OT: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

Reminder: The only good republican is a DEAD republican.

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

RichL wrote:

> The list goes on....

The planning for the invasion of Iraq would be another good example, those
who pointed out the plan was full of holes ranked from the bottom to the
top. At the top Franks and others had to fight with Rumsfeld over keeping
the force from being trimmed too far to be effective. At the bottom
planners asked about the WMD sites they should tell advancing forces to
seize and were told not to worry about it as nobody had any info on there
being such sites, so after awhile they learned to just shut up and get on
with the job.

I guess that's the sort of mindset you get when you believe God himself
approves of your plan, better Bush should have asked his dad for a little
advice.

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

DGDevin wrote:
> RichL wrote:
>
>> The list goes on....
>
> The planning for the invasion of Iraq would be another good example, those
> who pointed out the plan was full of holes ranked from the bottom to the
> top. At the top Franks and others had to fight with Rumsfeld over keeping
> the force from being trimmed too far to be effective.

The Frontline thing talks about that. An expensive, protracted
deployment would have been a no-sell. And nobody can possibly defend
the first few months of that mess.

They, again, used fait accompli. It worked.

> At the bottom
> planners asked about the WMD sites they should tell advancing forces to
> seize and were told not to worry about it as nobody had any info on there
> being such sites, so after awhile they learned to just shut up and get on
> with the job.
>
> I guess that's the sort of mindset you get when you believe God himself
> approves of your plan, better Bush should have asked his dad for a little
> advice.
>
>

No, I think that's *the* insight. He clearly didn't. I mean, Wesley
Clark pretty much laid out exactly how the Iraq deployment would go,
based on data from Gulf War I.

But we *measurably wanted to go in. I think we really,
really did not want The Other Shoe To Drop. If The
Other Shoe had Dropped...

I think we thought that if we went into Iraq, the other shoe would
not drop. I think we thought that. Maybe.

I dunno. Rent "Charlie Wilson's War". Good 'un.

--
Les Cargill

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

On Fri, 02 May 2008 23:21:27 -0400, Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com >
wrote:

>DGDevin wrote:
>> RichL wrote:
>>
>>> The list goes on....
>>
>> The planning for the invasion of Iraq would be another good example, those
>> who pointed out the plan was full of holes ranked from the bottom to the
>> top. At the top Franks and others had to fight with Rumsfeld over keeping
>> the force from being trimmed too far to be effective.
>
>The Frontline thing talks about that. An expensive, protracted
>deployment would have been a no-sell.

"Sell" being a key word. Payment for that particular "sale" was
what--thousands of lives.

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?


"RS" <RS@nospam,com > wrote in message
news:cmkt14ld0c19nkoshjpbjvmgtunhfdnrft@4ax,com ...
> On Fri, 02 May 2008 23:21:27 -0400, Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com >
> wrote:
>
>>DGDevin wrote:
>>> RichL wrote:
>>>
>>>> The list goes on....
>>>
>>> The planning for the invasion of Iraq would be another good example,
>>> those
>>> who pointed out the plan was full of holes ranked from the bottom to the
>>> top. At the top Franks and others had to fight with Rumsfeld over
>>> keeping
>>> the force from being trimmed too far to be effective.
>>
>>The Frontline thing talks about that. An expensive, protracted
>>deployment would have been a no-sell.
>
> "Sell" being a key word. Payment for that particular "sale" was
> what--thousands of lives.

I'd say you're low, by at least two orders of magnitude... given
the al-Qa`qaa fiasco (free plastique, anyone?) we're still paying
for the first, 'un-surged' part of the inadequately planned and
staffed invasion.

http :// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Qa'qaa_high_explosives_controversy

If someone manages to create a nuclear device with this stuff,
we will most definitely regret the incompetence. We will be
paying for Georgie's foolishness for a long time to come, I'll
warrant.
__
Steve
.

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

On May 2, 6:26=EF=BF=BDpm, "DGDevin" <dgde...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> RichL wrote:
> > The list goes on....
>
> The planning for the invasion of Iraq would be another good example, those=

> who pointed out the plan was full of holes ranked from the bottom to the
> top. =EF=BF=BDAt the top Franks and others had to fight with Rumsfeld over=
keeping
> the force from being trimmed too far to be effective. =EF=BF=BD At the bot=
tom
> planners asked about the WMD sites they should tell advancing forces to
> seize and were told not to worry about it as nobody had any info on there
> being such sites, so after awhile they learned to just shut up and get on
> with the job.

BFD. Even if what you say is true, in every war we have made mistakes.

