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bad set up or low quality guitar?
bad set up or low quality guitar?
Hi everyone,
I have a question to ask about setups...
I purchased an Yamaha EG303 guitar from a pawn shop awhile back, and
about a couple of months ago I took it to a local guitar shop for a
set up.
The person working behind the counter told me that they had a backlog
and it would take about a week or so to adjust and set up the guitar
properly. I was informed that as part of the set up they would lower
the action.
After a week I picked up the guitar from the shop, and they had put
new strings on it, but it seemed, at least to this "newbie", that they
really didn't lower the action at all. In the first place, I did
feel that the action was too high at the nut, which is why I took it
there in the first place . Hopefully I have the terminology
right..isn't the nut the plastic piece where the strings slot into?
Well, that's what I'm referring to. I also noticed that they didn't
tighten up the connection on the guitar where the cable that comes
from the amp plugs into. It was loose when it came in and loose when
it came out. I thought that as part of the setup they are supposed
to do all of that? I also noticed that several of the strings were
not in tune after I picked it up from the guitar shop, and when I went
home I had to tune it up myself. Hmmmmmm...
Earlier this morning, I was playing a beatles song called, things we
said today, and my hands were aching all over because I had to keep
pressing down hard to the strings to get the notes of the chords to
sound. It shouldn't be that hard if it was properly set up....I've
been playing guitar for 10 months now.. I think the action is too high
and probably wasn't really lowered as per my request.
Though I do understand that sometimes a guitar when a guitar to
brought in for a setup ...there are instances where they can only
lower it so much because of other "issues". I know this because I
once took an acoustic guitar for a set-up and explicitly asked for the
action to be lowered, but after they examined the guitar I was told
that lowering it a whole lot probably wouldn't be possible because
that particular guitar was a cheap one. The necks are usually kind
of warped out of the factory. Maybe that is why they didn't lower the
action enough (if they even bothered) on this electric for similar
reasons. .
Instead of taking it back to get them to re-adjust it, where they
would just charge me another $50, I tried to lower it myself.
I took off the plastic piece where the strings slot into, and with a
knife I cut the notches a little bit deeper. Not a whole
little...just a little.
I'm not sure I should've done that, although I don't hear any
rattling. But I know I'm not a guitar "tech" and probably shouldn't
have messed with it.
I was just wondering if there was a place online where I could order
another plastic piece that is already cut to the right
specifications?
Also, I'm wondering that since I'm finding this particular guitar kind
of cumbersome to play....if it's time just to purchase a better
quality instrument? I understand that the Yamaha EG303 is more of
a beginners guitar, and maybe it's time to move up to something
else. I also get the feeling that next time I need a "set up", I
should take it elsewhere.
thanks
Hi everyone,
I have a question to ask about setups...
I purchased an Yamaha EG303 guitar from a pawn shop awhile back, and
about a couple of months ago I took it to a local guitar shop for a
set up.
The person working behind the counter told me that they had a backlog
and it would take about a week or so to adjust and set up the guitar
properly. I was informed that as part of the set up they would lower
the action.
After a week I picked up the guitar from the shop, and they had put
new strings on it, but it seemed, at least to this "newbie", that they
really didn't lower the action at all. In the first place, I did
feel that the action was too high at the nut, which is why I took it
there in the first place . Hopefully I have the terminology
right..isn't the nut the plastic piece where the strings slot into?
Well, that's what I'm referring to. I also noticed that they didn't
tighten up the connection on the guitar where the cable that comes
from the amp plugs into. It was loose when it came in and loose when
it came out. I thought that as part of the setup they are supposed
to do all of that? I also noticed that several of the strings were
not in tune after I picked it up from the guitar shop, and when I went
home I had to tune it up myself. Hmmmmmm...
Earlier this morning, I was playing a beatles song called, things we
said today, and my hands were aching all over because I had to keep
pressing down hard to the strings to get the notes of the chords to
sound. It shouldn't be that hard if it was properly set up....I've
been playing guitar for 10 months now.. I think the action is too high
and probably wasn't really lowered as per my request.
Though I do understand that sometimes a guitar when a guitar to
brought in for a setup ...there are instances where they can only
lower it so much because of other "issues". I know this because I
once took an acoustic guitar for a set-up and explicitly asked for the
action to be lowered, but after they examined the guitar I was told
that lowering it a whole lot probably wouldn't be possible because
that particular guitar was a cheap one. The necks are usually kind
of warped out of the factory. Maybe that is why they didn't lower the
action enough (if they even bothered) on this electric for similar
reasons. .
Instead of taking it back to get them to re-adjust it, where they
would just charge me another $50, I tried to lower it myself.
