Add group to favorites
Back to post list
Send new message to group Search:
Post Subject:
Finding Beat One of the song.
Finding Beat One of the song.
Pop music songs will typically be in 4/4 time.
Eighth note count:
One and Two and Three and Four and One and Two ...
Beat One and Beat Three are emphasized.
Beat One has more emphasis than Beat Three.
Beat Three and Beat Four are not emphasized and are equally weak.
Using these guides, one should be able to find Beat One of the song?
Pop music songs will typically be in 4/4 time.
Eighth note count:
One and Two and Three and Four and One and Two ...
Beat One and Beat Three are emphasized.
Beat One has more emphasis than Beat Three.
Beat Three and Beat Four are not emphasized and are equally weak.
Using these guides, one should be able to find Beat One of the song?
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
On 1 May, 12:14, Ravi <Raul,fr em...@gmail,com > wrote:
> Pop music songs will typically be in 4/4 time.
>
> Eighth note count:
>
> One and Two and Three and Four and One and Two ...
>
> Beat One and Beat Three are emphasized.
> Beat One has more emphasis than Beat Three.
> Beat Three and Beat Four are not emphasized and are equally weak.
>
> Using these guides, one should be able to find Beat One of the song?
IMO this is true but you do need to be carefull which instruments you
are listening to. The extreme example would be reggae guitar. In a lot
of music styles the drums and the bass fix in on the ONE two THREE
four feel but, the guitar emphasizes the two and four or even an off
beat. Its hitting off beats that makes music swing.
There can even be some confusion with drums. In rock the bass drum is
often on the one and three beats while the snare is on the two and
four. Unless your listening through a good bassy music system, the
snare often stands out more.
It is very worth while taking to time think about timing. Good timing
is the thing that makes simple licks sound a million dollars.
Cliff
On 1 May, 12:14, Ravi <Raul,fr em...@gmail,com > wrote:
> Pop music songs will typically be in 4/4 time.
>
> Eighth note count:
>
> One and Two and Three and Four and One and Two ...
>
> Beat One and Beat Three are emphasized.
> Beat One has more emphasis than Beat Three.
> Beat Three and Beat Four are not emphasized and are equally weak.
>
> Using these guides, one should be able to find Beat One of the song?
IMO this is true but you do need to be carefull which instruments you
are listening to. The extreme example would be reggae guitar. In a lot
of music styles the drums and the bass fix in on the ONE two THREE
four feel but, the guitar emphasizes the two and four or even an off
beat. Its hitting off beats that makes music swing.
There can even be some confusion with drums. In rock the bass drum is
often on the one and three beats while the snare is on the two and
four. Unless your listening through a good bassy music system, the
snare often stands out more.
It is very worth while taking to time think about timing. Good timing
is the thing that makes simple licks sound a million dollars.
Cliff
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
On May 1, 4:53 am, Cliff <cl...@wheatleymetalfabrications.co.uk>
wrote:
> On 1 May, 12:14, Ravi <Raul,fr em...@gmail,com > wrote:
>
> > Pop music songs will typically be in 4/4 time.
>
> > Eighth note count:
>
> > One and Two and Three and Four and One and Two ...
>
> > Beat One and Beat Three are emphasized.
> > Beat One has more emphasis than Beat Three.
> > Beat Three and Beat Four are not emphasized and are equally weak.
>
> > Using these guides, one should be able to find Beat One of the song?
>
> IMO this is true but you do need to be carefull which instruments you
> are listening to. The extreme example would be reggae guitar. In a lot
> of music styles the drums and the bass fix in on the ONE two THREE
> four feel but, the guitar emphasizes the two and four or even an off
> beat. Its hitting off beats that makes music swing.
>
> There can even be some confusion with drums. In rock the bass drum is
> often on the one and three beats while the snare is on the two and
> four. Unless your listening through a good bassy music system, the
> snare often stands out more.
>
> It is very worth while taking to time think about timing. Good timing
> is the thing that makes simple licks sound a million dollars.
>
If possible, I want to understand the rhythm within the context of
melody only (no instrumental accompaniment). For example, if someone
were
to just sing a melody in 4/4 time, would that imply which beats are
stressed?
Other comments:
When I strum a chord for a measure, it definitely feels good to
stress beat one.
After that, it would make sense not to follow a strong beat with
another strong beat .
So the strong/weak/strong/weak pattern seems sensible.
As for which songs stress beat 1 and 3.
To me, "Stairway to Heaven" , "Memories (The Way We Were)" sounds like
the stress is on beat 1 and 3.
In a lot of rock music (maybe most, I'll have to listen and clap
along), the stress is on the "backbeat" (beats 3 and 4).
So it seems the 4/4 time signature only designates the number of
beats per measure and how the beats are divided -- not which beats are
stressed.
