Tune Down For Easier Playing

Tune Down For Easier Playing

I was messing with my old battered "take it anywhere" acoustic. I'm
still trying to get the hang of swing style comping. As this guitar
sounds a bit too bright for that style I thought I'll try tuning it
down a semi-tone. We'll that did give it a rounder tone but of-course,
it made it a lot easier to play too.

This made me think. It's commonly suggested that soft fingered
learners may be better with lighter strings but, tuning down a semi-
tone is definitely another option. If your playing with others you can
always use a capo at the first fret to bring your guitar back to
standard pitch.

Cliff

Re: Tune Down For Easier Playing

Cliff wrote:
> ... I'm
> still trying to get the hang of swing style comping...

> ...If your playing with others you can
> always use a capo at the first fret to
> bring your guitar back to
> standard pitch.

If you're swing comping, you almost surely
want moveable barre chords rather than open
chords. No capo needed.


Lumpy

In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com

Re: Tune Down For Easier Playing

On 14 Apr, 15:28, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography . com > wrote:
> Cliff wrote:
> > ... I'm
> > still trying to get the hang of swing style comping...
> > ...If your playing with others you can
> > always use a capo at the first fret to
> > bring your guitar back to
> > standard pitch.
>
> If you're swing comping, you almost surely
> want moveable barre chords rather than open
> chords. No capo needed.
>
> Lumpy
>
> In Your Ears for 40 Years
>  w w w .LumpyMusic . com

Sorry, I'm attempting swing comping. The suggestion was supposed to
apply to any style.

Yep I'm using barre chords and what I call closed chords (movable but
no bar).

You've said before that timing is everything. My attempts at jazz have
definately proved that. I can play major scale modes, The dom 7 alt
scale, a few melodic minor modes, whole tone and dim scales but my
jazz playing sucks. I've got the hang of dom7#5 chords, tritone subs
and a range of extended chords, still suck!

Jazz timing is what I lack so I'm learning to comp. Just basic
patterns with chord stabs both on and off the beat. I would never have
believed it could be so difficult to play just two chord stabs per
bar. I've only just realised how this type of comping relates to the
swing feel of one &, two &, three &, four &. Previously I thought
swing rhythm playing required you to play all eight beats per bar.

Suppose that's the problem with learning from books. If the book
misses out a bit of the picture or you miss a point, you can be stuck
with the wrong idea for years. Any way, I'll be playing my new comping
rhythms through the few jazz tunes I know and, hopefully I'll get a
better feel for the off beat. I'm also gonna try playing along with a
few tunes. Do you think tracks like So What and Freddie Freeloader are
suitable or would I be better with standards like Satin Doll?

Talk about going off topic ;-) Cliff

Re: Tune Down For Easier Playing

If you are swing comping, what you want are the 3 note Freddy Green
shell voicings.

Barre chords would be too much hassle, and too many notes. I assume
you are using these shell 7th chord voicings Cliff?

Re: Tune Down For Easier Playing

On 14 Apr, 16:50, Derek <de...@ycoaoffice . com > wrote:
> If you are swing comping, what you want are the 3 note Freddy Green
> shell voicings.
>
> Barre chords would be too much hassle, and too many notes.  I assume
> you are using these shell 7th chord voicings Cliff?

Hi Derek,

I could be causing confusion with my terninology. I'm not working on
four to the bar Freddie Green style swing. This is more the 1960's
small group style. A chord on one then a chord on the "& of two" or
may be: a chord on the "& of one" then, the "& of three".

I'm OK with three note voicings (1,3,7) rooted on the 5th or 6th
strings. Based on what I've read and heard, it seems both these short
chords and larger extended voicings are used for the style I'm working
on. I think Kenny Burrel's Midnight Blue may be an example of the
style I mean. Not big band swing more, small group with a swinging
groove. Is there a better name for this style?

My aim is to improve my feel for jazz timing and, develop a good
comping style to make simple backing tracks over which I can play
heads and solos.

Cheers, Cliff

Re: Tune Down For Easier Playing

I think that is a fine term for it. Charleston rhythm is probably the
most ubiquitous of those types of strums.

The question is are you the only polyphonic instrument? If so, then
you can pretty much do whatever you want.

If there is another player, then the shell voicings keep you from
stepping on his toes musically.

