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OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
"Claude V. Lucas" <claudel@sonic . net > wrote in message
news:482c61fe$0$34484$742ec2ed@news.sonic . net ...
> In article <A8ZWj.46097$3v1.4791@bignews3.bellsouth . net >,
> Elvis Kabong <ampscience@tuneland . com > wrote:
>>
>>"Claude V. Lucas" <claudel@sonic . net > wrote in message
>>news:482c34ea$0$34521$742ec2ed@news.sonic . net ...
>>> In article <482C0147.FF88BDC6@timeelect . com >,
>>> Rich Koerner <richk@timeelect . com > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Mr Soul wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From Carter's 7/15/79 "Crisis of Confidence" speech:
>>>>>
>>>>> "... We know the strength of America. We are strong. We can regain our
>>>>> unity. We can regain our confidence. We are the heirs of generations
>>>>> who survived threats much more powerful and awesome than those that
>>>>> challenge us now. Our fathers and mothers were strong men and women
>>>>> who shaped a new society during the Great Depression, who fought world
>>>>> wars, and who carved out a new charter of peace for the world.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> All the traditions of our past, all the lessons of our heritage, all
>>>>> the promises of our future point to another path, the path of common
>>>>> purpose and the restoration of American values. That path leads to
>>>>> true freedom for our nation and ourselves. We can take the first steps
>>>>> down that path as we begin to solve our energy problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Energy will be the immediate test of our ability to unite this nation,
>>>>> and it can also be the standard around which we rally. On the
>>>>> battlefield of energy we can win for our nation a new confidence, and
>>>>> we can seize control again of our common destiny.
>>>>>
>>>>> In little more than two decades we've gone from a position of energy
>>>>> independence to one in which almost half the oil we use comes from
>>>>> foreign countries, at prices that are going through the roof. Our
>>>>> excessive dependence on OPEC has already taken a tremendous toll on
>>>>> our economy and our people...
>>>>>
>>>>> What I have to say to you now about energy is simple and vitally
>>>>> important.
>>>>>
>>>>> Point one: I am tonight setting a clear goal for the energy policy of
>>>>> the United States. Beginning this moment, this nation will never use
>>>>> more foreign oil than we did in 1977 -- never...I am tonight setting
>>>>> the further goal of cutting our dependence on foreign oil by one-half
>>>>> by the end of the next decade -- a saving of over 4-1/2 million
>>>>> barrels of imported oil per day.
>>>>>
>>>>> Point two: To ensure that we meet these targets, I will use my
>>>>> presidential authority to set import quotas. I'm announcing tonight
>>>>> that for 1979 and 1980, I will forbid the entry into this country of
>>>>> one drop of foreign oil more than these goals allow...
>>>>>
>>>>> Point three: To give us energy security, I am asking for the most
>>>>> massive peacetime commitment of funds and resources in our nation's
>>>>> history to develop America's own alternative sources of fuel -- from
>>>>> coal, from oil shale, from plant products for gasohol, from
>>>>> unconventional gas, from the sun.
>>>>>
>>>>> I propose the creation of an energy security corporation to lead this
>>>>> effort to replace 2-1/2 million barrels of imported oil per day by
>>>>> 1990. The corporation I will issue up to $5 billion in energy bonds,
>>>>> and I especially want them to be in small denominations so that
>>>>> average Americans can invest directly in America's energy security.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just as a similar synthetic rubber corporation helped us win World War
>>>>> II, so will we mobilize American determination and ability to win the
>>>>> energy war. Moreover, I will soon submit legislation to Congress
>>>>> calling for the creation of this nation's first solar bank, which will
>>>>> help us achieve the crucial goal of 20 percent of our energy coming
>>>>> from solar power by the year 2000.
>>>>>
>>>>> These efforts will cost money, a lot of money, and that is why
>>>>> Congress must enact the windfall profits tax without delay. It will be
>>>>> money well spent. Unlike the billions of dollars that we ship to
>>>>> foreign countries to pay for foreign oil, these funds will be paid by
>>>>> Americans to Americans. These funds will go to fight, not to increase,
>>>>> inflation and unemployment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Point four: I'm asking Congress to mandate, to require as a matter of
>>>>> law, that our nation's utility companies cut their massive use of oil
>>>>> by 50 percent within the next decade and switch to other fuels,
>>>>> especially coal, our most abundant energy source.
>>>>>
>>>>> Point six: I'm proposing a bold conservation program to involve every
>>>>> state, county, and city and every average American in our energy
>>>>> battle. This effort will permit you to build conservation into your
>>>>> homes and your lives at a cost you can afford.
>>>>>
>>>>> You know we can do it. We have the natural resources. We have more oil
>>>>> in our shale alone than several Saudi Arabias. We have more coal than
>>>>> any nation on Earth. We have the world's highest level of technology.
>>>>> We have the most skilled work force, with innovative genius, and I
>>>>> firmly believe that we have the national will to win this war.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not promise you that this struggle for freedom will be easy. I do
>>>>> not promise a quick way out of our nation's problems, when the truth
>>>>> is that the only way out is an all-out effort. What I do promise you
>>>>> is that I will lead our fight, and I will enforce fairness in our
>>>>> struggle, and I will ensure honesty. And above all, I will act. We can
>>>>> manage the short-term shortages more effectively and we will, but
>>>>> there are no short-term solutions to our long-range problems. There is
>>>>> simply no way to avoid sacrifice. .."
>>>>>
>>>>> Too bad we hadn't listened to Jimmy Carter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mr Soul
>>>>
>>>>Yet, another reason for mandatory drug testing for anyone holding public
>>>>office.
>>>>
>>>
>>> or voting.
>>
>>IQ test for voting AND for a driving license.
>>
>>
>
> I've thought for a while now that some sort of public service,
> ala Starship Troopers before being allowed to have a say in
> public affairs wouldn't be a bad idea.
Don't the Swiss do that?
I've thought about that too, and almost joined but didn't believe we needed
to be in Vietnam at the time. Now if
something like Red Dawn happened, I'd definitely have
joined or become a wolverine if unable to pass the physcial.