I took off the plastic piece where the strings slot into, and with a
knife I cut the notches a little bit deeper. Not a whole
little...just a little.
I'm not sure I should've done that, although I don't hear any
rattling. But I know I'm not a guitar "tech" and probably shouldn't
have messed with it.
I was just wondering if there was a place online where I could order
another plastic piece that is already cut to the right
specifications?
Also, I'm wondering that since I'm finding this particular guitar kind
of cumbersome to play....if it's time just to purchase a better
quality instrument? I understand that the Yamaha EG303 is more of
a beginners guitar, and maybe it's time to move up to something
else. I also get the feeling that next time I need a "set up", I
should take it elsewhere.
thanks
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
Imo, they should have adjusted it to your satisfaction. What else
would you be paying for?
The fact that they didn't tighten the input jack, assuming you pointed
this out, suggests they are too busy and didn't take adequate time
with your guitar.
I would take it back and say they didn't adjust it the way I wanted or
tighten the jack, would they please do this.
Imo, they should have adjusted it to your satisfaction. What else
would you be paying for?
The fact that they didn't tighten the input jack, assuming you pointed
this out, suggests they are too busy and didn't take adequate time
with your guitar.
I would take it back and say they didn't adjust it the way I wanted or
tighten the jack, would they please do this.
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
Derek wrote:
> I would take it back and say they
> didn't adjust it the way I wanted or
> tighten the jack, would they please do this.
I would too.
Ask them "What measurement did they set the action at?"
If the answer is "we set it to low" run, do not walk,
away from that place.
If the answer is "Bass side at x/64ths and treble side
at y/64ths, or some other mathematical figure, a
real measurement, then I'd probably still not
continue to consider them as my tech.
Get a luthier that will ask you about your playing
style and/or watches while you play something.
A setup for a bluegrass guy is different than for
a folk and for a jazz etc.
Now to get a handle on what some of those measurements
should be, and more than you ever wanted to know
about guitar setups, see Frank Ford's site at w w w . fr ets . com
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com
Derek wrote:
> I would take it back and say they
> didn't adjust it the way I wanted or
> tighten the jack, would they please do this.
I would too.
Ask them "What measurement did they set the action at?"
If the answer is "we set it to low" run, do not walk,
away from that place.
If the answer is "Bass side at x/64ths and treble side
at y/64ths, or some other mathematical figure, a
real measurement, then I'd probably still not
continue to consider them as my tech.
Get a luthier that will ask you about your playing
style and/or watches while you play something.
A setup for a bluegrass guy is different than for
a folk and for a jazz etc.
Now to get a handle on what some of those measurements
should be, and more than you ever wanted to know
about guitar setups, see Frank Ford's site at w w w . fr ets . com
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
tysteel <tysteel3000@aol . com > wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have a question to ask about setups...
>
> I purchased an Yamaha EG303 guitar from a pawn shop awhile back, and
> about a couple of months ago I took it to a local guitar shop for a
> set up.
>
> The person working behind the counter told me that they had a backlog
> and it would take about a week or so to adjust and set up the guitar
> properly. I was informed that as part of the set up they would lower
> the action.
>
> After a week I picked up the guitar from the shop, and they had put
> new strings on it, but it seemed, at least to this "newbie", that they
> really didn't lower the action at all. In the first place, I did
> feel that the action was too high at the nut, which is why I took it
> there in the first place . Hopefully I have the terminology
> right..isn't the nut the plastic piece where the strings slot into?
> Well, that's what I'm referring to. I also noticed that they didn't
> tighten up the connection on the guitar where the cable that comes
> from the amp plugs into. It was loose when it came in and loose when
> it came out. I thought that as part of the setup they are supposed
> to do all of that? I also noticed that several of the strings were
> not in tune after I picked it up from the guitar shop, and when I went
> home I had to tune it up myself. Hmmmmmm...
>
> Earlier this morning, I was playing a beatles song called, things we
> said today, and my hands were aching all over because I had to keep
> pressing down hard to the strings to get the notes of the chords to
> sound. It shouldn't be that hard if it was properly set up....I've
> been playing guitar for 10 months now.. I think the action is too high
> and probably wasn't really lowered as per my request.
>
> Though I do understand that sometimes a guitar when a guitar to
> brought in for a setup ...there are instances where they can only
> lower it so much because of other "issues". I know this because I
> once took an acoustic guitar for a set-up and explicitly asked for the
> action to be lowered, but after they examined the guitar I was told
> that lowering it a whole lot probably wouldn't be possible because
> that particular guitar was a cheap one. The necks are usually kind
> of warped out of the factory. Maybe that is why they didn't lower the
> action enough (if they even bothered) on this electric for similar
> reasons. .
