OT: PA questions for a working band (long post)

OT: PA questions for a working band (long post)

Well we finally got in all of our new stuff and are finally ready to put it
all together and I had a few questions for any of the seasoned (or not)
giggers out there. None of us in the band have much experience setting this
shit up because either we've been in bands that had a sound man or were not
the ones to configure it all. We are playing mostly small venues 25-50
people with a few medium sized venues 50-100+ lined up but nothing bigger
than that (at least for 2008). We are not looking to take over the world or
take down the rafters wherever we play..

BTW, I understand about RTFM! Just looking for some "real world" advice
here.

The "mains" amp (EP2500) is capable of either 650W per side @4ohms in stereo
and if I read it right, 2400W @ 2ohms in bridged mono. Our mains are (2)
2x15" cabs @ 4 ohms each with 900W peak handling each. My idea is to use the
full 2400W for the mains and use the 500W (2x250W) for the monitors AND for
music during breaks pumped through the monitors. Now, if we run the drivers
in parallel mode, that gives us the 2ohm load we need correct? Also any
feedback (pun intended) on doing it this way is welcomed. I think most would
just go with the 650W stereo configuration and pump the in-between music
through the mains? At this point we have decided not to go with a Sub woofer
because of the size of venues we will be playing. Bad idea? If so, why?

EQ: We have a dual channel EQ that we will be hooking up to it. Is there an
industry standard place it should go (plug into)?

Dual channel Compressor: We figure the compressor should go to the lead
singer and to the bass drum. Ideas besides this?

DSP: May not even use it but if we did, I'm pretty sure it would go into the
FX loop.

If you want specifics on the equipment we are using I will post that too but
I was hoping there were some industry standard advice to use.


Thanks in advance for any and all advice, ideas, and feedback.

Re: PA questions for a working band (long post)

Zero,

I follow the idea of using both PA cabs hooked up in parallel with the
amp bridged in mono. That should give you 2400W. But the cabs are only rated
for 900W each so I'd be careful about setting the volume or you'll blow the
speakers. I'm not sure I follow why you want to go mono rather than stereo
with the mains.
I'm lost on your plan to use the monitors for music during your breaks.
Aren't the monitors aimed at the band? Why don't you send the music through
the mains?


Dave M..

Re: PA questions for a working band (long post)

If you're not intending to take over the world then you should take up model
trains as a hobby. You'll never be worth a damn at entertaining people with
your music.

"David L. Martel" <marte005@earthlink . net > wrote in message
news:D_idnesmiKIYebjVnZ2dnUVZ_qninZ2d@earthlink . com ...
> Zero,
>
> I follow the idea of using both PA cabs hooked up in parallel with the
> amp bridged in mono. That should give you 2400W. But the cabs are only
> rated for 900W each so I'd be careful about setting the volume or you'll
> blow the speakers. I'm not sure I follow why you want to go mono rather
> than stereo with the mains.
> I'm lost on your plan to use the monitors for music during your breaks.
> Aren't the monitors aimed at the band? Why don't you send the music
> through the mains?
>
>
> Dave M..
>

Re: PA questions for a working band (long post)


"Keith Adams" <keithadams@socal.rr . com > wrote in message
news:48261445$0$31763$4c368faf@roadrunner . com ...
> If you're not intending to take over the world then you should take up
> model trains as a hobby. You'll never be worth a damn at entertaining
> people with your music.


Well you missed that one by about 20 years. I've been "worth a damn" now for
about that and have made some good coin in the process.

Re: PA questions for a working band (long post)

Well Monster Zero. 20 years aint a long time. Actually its just starting to
be truly experienced. The thing about it is. Whether you got better depends
on if it were good experience or bad?Sometimes people arent as good as they
were 20 years before. I'm not saying that applies to you. I dont know you
and would be a bigger fool than I normaly am if I were to imply such a
thing. After 20 years experience . I know that you can set levels for a live
sound check and that you're just sending feelers out. I knew how to set
levels before I had ever stepped onto a stage in front of an audience. That
came from listening to what experienced musicians had to say while standing
out of the way and keeping my mouth shut. Being able to play a guitar well
doesnt make you any good. It helps but you can be great while possessing
limited mechanical skills. I hope like hell I'm wrong but I'd imagine that
you're stuck in the same box and sound the same as 90% of the people who
claim to be good.