Guess I prefer the freedom of choice thingy.
"Claude V. Lucas" <claudel@sonic . net > wrote in message
news:482c61fe$0$34484$742ec2ed@news.sonic . net ...
> In article <A8ZWj.46097$3v1.4791@bignews3.bellsouth . net >,
> Elvis Kabong <ampscience@tuneland . com > wrote:
>>
>>"Claude V. Lucas" <claudel@sonic . net > wrote in message
>>news:482c34ea$0$34521$742ec2ed@news.sonic . net ...
>>> In article <482C0147.FF88BDC6@timeelect . com >,
>>> Rich Koerner <richk@timeelect . com > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Mr Soul wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From Carter's 7/15/79 "Crisis of Confidence" speech:
>>>>>
>>>>> "... We know the strength of America. We are strong. We can regain our
>>>>> unity. We can regain our confidence. We are the heirs of generations
>>>>> who survived threats much more powerful and awesome than those that
>>>>> challenge us now. Our fathers and mothers were strong men and women
>>>>> who shaped a new society during the Great Depression, who fought world
>>>>> wars, and who carved out a new charter of peace for the world.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> All the traditions of our past, all the lessons of our heritage, all
>>>>> the promises of our future point to another path, the path of common
>>>>> purpose and the restoration of American values. That path leads to
>>>>> true freedom for our nation and ourselves. We can take the first steps
>>>>> down that path as we begin to solve our energy problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Energy will be the immediate test of our ability to unite this nation,
>>>>> and it can also be the standard around which we rally. On the
>>>>> battlefield of energy we can win for our nation a new confidence, and
>>>>> we can seize control again of our common destiny.
>>>>>
>>>>> In little more than two decades we've gone from a position of energy
>>>>> independence to one in which almost half the oil we use comes from
>>>>> foreign countries, at prices that are going through the roof. Our
>>>>> excessive dependence on OPEC has already taken a tremendous toll on
>>>>> our economy and our people...
>>>>>
>>>>> What I have to say to you now about energy is simple and vitally
>>>>> important.
>>>>>
>>>>> Point one: I am tonight setting a clear goal for the energy policy of
>>>>> the United States. Beginning this moment, this nation will never use
>>>>> more foreign oil than we did in 1977 -- never...I am tonight setting
>>>>> the further goal of cutting our dependence on foreign oil by one-half
>>>>> by the end of the next decade -- a saving of over 4-1/2 million
>>>>> barrels of imported oil per day.
>>>>>
>>>>> Point two: To ensure that we meet these targets, I will use my
>>>>> presidential authority to set import quotas. I'm announcing tonight
>>>>> that for 1979 and 1980, I will forbid the entry into this country of
>>>>> one drop of foreign oil more than these goals allow...
>>>>>
>>>>> Point three: To give us energy security, I am asking for the most
>>>>> massive peacetime commitment of funds and resources in our nation's
>>>>> history to develop America's own alternative sources of fuel -- from
>>>>> coal, from oil shale, from plant products for gasohol, from
>>>>> unconventional gas, from the sun.
>>>>>
>>>>> I propose the creation of an energy security corporation to lead this
>>>>> effort to replace 2-1/2 million barrels of imported oil per day by
>>>>> 1990. The corporation I will issue up to $5 billion in energy bonds,
>>>>> and I especially want them to be in small denominations so that
>>>>> average Americans can invest directly in America's energy security.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just as a similar synthetic rubber corporation helped us win World War
>>>>> II, so will we mobilize American determination and ability to win the
>>>>> energy war. Moreover, I will soon submit legislation to Congress
>>>>> calling for the creation of this nation's first solar bank, which will
>>>>> help us achieve the crucial goal of 20 percent of our energy coming
>>>>> from solar power by the year 2000.
>>>>>
>>>>> These efforts will cost money, a lot of money, and that is why
>>>>> Congress must enact the windfall profits tax without delay. It will be
>>>>> money well spent. Unlike the billions of dollars that we ship to
>>>>> foreign countries to pay for foreign oil, these funds will be paid by
>>>>> Americans to Americans. These funds will go to fight, not to increase,
>>>>> inflation and unemployment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Point four: I'm asking Congress to mandate, to require as a matter of
>>>>> law, that our nation's utility companies cut their massive use of oil
>>>>> by 50 percent within the next decade and switch to other fuels,
>>>>> especially coal, our most abundant energy source.
>>>>>
>>>>> Point six: I'm proposing a bold conservation program to involve every
>>>>> state, county, and city and every average American in our energy
>>>>> battle. This effort will permit you to build conservation into your
>>>>> homes and your lives at a cost you can afford.
>>>>>
>>>>> You know we can do it. We have the natural resources. We have more oil
>>>>> in our shale alone than several Saudi Arabias. We have more coal than
>>>>> any nation on Earth. We have the world's highest level of technology.
>>>>> We have the most skilled work force, with innovative genius, and I
>>>>> firmly believe that we have the national will to win this war.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not promise you that this struggle for freedom will be easy. I do
>>>>> not promise a quick way out of our nation's problems, when the truth
>>>>> is that the only way out is an all-out effort. What I do promise you
>>>>> is that I will lead our fight, and I will enforce fairness in our
>>>>> struggle, and I will ensure honesty. And above all, I will act. We can
>>>>> manage the short-term shortages more effectively and we will, but
>>>>> there are no short-term solutions to our long-range problems. There is
>>>>> simply no way to avoid sacrifice. .."
>>>>>
>>>>> Too bad we hadn't listened to Jimmy Carter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mr Soul
>>>>
>>>>Yet, another reason for mandatory drug testing for anyone holding public
>>>>office.
>>>>
>>>
>>> or voting.
>>
>>IQ test for voting AND for a driving license.
>>
>>
>
> I've thought for a while now that some sort of public service,
> ala Starship Troopers before being allowed to have a say in
> public affairs wouldn't be a bad idea.
Don't the Swiss do that?