So is it up to the songwriter to specify which beat is stressed?
http :// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncopation
In music, syncopation is a stress on a normally unstressed beat, or a
missing beat where a stressed one would normally be expected.
Syncopation is used in many musical styles and is fundamental in such
styles as funk, reggae, ragtime, rap, jump blues, jazz and often in
dubstep, progressive metal, and classical music. In the form of a back
beat, syncopation is used in virtually all contemporary popular music.
On May 1, 4:53 am, Cliff <cl...@wheatleymetalfabrications.co.uk>
wrote:
> On 1 May, 12:14, Ravi <Raul,fr em...@gmail,com > wrote:
>
> > Pop music songs will typically be in 4/4 time.
>
> > Eighth note count:
>
> > One and Two and Three and Four and One and Two ...
>
> > Beat One and Beat Three are emphasized.
> > Beat One has more emphasis than Beat Three.
> > Beat Three and Beat Four are not emphasized and are equally weak.
>
> > Using these guides, one should be able to find Beat One of the song?
>
> IMO this is true but you do need to be carefull which instruments you
> are listening to. The extreme example would be reggae guitar. In a lot
> of music styles the drums and the bass fix in on the ONE two THREE
> four feel but, the guitar emphasizes the two and four or even an off
> beat. Its hitting off beats that makes music swing.
>
> There can even be some confusion with drums. In rock the bass drum is
> often on the one and three beats while the snare is on the two and
> four. Unless your listening through a good bassy music system, the
> snare often stands out more.
>
> It is very worth while taking to time think about timing. Good timing
> is the thing that makes simple licks sound a million dollars.
>
If possible, I want to understand the rhythm within the context of
melody only (no instrumental accompaniment). For example, if someone
were
to just sing a melody in 4/4 time, would that imply which beats are
stressed?
Other comments:
When I strum a chord for a measure, it definitely feels good to
stress beat one.
After that, it would make sense not to follow a strong beat with
another strong beat .
So the strong/weak/strong/weak pattern seems sensible.
As for which songs stress beat 1 and 3.
To me, "Stairway to Heaven" , "Memories (The Way We Were)" sounds like
the stress is on beat 1 and 3.
In a lot of rock music (maybe most, I'll have to listen and clap
along), the stress is on the "backbeat" (beats 3 and 4).
So it seems the 4/4 time signature only designates the number of
beats per measure and how the beats are divided -- not which beats are
stressed.
So is it up to the songwriter to specify which beat is stressed?
http :// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncopation
In music, syncopation is a stress on a normally unstressed beat, or a
missing beat where a stressed one would normally be expected.
Syncopation is used in many musical styles and is fundamental in such
styles as funk, reggae, ragtime, rap, jump blues, jazz and often in
dubstep, progressive metal, and classical music. In the form of a back
beat, syncopation is used in virtually all contemporary popular music.
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
On 06 May 2008, Ravi <Raul,fr emont@gmail,com > wrote in
alt.guitar.beginner:
> If possible, I want to understand the rhythm within the context of
> melody only (no instrumental accompaniment). For example, if
> someone were
> to just sing a melody in 4/4 time, would that imply which beats
> are stressed?
Not necessarily. One melody might imply the emphasis, but another one
may not.
> So it seems the 4/4 time signature only designates the number of
> beats per measure and how the beats are divided -- not which beats
> are stressed.
The time signature specifies the number of beats per measure and the
value of one beat. That's all. Anything beyond that is assumed from
common usage or indicated by marks on the score.
> So is it up to the songwriter to specify which beat is stressed?
It's up to the notator and the performer, and anyone else who cares.
On 06 May 2008, Ravi <Raul,fr emont@gmail,com > wrote in
alt.guitar.beginner:
> If possible, I want to understand the rhythm within the context of
> melody only (no instrumental accompaniment). For example, if
> someone were
> to just sing a melody in 4/4 time, would that imply which beats
> are stressed?
Not necessarily. One melody might imply the emphasis, but another one
may not.
> So it seems the 4/4 time signature only designates the number of
> beats per measure and how the beats are divided -- not which beats
> are stressed.
The time signature specifies the number of beats per measure and the
value of one beat. That's all. Anything beyond that is assumed from
common usage or indicated by marks on the score.
> So is it up to the songwriter to specify which beat is stressed?
It's up to the notator and the performer, and anyone else who cares.
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
Ravi wrote:
> In a lot of rock music (maybe most,
> I'll have to listen and clap
> along), the stress is on the
> "backbeat" (beats 3 and 4).
The "backbeat" is 2 and 4.
Be careful what you call the "emphasis".
Just put the song on your player and try
and clap on 1 and 3, then try and clap on
2 and 4.