>
> Instead of taking it back to get them to re-adjust it, where they
> would just charge me another $50, I tried to lower it myself.
>
> I took off the plastic piece where the strings slot into, and with a
> knife I cut the notches a little bit deeper. Not a whole
> little...just a little.
>
> I'm not sure I should've done that, although I don't hear any
> rattling. But I know I'm not a guitar "tech" and probably shouldn't
> have messed with it.
>
> I was just wondering if there was a place online where I could order
> another plastic piece that is already cut to the right
> specifications?
>
> Also, I'm wondering that since I'm finding this particular guitar kind
> of cumbersome to play....if it's time just to purchase a better
> quality instrument? I understand that the Yamaha EG303 is more of
> a beginners guitar, and maybe it's time to move up to something
> else. I also get the feeling that next time I need a "set up", I
> should take it elsewhere.
>
> thanks
Finding a good tech can be like finding a needle in a haystack. I know
it was for me.
I know it takes some time but it's worth it. Find someone who will do
routine work (and that includes filing down your nut slots *or* cutting
a new nut) while you wait and observe. Ask a lot of questions; the good
guys don't mind. And they'll explain what they're doing.
A good tech will listen and watch you play. He will tailor the guitar's
setup to your own playing style and preferences. This is one area where
one size doesn't fit all!
By the way, most entry-level Yamahas are of sufficiently high quality
that they can be set up the way you like. It's possible, of course,
that the guitar you got from a pawn shop and has been badly abused and
has problems that aren't worth fixing, like a severely twisted neck.
Again, a good tech should be able to explain to you in detail; he won't
resort to statements like "that particular guitar was a cheap one".
tysteel <tysteel3000@aol . com > wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have a question to ask about setups...
>
> I purchased an Yamaha EG303 guitar from a pawn shop awhile back, and
> about a couple of months ago I took it to a local guitar shop for a
> set up.
>
> The person working behind the counter told me that they had a backlog
> and it would take about a week or so to adjust and set up the guitar
> properly. I was informed that as part of the set up they would lower
> the action.
>
> After a week I picked up the guitar from the shop, and they had put
> new strings on it, but it seemed, at least to this "newbie", that they
> really didn't lower the action at all. In the first place, I did
> feel that the action was too high at the nut, which is why I took it
> there in the first place . Hopefully I have the terminology
> right..isn't the nut the plastic piece where the strings slot into?
> Well, that's what I'm referring to. I also noticed that they didn't
> tighten up the connection on the guitar where the cable that comes
> from the amp plugs into. It was loose when it came in and loose when
> it came out. I thought that as part of the setup they are supposed
> to do all of that? I also noticed that several of the strings were
> not in tune after I picked it up from the guitar shop, and when I went
> home I had to tune it up myself. Hmmmmmm...
>
> Earlier this morning, I was playing a beatles song called, things we
> said today, and my hands were aching all over because I had to keep
> pressing down hard to the strings to get the notes of the chords to
> sound. It shouldn't be that hard if it was properly set up....I've
> been playing guitar for 10 months now.. I think the action is too high
> and probably wasn't really lowered as per my request.
>
> Though I do understand that sometimes a guitar when a guitar to
> brought in for a setup ...there are instances where they can only
> lower it so much because of other "issues". I know this because I
> once took an acoustic guitar for a set-up and explicitly asked for the
> action to be lowered, but after they examined the guitar I was told
> that lowering it a whole lot probably wouldn't be possible because
> that particular guitar was a cheap one. The necks are usually kind
> of warped out of the factory. Maybe that is why they didn't lower the
> action enough (if they even bothered) on this electric for similar
> reasons. .
>
> Instead of taking it back to get them to re-adjust it, where they
> would just charge me another $50, I tried to lower it myself.
>
> I took off the plastic piece where the strings slot into, and with a
> knife I cut the notches a little bit deeper. Not a whole
> little...just a little.
>
> I'm not sure I should've done that, although I don't hear any
> rattling. But I know I'm not a guitar "tech" and probably shouldn't
> have messed with it.
>
> I was just wondering if there was a place online where I could order
> another plastic piece that is already cut to the right
> specifications?
>
> Also, I'm wondering that since I'm finding this particular guitar kind
> of cumbersome to play....if it's time just to purchase a better
> quality instrument? I understand that the Yamaha EG303 is more of
> a beginners guitar, and maybe it's time to move up to something
> else. I also get the feeling that next time I need a "set up", I
> should take it elsewhere.