Bottom line is the Iraq war was a texbook invasion and one of the
greatest military victories we ever had. Libs like Jimmy Carter, Ted
Kennedy, the UN etc. predicted 100,000 American dead and an ecological
disaster that would last for years.

You can't and never will be able to prevent guerilla warfare in any
war if the enemy has the will to die.


> I guess that's the sort of mindset you get when you believe God himself
> approves of your plan, better Bush should have asked his dad for a little
> advice.


Hear is Devine repeating the liberal line. He has no idea even Hillary
and Obama (among many previous Presidents) have said they pray and are
doing the Lord's work.

Once again, you don't know anything about history -

----
http :// www ,fr ontpagemag,com /Articles/Printable.aspx?GUID=3DED3D3AFE-3996-4CF=
5-91F4-13DC5A702AC2

Over the weekend, Senator Obama went into a huge church in Greenville,
South Carolina and called himself an "instrument of God," one who is
"confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on earth." His
message was notably Hillary-like, as Senator Clinton is fond of
quoting Methodist founder John Wesley, who stated, "The world is my
parish." Both Senators Clinton and Obama see themselves as doing the
Lord's work; or, as Mrs. Clinton's husband said during a political
rally at a Newark church in 1996: "God's work must be our own."



"Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His
help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our
own." - John F. Kennedy

"I've always believed that we were, each of us, put here for a reason,
that there is a ... divine plan for all of us. I know now that
whatever days are left to me belong to him [God]." - Ronald Reagan
after asassination attempt

"I draw strength from my belief in God and his teaching. That belief
and faith in the Almighty helps me to cope with a tragedy like this."
- Ronald Reagan after space shuttle explosion

President Clinton asked members of a black church Sunday to pray for
the resurrection of his crime bill, saying it was God's will that U.S.
officials make the country "as safe as we possibly can."

"God's will be done. I am in His hands." -Abraham Lincoln

"I am almost ready to say this is probably true--that God wills this
contest (the Civil War), and wills that it shall not end yet" -
Abraham Lincoln

"Almighty God: we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the
United States in Thy holy protection: that Thou wilt incline the
hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and
obedience to government, and entertain a brotherly affection and love
for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States at
large. and finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to
dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves
with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind which were the
characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and
without a humble imitation of whose example in these things we can
never hope to be a happy nation. Grant our supplication, we beseech
Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen." - George Washington

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

RichL wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote:
>
>> Bush has [....] a highly loyalty-driven leadership style ( almost to
> the point of being a weakness )....
>
> While such a style may be considered an asset in a business leader (and
> I'd even question that), it is (to me at least) a horrible liability in
> government and particularly in a president.

Had they not employed
that tactic, they would not have survived to be discussed in this thread.

It does not matter whether it is a liability after the fact.


> So to me, it's a terrible
> weakness, one which manifests itself in what you refer to as the dissent
> issue. The trouble is that attempts to present reasonable policy
> alternatives are perceived as dissent. In an enterprise as complex as
> operating the executive branch of the US government, this is a *fatal*
> flaw and results in tragic consequences inevitably.
>

Well, then we should stop *immediately* as voters any behavior which
rewards the creation of insular, opaque cliques of government
insiders.

Because that is what happened. From Carter, his people simply...
evaporated. Reagan's people either wore out or went to Bush41.

Clinton's people broke themselves against the Contract for America guys,
who championed... term limits.

This is what was left. They survivied by the discipline of loyalty.

> Bush's pro-business orientation coupled with this "you're with me or
> against me" attitude has led, among other things, to the breakdown of
> innumerable federal agencies (just about all of the ones whose
> responsibility is primarily in the domestic arena).

That particular arc leads to well before Reagan.

> I can't even begin
> to list them here, but I can imagine some of the conversations that did
> *NOT* take place because of Bush's attitudes:
>
> USDA: "Sure, Mr. President, we can import drugs cheaply from China, and
> that would save retailers money, but shouldn't we make sure they're safe
> first?"
>

AIDS activist: the drug approval process is killing people.

> EPA, NASA, ...: "Mr. President, these science types at our agencies
> know their stuff pretty well, maybe we should consider their input
> before we start making policy."
>

I cannot think of a whole lot of policy right now that science could
help much with. Kyoto? Um, no.

> FEMA: "Mr. President, it's usually a good idea to leave enough of the
> National Guard in the US so that they can respond effectively to a
> natural disaster, should it occur."
>

The planning model for the defense of New Orleans was cast at a certain
level of water.

That level was exceeded. The rest was the sort of systems failure not
seen since the Greenville Flood of 1927.