1 and 3 sounds, for most songs, like rhythmless
white people trying to clap along with the song.
There is almost no case where the emphasis
falls on 1 and 3 in pop music.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www .LumpyMusic,com
Ravi wrote:
> In a lot of rock music (maybe most,
> I'll have to listen and clap
> along), the stress is on the
> "backbeat" (beats 3 and 4).
The "backbeat" is 2 and 4.
Be careful what you call the "emphasis".
Just put the song on your player and try
and clap on 1 and 3, then try and clap on
2 and 4.
1 and 3 sounds, for most songs, like rhythmless
white people trying to clap along with the song.
There is almost no case where the emphasis
falls on 1 and 3 in pop music.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www .LumpyMusic,com
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
On 7 May, 02:52, Ravi <Raul,fr em...@gmail,com > wrote:
> On May 1, 4:53 am, Cliff <cl...@wheatleymetalfabrications.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> If possible, I want to understand the rhythm within the context of
> melody only (no instrumental accompaniment). For example, if someone
> were
> to just sing a melody in 4/4 time, would that imply which beats are
> stressed?
>
The strong beats of the melody line are a different case to the
accompanying beat. IMO STRONG, weak, STONG, weak is much more common
in a melody line.
In some jazz instruction books the melody beats 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & are
labelled: STRONG, Weak, strong, weak, STRONG, Weak, strong, weak. This
shows beats one and three as the strongest while the "&" of two and
four are the weakest. This is usually related to the idea of keeping
chord tones on the strong beats when you improvise a melody line.
Hope above is of interest, Cliff
On 7 May, 02:52, Ravi <Raul,fr em...@gmail,com > wrote:
> On May 1, 4:53 am, Cliff <cl...@wheatleymetalfabrications.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> If possible, I want to understand the rhythm within the context of
> melody only (no instrumental accompaniment). For example, if someone
> were
> to just sing a melody in 4/4 time, would that imply which beats are
> stressed?
>
The strong beats of the melody line are a different case to the
accompanying beat. IMO STRONG, weak, STONG, weak is much more common
in a melody line.
In some jazz instruction books the melody beats 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & are
labelled: STRONG, Weak, strong, weak, STRONG, Weak, strong, weak. This
shows beats one and three as the strongest while the "&" of two and
four are the weakest. This is usually related to the idea of keeping
chord tones on the strong beats when you improvise a melody line.
Hope above is of interest, Cliff
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
Cliff wrote:
> The strong beats of the melody line are a different case to the
> accompanying beat. IMO STRONG, weak, STONG, weak is much more common
> in a melody line.
Examples?
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www .LumpyMusic,com
Cliff wrote:
> The strong beats of the melody line are a different case to the
> accompanying beat. IMO STRONG, weak, STONG, weak is much more common
> in a melody line.
Examples?
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www .LumpyMusic,com
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
On 7 May, 13:26, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography,com > wrote:
> Cliff wrote:
> > The strong beats of the melody line are a different case to the
> > accompanying beat. IMO STRONG, weak, STONG, weak is much more common
> > in a melody line.
>
> Examples?
>
> Lumpy
>
> In Your Ears for 40 Years
> www .LumpyMusic,com
I should of seen that coming :-)
We Will Rock You by Queen is a good example. While the beat of the
drums is definately a big rock: one and TWO three and FOUR. The melody
is a more: BUDDY youre a boy MAKE a big noise....
More examples: Rock Around The Clock, Mr PC, Where Have All The
Flowers Gone
The main beat of these songs is strong on the two and four but the
words/melody are strong on the one and three. This seems to be quite
common in modern music.
Cliff
On 7 May, 13:26, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography,com > wrote:
> Cliff wrote:
> > The strong beats of the melody line are a different case to the
> > accompanying beat. IMO STRONG, weak, STONG, weak is much more common
> > in a melody line.
>
> Examples?
>
> Lumpy
>
> In Your Ears for 40 Years
> www .LumpyMusic,com
I should of seen that coming :-)
We Will Rock You by Queen is a good example. While the beat of the
drums is definately a big rock: one and TWO three and FOUR. The melody
is a more: BUDDY youre a boy MAKE a big noise....
More examples: Rock Around The Clock, Mr PC, Where Have All The
Flowers Gone
The main beat of these songs is strong on the two and four but the
words/melody are strong on the one and three. This seems to be quite
common in modern music.
Cliff
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
Cliff wrote:
> ...Where Have All The
> Flowers Gone
>
> The main beat of these songs is strong on the two and four but the
> words/melody are strong on the one and three. This seems to be quite
> common in modern music.
"Where have all___ the flow_ers gone"
WHERE comes on the 2.
ALL comes on the 4.
> We will rock you
> The melody
> is a more: BUDDY youre a boy MAKE a big noise...