>
> thanks
Finding a good tech can be like finding a needle in a haystack. I know
it was for me.
I know it takes some time but it's worth it. Find someone who will do
routine work (and that includes filing down your nut slots *or* cutting
a new nut) while you wait and observe. Ask a lot of questions; the good
guys don't mind. And they'll explain what they're doing.
A good tech will listen and watch you play. He will tailor the guitar's
setup to your own playing style and preferences. This is one area where
one size doesn't fit all!
By the way, most entry-level Yamahas are of sufficiently high quality
that they can be set up the way you like. It's possible, of course,
that the guitar you got from a pawn shop and has been badly abused and
has problems that aren't worth fixing, like a severely twisted neck.
Again, a good tech should be able to explain to you in detail; he won't
resort to statements like "that particular guitar was a cheap one".
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
RichL wrote:
> tysteel <tysteel3000@aol . com > wrote:
>
>>Hi everyone,
>>
>>I have a question to ask about setups...
>>
>>I purchased an Yamaha EG303 guitar from a pawn shop awhile back, and
>>about a couple of months ago I took it to a local guitar shop for a
>>set up.
>>
>>The person working behind the counter told me that they had a backlog
>>and it would take about a week or so to adjust and set up the guitar
>>properly. I was informed that as part of the set up they would lower
>>the action.
>>
>>After a week I picked up the guitar from the shop, and they had put
>>new strings on it, but it seemed, at least to this "newbie", that they
>>really didn't lower the action at all. In the first place, I did
>>feel that the action was too high at the nut, which is why I took it
>>there in the first place . Hopefully I have the terminology
>>right..isn't the nut the plastic piece where the strings slot into?
>>Well, that's what I'm referring to. I also noticed that they didn't
>>tighten up the connection on the guitar where the cable that comes
>>from the amp plugs into. It was loose when it came in and loose when
>>it came out. I thought that as part of the setup they are supposed
>>to do all of that? I also noticed that several of the strings were
>>not in tune after I picked it up from the guitar shop, and when I went
>>home I had to tune it up myself. Hmmmmmm...
>>
>>Earlier this morning, I was playing a beatles song called, things we
>>said today, and my hands were aching all over because I had to keep
>>pressing down hard to the strings to get the notes of the chords to
>>sound. It shouldn't be that hard if it was properly set up....I've
>>been playing guitar for 10 months now.. I think the action is too high
>>and probably wasn't really lowered as per my request.
>>
>>Though I do understand that sometimes a guitar when a guitar to
>>brought in for a setup ...there are instances where they can only
>>lower it so much because of other "issues". I know this because I
>>once took an acoustic guitar for a set-up and explicitly asked for the
>>action to be lowered, but after they examined the guitar I was told
>>that lowering it a whole lot probably wouldn't be possible because
>>that particular guitar was a cheap one. The necks are usually kind
>>of warped out of the factory. Maybe that is why they didn't lower the
>>action enough (if they even bothered) on this electric for similar
>>reasons. .
>>
>>Instead of taking it back to get them to re-adjust it, where they
>>would just charge me another $50, I tried to lower it myself.
>>
>>I took off the plastic piece where the strings slot into, and with a
>>knife I cut the notches a little bit deeper. Not a whole
>>little...just a little.
>>
>>I'm not sure I should've done that, although I don't hear any
>>rattling. But I know I'm not a guitar "tech" and probably shouldn't
>>have messed with it.
>>
>>I was just wondering if there was a place online where I could order
>>another plastic piece that is already cut to the right
>>specifications?
>>
>>Also, I'm wondering that since I'm finding this particular guitar kind
>>of cumbersome to play....if it's time just to purchase a better
>>quality instrument? I understand that the Yamaha EG303 is more of
>>a beginners guitar, and maybe it's time to move up to something
>>else. I also get the feeling that next time I need a "set up", I
>>should take it elsewhere.
>>
>>thanks
>
>
> Finding a good tech can be like finding a needle in a haystack. I know
> it was for me.
>
> I know it takes some time but it's worth it. Find someone who will do
> routine work (and that includes filing down your nut slots *or* cutting
> a new nut) while you wait and observe. Ask a lot of questions; the good
> guys don't mind. And they'll explain what they're doing.
>
> A good tech will listen and watch you play. He will tailor the guitar's
> setup to your own playing style and preferences. This is one area where
> one size doesn't fit all!
>
> By the way, most entry-level Yamahas are of sufficiently high quality
> that they can be set up the way you like. It's possible, of course,
> that the guitar you got from a pawn shop and has been badly abused and
> has problems that aren't worth fixing, like a severely twisted neck.