I've thought about that too, and almost joined but didn't believe we needed
to be in Vietnam at the time. Now if
something like Red Dawn happened, I'd definitely have
joined or become a wolverine if unable to pass the physcial.
Guess I prefer the freedom of choice thingy.
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
In article <NCZWj.46111$3v1.5710@bignews3.bellsouth . net >,
Elvis Kabong <ampscience@tuneland . com > wrote:
>
>"Claude V. Lucas" <claudel@sonic . net > wrote in message
>news:482c61fe$0$34484$742ec2ed@news.sonic . net ...
>> In article <A8ZWj.46097$3v1.4791@bignews3.bellsouth . net >,
>> Elvis Kabong <ampscience@tuneland . com > wrote:
>>>
>>>"Claude V. Lucas" <claudel@sonic . net > wrote in message
>>>news:482c34ea$0$34521$742ec2ed@news.sonic . net ...
>>>> In article <482C0147.FF88BDC6@timeelect . com >,
>>>> Rich Koerner <richk@timeelect . com > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Mr Soul wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From Carter's 7/15/79 "Crisis of Confidence" speech:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "... We know the strength of America. We are strong. We can regain our
>>>>>> unity. We can regain our confidence. We are the heirs of generations
>>>>>> who survived threats much more powerful and awesome than those that
>>>>>> challenge us now. Our fathers and mothers were strong men and women
>>>>>> who shaped a new society during the Great Depression, who fought world
>>>>>> wars, and who carved out a new charter of peace for the world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the traditions of our past, all the lessons of our heritage, all
>>>>>> the promises of our future point to another path, the path of common
>>>>>> purpose and the restoration of American values. That path leads to
>>>>>> true freedom for our nation and ourselves. We can take the first steps
>>>>>> down that path as we begin to solve our energy problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Energy will be the immediate test of our ability to unite this nation,
>>>>>> and it can also be the standard around which we rally. On the
>>>>>> battlefield of energy we can win for our nation a new confidence, and
>>>>>> we can seize control again of our common destiny.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In little more than two decades we've gone from a position of energy
>>>>>> independence to one in which almost half the oil we use comes from
>>>>>> foreign countries, at prices that are going through the roof. Our
>>>>>> excessive dependence on OPEC has already taken a tremendous toll on
>>>>>> our economy and our people...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I have to say to you now about energy is simple and vitally
>>>>>> important.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Point one: I am tonight setting a clear goal for the energy policy of
>>>>>> the United States. Beginning this moment, this nation will never use
>>>>>> more foreign oil than we did in 1977 -- never...I am tonight setting
>>>>>> the further goal of cutting our dependence on foreign oil by one-half
>>>>>> by the end of the next decade -- a saving of over 4-1/2 million
>>>>>> barrels of imported oil per day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Point two: To ensure that we meet these targets, I will use my
>>>>>> presidential authority to set import quotas. I'm announcing tonight
>>>>>> that for 1979 and 1980, I will forbid the entry into this country of
>>>>>> one drop of foreign oil more than these goals allow...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Point three: To give us energy security, I am asking for the most
>>>>>> massive peacetime commitment of funds and resources in our nation's
>>>>>> history to develop America's own alternative sources of fuel -- from
>>>>>> coal, from oil shale, from plant products for gasohol, from
>>>>>> unconventional gas, from the sun.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I propose the creation of an energy security corporation to lead this
>>>>>> effort to replace 2-1/2 million barrels of imported oil per day by
>>>>>> 1990. The corporation I will issue up to $5 billion in energy bonds,
>>>>>> and I especially want them to be in small denominations so that
>>>>>> average Americans can invest directly in America's energy security.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just as a similar synthetic rubber corporation helped us win World War
>>>>>> II, so will we mobilize American determination and ability to win the
>>>>>> energy war. Moreover, I will soon submit legislation to Congress
>>>>>> calling for the creation of this nation's first solar bank, which will
>>>>>> help us achieve the crucial goal of 20 percent of our energy coming
>>>>>> from solar power by the year 2000.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These efforts will cost money, a lot of money, and that is why
>>>>>> Congress must enact the windfall profits tax without delay. It will be
>>>>>> money well spent. Unlike the billions of dollars that we ship to
>>>>>> foreign countries to pay for foreign oil, these funds will be paid by
>>>>>> Americans to Americans. These funds will go to fight, not to increase,
>>>>>> inflation and unemployment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Point four: I'm asking Congress to mandate, to require as a matter of
>>>>>> law, that our nation's utility companies cut their massive use of oil
>>>>>> by 50 percent within the next decade and switch to other fuels,
>>>>>> especially coal, our most abundant energy source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Point six: I'm proposing a bold conservation program to involve every
>>>>>> state, county, and city and every average American in our energy
>>>>>> battle. This effort will permit you to build conservation into your
>>>>>> homes and your lives at a cost you can afford.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know we can do it. We have the natural resources. We have more oil
>>>>>> in our shale alone than several Saudi Arabias. We have more coal than
>>>>>> any nation on Earth. We have the world's highest level of technology.
>>>>>> We have the most skilled work force, with innovative genius, and I
>>>>>> firmly believe that we have the national will to win this war.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not promise you that this struggle for freedom will be easy. I do
>>>>>> not promise a quick way out of our nation's problems, when the truth
>>>>>> is that the only way out is an all-out effort. What I do promise you
>>>>>> is that I will lead our fight, and I will enforce fairness in our
>>>>>> struggle, and I will ensure honesty. And above all, I will act. We can
>>>>>> manage the short-term shortages more effectively and we will, but
>>>>>> there are no short-term solutions to our long-range problems. There is
>>>>>> simply no way to avoid sacrifice. .."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Too bad we hadn't listened to Jimmy Carter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mr Soul
>>>>>
>>>>>Yet, another reason for mandatory drug testing for anyone holding public
>>>>>office.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> or voting.
>>>
>>>IQ test for voting AND for a driving license.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I've thought for a while now that some sort of public service,
>> ala Starship Troopers before being allowed to have a say in
>> public affairs wouldn't be a bad idea.
>
>Don't the Swiss do that?
