Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

I am using the software "GNU Solgefe" for ear training development.

I started with a basic exercise (Software plays an ascending melodic
interval and I must choose whether it's a perfect fourth or perfect
fifth).

I was having trouble distinguishing a fourth from a fifth.

Then, I related the ascending melodic interval perfect fourth to the
song "Amazing Grace".
That seems to be working (I now usually score 100%).

Now, I am trying identifying descending melodic interval (again 2
pitches -- perfect fourth or perfect fifth) but am having trouble.

I tried reversing the pitches in my mind and relate it to "Amazing
Grace" but that was too difficult.
Maybe I need another song clue for the descending perfect fourth. Is
there a familiar song for this?

Also, is this technique of associating a song to the interval OK (is
it a crutch?), or is there a better approach?

Thanks.

-- Ravi

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

On 21 Apr 2008, Ravi <Raul . fr emont@gmail . com > wrote in
alt.guitar.beginner:

> I tried reversing the pitches in my mind and relate it to
> "Amazing Grace" but that was too difficult. Maybe I need another
> song clue for the descending perfect fourth. Is there a familiar
> song for this?
>
> Also, is this technique of associating a song to the interval OK
> (is it a crutch?), or is there a better approach?

Nothing wrong with this approach, it's very common and quite
effective. Here are some more examples of intervals:

* en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ear_training

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

Ravi wrote:
> I was having trouble distinguishing a fourth from a fifth.
>
> Then, I related the ascending melodic interval perfect fourth to the
> song "Amazing Grace".
> That seems to be working (I now usually score 100%).
>
> Now, I am trying identifying descending melodic interval (again 2
> pitches -- perfect fourth or perfect fifth) but am having trouble.
>
> I tried reversing the pitches in my mind and relate it to "Amazing
> Grace" but that was too difficult.
> Maybe I need another song clue for the descending perfect fourth. Is
> there a familiar song for this?

Every professional singer I've ever known
does exactly that to memorize intervals.

I could, or anyone else could, suggest songs
that have 5ths or 4ths or any other interval.
But the whole point of the approach is to use
songs that YOU are intimately familiar with.
So you have to pick the songs rather than
use my examples, or someone else's examples.

How about simply taking the first two notes
of several songs you already know. Figure out
what their intervals are. Then YOU will have
familiar songs to use to find your intervals.

Be sure to do them ascending as well as
descending.

Ascending P4 is "Amazing Grace" or
"When Johnny Comes Marching [home again]"
or "Never on Sunday". Or for a lot of guitarists,
it's the sound of almost any two strings open.

Ascending Octave is "Some-Where [over the rainbow].

Ascending minor 3 is the first two notes to Stairway.

Descending min 3rd is "Look At [me, I'm as helpless...]"
(Misty).

Ascending Maj 3 is the first two notes to
"Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy"

Ascending Aug4/dim5th is "Maria" from West Side Story.

Descending P4 is the first two notes to the orig
Star Trek theme.

Think up your own examples so that the song is
so familiar to you, you don't have to think
about it to reference it.


Lumpy

In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

Lumpy expounded in news:673qosF2n2mitU1@mid.individual . net :

> Ravi wrote:
>> I was having trouble distinguishing a fourth from a fifth.
>>
>> Then, I related the ascending melodic interval perfect fourth to the
>> song "Amazing Grace".
>> That seems to be working (I now usually score 100%).
>
> Every professional singer I've ever known
> does exactly that to memorize intervals.
..
> How about simply taking the first two notes
> of several songs you already know. Figure out
> what their intervals are. Then YOU will have
> familiar songs to use to find your intervals.
>
> Lumpy

Someone here about a year or so ago, was assembling a "whole database of
songs suitable for that purpose." A suitable google of google groups
will turn up those entries. Perhaps the search words "database" and
"intervals" is enough to get you started.

In terms of memory tricks, it doesn't even have to be songs you know. My
teach had me learn a descending minor 3rd with the word "Bill-y". It
might not even be a song, but it works. I've never had trouble
remembering it and I've never had to memorize it. Just food for thought.

Snark.
** Posted from * w w w .teranews . com **

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

Charmed Snark wrote:
> In terms of memory tricks, it doesn't even have to be songs you know.
> My teach had me learn a descending minor 3rd with the word "Bill-y".
> It might not even be a song, but it works. I've never had trouble
> remembering it and I've never had to memorize it. Just food for
> thought.

We have some birds at our place that make
a sound like
"Whale-Poop...Whale-Poop...Whale-Poop"

It's a descending P5.


Lumpy

In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:10:56 -0700, "Lumpy"
<lumpy@digitalcartography . com > wrote:

>Charmed Snark wrote:
>> In terms of memory tricks, it doesn't even have to be songs you know.
>> My teach had me learn a descending minor 3rd with the word "Bill-y".
>> It might not even be a song, but it works. I've never had trouble
>> remembering it and I've never had to memorize it. Just food for
>> thought.
>
>We have some birds at our place that make
>a sound like
>"Whale-Poop...Whale-Poop...Whale-Poop"
>
>It's a descending P5.
>
>
>Lumpy
>
>In Your Ears for 40 Years
> w w w .LumpyMusic . com
>

I'll have to figure out what interval my backyard "cheese-burger" bird
uses.