The other nice aspect about those shells, is it is very easy to see
#5, #9, b5, b9, etc, extensions to add occassionally.

Sounds like a great exercise. I do this with BIAB when a tune is new
to me.

Re: Tune Down For Easier Playing

On 14 Apr, 17:26, Derek <de...@ycoaoffice . com > wrote:
> I think that is a fine term for it.  Charleston rhythm is probably the
> most ubiquitous of those types of strums.

Yes I've just found out about the Charleston rhythm. Found some
details of variations on this and other patterns so I'm working
through those.
>
> The question is are you the only polyphonic instrument?  If so, then
> you can pretty much do whatever you want.

Aiming to make myself some backing tracks to play over so, I'll be the
only polyphonic instrument. Also want to learn the sounds of the
different extended/altered chords.

>
> If there is another player, then the shell voicings keep you from
> stepping on his toes musically.
>
> The other nice aspect about those shells, is it is very easy to see
> #5, #9, b5, b9, etc, extensions to add occassionally.

The shell voicing thing is very useful. I can play the basic shapes
but I do need to try adding a few more extensions. Everything in
time ;-)

>
> Sounds like a great exercise.  I do this with BIAB when a tune is new
> to me.

Cheers, Derek

Re: Tune Down For Easier Playing

Cliff wrote:
> I'm OK with three note voicings (1,3,7)
> rooted on the 5th or 6th
> strings...

What kind of orchestration or setting?
Combo with a bass instrument or are you
playing duo style?

If another instrument is bassing, I'd either
try and index the chord on a higher root
(not 6th or 5th string) or leave the root
out entirely.

That being said, I don't consider myself a
very natural comp'er in a combo setting. I've
always been around pianos in combos and those
guys can comp their asses off, while playing
bass, talking on their cellphone and ordering
a salad.

When I'm playing duo-style, like Craig and Heather,
I'm (these days) thinking like 4 instruments.
Bass on 6 and 5 strings, comp on 4 and 3, and
stabs/embelishments in the highest voices (2 and 1).
Then I've got to do some kind or rhythmic/percussive
thing to simulate a drummer.

I didn't always divide the harmonic parts into
bass/comp/stabs. I used to think of it in two
parts, bass/comp. But the more parts I try and
simulate, the less convincing I have to be with
any of them individually. Example, guitar simulating
upright bass will never really sound like upright bass.
But every few notes maybe I can do something that sounds
a lot like URB to you, the listener. When it DOESN't
sound so convincing, I hope that something like the
comping (or the Chick singer) takes it's place in the
spotlight.

The entire arrangement is a continuous trading off of
"spotlight" parts by the various "band members" in my
two hands and one guitar. It works that way for any
style. It's just more dramatic as a solo guitar
exercise, playing recognizable songs.

> Do you think tracks like So What and Freddie Freeloader are
> suitable or would I be better with standards like Satin Doll?

You could theoretically swing any tune if you
just changed every pair of 8ths to tie/single triplets.
If you're going to play along with a recording,
I think the "suitable" factor would simply be
if the record is in swing feel or not.

Satin Doll is typically done 100% swing in the melody.
If you're comping while another section is doing
that, you'd likely NOT want to be stabbing chords
on the swing 8ths. Count Basie, Freddy style would
likely allow that swing to happen.

My advice for comper's, listen to piano players.
Then play the melody and leave the 7 note chords
to them.

Lumpy

In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com

Re: Tune Down For Easier Playing

On 14 Apr, 19:20, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography . com > wrote:
> Cliff wrote:
> > I'm OK with three note voicings (1,3,7)
> > rooted on the 5th or 6th
> > strings...
>
> What kind of orchestration or setting?
> Combo with a bass instrument or are you
> playing duo style?

This is me duo style with me. Record a backing track then play over
it.
>
> If another instrument is bassing, I'd either
> try and index the chord on a higher root
> (not 6th or 5th string) or leave the root
> out entirely.
>
> That being said, I don't consider myself a
> very natural comp'er in a combo setting. I've
> always been around pianos in combos and those
> guys can comp their asses off, while playing
> bass, talking on their cellphone and ordering
> a salad.

Last night I was trying to play along with Freddie Freeloader on the
Kind Of Blue album. As you say, the piano is definately the instrument
to listen to. I'm gonna work on that tune and may be even copy the
first piano solo. It's a straight blues with just the one bVIIdom7 for
interest. As the chords are simple I can just concerntrate on the
timing thing.