I believe that they have mandatory military service for people
of a certain age including storing fully automatic weapons
at home, with the govt. providing an ammo allocation.
>
>I've thought about that too, and almost joined but didn't believe we needed
>to be in Vietnam at the time. Now if
>something like Red Dawn happened, I'd definitely have
>joined or become a wolverine if unable to pass the physcial.
>Guess I prefer the freedom of choice thingy.
I wouldn't limit the service requirement to the military, but
a couple of years of some sort of service just might make some
people appreciate the franchise a bit more.
In article <NCZWj.46111$3v1.5710@bignews3.bellsouth . net >,
Elvis Kabong <ampscience@tuneland . com > wrote:
>
>"Claude V. Lucas" <claudel@sonic . net > wrote in message
>news:482c61fe$0$34484$742ec2ed@news.sonic . net ...
>> In article <A8ZWj.46097$3v1.4791@bignews3.bellsouth . net >,
>> Elvis Kabong <ampscience@tuneland . com > wrote:
>>>
>>>"Claude V. Lucas" <claudel@sonic . net > wrote in message
>>>news:482c34ea$0$34521$742ec2ed@news.sonic . net ...
>>>> In article <482C0147.FF88BDC6@timeelect . com >,
>>>> Rich Koerner <richk@timeelect . com > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Mr Soul wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From Carter's 7/15/79 "Crisis of Confidence" speech:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "... We know the strength of America. We are strong. We can regain our
>>>>>> unity. We can regain our confidence. We are the heirs of generations
>>>>>> who survived threats much more powerful and awesome than those that
>>>>>> challenge us now. Our fathers and mothers were strong men and women
>>>>>> who shaped a new society during the Great Depression, who fought world
>>>>>> wars, and who carved out a new charter of peace for the world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the traditions of our past, all the lessons of our heritage, all
>>>>>> the promises of our future point to another path, the path of common
>>>>>> purpose and the restoration of American values. That path leads to
>>>>>> true freedom for our nation and ourselves. We can take the first steps
>>>>>> down that path as we begin to solve our energy problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Energy will be the immediate test of our ability to unite this nation,
>>>>>> and it can also be the standard around which we rally. On the
>>>>>> battlefield of energy we can win for our nation a new confidence, and
>>>>>> we can seize control again of our common destiny.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In little more than two decades we've gone from a position of energy
>>>>>> independence to one in which almost half the oil we use comes from
>>>>>> foreign countries, at prices that are going through the roof. Our
>>>>>> excessive dependence on OPEC has already taken a tremendous toll on
>>>>>> our economy and our people...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I have to say to you now about energy is simple and vitally
>>>>>> important.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Point one: I am tonight setting a clear goal for the energy policy of
>>>>>> the United States. Beginning this moment, this nation will never use
>>>>>> more foreign oil than we did in 1977 -- never...I am tonight setting
>>>>>> the further goal of cutting our dependence on foreign oil by one-half
>>>>>> by the end of the next decade -- a saving of over 4-1/2 million
>>>>>> barrels of imported oil per day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Point two: To ensure that we meet these targets, I will use my
>>>>>> presidential authority to set import quotas. I'm announcing tonight
>>>>>> that for 1979 and 1980, I will forbid the entry into this country of
>>>>>> one drop of foreign oil more than these goals allow...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Point three: To give us energy security, I am asking for the most
>>>>>> massive peacetime commitment of funds and resources in our nation's
>>>>>> history to develop America's own alternative sources of fuel -- from
>>>>>> coal, from oil shale, from plant products for gasohol, from
>>>>>> unconventional gas, from the sun.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I propose the creation of an energy security corporation to lead this
>>>>>> effort to replace 2-1/2 million barrels of imported oil per day by
>>>>>> 1990. The corporation I will issue up to $5 billion in energy bonds,
>>>>>> and I especially want them to be in small denominations so that
>>>>>> average Americans can invest directly in America's energy security.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just as a similar synthetic rubber corporation helped us win World War
>>>>>> II, so will we mobilize American determination and ability to win the
>>>>>> energy war. Moreover, I will soon submit legislation to Congress
>>>>>> calling for the creation of this nation's first solar bank, which will
>>>>>> help us achieve the crucial goal of 20 percent of our energy coming
>>>>>> from solar power by the year 2000.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These efforts will cost money, a lot of money, and that is why
>>>>>> Congress must enact the windfall profits tax without delay. It will be
>>>>>> money well spent. Unlike the billions of dollars that we ship to
>>>>>> foreign countries to pay for foreign oil, these funds will be paid by
>>>>>> Americans to Americans. These funds will go to fight, not to increase,
>>>>>> inflation and unemployment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Point four: I'm asking Congress to mandate, to require as a matter of
>>>>>> law, that our nation's utility companies cut their massive use of oil
>>>>>> by 50 percent within the next decade and switch to other fuels,
>>>>>> especially coal, our most abundant energy source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Point six: I'm proposing a bold conservation program to involve every
>>>>>> state, county, and city and every average American in our energy
>>>>>> battle. This effort will permit you to build conservation into your
>>>>>> homes and your lives at a cost you can afford.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know we can do it. We have the natural resources. We have more oil
>>>>>> in our shale alone than several Saudi Arabias. We have more coal than
>>>>>> any nation on Earth. We have the world's highest level of technology.
>>>>>> We have the most skilled work force, with innovative genius, and I
>>>>>> firmly believe that we have the national will to win this war.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not promise you that this struggle for freedom will be easy. I do
>>>>>> not promise a quick way out of our nation's problems, when the truth
>>>>>> is that the only way out is an all-out effort. What I do promise you
>>>>>> is that I will lead our fight, and I will enforce fairness in our
>>>>>> struggle, and I will ensure honesty. And above all, I will act. We can
>>>>>> manage the short-term shortages more effectively and we will, but
>>>>>> there are no short-term solutions to our long-range problems. There is
>>>>>> simply no way to avoid sacrifice. .."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Too bad we hadn't listened to Jimmy Carter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mr Soul
>>>>>
>>>>>Yet, another reason for mandatory drug testing for anyone holding public
>>>>>office.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> or voting.