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

Lumpy expounded in news:674e7uF2mrqulU1@mid.individual . net :

> Charmed Snark wrote:
>> In terms of memory tricks, it doesn't even have to be songs you know.
>> My teach had me learn a descending minor 3rd with the word "Bill-y".
>> It might not even be a song, but it works. I've never had trouble
>> remembering it and I've never had to memorize it. Just food for
>> thought.
>
> We have some birds at our place that make
> a sound like
> "Whale-Poop...Whale-Poop...Whale-Poop"
>
> It's a descending P5.
>
> Lumpy

Come to think of it we have some backyard birds that do the
descending minor 3rd, in some sort of a whistle-- perhaps
they're all singing "Bill-y".

Whale poop? What kind of wildlife do you have there?! What I remember
most of my trip to Pheonix was that swarm of locusts that splatted on my
face (open-faced helmet) when I rented a dirt bike for the trails.

Snark.
** Posted from * w w w .teranews . com **

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

Major 6th =

My BONNIE lies over the ocean...

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

googledawg wrote:
> Major 6th =
>
> My BONNIE lies over the ocean...

Ascending Maj 6, descending Maj 3...
(or the degrees V III I of C Maj).

NBC, the signature tones from the
National Broadcasting Company.

When they first started, their major sponsor
was General Electric Corporation. Whenever
they'd do a station ID, they'd sound the
three tones G E C (first letters of
the Major sponsor).


Lumpy

In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

On 22 Apr 2008, "Lumpy" <lumpy@digitalcartography . com > wrote in
alt.guitar.beginner:

> Ascending Maj 6, descending Maj 3...
> (or the degrees V III I of C Maj).
>
> NBC, the signature tones from the
> National Broadcasting Company.
>
> When they first started, their major sponsor
> was General Electric Corporation. Whenever
> they'd do a station ID, they'd sound the
> three tones G E C (first letters of
> the Major sponsor).

* home . com cast . net /~esionder/temp/NBC_Song.mp3

There's some dispute about the origin of the NBC chimes. Here's
everything you ever wanted to know about them and more (follow the
"A History of the NBC Chimes" link.

* w w w .radioremembered.org/

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

On Apr 21, 7:50 am, Ravi <Raul . fr em...@gmail . com > wrote:

> Maybe I need another song clue for the descending perfect fourth. Is
> there a familiar song for this?


If you know the folksong "Clementine," that's what I use.

--Cliff (US)

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 04:50:28 -0700 (PDT), Ravi
<Raul . fr emont@gmail . com > wrote:

>I am using the software "GNU Solgefe" for ear training development.
>
>I started with a basic exercise (Software plays an ascending melodic
>interval and I must choose whether it's a perfect fourth or perfect
>fifth).
>
>I was having trouble distinguishing a fourth from a fifth.
>
>Then, I related the ascending melodic interval perfect fourth to the
>song "Amazing Grace".
>That seems to be working (I now usually score 100%).
>
>Now, I am trying identifying descending melodic interval (again 2
>pitches -- perfect fourth or perfect fifth) but am having trouble.
>
>I tried reversing the pitches in my mind and relate it to "Amazing
>Grace" but that was too difficult.
>Maybe I need another song clue for the descending perfect fourth. Is
>there a familiar song for this?
>
>Also, is this technique of associating a song to the interval OK (is
>it a crutch?), or is there a better approach?
>
>Thanks.
>
>-- Ravi

Glad to hear from someone who is also doing that,
we seem 5to be at a similar stage in ear training

I have had the same problem
The guitar is tuned around the perfect 4ths and 5ths

for any root note"
- the 5th is one string lower(bass), at the same fret
- the perfect 4th is one string higher(treble)
- exception is the G-B string the B string is one half step flat.



5th-root-4th all line up on the same fret.
E A D G B e
-----------------------nut
F A# D# 1st fret

G C F 3rd fret

It depends upon which is the root, or the lower (more bass) note

for example

he C to G interval is a perfect 5th C being a more bass note
however
The G to C interval is a perfect 4th G being a more bass note
The G to D interval is the perfect 5th
Athough G is the 5th of C , it has to be seven 1/2 steps higher, to
be the perfect 5th
An ascending perfect 5th of C is G

I get confused, still over
Descending 5ths actually being perfect 4ths as in
F to C is a perf 5th
but C to F is perf 4th

A bunch of silly terminology ,
But IT HELPS US LEARN TO HEAR THE INTERVAL.