>
> When I'm playing duo-style, like Craig and Heather,
> I'm (these days) thinking like 4 instruments.
> Bass on 6 and 5 strings, comp on 4 and 3, and
> stabs/embelishments in the highest voices (2 and 1).
> Then I've got to do some kind or rhythmic/percussive
> thing to simulate a drummer.
>
> I didn't always divide the harmonic parts into
> bass/comp/stabs. I used to think of it in two
> parts, bass/comp. But the more parts I try and
> simulate, the less convincing I have to be with
> any of them individually. Example, guitar simulating
> upright bass will never really sound like upright bass.
> But every few notes maybe I can do something that sounds
> a lot like URB to you, the listener. When it DOESN't
> sound so convincing, I hope that something like the
> comping (or the Chick singer) takes it's place in the
> spotlight.

I see you seperate comp and stab. I think I need to do something
similar with my recording. I recorded some chords then played over
them. I found the rhythm of the chords didn't compliment the lead
lines so I re-recorded the backing rhythm. If I played a less fancy
rhythm track, added lead lines then added stabs, it would probably
work much better. That way I could make the stabs compliment the lead
lines.

See I could be playing everything you play. Just I'll be doing it in
three seperate tracks and probably a few takes on each track :o)
>
> The entire arrangement is a continuous trading off of
> "spotlight" parts by the various "band members" in my
> two hands and one guitar. It works that way for any
> style. It's just more dramatic as a solo guitar
> exercise, playing recognizable songs.

I really like the solo style where the player mixes bass, runs stabs
and little single note runs. Some players can do something similar
with a pick. I try and play around with that style sometimes however,
I really need to get the basic right first ;-)

>
> > Do you think tracks like So What and Freddie Freeloader are
> > suitable or would I be better with standards like Satin Doll?
>
> You could theoretically swing any tune if you
> just changed every pair of 8ths to tie/single triplets.
> If you're going to play along with a recording,
> I think the "suitable" factor would simply be
> if the record is in swing feel or not.

I knew that was a stupid questuon :-)

>
> Satin Doll is typically done 100% swing in the melody.
> If you're comping while another section is doing
> that, you'd likely NOT want to be stabbing chords
> on the swing 8ths. Count Basie, Freddy style would
> likely allow that swing to happen.

Ah, now that's interesting.

>
> My advice for comper's, listen to piano players.
> Then play the melody and leave the 7 note chords
> to them.
>
> Lumpy
>
> In Your Ears for 40 Years
>  w w w .LumpyMusic . com

Thanks for the advice. I'm a little reluctant to ask questions about
this sort of music. Not really beginners stuff but, I know you and
Derek usually have the answers.

Thanks again, Cliff

Re: Tune Down For Easier Playing

Down tuning is usually coupled with a heavier gauge string.
If you downtune and use the same gauge string, the neck will have less
tension.
The strings will be closer to the neck, and may need a truss rod
adjustment to get rid of fret buzz.

If you change string gauge , you may need a truss rod adjustment.
A thicker string will wear a bigger groove in the nut, and then you
will need a nut replacement if you return to a smaller gauge string

The heavier strings
1 last longer
2. holds a tune better
3. may have a richer fuller tonal quality, especially when
downtuned
4. Is harder to bend they are stiffer
5. A bend will chane tone with less stretching.
6. Popular in rock guitar
7. Light gauge strings are popular with blues players
8. might hold a sustain longer

Beginners typically go for light weight strings, easier on tender
finger tips.
Beginners also prefer flexible picks. The light picks don't dig into
the strings as hard, a problem when learning.

As your fingers toughen up, and you gain more control the natural
tendency is to go with a heavy pick and heavier strings..
Since the heavier strings are stiff, they are then downtuned a half
or a full step, this makes them easier on the fingers, and more
bendable.

The new American Stratocasters use a dual truss rod. this puts a
degree of twist into the neck, so the hand position remains
comfortable when playing notes higher then fret 15.
They are reported to be a problem to adjust unless you know how.
The guitar is difficult to tune because of the neck twist and truss
rod adjusting. If you need to tune only one string, you have to adjust
all six , to maintain the balance.
So I was told anyway by a Luthier.