"Monster Zero" <someone@somewhere . com > wrote in message
news:8OoVj.2688$xr1.676@trndny04...
>
> "Keith Adams" <keithadams@socal.rr . com > wrote in message
> news:48261445$0$31763$4c368faf@roadrunner . com ...
>> If you're not intending to take over the world then you should take up
>> model trains as a hobby. You'll never be worth a damn at entertaining
>> people with your music.
>
>
> Well you missed that one by about 20 years. I've been "worth a damn" now
> for about that and have made some good coin in the process.
>

Re: PA questions for a working band (long post)


"Keith Adams" <keithadams@socal.rr . com > wrote in message
news:4826342b$0$31725$4c368faf@roadrunner . com ...
> Well Monster Zero. 20 years aint a long time. Actually its just starting
> to be truly experienced. The thing about it is. Whether you got better
> depends on if it were good experience or bad?Sometimes people arent as
> good as they were 20 years before. I'm not saying that applies to you. I
> dont know you and would be a bigger fool than I normaly am if I were to
> imply such a thing. After 20 years experience . I know that you can set
> levels for a live sound check and that you're just sending feelers out. I
> knew how to set levels before I had ever stepped onto a stage in front of
> an audience. That came from listening to what experienced musicians had to
> say while standing out of the way and keeping my mouth shut. Being able to
> play a guitar well doesnt make you any good. It helps but you can be great
> while possessing limited mechanical skills. I hope like hell I'm wrong but
> I'd imagine that you're stuck in the same box and sound the same as 90% of
> the people who claim to be good.
>
>
> "Monster Zero" <someone@somewhere . com > wrote in message
> news:8OoVj.2688$xr1.676@trndny04...
>>
>> "Keith Adams" <keithadams@socal.rr . com > wrote in message
>> news:48261445$0$31763$4c368faf@roadrunner . com ...
>>> If you're not intending to take over the world then you should take up
>>> model trains as a hobby. You'll never be worth a damn at entertaining
>>> people with your music.
>>
>>
>> Well you missed that one by about 20 years. I've been "worth a damn" now
>> for about that and have made some good coin in the process.
>>
>
>

Actually I would never claim to be a virtuoso because I'm a hack as far as
technical ability goes. I just play for the song and not the glory or any of
that shit. I'll sit in a corner with a tambourine all night if it involves
playing loud music in front of people or with other people. I've done
everything from bluegrass to speed metal and I love it all, so long as it's
loud, and the rhythm is there it doesn't matter to me. As far as PA systems
go though I am a complete retard because I've never had to deal with
anything other than some of the all in one PA heads I've had.

Re: PA questions for a working band (long post)

"Keith Adams" <keithadams@socal.rr . com > wrote:

>If you're not intending to take over the world then you
>should take up model trains as a hobby. You'll never
>be worth a damn at entertaining people with your music.

Post any clips yet, Keith?

The Repair Guy
repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

Re: PA questions for a working band (long post)

The Repair Guy wrote:
> "Keith Adams" <keithadams@socal.rr . com > wrote:
>
>> If you're not intending to take over the world then you
>> should take up model trains as a hobby. You'll never
>> be worth a damn at entertaining people with your music.
>
> Post any clips yet, Keith?
>
> The Repair Guy
> repairguy1993 dot netfirms dot com

He *is* a clip. A rusty paper clip.

Re: PA questions for a working band (long post)

Keith,


You'll never be worth a damn at entertaining people with
> your music.

And when have you heard my music?

Dave M.

Re: OT: PA questions for a working band (long post)

Ask 'em over at alt.audio.pro.live-sound. They're a pretty helpful
bunch once you weed out the loonies.