Look at the poetic importance of the words.
You could eliminate the word BUDDY and the
phrase would still make sense. If you eliminated
BOY, it would be much less sensible as a phrase.
Sing it both ways -
BUDDY you're a boy
or
buddy you're a BOY
Which "fits" the song more comfortably.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www .LumpyMusic,com
Cliff wrote:
> ...Where Have All The
> Flowers Gone
>
> The main beat of these songs is strong on the two and four but the
> words/melody are strong on the one and three. This seems to be quite
> common in modern music.
"Where have all___ the flow_ers gone"
WHERE comes on the 2.
ALL comes on the 4.
> We will rock you
> The melody
> is a more: BUDDY youre a boy MAKE a big noise...
Look at the poetic importance of the words.
You could eliminate the word BUDDY and the
phrase would still make sense. If you eliminated
BOY, it would be much less sensible as a phrase.
Sing it both ways -
BUDDY you're a boy
or
buddy you're a BOY
Which "fits" the song more comfortably.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www .LumpyMusic,com
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
On 7 May, 15:08, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography,com > wrote:
> Cliff wrote:
> > ...Where Have All The
> > Flowers Gone
>
> > The main beat of these songs is strong on the two and four but the
> > words/melody are strong on the one and three. This seems to be quite
> > common in modern music.
>
> "Where have all the flow ers gone"
>
> WHERE comes on the 2.
> ALL comes on the 4.
Ooops, That'll teach me to post without checking my facts. I concede
on that one.
>
> > We will rock you
> > The melody
> > is a more: BUDDY youre a boy MAKE a big noise...
>
> Look at the poetic importance of the words.
> You could eliminate the word BUDDY and the
> phrase would still make sense. If you eliminated
> BOY, it would be much less sensible as a phrase.
>
> Sing it both ways -
>
> BUDDY you're a boy
> or
> buddy you're a BOY
>
> Which "fits" the song more comfortably.
>
I can see what your driving at but could it be that you need "boy" to
allow the phrase to end on a pulse, even if that is not the strongest
pulse in the phrase. May be the end of a phrase is more important than
the beginning.
I'm not convinced that because the main rhythm is strong on 2 and 4,
this means all the different musical voices must stick to these strong
beats. In Reggae the bass plays a strong one while the main pulse is
an off beat. In big band swing the rhythm guitar plays on the beat
while the band swings off the beat. OK you didn't say all the
instruments have to follow the main pulse.
Take a song like "Red Red Wine", the UB40 reggae version. I'd say the
main pulse is the off-beat played by the guitar but the vocal line
does not follow the off beat. I appreciate that you try to teach by
pointing people in the right direction to help them figure things out
for themselves but, I still feel the melodic rhythm can be different
from the main rock, reggae or swing rhythm of the song.
I don't have the knowledge to put my case well and, I don't want to
miss-inform anybody so, I think I better look into this a bit more :-)
If I'm complete wrong feel free to shoot me down. If I have half a
point, could you make things a bit clearer for anyone who may be
reading this.
Cheers, Cliff
On 7 May, 15:08, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography,com > wrote:
> Cliff wrote:
> > ...Where Have All The
> > Flowers Gone
>
> > The main beat of these songs is strong on the two and four but the
> > words/melody are strong on the one and three. This seems to be quite
> > common in modern music.
>
> "Where have all the flow ers gone"
>
> WHERE comes on the 2.
> ALL comes on the 4.
Ooops, That'll teach me to post without checking my facts. I concede
on that one.
>
> > We will rock you
> > The melody
> > is a more: BUDDY youre a boy MAKE a big noise...
>
> Look at the poetic importance of the words.
> You could eliminate the word BUDDY and the
> phrase would still make sense. If you eliminated
> BOY, it would be much less sensible as a phrase.
>
> Sing it both ways -
>
> BUDDY you're a boy
> or
> buddy you're a BOY
>
> Which "fits" the song more comfortably.
>
I can see what your driving at but could it be that you need "boy" to
allow the phrase to end on a pulse, even if that is not the strongest
pulse in the phrase. May be the end of a phrase is more important than
the beginning.
I'm not convinced that because the main rhythm is strong on 2 and 4,
this means all the different musical voices must stick to these strong
beats. In Reggae the bass plays a strong one while the main pulse is
an off beat. In big band swing the rhythm guitar plays on the beat
while the band swings off the beat. OK you didn't say all the
instruments have to follow the main pulse.
Take a song like "Red Red Wine", the UB40 reggae version. I'd say the
main pulse is the off-beat played by the guitar but the vocal line
does not follow the off beat. I appreciate that you try to teach by
pointing people in the right direction to help them figure things out
for themselves but, I still feel the melodic rhythm can be different
from the main rock, reggae or swing rhythm of the song.