The 5th, to me sounds, more harmoneous
The 4th ,to me sounds, to be clashing just a bit

When you tune up the guitar and bring one string to the same note, as
the other string, 5th fret, you can hear the frequencies begin to
warble, or vibrate together rapidly as the strings approach the
same tone, that warble (amplitude variation, due to the peaks and
valleys of the sound waves interacting) begins to slow down as the
waves overlap, and the string comes into tune
.
On a perf 4th, I can hear a very fast vibration of the two tones ,
not matching up very well
On a perf 5th, there is only a minor very fast warble, it is almost
not there.

Another thing I noticed, if I sing the two notes La - La (root -5th)
the 5th is a stretch for my voice to go that much higher.

whereas the root to the 4th, is much easiewr to hit La - La

Singing the interval is a good way to help you distinguish.
If you can sing the interval you can hear it better,.???

And so your trick with Amazing grace, is a mental way of singing
I love ear training, it has improved my playing skill.
Especially in Bending a string, how far to bend it. how fast to bend
it.
My bends had been sounding like a "cat in heat".
But lately, they have taken on a very smooth and sweet sound ,
because of ear training.

I have put my ear training aside for a few days, loearning some Floyd
songs, but need to keep on it.
When it gets hard , I don't care to do it as much, but that is when I
should dig in deeper, and really work it out.
Once you getit , it won't go away.

Good to read you post, I can really relate .


Pholtron
(Go-Bot)
<--====-->

All learning -
begins in darknesssssss,
and ends, in the lighttttt.

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

Pholtron wrote:
> I get confused, still over
> Descending 5ths actually being perfect 4ths as in
> F to C is a perf 5th
> but C to F is perf 4th

I think that's a common confusion.
Consider this comparison...

The alphabet has 26 letters.
C is the third letter HIGHER than A.
But it's the 25th letter LOWER than A.

Three and 25 don't add up to 26.
It's not like a number line. It's not base ten
and the sum of the parts don't equal the whole.

The problem is that we try and look at musical
intervals as if they were a number line. It doesn't
work that way. The "numbers" 3rds, 5ths etc aren't
absolute numbers like the number three or five are.
With numbers, we say "three bananas" or "five girls".
But with musical intervals we have to relate that
number to something else. We relate it to the other
note in the interval. A to C is a minor 3rd.
G to B and D# to F# are also minor 3rds. But they
aren't "three" of anything absolute.

It all makes sense once you come to grips
with Sweet Home Alabama.

Lumpy

In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

Thanks to everyone for responses and suggestions. I will look for
familiar songs to aid in melodic interval identification.

I must have listened to the Flinstones theme a million times, but
until now, I have never thought of associating it with a descending
P5!


On Apr 21, 5:57 pm, Pholtron <To...@istheday . com > wrote:

> On a perf 4th, I can hear a very fast vibration of the two tones ,
> not matching up very well
> On a perf 5th, there is only a minor very fast warble, it is almost
> not there.

It's good you are able to hear that. I will also try to look for that.

I guess the above applies only to harmonic intervals (both notes ring
out together) and not to melodic intervals where the notes ring out
seperately (no overlap).

>
> Another thing I noticed, if I sing the two notes La - La (root -5th)
> the 5th is a stretch for my voice to go that much higher.
>
> whereas the root to the 4th, is much easiewr to hit La - La

Yes, but it's better to gain an understanding of the inherent
characteristics
of the interval rather than associating a physical body sensation
(vocal cord tension), especially since one will not be able to sing in
all the frequencies in which the P4 and P5 intervals occur.

>
> Singing the interval is a good way to help you distinguish.
> If you can sing the interval you can hear it better,.???

Yes. Singing the interval will definitely make you hear it better.
Singing it really internalizes it much more so than playing it with
the fingers.

Other notes:

My original approach was to simply listen to the ascending melodic
interval and try to identify some distinguishing characteristic
between P4 and P5 intervals (no song associations), but I was making
many errors.

Adding song association was like an instant fix. "Amazing Grace"
helped me identify an ascending P4 every time.

Although, it looks like the Solfege program is using the same note
durations for the melodic interval exercises... I might have to try a
program that varies the note durations.

I suspect I will still make errors identifying ascending P4's if the
note durations are very different from the "Amazing Grace"
reference .

I am not arguing against using song association. I will use it as I
do not have a good ear.

Just making the observation, that ideally, one should be able to
identify the interval in and of themselves without reference to a
song, or reference to

Re: Ear Training help. Identifying melodic interval: perfect fourth descending.

Ravi wrote:
> Just making the observation, that
> ideally, one should be able to
> identify the interval in and of
> themselves without reference to a
> song...

Technically speaking, that is impossible.
If you are identifying an interval, you
are relating that to some prior knowledge
of that interval. You might be doing it
consciously or unconsciously. But one way
or another, it has to be referenced to
something you've heard before.

All of that aside, why is it that you think
"Idealy, one should be able to identify...
without ref to a song"?

Why do you think it's less than ideal to
ref it to a song?

Music IS songs.


Lumpy

In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com