Tejas Pedro


On Sat, 10 May 2008 14:22:43 GMT, "Monster Zero"
<someone@somewhere . com > wrote:

>Well we finally got in all of our new stuff and are finally ready to put it
>all together and I had a few questions for any of the seasoned (or not)
>giggers out there. None of us in the band have much experience setting this
>shit up because either we've been in bands that had a sound man or were not
>the ones to configure it all. We are playing mostly small venues 25-50
>people with a few medium sized venues 50-100+ lined up but nothing bigger
>than that (at least for 2008). We are not looking to take over the world or
>take down the rafters wherever we play..
>
>BTW, I understand about RTFM! Just looking for some "real world" advice
>here.
>
>The "mains" amp (EP2500) is capable of either 650W per side @4ohms in stereo
>and if I read it right, 2400W @ 2ohms in bridged mono. Our mains are (2)
>2x15" cabs @ 4 ohms each with 900W peak handling each. My idea is to use the
>full 2400W for the mains and use the 500W (2x250W) for the monitors AND for
>music during breaks pumped through the monitors. Now, if we run the drivers
>in parallel mode, that gives us the 2ohm load we need correct? Also any
>feedback (pun intended) on doing it this way is welcomed. I think most would
>just go with the 650W stereo configuration and pump the in-between music
>through the mains? At this point we have decided not to go with a Sub woofer
>because of the size of venues we will be playing. Bad idea? If so, why?
>
>EQ: We have a dual channel EQ that we will be hooking up to it. Is there an
>industry standard place it should go (plug into)?
>
>Dual channel Compressor: We figure the compressor should go to the lead
>singer and to the bass drum. Ideas besides this?
>
>DSP: May not even use it but if we did, I'm pretty sure it would go into the
>FX loop.
>
>If you want specifics on the equipment we are using I will post that too but
>I was hoping there were some industry standard advice to use.
>
>
>Thanks in advance for any and all advice, ideas, and feedback.
>
>

Re: OT: PA questions for a working band (long post)

Lengthy reply, but ....

Monster Zero wrote:
> Well we finally got in all of our new stuff and are finally ready to put it
> all together and I had a few questions for any of the seasoned (or not)
> giggers out there. None of us in the band have much experience setting this
> shit up because either we've been in bands that had a sound man or were not
> the ones to configure it all.


Might be worth hiring a local sound guy to help you nail down
the configuration. *Write it all down*.

I gotta say - I try very hard to get the configuration figured out
before any purchasing. You'll have to do it anyway, might as well do it
when it prevents miscues in purchasing.

> We are playing mostly small venues 25-50
> people with a few medium sized venues 50-100+ lined up but nothing bigger
> than that (at least for 2008). We are not looking to take over the world or
> take down the rafters wherever we play..
>
> BTW, I understand about RTFM! Just looking for some "real world" advice
> here.
>
> The "mains" amp (EP2500) is capable of either 650W per side @4ohms in stereo
> and if I read it right, 2400W @ 2ohms in bridged mono.

2400W @ 4ohms in bridged mono, not 2 ohms.

* img3.musiciansfriend . com /dbase/pdf/man/m 480697.pdf

Page 11


> Our mains are (2)
> 2x15" cabs @ 4 ohms each with 900W peak handling each.

The means they are probably 400W RMS each. Peak handling is not a valid
metric for speakers. JBL EONs advertise at 900W peak, but are
really 225 watt cabs. So it could be worse than that.

> My idea is to use the
> full 2400W for the mains and use the 500W (2x250W) for the monitors AND for
> music during breaks pumped through the monitors.

I see no reference to the 500W anywhere in the post. You would need a
seperate amp for monitors. You might be able to run mains off half the
EP2500 ( which will drive 2 ohms @ 1200W ) and monitors off the other half.

For your speakers, that's plenty - 1200W per side is. 1200 for both
mains cabs is also very likely enough.

> Now, if we run the drivers
> in parallel mode, that gives us the 2ohm load we need correct?

I do not believe the EP2500 will drive a 2 ohm load
in bridged mono. You can run two-channel mono ( or even stereo )
for 1200W per side into 2 4 ohm cabinets.

> Also any
> feedback (pun intended) on doing it this way is welcomed. I think most would
> just go with the 650W stereo configuration and pump the in-between music
> through the mains? At this point we have decided not to go with a Sub woofer
> because of the size of venues we will be playing. Bad idea? If so, why?
>

Not a bad idea at all, unless you need subs. You say below that you want
kik in the mains - that greatly increases the likelihood you'll need
subs. You have a good-sized PA, might be capable of it. You need to
pay close attention to what the kik is doing to you, though.