>>>
>>>IQ test for voting AND for a driving license.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I've thought for a while now that some sort of public service,
>> ala Starship Troopers before being allowed to have a say in
>> public affairs wouldn't be a bad idea.
>
>Don't the Swiss do that?
I believe that they have mandatory military service for people
of a certain age including storing fully automatic weapons
at home, with the govt. providing an ammo allocation.
>
>I've thought about that too, and almost joined but didn't believe we needed
>to be in Vietnam at the time. Now if
>something like Red Dawn happened, I'd definitely have
>joined or become a wolverine if unable to pass the physcial.
>Guess I prefer the freedom of choice thingy.
I wouldn't limit the service requirement to the military, but
a couple of years of some sort of service just might make some
people appreciate the franchise a bit more.
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
Elvis Kabong wrote:
> "Claude V. Lucas" <claudel@sonic . net > wrote in message
<snip>
> Don't the Swiss do that?
>
Yes. But we are not exactly the Swiss, are we?
> I've thought about that too, and almost joined but didn't believe we needed
> to be in Vietnam at the time. Now if
> something like Red Dawn happened, I'd definitely have
> joined or become a wolverine if unable to pass the physcial.
> Guess I prefer the freedom of choice thingy.
>
>
So does the military these days. Catch the PBS series "Carrier" - it
shows how they do it.
--
Les Cargill
Elvis Kabong wrote:
> "Claude V. Lucas" <claudel@sonic . net > wrote in message
<snip>
> Don't the Swiss do that?
>
Yes. But we are not exactly the Swiss, are we?
> I've thought about that too, and almost joined but didn't believe we needed
> to be in Vietnam at the time. Now if
> something like Red Dawn happened, I'd definitely have
> joined or become a wolverine if unable to pass the physcial.
> Guess I prefer the freedom of choice thingy.
>
>
So does the military these days. Catch the PBS series "Carrier" - it
shows how they do it.
--
Les Cargill
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
On Thu, 15 May 2008 11:35:39 -0500, "Elvis Kabong"
<ampscience@tuneland . com > wrote:
>
>I've thought about that too, and almost joined but didn't believe we needed
>to be in Vietnam at the time.
"Almost joined" - Hahahahahahahahaha
"I admit, I'm a draft dodger" - Ed Blum
"I read Michael Moore's books. How educated are you?" - Ed Blum
Fuckin dumbass chickenshithawk...
On Thu, 15 May 2008 11:35:39 -0500, "Elvis Kabong"
<ampscience@tuneland . com > wrote:
>
>I've thought about that too, and almost joined but didn't believe we needed
>to be in Vietnam at the time.
"Almost joined" - Hahahahahahahahaha
"I admit, I'm a draft dodger" - Ed Blum
"I read Michael Moore's books. How educated are you?" - Ed Blum
Fuckin dumbass chickenshithawk...
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
"McGarnagle" <McGarnagle@notospam . com > wrote in message
news:fprq24d1v9hjvud8t0f03fvic7nmmv0cpm@4ax . com ...
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 11:35:39 -0500, "Elvis Kabong"
> <ampscience@tuneland . com > wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I've thought about that too, and almost joined but didn't believe we
>>needed
>>to be in Vietnam at the time.
>
>
> "Almost joined" - Hahahahahahahahaha
>
>
> "I admit, I'm a draft dodger" - Ed Blum
>
> "I read Michael Moore's books. How educated are you?" - Ed Blum
>
> Fuckin dumbass chickenshithawk...
You're out of context, you forked turd-tongue imbecile.
"McGarnagle" <McGarnagle@notospam . com > wrote in message
news:fprq24d1v9hjvud8t0f03fvic7nmmv0cpm@4ax . com ...
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 11:35:39 -0500, "Elvis Kabong"
> <ampscience@tuneland . com > wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I've thought about that too, and almost joined but didn't believe we
>>needed
>>to be in Vietnam at the time.
>
>
> "Almost joined" - Hahahahahahahahaha
>
>
> "I admit, I'm a draft dodger" - Ed Blum
>
> "I read Michael Moore's books. How educated are you?" - Ed Blum
>
> Fuckin dumbass chickenshithawk...
You're out of context, you forked turd-tongue imbecile.
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
Elvis Kabong wrote:
> "McGarnagle" <McGarnagle@notospam . com > wrote in message
> news:fprq24d1v9hjvud8t0f03fvic7nmmv0cpm@4ax . com ...
>> On Thu, 15 May 2008 11:35:39 -0500, "Elvis Kabong"
>> <ampscience@tuneland . com > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I've thought about that too, and almost joined but didn't believe we
>>> needed
>>> to be in Vietnam at the time.
>>
>> "Almost joined" - Hahahahahahahahaha
>>
>>
>> "I admit, I'm a draft dodger" - Ed Blum
>>
>> "I read Michael Moore's books. How educated are you?" - Ed Blum
>>
>> Fuckin dumbass chickenshithawk...
>
> You're out of context, you forked turd-tongue imbecile.
>
>
>
Odd how this went w/out much press notice of any kind...dust in the wind..
* w w w .pr-inside . com /hamilton-jordan-president-carter-s-chief-r600325.htm
Elvis Kabong wrote:
> "McGarnagle" <McGarnagle@notospam . com > wrote in message
> news:fprq24d1v9hjvud8t0f03fvic7nmmv0cpm@4ax . com ...
>> On Thu, 15 May 2008 11:35:39 -0500, "Elvis Kabong"
>> <ampscience@tuneland . com > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I've thought about that too, and almost joined but didn't believe we
>>> needed
>>> to be in Vietnam at the time.
>>
>> "Almost joined" - Hahahahahahahahaha
>>
>>
>> "I admit, I'm a draft dodger" - Ed Blum
>>
>> "I read Michael Moore's books. How educated are you?" - Ed Blum
>>
>> Fuckin dumbass chickenshithawk...
>
> You're out of context, you forked turd-tongue imbecile.