I don't have the knowledge to put my case well and, I don't want to
miss-inform anybody so, I think I better look into this a bit more :-)
If I'm complete wrong feel free to shoot me down. If I have half a
point, could you make things a bit clearer for anyone who may be
reading this.
Cheers, Cliff
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
Cliff wrote:
> If I'm complete wrong feel free to shoot me down...
I'm not shooting..:-)
There are three components to all music.
RHYTHM
MELODY
HARMONY
RHYTHM defines the tempo (speed) and how
the music is sub-divided into measures and
beats.
MELODY is what the lead singer is doing
or the soloist. It's ONE note at a time.
HARMONY is all the rest of the notes that
exist concurrently with the melody. It is
more than one note at a time.
Theory heads sometimes speak of "HARMONIC Rhythm".
That means "chords change on every beat" or on
every 2 beats or 4 beats etc. It doesn't really
effect the timing or the underlying rhythm. It's
just a way of thinking about how often the chords
change.
MELODIC rhythm means essentially the same thing
only applied to the melody rather than the harmony.
Melody notes "change on every quarter" or every 8th
or every half etc. We have to analyze very small
parts of a song to deal with melodic rhythm because
it typically changes very quickly. What goes on for
beats 1 and 2 might change entirely by the time we
get to beat 3 and 4.
The melodic rhythm can draw attention to specific
words in a lyric or to specific notes in a solo.
That's a typical use that a composer might use.
But the concept of harmonic OR melodic rhythm
aren't really transferrable over to the overall
concept of RHYTHM, as in "feel the beat".
Using the UB40 RRW example, that raggae beat is
established by the non-melody instruments. That
bouncy, raggae feel exists before or even without
the melody.
Demonstrate the above by listening to the orig
Neil Diamond version and then the UB40 version.
Except for the patter/rap midsection of the UB40
version, the "melodic rhythm" is the same in both
songs. The perceived difference is based on what
we hear the rhythm section doing.
Demonstrate the "2 and 4 vs 1 and 3" concept by
clapping along with any song. Clap on 1/3 and then
clap on 2/4. The 1/3 nearly always sounds awkward.
That's because to feel any kind of rhythm, we have
to have at least TWO beats. ONE beat by itself is
not rhythmic. So if we have two beats, and we emphasize
the first one, the 2nd one tends to disappear. Conversely
if we emphasize the 2nd one, we consciously or unconsciously
feel the 1st one. There has to be a TIC, but the stronger
beat is the TOC. The TOC "bounces back" from the TIC,
allowing our ear/brain to "complete" the little two
beat figure.
To put it another way, emphasizing the 2nd of two beats
allows us to "complete" the rhythm a little easier than
if we emphasize the 1st of two. Not unlike the V to I
cadence. The I is what has to feel emphasized. The V
has to subvert to the I a little bit. If we were to
emphasize the V and de-emphasize the I, it would
feel awkward or incomplete or not (as) resolved.
I think my bottom line on rhythm is that we should
consciously focus on the (true) RHYTHM in terms of the
backbeat. Even if the vocals are back-phrasing,
like Sinatra or Ella, of if they seem to emphasize
the 1 and 3 for poetic or other reasons, that will
never override the underlying pulse of the rhythm.
If Nelson Riddle's orchestra didn't play in rhythm,
Frank would never have been able to modify his
own melodic rhythm.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www .LumpyMusic,com
Cliff wrote:
> If I'm complete wrong feel free to shoot me down...
I'm not shooting..:-)
There are three components to all music.
RHYTHM
MELODY
HARMONY
RHYTHM defines the tempo (speed) and how
the music is sub-divided into measures and
beats.
MELODY is what the lead singer is doing
or the soloist. It's ONE note at a time.
HARMONY is all the rest of the notes that
exist concurrently with the melody. It is
more than one note at a time.
Theory heads sometimes speak of "HARMONIC Rhythm".
That means "chords change on every beat" or on
every 2 beats or 4 beats etc. It doesn't really
effect the timing or the underlying rhythm. It's
just a way of thinking about how often the chords
change.
MELODIC rhythm means essentially the same thing
only applied to the melody rather than the harmony.
Melody notes "change on every quarter" or every 8th
or every half etc. We have to analyze very small
parts of a song to deal with melodic rhythm because
it typically changes very quickly. What goes on for
beats 1 and 2 might change entirely by the time we
get to beat 3 and 4.
The melodic rhythm can draw attention to specific
words in a lyric or to specific notes in a solo.
That's a typical use that a composer might use.
But the concept of harmonic OR melodic rhythm
aren't really transferrable over to the overall
concept of RHYTHM, as in "feel the beat".