The old rule of thumb is that the bass player needs 10 times the wattage
of the guitar player*. Well, kik is an octave or more down from bass....
but there are ways to compromise the kik into something that'll fit on
400W speakers.

*might be as little as 3 times - an Ampeg SVT will hang with a 100watt
Marshall.... t00b watts, yadda yadda.

Again, experienced help on the ground - to train you, essentially -
will probably do a lot of good. Make sure others in the band are
also learning about this stuff.

If the kik thru the mains does not work out, and your bass player has a
powerful rig, you might be able to run the kik thru the bass amp. My
bass amp is 1000 watts, 2X15", good to 37Hz and does very well with
kik mixed in. I have a parallel F/X loop, so I patch the kik in
at the return.

> EQ: We have a dual channel EQ that we will be hooking up to it. Is there an
> industry standard place it should go (plug into)?
>

One possible way to us it is one half for mains, one half for
monitors.

Here's how to ring out a PA
* w w w .youtube . com /watch?v=xBeV2BL-aRo

If you don't have an RTA or spectrograph, you'll have to guess at
frequencies. Wear plugs.

> Dual channel Compressor: We figure the compressor should go to the lead
> singer and to the bass drum. Ideas besides this?
>

I just wouldn't. If it's a compressor/limiter, the kik might benefit
from it. If you put a compressor on the lead vox, you will run into
more feedback. You might be able to strap it across the mains for
some gentle gain reduction, but you can get feedback from mains, too.

Compressors cause more feedback.

1) If you can figure it out, and
2) if the compressor is also a limiter, and
3) you run the EPS2500 in "stereo" to make the impedances match,
you could strap a limiter between the mixer and the mains amp
to keep from blowing those speakers, since you may be 6:1 in
power rating - the power amp is as much as six times what the mains
speakers can handle.

This is almost an oscope/test generator and whatnot thing, though. If
the limiter is limiting all the time, it might sound bad, so you
kinda have to know how...


> DSP: May not even use it but if we did, I'm pretty sure it would go into the
> FX loop.
>

Sorry if I am restating the obvious, but...

Each strip will have >=1 F/X sends. There will be F/X returns. You
assign F/X returns to mains or monitors, or both. How this is done
depends entirely on your mixer.

If you can get away from reverb in the monitors, you'll get less
feedback. A little echo is better - not slapback, but a few
hundred milliseconds.

> If you want specifics on the equipment we are using I will post that too but
> I was hoping there were some industry standard advice to use.
>
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all advice, ideas, and feedback.
>
>
>

Get *everybody* in the band involved with PA config. Even if they're
completely nontechnical, they all need to know.

--
Les Cargill

Re: OT: PA questions for a working band (long post)

The two most helpful pieces of general advice so far have been:

(1.) Hire a soundman to help you sort it out.

(2.) Get the whole band involved in setup.


Seriously.
You don't want to screw around with the technical details more than
necessary, and a few pointers from a pro go a long way. Also, none of
you guys are stars. Everyone should be helping haul the PA, set it up,
connect it, etc. It's everyone's job to help make the show sound good.
Fire any mf'er who disagrees with this, and let him go back to
starring in the great big concert he plays alone in his basement.


-dave-----:::
w w w .myspace . com /geetardave

Re: OT: PA questions for a working band (long post)


"Geetar Dave" <ebz@one . net > wrote in message
news:e90ce705-d749-43ed-828a-307b6c029ae6@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups . com ...
> The two most helpful pieces of general advice so far have been:
>
> (1.) Hire a soundman to help you sort it out.
>
> (2.) Get the whole band involved in setup.
>
>
> Seriously.
> You don't want to screw around with the technical details more than
> necessary, and a few pointers from a pro go a long way. Also, none of
> you guys are stars. Everyone should be helping haul the PA, set it up,
> connect it, etc. It's everyone's job to help make the show sound good.
> Fire any mf'er who disagrees with this, and let him go back to
> starring in the great big concert he plays alone in his basement.
>
>
> -dave-----:::
> w w w .myspace . com /geetardave

My nomination for post of the week.