> Again, a good tech should be able to explain to you in detail; he won't
> resort to statements like "that particular guitar was a cheap one".
>
>
I hate to say this, but there might also be a bit of "it's a cheap guitar, what
do you expect" attitude amongst good techs. That what I was told when I had
work done on an Oscar Schmidt OE30. My response... I expect the job done
right, just as if it was a Gibson, because you're getting the SAME MONEY to do
it! The second time around, the job was MUCH better. Luthier was not happy
with me, though.
Since I sometimes mention Mike Lull (at least at alt.guitar) and since some guys
know where I live, this was NOT Mike. He does a top notch job. ...and has been
happy to look over my offshore cheaper guitars as well as my main Strat.
Instead of taking a "what do you expect" attitude, he said something like "it's
amazing what you can get for the dollar."
RichL wrote:
> tysteel <tysteel3000@aol . com > wrote:
>
>>Hi everyone,
>>
>>I have a question to ask about setups...
>>
>>I purchased an Yamaha EG303 guitar from a pawn shop awhile back, and
>>about a couple of months ago I took it to a local guitar shop for a
>>set up.
>>
>>The person working behind the counter told me that they had a backlog
>>and it would take about a week or so to adjust and set up the guitar
>>properly. I was informed that as part of the set up they would lower
>>the action.
>>
>>After a week I picked up the guitar from the shop, and they had put
>>new strings on it, but it seemed, at least to this "newbie", that they
>>really didn't lower the action at all. In the first place, I did
>>feel that the action was too high at the nut, which is why I took it
>>there in the first place . Hopefully I have the terminology
>>right..isn't the nut the plastic piece where the strings slot into?
>>Well, that's what I'm referring to. I also noticed that they didn't
>>tighten up the connection on the guitar where the cable that comes
>>from the amp plugs into. It was loose when it came in and loose when
>>it came out. I thought that as part of the setup they are supposed
>>to do all of that? I also noticed that several of the strings were
>>not in tune after I picked it up from the guitar shop, and when I went
>>home I had to tune it up myself. Hmmmmmm...
>>
>>Earlier this morning, I was playing a beatles song called, things we
>>said today, and my hands were aching all over because I had to keep
>>pressing down hard to the strings to get the notes of the chords to
>>sound. It shouldn't be that hard if it was properly set up....I've
>>been playing guitar for 10 months now.. I think the action is too high
>>and probably wasn't really lowered as per my request.
>>
>>Though I do understand that sometimes a guitar when a guitar to
>>brought in for a setup ...there are instances where they can only
>>lower it so much because of other "issues". I know this because I
>>once took an acoustic guitar for a set-up and explicitly asked for the
>>action to be lowered, but after they examined the guitar I was told
>>that lowering it a whole lot probably wouldn't be possible because
>>that particular guitar was a cheap one. The necks are usually kind
>>of warped out of the factory. Maybe that is why they didn't lower the
>>action enough (if they even bothered) on this electric for similar
>>reasons. .
>>
>>Instead of taking it back to get them to re-adjust it, where they
>>would just charge me another $50, I tried to lower it myself.
>>
>>I took off the plastic piece where the strings slot into, and with a
>>knife I cut the notches a little bit deeper. Not a whole
>>little...just a little.
>>
>>I'm not sure I should've done that, although I don't hear any
>>rattling. But I know I'm not a guitar "tech" and probably shouldn't
>>have messed with it.
>>
>>I was just wondering if there was a place online where I could order
>>another plastic piece that is already cut to the right
>>specifications?
>>
>>Also, I'm wondering that since I'm finding this particular guitar kind
>>of cumbersome to play....if it's time just to purchase a better
>>quality instrument? I understand that the Yamaha EG303 is more of
>>a beginners guitar, and maybe it's time to move up to something
>>else. I also get the feeling that next time I need a "set up", I
>>should take it elsewhere.
>>
>>thanks
>
>
> Finding a good tech can be like finding a needle in a haystack. I know
> it was for me.
>
> I know it takes some time but it's worth it. Find someone who will do
> routine work (and that includes filing down your nut slots *or* cutting
> a new nut) while you wait and observe. Ask a lot of questions; the good
> guys don't mind. And they'll explain what they're doing.
>
> A good tech will listen and watch you play. He will tailor the guitar's
> setup to your own playing style and preferences. This is one area where
> one size doesn't fit all!
>
> By the way, most entry-level Yamahas are of sufficiently high quality
> that they can be set up the way you like. It's possible, of course,
> that the guitar you got from a pawn shop and has been badly abused and
> has problems that aren't worth fixing, like a severely twisted neck.