Using the UB40 RRW example, that raggae beat is
established by the non-melody instruments. That
bouncy, raggae feel exists before or even without
the melody.
Demonstrate the above by listening to the orig
Neil Diamond version and then the UB40 version.
Except for the patter/rap midsection of the UB40
version, the "melodic rhythm" is the same in both
songs. The perceived difference is based on what
we hear the rhythm section doing.
Demonstrate the "2 and 4 vs 1 and 3" concept by
clapping along with any song. Clap on 1/3 and then
clap on 2/4. The 1/3 nearly always sounds awkward.
That's because to feel any kind of rhythm, we have
to have at least TWO beats. ONE beat by itself is
not rhythmic. So if we have two beats, and we emphasize
the first one, the 2nd one tends to disappear. Conversely
if we emphasize the 2nd one, we consciously or unconsciously
feel the 1st one. There has to be a TIC, but the stronger
beat is the TOC. The TOC "bounces back" from the TIC,
allowing our ear/brain to "complete" the little two
beat figure.
To put it another way, emphasizing the 2nd of two beats
allows us to "complete" the rhythm a little easier than
if we emphasize the 1st of two. Not unlike the V to I
cadence. The I is what has to feel emphasized. The V
has to subvert to the I a little bit. If we were to
emphasize the V and de-emphasize the I, it would
feel awkward or incomplete or not (as) resolved.
I think my bottom line on rhythm is that we should
consciously focus on the (true) RHYTHM in terms of the
backbeat. Even if the vocals are back-phrasing,
like Sinatra or Ella, of if they seem to emphasize
the 1 and 3 for poetic or other reasons, that will
never override the underlying pulse of the rhythm.
If Nelson Riddle's orchestra didn't play in rhythm,
Frank would never have been able to modify his
own melodic rhythm.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www .LumpyMusic,com
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
On 7 May, 17:24, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography,com > wrote:
> Cliff wrote:
> > If I'm complete wrong feel free to shoot me down...
>
> I'm not shooting..:-)
>
>snip
Thanks Lumpy,
I checked in a book last night. Yes, that's what I've been talking
about - Harmonic Rhythm.
Ravi asked: "If possible, I want to understand the rhythm within the
context of
melody only (no instrumental accompaniment)."
That brought the whole harmonic rhythm thing to mind. As harmonic
rhythm is the timing of chord changes and melody lines tend to contain
mainly chord tones, this must mean that harmonic rhythm can be
reflected in the melody lines.
I like the TIC TOC idea. I was picturing this concept like more this.
The harmonic rhythm is the solid base from which the main rhythm jumps
out at you. Both set the tempo of the music but the main rhythm gives
it it's energy and movement. This works for me because, it sort of
shows how the same chords and melody can be set to a different rhythm
to produce a different sort of movement. IMO it seems that the
interplay between the harmonic rhythm and the main rhythm is the main
feature that defines a musical style. It's seems to add the catchy
element that keeps things interesting.
It seem sensible to say that, without harmonic rhythm nobody would be
able to tell an off-beat from and on-beat.
I guess, often the guitar plays chords in time with the main rhythm
accent e.g. reggae. However that doesn't necessarily move the harmonic
rhythm which is usually held together by the bass and probably, to
some extent, the melody line. I have seen some example in swing, where
the guitar chord is delayed to a point where you are actually playing
a chord half a beat after the next chord should of started. I suppose
then you may be messing with the harmonic rhythm too.
I've been thinking a lot about rhythm lately and I've got to ask this.
Do jazz/swing players usually tap their foot on the beat or on the off-
beat? I know I always click my finger on the off-beat when listening
to anything with a nice swing to it.
Cheers, Cliff
On 7 May, 17:24, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography,com > wrote:
> Cliff wrote:
> > If I'm complete wrong feel free to shoot me down...
>
> I'm not shooting..:-)
>
>snip
Thanks Lumpy,
I checked in a book last night. Yes, that's what I've been talking
about - Harmonic Rhythm.
Ravi asked: "If possible, I want to understand the rhythm within the
context of
melody only (no instrumental accompaniment)."
That brought the whole harmonic rhythm thing to mind. As harmonic
rhythm is the timing of chord changes and melody lines tend to contain
mainly chord tones, this must mean that harmonic rhythm can be
reflected in the melody lines.
I like the TIC TOC idea. I was picturing this concept like more this.
The harmonic rhythm is the solid base from which the main rhythm jumps
out at you. Both set the tempo of the music but the main rhythm gives
it it's energy and movement. This works for me because, it sort of
shows how the same chords and melody can be set to a different rhythm
to produce a different sort of movement. IMO it seems that the
interplay between the harmonic rhythm and the main rhythm is the main
feature that defines a musical style. It's seems to add the catchy
element that keeps things interesting.
