5^7 / 5^7 to be = 1.
So by the usual formula, 5^7/5^7 = 5^(7-7) = 5^0. So I'm
sorely tempted to define 5^0 = 1.

Also, I'd like the graph of y=2^x to be continuous. It will
be, if I define 2^0 = 1.

The general philosophy is that an empty sum = 0, while an
empty product = 1. This makes sense because an empty sum
means "I didn't add anything." So if A represents an empty
sum, then 5+A ought to = 5, since "I didn't add anything".
This makes us think A = 0. Likewise, if B represents an
empty product, then 5*B should = 5, since I didn't multiply
by anything. So I need B = 1.

Since 5^0 means "I didn't multiply by 5", I need it to =1.

Similar reasoning is why 0! = 1.

B.

--
Cheerfully resisting change since 1959.

Reply from: Mickey
Date: 02 May 2008, 00:20
Re: tax question for accountants

Bart Goddard <goddardbe@netscape . net > wrote:

>Mickey <Mickey@NOSPAMFatHounds . com > wrote in
>news:9kdk14dk4aqgst2bb052n4u4jdvn8m5550@4ax . com :
>
>
>> IM(non mathematician)O, I would say it should be the special case of
>> (null). Any number zero times would be null.
>
>That won't square with the formulae we have for exponents.
>
>5^7 / 5^4 = 5^(7-4) = 5^3. We want 5^7 / 5^7 to be = 1.
>So by the usual formula, 5^7/5^7 = 5^(7-7) = 5^0. So I'm
>sorely tempted to define 5^0 = 1.
>
>Also, I'd like the graph of y=2^x to be continuous. It will
>be, if I define 2^0 = 1.
>
>The general philosophy is that an empty sum = 0, while an
>empty product = 1. This makes sense because an empty sum
>means "I didn't add anything." So if A represents an empty
>sum, then 5+A ought to = 5, since "I didn't add anything".
>This makes us think A = 0. Likewise, if B represents an
>empty product, then 5*B should = 5, since I didn't multiply
>by anything. So I need B = 1.
>
>Since 5^0 means "I didn't multiply by 5", I need it to =1.
>
>Similar reasoning is why 0! = 1.
>
>B.

I can see your reasoning, and I don't argue with it. But as a
programmer, (null) and (0) are 2 different things. I went through all
kinds of bloody hell trying to get my "manager" to grasp this concept,
so it kind of rings my bell.

Reply from: Big Al
Date: 02 May 2008, 00:43
Re: tax question for accountants


"Mickey" <Mickey@NOSPAMFatHounds . com > wrote in message
news:gegk14505tg34jne4746hjllos6ov5gc8q@4ax . com ...
> Bart Goddard <goddardbe@netscape . net > wrote:
>
>>Mickey <Mickey@NOSPAMFatHounds . com > wrote in
>>news:9kdk14dk4aqgst2bb052n4u4jdvn8m5550@4ax . com :
>>
>>
>>> IM(non mathematician)O, I would say it should be the special case of
>>> (null). Any number zero times would be null.
>>
>>That won't square with the formulae we have for exponents.
>>
>>5^7 / 5^4 = 5^(7-4) = 5^3. We want 5^7 / 5^7 to be = 1.
>>So by the usual formula, 5^7/5^7 = 5^(7-7) = 5^0. So I'm
>>sorely tempted to define 5^0 = 1.
>>
>>Also, I'd like the graph of y=2^x to be continuous. It will
>>be, if I define 2^0 = 1.
>>
>>The general philosophy is that an empty sum = 0, while an
>>empty product = 1. This makes sense because an empty sum
>>means "I didn't add anything." So if A represents an empty
>>sum, then 5+A ought to = 5, since "I didn't add anything".
>>This makes us think A = 0. Likewise, if B represents an
>>empty product, then 5*B should = 5, since I didn't multiply
>>by anything. So I need B = 1.
>>
>>Since 5^0 means "I didn't multiply by 5", I need it to =1.
>>
>>Similar reasoning is why 0! = 1.
>>
>>B.
>
> I can see your reasoning, and I don't argue with it. But as a
> programmer, (null) and (0) are 2 different things. I went through all
> kinds of bloody hell trying to get my "manager" to grasp this concept,
> so it kind of rings my bell.

Testing, Check 1 2



Reply from: Paul M. Cook
Date: 02 May 2008, 02:13
Re: tax question for accountants