Pholtron
(Go-Bot)
<--====-->

All learning -
begins in darknesssssss,
and ends, in the lighttttt.

Re: Tune Down For Easier Playing

On 15 Apr, 11:47, Pholtron <To...@istheday . com > wrote:
> Down tuning is usually coupled with a heavier gauge string.
> If you downtune and use the same gauge string, the neck will have less
> tension.
> The  strings will be  closer to the neck, and may need a truss rod
> adjustment to  get rid of fret buzz.

Yep, reducing the string tension can cause buzzes. Luckily not much of
a problem with the medium action on my guitar.
>
> If you change  string gauge , you may need a truss rod adjustment.
> A thicker  string will wear a bigger  groove in the  nut, and then y=
ou
> will need a nut replacement if you return to a smaller gauge  string

True in theory though, I've never had a problem going up or down one
string gauge. May be more of an issue if you like a very low action.

>
> The heavier  strings
>    1  last longer
>    2. holds a tune better
>    3. may have a richer  fuller tonal quality, especially when
> downtuned
>    4. Is harder to bend they are stiffer
>    5. A bend will chane tone with less stretching.
>    6. Popular in rock guitar
>    7. Light gauge strings are popular with blues  players
>    8. might hold a sustain longer
>
> Beginners  typically go for light weight  strings, easier on  tender=

> finger tips.
> Beginners also prefer flexible  picks. The  light picks don't dig into=

> the  strings as hard, a problem when learning.
>
> As your fingers  toughen up, and you  gain  more  control  the n=
atural
> tendency is to go with a heavy pick and heavier  strings..
> Since the heavier strings are  stiff, they are then  downtuned a half
> or a full step, this makes them easier on the  fingers, and  more
> bendable.

This is mostly true however, many people use heavy strings without
tuning down. I've got 11's on two of my guitars with 25.5" scale
lengths and both are usually at standard tuned.

>
> The new American Stratocasters use a dual truss rod. this puts a
> degree of twist into the  neck, so the hand position  remains
> comfortable when playing notes higher then  fret 15.

Are you sure they intentionally put a twist in the neck? I've heard
that, some truss rod systems, which use two rods, can be used to
remove a small twist from a neck.

> They are reported to be a problem to adjust unless you know how.
> The guitar is difficult to  tune  because of the  neck twist and tru=
ss
> rod adjusting. If you need to tune only one string, you have to adjust
> all six , to maintain the  balance.
> So I was told anyway by a  Luthier.

This sounds like the common problem with any guitar that's fitted with
a floating tremelo bridge.

>
>  Pholtron
>  (Go-Bot)
> <--====-->
>
> All learning -
>  begins in darknesssssss,
>  and ends, in the lighttttt.

Your right, reducing string tension can give you a few problems.
However, the problems are very similar to those caused by fitting
lighter strings. It's just another option :-)

All the best, Cliff

Re: Tune Down For Easier Playing

Pholtron wrote:

> The new American Stratocasters use a dual truss rod. this puts a
> degree of twist into the neck, so the hand position remains
> comfortable when playing notes higher then fret 15.
> They are reported to be a problem to adjust unless you know how.

I would hazard to say that the same is true of single truss rods.
Indeed, "knowing how" simplifies a myriad of tasks in this life.

Re: Tune Down For Easier Playing

Pholtron wrote:
> The new American Stratocasters use a dual truss rod.
> this puts a degree of twist into the neck, so the
> hand position remains comfortable...

Could you cite a reference to that? I'm not
aware of any Strats with dual truss rods.

Nor am I aware of any Fender or other guitar that
imparts a deliberate twist into the neck using any
kind of truss rod. That would be a horrible way to
achieve a deliberate fingerboard angle change.

Even dual rod Ric's and Guilds
don't deliberately impart twist.

Milling the fingerboard would be the
accepted practice and is done for
a lot of guitars I've known.

Lumpy

In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com

Re: Tune Down For Easier Playing

Lumpy expounded in news:66mqd3F2ku6ibU1@mid.individual . net :

> Pholtron wrote:
>> The new American Stratocasters use a dual truss rod.
>> this puts a degree of twist into the neck, so the
>> hand position remains comfortable...
>
> Could you cite a reference to that? I'm not
> aware of any Strats with dual truss rods.
>
> Lumpy

Its found on strats with dual exhaust pipes.

Snark.
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