It seem sensible to say that, without harmonic rhythm nobody would be
able to tell an off-beat from and on-beat.
I guess, often the guitar plays chords in time with the main rhythm
accent e.g. reggae. However that doesn't necessarily move the harmonic
rhythm which is usually held together by the bass and probably, to
some extent, the melody line. I have seen some example in swing, where
the guitar chord is delayed to a point where you are actually playing
a chord half a beat after the next chord should of started. I suppose
then you may be messing with the harmonic rhythm too.
I've been thinking a lot about rhythm lately and I've got to ask this.
Do jazz/swing players usually tap their foot on the beat or on the off-
beat? I know I always click my finger on the off-beat when listening
to anything with a nice swing to it.
Cheers, Cliff
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
Cliff wrote:
[Harmonic Rhythm}
> ...This works for me because, it sort of
> shows how the same chords and melody can
> be set to a different rhythm
> to produce a different sort of movement...
Two songs, same chord progression,
different harmonic rhythm.
"Roxanne"
"Walk Don't Run"
"Sweet Home Alabama"
"Gloria"
"Don't Worry Baby" (Beach Boys)
"I've Got Rhythm"
"Pride and Joy" (SRV)
"Ballad of John and Yoko"
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www .LumpyMusic,com
Cliff wrote:
[Harmonic Rhythm}
> ...This works for me because, it sort of
> shows how the same chords and melody can
> be set to a different rhythm
> to produce a different sort of movement...
Two songs, same chord progression,
different harmonic rhythm.
"Roxanne"
"Walk Don't Run"
"Sweet Home Alabama"
"Gloria"
"Don't Worry Baby" (Beach Boys)
"I've Got Rhythm"
"Pride and Joy" (SRV)
"Ballad of John and Yoko"
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www .LumpyMusic,com
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
On 8 May, 14:19, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography,com > wrote:
> "Don't Worry Baby" (Beach Boys)
> "I've Got Rhythm"
Knew there were tons of tunes based on "I've Got Rhythm" but I never
expected one by the Beach Boys. Barber Shop meets the Great American
Song Book to produce rock'n'roll - mad! I'm definately gonna try those
two.
This whole subject of rhythm, harmonic rhythm and timing in general is
so easy to over look. When I started looking for ways to become a
better guitarist I got a book and taught myself modes, altered scales
etc. This helped but it didn't have the effect I was looking for. Now
I realise that there are plenty of cool sounding players who just play
straight diatonic stuff and it's their timing that makes them sound
cool. I suppose it's so much easier to publish a book full of scales
than it is to explain subtle points of timing. Scales just have such
flash names too. "I can play the Super Locrian" just sounds like a
bigger achievement than "I can play just behind the beat".
Cheers, Cliff
On 8 May, 14:19, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography,com > wrote:
> "Don't Worry Baby" (Beach Boys)
> "I've Got Rhythm"
Knew there were tons of tunes based on "I've Got Rhythm" but I never
expected one by the Beach Boys. Barber Shop meets the Great American
Song Book to produce rock'n'roll - mad! I'm definately gonna try those
two.
This whole subject of rhythm, harmonic rhythm and timing in general is
so easy to over look. When I started looking for ways to become a
better guitarist I got a book and taught myself modes, altered scales
etc. This helped but it didn't have the effect I was looking for. Now
I realise that there are plenty of cool sounding players who just play
straight diatonic stuff and it's their timing that makes them sound
cool. I suppose it's so much easier to publish a book full of scales
than it is to explain subtle points of timing. Scales just have such
flash names too. "I can play the Super Locrian" just sounds like a
bigger achievement than "I can play just behind the beat".
Cheers, Cliff
Re: Finding Beat One of the song.
Cliff wrote:
> > "Don't Worry Baby" (Beach Boys)
> > "I've Got Rhythm"
>
> Knew there were tons of tunes based
> on "I've Got Rhythm" but I never
> expected one by the Beach Boys.
> Barber Shop meets the Great American
> Song Book to produce rock'n'roll - mad!
> I'm definately gonna try those two.
Top of my head -
"Beyond The Sea"
"You Send Me"
"Let's Fall in Love" (both versions)
"Surfer Girl" (There's those BBs again)
"Tracks of my Tears"
"Dream Lover"
"Fly Me to the Moon" (start on vi)
"Runaround Sue"
"I've Just Seen a Face"
"I've Got You Under My Skin"
"I'm an Old Cowhand" (start on ii)
"Have Yourself a Merry Little Xmas"
"Goodnight Sweetheart"
"Blue Moon"
"Heart and Soul" (that all the drunks play on piano)
"One Fine Day" (Carole King, start on the refrain)
"Then You Can Tell Me, Goodbye"
"Up On the Roof"
"Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow"
Sometimes the harmonic rhythm changes from
song to song in the above (quicker/slower changes,
hold longer on some chords). Sometimes they
start on a chord other than the I. Sometimes
the I vi ii V pattern only happens during
the refrain or chorus or part of a verse.