> Again, a good tech should be able to explain to you in detail; he won't
> resort to statements like "that particular guitar was a cheap one".
>
>
I hate to say this, but there might also be a bit of "it's a cheap guitar, what
do you expect" attitude amongst good techs. That what I was told when I had
work done on an Oscar Schmidt OE30. My response... I expect the job done
right, just as if it was a Gibson, because you're getting the SAME MONEY to do
it! The second time around, the job was MUCH better. Luthier was not happy
with me, though.
Since I sometimes mention Mike Lull (at least at alt.guitar) and since some guys
know where I live, this was NOT Mike. He does a top notch job. ...and has been
happy to look over my offshore cheaper guitars as well as my main Strat.
Instead of taking a "what do you expect" attitude, he said something like "it's
amazing what you can get for the dollar."
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
>
> I hate to say this, but there might also be a bit of "it's a cheap guitar,
> what do you expect" attitude amongst good techs. That what I was told
> when I had work done on an Oscar Schmidt OE30. My response... I expect
> the job done right, just as if it was a Gibson, because you're getting the
> SAME MONEY to do it! The second time around, the job was MUCH better.
> Luthier was not happy with me, though.
>
> Since I sometimes mention Mike Lull (at least at alt.guitar) and since
> some guys know where I live, this was NOT Mike. He does a top notch job.
> ...and has been happy to look over my offshore cheaper guitars as well as
> my main Strat. Instead of taking a "what do you expect" attitude, he said
> something like "it's amazing what you can get for the dollar."
I think it has been said many times that due to good quality mass production
techniques the quality of cheap guitars has become more consistent and your
less likely to get one that can't be adjusted. A bit of fret filing, recut
the nut, alter the action. If guitars were made so badly people wouldn't buy
them. (The exception being the Ebay LP knockoffs :-) )
I'm generalising a bit but basic business sense applies.
Angof
>
> I hate to say this, but there might also be a bit of "it's a cheap guitar,
> what do you expect" attitude amongst good techs. That what I was told
> when I had work done on an Oscar Schmidt OE30. My response... I expect
> the job done right, just as if it was a Gibson, because you're getting the
> SAME MONEY to do it! The second time around, the job was MUCH better.
> Luthier was not happy with me, though.
>
> Since I sometimes mention Mike Lull (at least at alt.guitar) and since
> some guys know where I live, this was NOT Mike. He does a top notch job.
> ...and has been happy to look over my offshore cheaper guitars as well as
> my main Strat. Instead of taking a "what do you expect" attitude, he said
> something like "it's amazing what you can get for the dollar."
I think it has been said many times that due to good quality mass production
techniques the quality of cheap guitars has become more consistent and your
less likely to get one that can't be adjusted. A bit of fret filing, recut
the nut, alter the action. If guitars were made so badly people wouldn't buy
them. (The exception being the Ebay LP knockoffs :-) )
I'm generalising a bit but basic business sense applies.
Angof
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
Angof wrote:
>>I hate to say this, but there might also be a bit of "it's a cheap guitar,
>>what do you expect" attitude amongst good techs. That what I was told
>>when I had work done on an Oscar Schmidt OE30. My response... I expect
>>the job done right, just as if it was a Gibson, because you're getting the
>>SAME MONEY to do it! The second time around, the job was MUCH better.
>>Luthier was not happy with me, though.
>>
>>Since I sometimes mention Mike Lull (at least at alt.guitar) and since
>>some guys know where I live, this was NOT Mike. He does a top notch job.
>>...and has been happy to look over my offshore cheaper guitars as well as
>>my main Strat. Instead of taking a "what do you expect" attitude, he said
>>something like "it's amazing what you can get for the dollar."
>
>
>
> I think it has been said many times that due to good quality mass production
> techniques the quality of cheap guitars has become more consistent and your
> less likely to get one that can't be adjusted. A bit of fret filing, recut
> the nut, alter the action. If guitars were made so badly people wouldn't buy
> them. (The exception being the Ebay LP knockoffs :-) )
>
> I'm generalising a bit but basic business sense applies.
>
> Angof
>
>
I agree completely. Today's cheap guitars beat the heck out of what was
available in the 70's. It just pissed me off that a luthier did a cheap job
because it was a cheap guitar. When I returned it, he did the job right.
Angof wrote:
>>I hate to say this, but there might also be a bit of "it's a cheap guitar,
>>what do you expect" attitude amongst good techs. That what I was told
>>when I had work done on an Oscar Schmidt OE30. My response... I expect
>>the job done right, just as if it was a Gibson, because you're getting the
>>SAME MONEY to do it! The second time around, the job was MUCH better.