That water level was negotiated due to budgetary constraints. So
it goes.

> The list goes on....
>

Of course it does.

--
Les Cargill

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

Les Cargill wrote:

> There are far more points in common than in difference. They have to
> do with how they viewed America's role in the world. I mean, almost
> everything TR did was imperial.

In terms of foreign policy, yes. But in other arenas TR was considered
almost a radical reformer, e.g. he believed that big business had to be
reined in and he did so. TR was also a widely accomplished man with a lot
of interests, he was an author, explorer, soldier, historian, naturalist and
so on, he was considered an intellectual and a bit of a rock star at the
same time. Contrast that with Bush, he appears almost a non-entity beside
TR.

> Different time. We would no longer elect somebody who had written so
> much as a published academic paper. Some mirror that is, isn't it?

I disagree, if Stormin' Norman had decided to enter politics he would have
easily had a shot at VP and perhaps higher, Colin Powell had a good chance
as well until he made the mistake of shilling for the administration's plan
for Iraq. Both those guys have their share of academic credentials.

> Bush tried to be a warrior. His timing wasn't very good.

Ah, I think he found a way to avoid going to Vietnam while not looking like
a draft dodger. He didn't seriously try to be a warrior, he could easily
have served in combat if he had really wanted to.

> Exactly. Yes yes! See, I think that makes 'em a lot the same - they
> both operated according to the fashion of the time...

How so? E.g. TR created more national park land than every President before
him put together had done, he wasn't just following the usual style. And it
seems a stretch to suggest that Bush was responding to popular demand in
emasculating agencies designed to protect the public from things like
dangerous foods, drugs and so on. The corporate scandals typified by Enron
would also seem to have increased the demand for oversight, not reduced it.

> Look. Bush's presentation does not bother me. I grew up with people
> who talked like that, sorta like Levon Helm's character in "The Right
> Stuff". I do not assume that makes 'em dumb. Because it does not. Some
> people use that to hustle people.

I don't think Bush is dumb, I do think he's horribly misguided in that he
rejects whatever doesn't support the conclusion he wants to arrive at and
has a problem realizing when he's made a mistake. He isn't alone in that,
Churchill was much the same, but Churchill has his share of brilliant ideas
as well, and I'm having trouble remembering Bush's brilliant ideas.

> Bush has considerable grace under what was immense pressure, has
> a highly loyalty-driven leadership style ( almost to the point of
> being a weakness ) and had good political fire discipline. Until you
> think about everything that happened, it's hard ( for me at least )
> to remember it all. This was Deep Sh*t. This was an existential
> crisis. We were *scared*.

The part that depresses me is we were also united, with the sympathy and
even the support of much of the world, and Bush pissed that all away.

> The problem was that his team did not cotton to dissent. At all. You
> spoke up in opposition, and you were Out. I think he was a Veep away
> from being a very good President - Cheney is just *phenomenal* at
> infighting.

Yeah, that's sure true, the story of Powell having to fight Cheney and
Rumsfelt to keep the nation from getting into an ill-advised war is
depressing as hell.

> I am not making this up, this is not a troll, and I mean no offense.
> There is a lotta there there. It is fun to dig through. The guy's
> weaknesses are incredible, but he's very resolute in overcoming them.
> He is a person of not inconsiderable will.

Unfortunately the insight to go with that willpower seems to be missing. To
hear him explain that he didn't ask his father for advice on Iraq because he
takes his direction from a higher authority (i.e. God) is really not
something I want to hear from any President.

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

On Thu, 01 May 2008 19:15:14 -0400, Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com >
wrote:
>I think that 20 years out, he'll be considered a very good President.

Les, I love ya', but damn!

BTW, the earth isn't really flat either. That's not exactlly what
general relativity is about...if you recall that conversation. At
least that was not as far-fetched as this one.

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

RS wrote:
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 19:15:14 -0400, Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com >
> wrote:
>> I think that 20 years out, he'll be considered a very good President.
>
> Les, I love ya', but damn!
>
> BTW, the earth isn't really flat either. That's not exactlly what
> general relativity is about...if you recall that conversation. At
> least that was not as far-fetched as this one.

GO through a list of Presidents. Find out how they were thought of
right before they left office. Check back on 'em twenty years later.

It is never even close to the same. I think even Grant was rehabbed
as a historical figure about the 1900 time frame.

Watch the "Frontline". You've been spun.