They might freely substitute the ii and IV.
"Surfer Girl" for example, does I vi ii V for
the first phrase, then I I7 IV iv, for the
second phrase, then back to normal I vi ii V
for the third phrase and the refrain.
The bridge is also I vi ii V "We could ride...
the surf together", it just starts on the IV
(or the ii, same thing). That harmony is ii V I vi.
Same old thing, just started on ii. Then to get out of
the bridge, it goes ii V I vi then II[Major] (Every where I)
V (Go___). At that point you're at the V and that
naturally takes us home to the I where the whole
thing repeats til the end. They modulate in some
recordings of that song. Modulations always want
to occurr on the V chord. Brian and the Boys
didn't break the rule there either. They simply
bump the V up a half step (a triumphant modulation),
then continue the same pattern again.
Tracks of my Tears - does I vi ii V and then
once in a while he does IV V I or ii V I, the
"other" most used cadences. Those are nearly
the same thing really. ii V I is the same as
vi ii V I just leave the vi off. And since
it's usually I in place of that vi, those
two chords I and vi are nearly the same,
it turns out that essentially everything
is trying to get to that V to I cadence
via the same route.
In otherwords, use Smokey's hook on the Beach Boys
tune and you get -
I I IV V
I have watched you on the shore
In that experiment, I just didn't play the vi.
I stayed on the I(one) instead. vi = I, almost.
vi7 is even closer to I(one). (Am7 and C)
I hope that lines up ok in ascii.
The ultramichoacan cadence.
Much cooler than the superlochrian mode.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www .LumpyMusic,com
Cliff wrote:
> > "Don't Worry Baby" (Beach Boys)
> > "I've Got Rhythm"
>
> Knew there were tons of tunes based
> on "I've Got Rhythm" but I never
> expected one by the Beach Boys.
> Barber Shop meets the Great American
> Song Book to produce rock'n'roll - mad!
> I'm definately gonna try those two.
Top of my head -
"Beyond The Sea"
"You Send Me"
"Let's Fall in Love" (both versions)
"Surfer Girl" (There's those BBs again)
"Tracks of my Tears"
"Dream Lover"
"Fly Me to the Moon" (start on vi)
"Runaround Sue"
"I've Just Seen a Face"
"I've Got You Under My Skin"
"I'm an Old Cowhand" (start on ii)
"Have Yourself a Merry Little Xmas"
"Goodnight Sweetheart"
"Blue Moon"
"Heart and Soul" (that all the drunks play on piano)
"One Fine Day" (Carole King, start on the refrain)
"Then You Can Tell Me, Goodbye"
"Up On the Roof"
"Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow"
Sometimes the harmonic rhythm changes from
song to song in the above (quicker/slower changes,
hold longer on some chords). Sometimes they
start on a chord other than the I. Sometimes
the I vi ii V pattern only happens during
the refrain or chorus or part of a verse.
They might freely substitute the ii and IV.
"Surfer Girl" for example, does I vi ii V for
the first phrase, then I I7 IV iv, for the
second phrase, then back to normal I vi ii V
for the third phrase and the refrain.
The bridge is also I vi ii V "We could ride...
the surf together", it just starts on the IV
(or the ii, same thing). That harmony is ii V I vi.
Same old thing, just started on ii. Then to get out of
the bridge, it goes ii V I vi then II[Major] (Every where I)
V (Go___). At that point you're at the V and that
naturally takes us home to the I where the whole
thing repeats til the end. They modulate in some
recordings of that song. Modulations always want
to occurr on the V chord. Brian and the Boys
didn't break the rule there either. They simply
bump the V up a half step (a triumphant modulation),
then continue the same pattern again.
Tracks of my Tears - does I vi ii V and then
once in a while he does IV V I or ii V I, the
"other" most used cadences. Those are nearly
the same thing really. ii V I is the same as
vi ii V I just leave the vi off. And since
it's usually I in place of that vi, those
two chords I and vi are nearly the same,
it turns out that essentially everything
is trying to get to that V to I cadence
via the same route.
In otherwords, use Smokey's hook on the Beach Boys
tune and you get -
I I IV V
I have watched you on the shore
In that experiment, I just didn't play the vi.
I stayed on the I(one) instead. vi = I, almost.
vi7 is even closer to I(one). (Am7 and C)
I hope that lines up ok in ascii.
The ultramichoacan cadence.
Much cooler than the superlochrian mode.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
www .LumpyMusic,com