>
>
>
Odd how this went w/out much press notice of any kind...dust in the wind..
* w w w .pr-inside . com /hamilton-jordan-president-carter-s-chief-r600325.htm
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
Claude V. Lucas wrote:
> I've thought for a while now that some sort of public service,
> ala Starship Troopers before being allowed to have a say in
> public affairs wouldn't be a bad idea.
Absolutely--hospital work, conservation, military service, working for the
VA or the National Park Service, social work--take you pick, but something
for the public benefit. Unfortunately today few people consider that for
every right there is a responsibility, the idea of giving up a year or two
for public service would send many people into low orbit.
Claude V. Lucas wrote:
> I've thought for a while now that some sort of public service,
> ala Starship Troopers before being allowed to have a say in
> public affairs wouldn't be a bad idea.
Absolutely--hospital work, conservation, military service, working for the
VA or the National Park Service, social work--take you pick, but something
for the public benefit. Unfortunately today few people consider that for
every right there is a responsibility, the idea of giving up a year or two
for public service would send many people into low orbit.
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
In article <qKednc7HSoBQFbHVnZ2dnUVZ_tXinZ2d@earthlink . com >,
DGDevin <dgdevin@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Claude V. Lucas wrote:
>
>> I've thought for a while now that some sort of public service,
>> ala Starship Troopers before being allowed to have a say in
>> public affairs wouldn't be a bad idea.
>
>Absolutely--hospital work, conservation, military service, working for the
>VA or the National Park Service, social work--take you pick, but something
>for the public benefit. Unfortunately today few people consider that for
>every right there is a responsibility, the idea of giving up a year or two
>for public service would send many people into low orbit.
>
>
Exactly.
As far as I'm concerned something like that would go a long way
towards putting this country on a better course.
In article <qKednc7HSoBQFbHVnZ2dnUVZ_tXinZ2d@earthlink . com >,
DGDevin <dgdevin@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Claude V. Lucas wrote:
>
>> I've thought for a while now that some sort of public service,
>> ala Starship Troopers before being allowed to have a say in
>> public affairs wouldn't be a bad idea.
>
>Absolutely--hospital work, conservation, military service, working for the
>VA or the National Park Service, social work--take you pick, but something
>for the public benefit. Unfortunately today few people consider that for
>every right there is a responsibility, the idea of giving up a year or two
>for public service would send many people into low orbit.
>
>
Exactly.
As far as I'm concerned something like that would go a long way
towards putting this country on a better course.
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
Claude V. Lucas wrote:
> Exactly.
>
> As far as I'm concerned something like that would go a long way
> towards putting this country on a better course.
Think of all the kids who are about to leave highschool (one way or the
other) with lousy employment prospects in front of them and a high risk of
becoming part of the problem. Now picture them spending a couple of years
acquiring job skills (that don't involve risking a felony record) as well as
building character, doing something that will look good on any employment
application--all instead of hanging out waiting to get into trouble.
Whatever it cost to run a program like that, the return in less public money
spent on law enforcement and corrections etc. would make it look cheap.
Anyone who finds the whole concept too barbaric and nationalistic and so on
needs to explain why national service is the way it's still done in many of
those more enlightened nations of Europe, surely if it's good enough for
those folks....
Claude V. Lucas wrote:
> Exactly.
>
> As far as I'm concerned something like that would go a long way
> towards putting this country on a better course.
Think of all the kids who are about to leave highschool (one way or the
other) with lousy employment prospects in front of them and a high risk of
becoming part of the problem. Now picture them spending a couple of years
acquiring job skills (that don't involve risking a felony record) as well as
building character, doing something that will look good on any employment
application--all instead of hanging out waiting to get into trouble.
Whatever it cost to run a program like that, the return in less public money
spent on law enforcement and corrections etc. would make it look cheap.
Anyone who finds the whole concept too barbaric and nationalistic and so on
needs to explain why national service is the way it's still done in many of
those more enlightened nations of Europe, surely if it's good enough for
those folks....
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
DGDevin <dgdevin@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Claude V. Lucas wrote:
>
>> Exactly.
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned something like that would go a long way
>> towards putting this country on a better course.
>
> Think of all the kids who are about to leave highschool (one way or
> the other) with lousy employment prospects in front of them and a
> high risk of becoming part of the problem. Now picture them spending
> a couple of years acquiring job skills (that don't involve risking a
> felony record) as well as building character, doing something that
> will look good on any employment application--all instead of hanging
> out waiting to get into trouble. Whatever it cost to run a program
> like that, the return in less public money spent on law enforcement
> and corrections etc. would make it look cheap. Anyone who finds the
> whole concept too barbaric and nationalistic and so on needs to
> explain why national service is the way it's still done in many of
> those more enlightened nations of Europe, surely if it's good enough
> for those folks....
"Ask not...." -- JFK
DGDevin <dgdevin@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Claude V. Lucas wrote:
>
>> Exactly.
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned something like that would go a long way
>> towards putting this country on a better course.
>
> Think of all the kids who are about to leave highschool (one way or
> the other) with lousy employment prospects in front of them and a
> high risk of becoming part of the problem. Now picture them spending
> a couple of years acquiring job skills (that don't involve risking a
> felony record) as well as building character, doing something that
> will look good on any employment application--all instead of hanging
> out waiting to get into trouble. Whatever it cost to run a program
> like that, the return in less public money spent on law enforcement
> and corrections etc. would make it look cheap. Anyone who finds the
> whole concept too barbaric and nationalistic and so on needs to
> explain why national service is the way it's still done in many of
> those more enlightened nations of Europe, surely if it's good enough
> for those folks....
"Ask not...." -- JFK
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
DGDevin wrote:
> Claude V. Lucas wrote:
>
>> Exactly.
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned something like that would go a long way
>> towards putting this country on a better course.
>
> Think of all the kids who are about to leave highschool (one way or the
> other) with lousy employment prospects in front of them and a high risk of
> becoming part of the problem. Now picture them spending a couple of years
> acquiring job skills (that don't involve risking a felony record) as well as
> building character, doing something that will look good on any employment
> application--all instead of hanging out waiting to get into trouble.