>>Luthier was not happy with me, though.
>>
>>Since I sometimes mention Mike Lull (at least at alt.guitar) and since
>>some guys know where I live, this was NOT Mike. He does a top notch job.
>>...and has been happy to look over my offshore cheaper guitars as well as
>>my main Strat. Instead of taking a "what do you expect" attitude, he said
>>something like "it's amazing what you can get for the dollar."
>
>
>
> I think it has been said many times that due to good quality mass production
> techniques the quality of cheap guitars has become more consistent and your
> less likely to get one that can't be adjusted. A bit of fret filing, recut
> the nut, alter the action. If guitars were made so badly people wouldn't buy
> them. (The exception being the Ebay LP knockoffs :-) )
>
> I'm generalising a bit but basic business sense applies.
>
> Angof
>
>
I agree completely. Today's cheap guitars beat the heck out of what was
available in the 70's. It just pissed me off that a luthier did a cheap job
because it was a cheap guitar. When I returned it, he did the job right.
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
On May 7, 3:19=EF=BF=BDpm, tysteel <tysteel3...@aol . com > wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have a question to ask about setups...
>
> I purchased an Yamaha EG303 guitar from a pawn shop awhile back, and
> about a couple of months ago I took it to a local guitar shop for a
> set up.
>
> The person working behind the counter told me that they had a backlog
> and it would take about a week or so to adjust and set up the guitar
> properly. =EF=BF=BD I was informed that as part of the set up they would l=
ower
> the action.
>
> After a week I picked up the guitar from the shop, and they had put
> new strings on it, but it seemed, at least to this "newbie", that they
> really didn't lower the action at all. =EF=BF=BDIn the first place, =EF=BF=
=BDI did
> feel that the action was too high at the nut, which is why I took it
> there in the first place . =EF=BF=BDHopefully I have the terminology
> right..isn't the nut the plastic piece where the strings slot into?
> Well, that's what I'm referring to. =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDI also noticed that=
they didn't
> tighten up the connection on the guitar where the cable that comes
> from the amp plugs into. =EF=BF=BD It was loose when it came in and loose =
when
> it came out. =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDI thought that as part of the setup they a=
re supposed
> to do all of that? =EF=BF=BD I also noticed that several of the strings we=
re
> not in tune after I picked it up from the guitar shop, and when I went
> home I had to tune it up myself. =EF=BF=BDHmmmmmm...
>
> Earlier this morning, =EF=BF=BDI was playing a beatles song called, things=
we
> said today, and my hands were aching all over because I had to keep
> pressing down hard to the strings to get the notes of the chords to
> sound. It shouldn't be that hard if it was properly set up....I've
> been playing guitar for 10 months now.. I think the action is too high
> and probably wasn't really lowered as per my request.
>
> Though I do understand that sometimes a guitar when a guitar to
> brought in for a setup ...there are instances where they can only
> lower it so much because of other "issues". =EF=BF=BD I know this because =
I
> once took an acoustic guitar for a set-up and explicitly asked for the
> action to be lowered, but after they examined the guitar I was told
> that lowering it a whole lot probably wouldn't be possible because
> that particular guitar was a cheap one. =EF=BF=BD The necks are usually ki=
nd
> of warped out of the factory. =EF=BF=BDMaybe that is why they didn't lower=
the
> action enough (if they even bothered) on this electric for similar
> reasons. =EF=BF=BD.
>
> Instead of taking it back to get them to re-adjust it, where they
> would just charge me another $50, I tried to lower it myself.
>
> I took off the plastic piece where the strings slot into, and with a
> knife I cut the notches a little bit deeper. =EF=BF=BD Not a whole
> little...just a little.
>
> I'm not sure I should've done that, although I don't hear any
> rattling. =EF=BF=BD But I know I'm not a guitar "tech" and probably should=
n't
> have messed with it.
>
> I was just wondering if there was a place online where I could order
> another plastic piece that is already cut to the right
> specifications?
>
> Also, I'm wondering that since I'm finding this particular guitar kind
> of cumbersome to play....if it's time just to purchase a better
> quality instrument? =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD I understand that the Yamaha EG303=
is more of
> a beginners guitar, and maybe it's time to move up to something
> else. =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDI also get the feeling that next time I need a "s=
et up", I
> should take it elsewhere.
>
> thanks
Stew Mac has pre-slotted nuts. If you add the minimum order
requirement to the shipping, I think it would cost you about forty
dollars. That's why I would look around locally first.