--
Les Cargill

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote:
> RS wrote:
>> On Thu, 01 May 2008 19:15:14 -0400, Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com >
>> wrote:
>>> I think that 20 years out, he'll be considered a very good
>>> President.
>>
>> Les, I love ya', but damn!
>>
>> BTW, the earth isn't really flat either. That's not exactlly what
>> general relativity is about...if you recall that conversation. At
>> least that was not as far-fetched as this one.
>
> GO through a list of Presidents. Find out how they were thought of
> right before they left office. Check back on 'em twenty years later.
>
> It is never even close to the same. I think even Grant was rehabbed
> as a historical figure about the 1900 time frame.
>
> Watch the "Frontline". You've been spun.

You're right, in many cases.
A lot depends on how the GWOT ends up being perceived 30, 40, 50 years
from now. It's entirely conceivable that people will look back on it
the same way we look at the 18th amendment now. Much ado about nothing.

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

On Sat, 03 May 2008 00:26:55 GMT, "RichL" <rpleavitt@yahoo,com > wrote:

>Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote:
>>
>> Watch the "Frontline". You've been spun.

Right.

>You're right, in many cases.
>A lot depends on how the GWOT ends up being perceived 30, 40, 50 years
>from now. It's entirely conceivable that people will look back on it
>the same way we look at the 18th amendment now. Much ado about nothing.

Possible that the economic hit from the Iraq war is not for real? It
is entirely possible that this will be a lot -worse- than what we are
seeing now. I believe that is the more likely scenario.

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

RS <RS@nospam,com > wrote:
> On Sat, 03 May 2008 00:26:55 GMT, "RichL" <rpleavitt@yahoo,com > wrote:
>
>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote:
>>>
>>> Watch the "Frontline". You've been spun.
>
> Right.
>
>> You're right, in many cases.
>> A lot depends on how the GWOT ends up being perceived 30, 40, 50
>> years from now. It's entirely conceivable that people will look
>> back on it the same way we look at the 18th amendment now. Much ado
>> about nothing.
>
> Possible that the economic hit from the Iraq war is not for real? It
> is entirely possible that this will be a lot -worse- than what we are
> seeing now. I believe that is the more likely scenario.

Oh sure, I agree with that. I'm not trivializing the adverse
consequences for the US, mainly question the whole "western civilization
is at stake" fraud.

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

RichL wrote:
> RS <RS@nospam,com > wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 May 2008 00:26:55 GMT, "RichL" <rpleavitt@yahoo,com > wrote:
>>
>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote:
>>>> Watch the "Frontline". You've been spun.
>> Right.
>>
>>> You're right, in many cases.
>>> A lot depends on how the GWOT ends up being perceived 30, 40, 50
>>> years from now. It's entirely conceivable that people will look
>>> back on it the same way we look at the 18th amendment now. Much ado
>>> about nothing.
>> Possible that the economic hit from the Iraq war is not for real? It
>> is entirely possible that this will be a lot -worse- than what we are
>> seeing now. I believe that is the more likely scenario.
>
> Oh sure, I agree with that. I'm not trivializing the adverse
> consequences for the US, mainly question the whole "western civilization
> is at stake" fraud.
>
>
Republican ideologues from Texas getting elected for high office again
is probably 'at stake' for quite some time to come. The entire neocon
bit is as done-for as Sen. McCarthy was after the hearings that made
his whole Stalinesque act vaporize like a pc. of dry ice dropped on
baking-hot highway in the noon sun on an August afternoon.

What's leftover types Jr. High idiocy / taunts at anyone dumb enough to
respond, and that's what software filters were made for. :-) mvm

http :// tinyurl,com /32j32m

Re: GWB Most Unpopular President Ever?

"RichL" <rpleavitt@yahoo,com > wrote:
> RS <RS@nospam,com > wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 May 2008 00:26:55 GMT, "RichL" <rpleavitt@yahoo,com > wrote:
>>
>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Watch the "Frontline". You've been spun.
>>
>> Right.
>>
>>> You're right, in many cases.
>>> A lot depends on how the GWOT ends up being perceived 30, 40, 50
>>> years from now. It's entirely conceivable that people will look
>>> back on it the same way we look at the 18th amendment now. Much ado
>>> about nothing.
>>
>> Possible that the economic hit from the Iraq war is not for real? It
>> is entirely possible that this will be a lot -worse- than what we are
>> seeing now. I believe that is the more likely scenario.
>
> Oh sure, I agree with that. I'm not trivializing the adverse
> consequences for the US, mainly question the whole "western civilization
> is at stake" fraud.

Is this guitar related in any way?

--
Mats Peterson
http :// www .geocities,com /matsp888/