"Mickey" <Mickey@NOSPAMFatHounds . com > wrote in message
news:gegk14505tg34jne4746hjllos6ov5gc8q@4ax . com ...
> Bart Goddard <goddardbe@netscape . net > wrote:
>
>>Mickey <Mickey@NOSPAMFatHounds . com > wrote in
>>news:9kdk14dk4aqgst2bb052n4u4jdvn8m5550@4ax . com :
>>
>>
>>> IM(non mathematician)O, I would say it should be the special case of
>>> (null). Any number zero times would be null.
>>
>>That won't square with the formulae we have for exponents.
>>
>>5^7 / 5^4 = 5^(7-4) = 5^3. We want 5^7 / 5^7 to be = 1.
>>So by the usual formula, 5^7/5^7 = 5^(7-7) = 5^0. So I'm
>>sorely tempted to define 5^0 = 1.
>>
>>Also, I'd like the graph of y=2^x to be continuous. It will
>>be, if I define 2^0 = 1.
>>
>>The general philosophy is that an empty sum = 0, while an
>>empty product = 1. This makes sense because an empty sum
>>means "I didn't add anything." So if A represents an empty
>>sum, then 5+A ought to = 5, since "I didn't add anything".
>>This makes us think A = 0. Likewise, if B represents an
>>empty product, then 5*B should = 5, since I didn't multiply
>>by anything. So I need B = 1.
>>
>>Since 5^0 means "I didn't multiply by 5", I need it to =1.
>>
>>Similar reasoning is why 0! = 1.
>>
>>B.
>
> I can see your reasoning, and I don't argue with it. But as a
> programmer, (null) and (0) are 2 different things. I went through all
> kinds of bloody hell trying to get my "manager" to grasp this concept,
> so it kind of rings my bell.

Nulls and 0's are different because the machine needs to treat them
differently. A null is a nothing, a 0 is a value. Which is why computer
start counting from 0.

Paul



Reply from: Bart Goddard
Date: 02 May 2008, 20:35
Re: tax question for accountants

Mickey <Mickey@NOSPAMFatHounds . com > wrote in
news:gegk14505tg34jne4746hjllos6ov5gc8q@4ax . com :


> I can see your reasoning, and I don't argue with it. But as a
> programmer, (null) and (0) are 2 different things. I went through all
> kinds of bloody hell trying to get my "manager" to grasp this concept,
> so it kind of rings my bell.


I think even in programming you might want to be careful. One
day you might want null and another day 1 and another day
use continuity considerations.

If you represent a polynomial or power series in the computer
equivalent of sigma notation, you have something like

\sum_{n=0}^{\infty} a_n x^n.

Then the constant term is a_0 x^0, and you'd sure want to be
able to plug in 0 for x. If 0^0 evaluates to null here, then
your loop might blow up when your evaluating the sum.

B.

--
Cheerfully resisting change since 1959.

Reply from: Mickey
Date: 02 May 2008, 21:12
Re: tax question for accountants

Bart Goddard <goddardbe@netscape . net > wrote:

>Mickey <Mickey@NOSPAMFatHounds . com > wrote in
>news:gegk14505tg34jne4746hjllos6ov5gc8q@4ax . com :
>
>
>> I can see your reasoning, and I don't argue with it. But as a
>> programmer, (null) and (0) are 2 different things. I went through all
>> kinds of bloody hell trying to get my "manager" to grasp this concept,
>> so it kind of rings my bell.
>
>
>I think even in programming you might want to be careful. One
>day you might want null and another day 1 and another day
>use continuity considerations.
>
>If you represent a polynomial or power series in the computer
>equivalent of sigma notation, you have something like
>
>\sum_{n=0}^{\infty} a_n x^n.
>
>Then the constant term is a_0 x^0, and you'd sure want to be
>able to plug in 0 for x. If 0^0 evaluates to null here, then
>your loop might blow up when your evaluating the sum.
>
>B.

Under some circumstances, you'd be correct. In this particular case,
we were talking about test results for dialysis patients. NULL meant
no test result, because "0" could have been a valid result.

Reply from: Miss Elaine Eos
Date: 02 May 2008, 03:05
Re: tax question for accountants

In article <Xns9A91ACF6D1C85goddardbenetscapenet@64.209.0.91>,
Bart Goddard <goddardbe@netscape . net > wrote:

> The general philosophy is that an empty sum = 0, while an
> empty product = 1. This makes sense because an empty sum
> means "I didn't add anything." So if A represents an empty
> sum, then 5+A ought to = 5, since "I didn't add anything".
> This makes us think A = 0. Likewise, if B represents an
> empty product, then 5*B should = 5, since I didn't multiply
> by anything. So I need B = 1.
>
> Since 5^0 means "I didn't multiply by 5", I need it to =1.

Another way to think of it is that 0 is the "identity number" for
addition, while 1 is the "identity number" for multiplication & powers.

X + 0 = X
X * 1 = X
X ^ 1 = X

--
Please take off your pants or I won't read your e-mail.
I will not, no matter how "good" the deal, patronise any business which sends
unsolicited commercial e-mail or that advertises in discussion newsgroups.

Reply from: Miss Elaine Eos
Date: 02 May 2008, 03:02
Re: tax question for accountants

In article <Xns9A91A26087130goddardbenetscapenet@64.209.0.93>,
Bart Goddard <goddardbe@netscape . net > wrote:

> Mickey <Mickey@NOSPAMFatHounds . com > wrote in
> news:t9ak14dhq4hc11nhpg161jsb752tsprrn1@4ax . com :
>
>
> > Does it bother you that the accepted answer for 0^^0 (zero raised to
> > the zeroth power) " ... is based on convenience, not on correctness."?
>
> I'm not really bothered, since I don't do combinatorics. And
> the combinatorics people are using the "convenient" definition
> to shorten formulae. As long as we understand the context,
> it's not a problem. It is, of course, more fun to analyze
> the value in a particular setting, than to just leave 0^0 as
> a special case.
>
> We shouldn't be misled by the statement you quote. There _is
> no_ correct value for 0^0, so convenience is the only path.
>
> B.(See? I enjoyed that.)