> Whatever it cost to run a program like that, the return in less public money
> spent on law enforcement and corrections etc. would make it look cheap.
> Anyone who finds the whole concept too barbaric and nationalistic and so on
> needs to explain why national service is the way it's still done in many of
> those more enlightened nations of Europe, surely if it's good enough for
> those folks....
>
>
Well, after all we are really just property of the United States
government. They can do what they want with us, right?
--
Les Cargill
DGDevin wrote:
> Claude V. Lucas wrote:
>
>> Exactly.
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned something like that would go a long way
>> towards putting this country on a better course.
>
> Think of all the kids who are about to leave highschool (one way or the
> other) with lousy employment prospects in front of them and a high risk of
> becoming part of the problem. Now picture them spending a couple of years
> acquiring job skills (that don't involve risking a felony record) as well as
> building character, doing something that will look good on any employment
> application--all instead of hanging out waiting to get into trouble.
> Whatever it cost to run a program like that, the return in less public money
> spent on law enforcement and corrections etc. would make it look cheap.
> Anyone who finds the whole concept too barbaric and nationalistic and so on
> needs to explain why national service is the way it's still done in many of
> those more enlightened nations of Europe, surely if it's good enough for
> those folks....
>
>
Well, after all we are really just property of the United States
government. They can do what they want with us, right?
--
Les Cargill
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
Les Cargill wrote:
> Well, after all we are really just property of the United States
> government. They can do what they want with us, right?
Is it an infringement of your rights to be called for jury duty? Do you
reject the entire concept that a citizen has duties in addition to rights?
In your mind is the preferred form of society one in which everyone grabs
everything they can get their hands on and tough luck for everyone else,
devil take the hindmost? Nice.
Les Cargill wrote:
> Well, after all we are really just property of the United States
> government. They can do what they want with us, right?
Is it an infringement of your rights to be called for jury duty? Do you
reject the entire concept that a citizen has duties in addition to rights?
In your mind is the preferred form of society one in which everyone grabs
everything they can get their hands on and tough luck for everyone else,
devil take the hindmost? Nice.
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
DGDevin wrote:
> Les Cargill wrote:
>
>> Well, after all we are really just property of the United States
>> government. They can do what they want with us, right?
>
> Is it an infringement of your rights to be called for jury duty?
For six years? Even two? For what? Gimme a buck. Now gimme
a million bucks. Hey, there's a difference, isn't there?
* members.aol . com /Rayhbanks/bground.html
Do you have any idea just how massive and complete an error
was committed by the United States in participating in WWI,
leading to WWII, leading to... now?
No, you probably don't. Hey, watch this some time:
* w w w .pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/myboyjack/kipling.html
> Do you
> reject the entire concept that a citizen has duties in addition to rights?
Yes. "Duty" is the word people use before they sacrifice you to a
volcano. "But it's your *duty* to go."
> In your mind is the preferred form of society one in which everyone grabs
> everything they can get their hands on and tough luck for everyone else,
> devil take the hindmost?
When you understand that false dichotomy, you will have learned.
> Nice.
>
Look at the budget. Other than Social Security, military service
is *the* largest single subsidy in the United States. It is
the most direct transfer of funds available.
People *want* to serve. And they do. We are not a tribe, and
we don't need anything as primitive as a rite of membership
of the sort tribes use. We are, allegedly, people held together
by adherence to principles grounded in reason.
It is to be noted equally that, under the Powell Doctrine,
the United States military has *roundly* rejected anything
like national service, and in terms of its own best interest.
Forcing people to serve makes shabby their contribution.
Among my family are two retired commander-level Naval officers. Both
adamantly oppose the draft, and for reasons they could go on about for
at least eight hours each.
>
--
Les Cargill
DGDevin wrote:
> Les Cargill wrote:
>
>> Well, after all we are really just property of the United States
>> government. They can do what they want with us, right?
>
> Is it an infringement of your rights to be called for jury duty?
For six years? Even two? For what? Gimme a buck. Now gimme
a million bucks. Hey, there's a difference, isn't there?
* members.aol . com /Rayhbanks/bground.html
Do you have any idea just how massive and complete an error
was committed by the United States in participating in WWI,
leading to WWII, leading to... now?
No, you probably don't. Hey, watch this some time:
* w w w .pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/myboyjack/kipling.html
> Do you
> reject the entire concept that a citizen has duties in addition to rights?
Yes. "Duty" is the word people use before they sacrifice you to a
volcano. "But it's your *duty* to go."
> In your mind is the preferred form of society one in which everyone grabs
> everything they can get their hands on and tough luck for everyone else,
> devil take the hindmost?
When you understand that false dichotomy, you will have learned.
> Nice.
>
Look at the budget. Other than Social Security, military service
is *the* largest single subsidy in the United States. It is
the most direct transfer of funds available.
People *want* to serve. And they do. We are not a tribe, and
we don't need anything as primitive as a rite of membership
of the sort tribes use. We are, allegedly, people held together
by adherence to principles grounded in reason.
It is to be noted equally that, under the Powell Doctrine,
the United States military has *roundly* rejected anything
like national service, and in terms of its own best interest.
Forcing people to serve makes shabby their contribution.
Among my family are two retired commander-level Naval officers. Both
adamantly oppose the draft, and for reasons they could go on about for
at least eight hours each.
>
--
Les Cargill
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
Les Cargill wrote:
>> Is it an infringement of your rights to be called for jury duty?
>
> For six years? Even two? For what? Gimme a buck. Now gimme
> a million bucks. Hey, there's a difference, isn't there?
Oh, so it's the duration that bothers you, you don't object to helping out
just so long as it doesn't seriously inconvenience you.
> Do you have any idea just how massive and complete an error
> was committed by the United States in participating in WWI,
> leading to WWII, leading to... now?
No idea, because that's a basket of moonbeams, neither you nor anyone else
can say with confidence what would have happened if America had not entered
the war. If you wanna play "What if?' you've come to the wrong place.