Isn't "undefined" (or, in computer jargon, "NaN") an alternate path?
This works for X/0...

--
Please take off your pants or I won't read your e-mail.
I will not, no matter how "good" the deal, patronise any business which sends
unsolicited commercial e-mail or that advertises in discussion newsgroups.

Reply from: Bart Goddard
Date: 02 May 2008, 20:37
Re: tax question for accountants

Miss Elaine Eos <Misc@your-pants.PlayNaked . com > wrote in news:Misc-
EEA274.18025501052008@news.sf.sbcglobal . net :


>> We shouldn't be misled by the statement you quote. There _is
>> no_ correct value for 0^0, so convenience is the only path.
>>
>> B.(See? I enjoyed that.)
>
> Isn't "undefined" (or, in computer jargon, "NaN") an alternate path?
> This works for X/0...

Short answer is that "undefined" might be convenient is some situations.
The longer answer makes the distinction between "undefined" and
"indeterminant".

B.

--
Cheerfully resisting change since 1959.

Reply from: Marc Schneiderman
Date: 02 May 2008, 13:18
Re: tax question for accountants

On 1 May 2008 20:57:41 GMT, Bart Goddard <goddardbe@netscape . net >
wrote:

>We shouldn't be misled by the statement you quote. There _is
>no_ correct value for 0^0, so convenience is the only path.
>
>B.(See? I enjoyed that.)

huh? :-)
CigarBaron
(2 + 2 = ?)

Reply from: jeremy
Date: 02 May 2008, 23:56
Re: tax question for accountants

Marc Schneiderman wrote:

> huh? :-)
> CigarBaron
> (2 + 2 = ?)

Four for dinner, Morton's?

JJ

Reply from: Marc Schneiderman
Date: 03 May 2008, 14:00
Re: tax question for accountants

On Fri, 02 May 2008 16:56:32 -0500, jeremy <jeremy@j-ellendesigns . com >
wrote:

>Marc Schneiderman wrote:
>
>> huh? :-)
>> CigarBaron
>> (2 + 2 = ?)
>
>Four for dinner, Morton's?
>
>JJ


Was there on Wed. but I'll go again anytime.
CigarBaron

Reply from: btorvik2
Date: 05 May 2008, 18:01
Re: tax question for accountants

Marc Schneiderman wrote:
> On Fri, 02 May 2008 16:56:32 -0500, jeremy <jeremy@j-ellendesigns . com >
> wrote:
>
>> Marc Schneiderman wrote:
>>
>>> huh? :-)
>>> CigarBaron
>>> (2 + 2 = ?)
>>
>> Four for dinner, Morton's?
>>
>> JJ
>
>
> Was there on Wed. but I'll go again anytime.
> CigarBaron

can you still smoke at Morton's in Pit. or have they gotten on board with
most of the rest of the country...?

bernie..short memory



--
"Official ASC Shaman"




Pg.
5



Login:
  Username:    Password: 
 
   Lost Password? click here!
Thread:
  MikeZ
    Tom S.
      Tom S.
       Marc Schneiderman
      Tom S.
       Miss Elaine Eos
        Tom S.
         Miss Elaine Eos
          Tom S.
         btorvik2
      Miss Elaine Eos
       Tom S.
        Miss Elaine Eos
         Tom S.
         Marc Schneiderman
          btorvik2
        btorvik2
       Marc Schneiderman
        Mickey
        Alex W.
         KompuderGuy
         Marc Schneiderman
      Mickey
       Tom S.
      Tom S.
       Miss Elaine Eos
        Tom S.
         Miss Elaine Eos
         btorvik2
    btorvik2
     mary
      Marc Schneiderman
       Tom S.
        Marc Schneiderman
         Mickey
          Tom S.
      btorvik2
       Marc Schneiderman
    MikeZ
  Mickey
   Tom S.
  Tom S.
   MikeZ
    Bart Goddard
     Mickey
      Bart Goddard
       Mickey
        Bart Goddard
         Mickey
          Big Al
          Paul M. Cook
          Bart Goddard
           Mickey
         Miss Elaine Eos
       Miss Elaine Eos
        Bart Goddard
       Marc Schneiderman
        jeremy
         Marc Schneiderman
          btorvik2
           Marc Schneiderman
            btorvik2
      Tom S.
       Mickey
        Tom S.
         Mickey
       Alex W.
       Paul M. Cook
       Miss Elaine Eos
       btorvik2
      btorvik2
     Skyhawk XP
      Bart Goddard
       Skyhawk XP
        Bart Goddard
         Marc Schneiderman
        Tom S.
         Marc Schneiderman
       Marc Schneiderman
        Bart Goddard
         Marc Schneiderman
          MikeZ
  MLF
   btorvik2