> Yes. "Duty" is the word people use before they sacrifice you to a
> volcano. "But it's your *duty* to go."
Did you by any chance have a male ancestor who dressed in woman's clothing
to sneak onto a lifeboat as the Titanic sank?
> When you understand that false dichotomy, you will have learned.
In other words you have no answer.
> Look at the budget. Other than Social Security, military service
> is *the* largest single subsidy in the United States. It is
> the most direct transfer of funds available.
Believe it or not but the value of many things cannot be determined only in
financial terms. Every kid who gains social and economic skills doing
national service (or whatever you want to call it) is one less kid who will
end up in jail after a criminal career, one less kid on welfare. Can you
calculate what that might be worth even just in financial terms much less in
social terms? It won't work for everyone, but it's sure worth a shot given
what clearly is not working now.
> People *want* to serve. And they do. We are not a tribe, and
> we don't need anything as primitive as a rite of membership
> of the sort tribes use. We are, allegedly, people held together
> by adherence to principles grounded in reason.
What color was the sky when you woke up this morning, I'm trying to get a
handle on what planet you're posting from. We don't need rites of
membership? Since when? Name a society that doesn't have them. Besides,
wherever you live, within driving range are plenty of people who couldn't
tell you the name of the Sec. of State, who have never read a newspaper, who
have never voted, whose employment prospects range from grim to poor and so
on--do you seriously expect these people to participate on the basis of
their understanding of civics, as if their idea of a good time is a rousing
round-table discussion of the Federalist Papers over cappuccino and
biscotti?
> It is to be noted equally that, under the Powell Doctrine,
> the United States military has *roundly* rejected anything
> like national service, and in terms of its own best interest.
> Forcing people to serve makes shabby their contribution.
So career officers who knew what the govt. wanted to hear have delivered
exactly that, very impressive.
> Among my family are two retired commander-level Naval officers. Both
> adamantly oppose the draft, and for reasons they could go on about for
> at least eight hours each.
I had two uncles who were both captains, shall I relay their thoughts and
feelings since family anecdotes are suddenly so persuasive? You're also
overlooking that I suggested various forms of service, most of them of a
civilian nature. It wouldn't be too hard to use many of them as educational
tools, providing those giving service with on the job training that would
keep them employed in future. If some kid from Bumfuque, Arkansas can do
two years of national service and come out of it with sellable job training,
where exactly is the downside of that? However I admit that the notion of
the children of privilege planting trees or pushing around wheelchairs in a
VA hospital is also kind of attractive, there might be some real valuable
life lessons there as well.
Okay, they were captains in the fire dept., I couldn't keep a straight face
on that one any longer.
Les Cargill wrote:
>> Is it an infringement of your rights to be called for jury duty?
>
> For six years? Even two? For what? Gimme a buck. Now gimme
> a million bucks. Hey, there's a difference, isn't there?
Oh, so it's the duration that bothers you, you don't object to helping out
just so long as it doesn't seriously inconvenience you.
> Do you have any idea just how massive and complete an error
> was committed by the United States in participating in WWI,
> leading to WWII, leading to... now?
No idea, because that's a basket of moonbeams, neither you nor anyone else
can say with confidence what would have happened if America had not entered
the war. If you wanna play "What if?' you've come to the wrong place.
> Yes. "Duty" is the word people use before they sacrifice you to a
> volcano. "But it's your *duty* to go."
Did you by any chance have a male ancestor who dressed in woman's clothing
to sneak onto a lifeboat as the Titanic sank?
> When you understand that false dichotomy, you will have learned.
In other words you have no answer.
> Look at the budget. Other than Social Security, military service
> is *the* largest single subsidy in the United States. It is
> the most direct transfer of funds available.
Believe it or not but the value of many things cannot be determined only in
financial terms. Every kid who gains social and economic skills doing
national service (or whatever you want to call it) is one less kid who will
end up in jail after a criminal career, one less kid on welfare. Can you
calculate what that might be worth even just in financial terms much less in
social terms? It won't work for everyone, but it's sure worth a shot given
what clearly is not working now.
> People *want* to serve. And they do. We are not a tribe, and
> we don't need anything as primitive as a rite of membership
> of the sort tribes use. We are, allegedly, people held together
> by adherence to principles grounded in reason.
What color was the sky when you woke up this morning, I'm trying to get a
handle on what planet you're posting from. We don't need rites of
membership? Since when? Name a society that doesn't have them. Besides,
wherever you live, within driving range are plenty of people who couldn't
tell you the name of the Sec. of State, who have never read a newspaper, who
have never voted, whose employment prospects range from grim to poor and so
on--do you seriously expect these people to participate on the basis of
their understanding of civics, as if their idea of a good time is a rousing
round-table discussion of the Federalist Papers over cappuccino and
biscotti?
> It is to be noted equally that, under the Powell Doctrine,
> the United States military has *roundly* rejected anything
> like national service, and in terms of its own best interest.
> Forcing people to serve makes shabby their contribution.
So career officers who knew what the govt. wanted to hear have delivered
exactly that, very impressive.
> Among my family are two retired commander-level Naval officers. Both
> adamantly oppose the draft, and for reasons they could go on about for
> at least eight hours each.
I had two uncles who were both captains, shall I relay their thoughts and
feelings since family anecdotes are suddenly so persuasive? You're also
overlooking that I suggested various forms of service, most of them of a
civilian nature. It wouldn't be too hard to use many of them as educational
tools, providing those giving service with on the job training that would
keep them employed in future. If some kid from Bumfuque, Arkansas can do
two years of national service and come out of it with sellable job training,
where exactly is the downside of that? However I admit that the notion of
the children of privilege planting trees or pushing around wheelchairs in a
VA hospital is also kind of attractive, there might be some real valuable
life lessons there as well.
Okay, they were captains in the fire dept., I couldn't keep a straight face
on that one any longer.
Re: OT - Jimmy Carter - energy visionary
>
> Believe it or not but the value of many things cannot be determined
> only in financial terms.
Commie.
>
> Believe it or not but the value of many things cannot be determined
> only in financial terms.
Commie.