On May 7, 3:19=EF=BF=BDpm, tysteel <tysteel3...@aol . com > wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have a question to ask about setups...
>
> I purchased an Yamaha EG303 guitar from a pawn shop awhile back, and
> about a couple of months ago I took it to a local guitar shop for a
> set up.
>
> The person working behind the counter told me that they had a backlog
> and it would take about a week or so to adjust and set up the guitar
> properly. =EF=BF=BD I was informed that as part of the set up they would l=
ower
> the action.
>
> After a week I picked up the guitar from the shop, and they had put
> new strings on it, but it seemed, at least to this "newbie", that they
> really didn't lower the action at all. =EF=BF=BDIn the first place, =EF=BF=
=BDI did
> feel that the action was too high at the nut, which is why I took it
> there in the first place . =EF=BF=BDHopefully I have the terminology
> right..isn't the nut the plastic piece where the strings slot into?
> Well, that's what I'm referring to. =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDI also noticed that=
they didn't
> tighten up the connection on the guitar where the cable that comes
> from the amp plugs into. =EF=BF=BD It was loose when it came in and loose =
when
> it came out. =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDI thought that as part of the setup they a=
re supposed
> to do all of that? =EF=BF=BD I also noticed that several of the strings we=
re
> not in tune after I picked it up from the guitar shop, and when I went
> home I had to tune it up myself. =EF=BF=BDHmmmmmm...
>
> Earlier this morning, =EF=BF=BDI was playing a beatles song called, things=
we
> said today, and my hands were aching all over because I had to keep
> pressing down hard to the strings to get the notes of the chords to
> sound. It shouldn't be that hard if it was properly set up....I've
> been playing guitar for 10 months now.. I think the action is too high
> and probably wasn't really lowered as per my request.
>
> Though I do understand that sometimes a guitar when a guitar to
> brought in for a setup ...there are instances where they can only
> lower it so much because of other "issues". =EF=BF=BD I know this because =
I
> once took an acoustic guitar for a set-up and explicitly asked for the
> action to be lowered, but after they examined the guitar I was told
> that lowering it a whole lot probably wouldn't be possible because
> that particular guitar was a cheap one. =EF=BF=BD The necks are usually ki=
nd
> of warped out of the factory. =EF=BF=BDMaybe that is why they didn't lower=
the
> action enough (if they even bothered) on this electric for similar
> reasons. =EF=BF=BD.
>
> Instead of taking it back to get them to re-adjust it, where they
> would just charge me another $50, I tried to lower it myself.
>
> I took off the plastic piece where the strings slot into, and with a
> knife I cut the notches a little bit deeper. =EF=BF=BD Not a whole
> little...just a little.
>
> I'm not sure I should've done that, although I don't hear any
> rattling. =EF=BF=BD But I know I'm not a guitar "tech" and probably should=
n't
> have messed with it.
>
> I was just wondering if there was a place online where I could order
> another plastic piece that is already cut to the right
> specifications?
>
> Also, I'm wondering that since I'm finding this particular guitar kind
> of cumbersome to play....if it's time just to purchase a better
> quality instrument? =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD I understand that the Yamaha EG303=
is more of
> a beginners guitar, and maybe it's time to move up to something
> else. =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BDI also get the feeling that next time I need a "s=
et up", I
> should take it elsewhere.
>
> thanks
Stew Mac has pre-slotted nuts. If you add the minimum order
requirement to the shipping, I think it would cost you about forty
dollars. That's why I would look around locally first.
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
Muso wrote:
> Stew Mac has pre-slotted nuts. If you add the minimum order
> requirement to the shipping, I think it would cost you about forty
> dollars. That's why I would look around locally first.
It still needs to be fitted.
A nut is NOT a drop in part.
That's the whole purpose of the setup,
to adjust and fit the tiny tolerances together.
A new, hand carved nut, properly setup should
cost about $20 installed from a good luthier.
You can't beat that by buying a $5 slotted nut
and then trying to make it fit.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com
Muso wrote:
> Stew Mac has pre-slotted nuts. If you add the minimum order
> requirement to the shipping, I think it would cost you about forty
> dollars. That's why I would look around locally first.
It still needs to be fitted.
A nut is NOT a drop in part.
That's the whole purpose of the setup,
to adjust and fit the tiny tolerances together.
A new, hand carved nut, properly setup should
cost about $20 installed from a good luthier.
You can't beat that by buying a $5 slotted nut
and then trying to make it fit.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
On May 7, 11:16 pm, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography . com > wrote:
>
> A new, hand carved nut, properly setup should
> cost about $20 installed from a good luthier.
> You can't beat that by buying a $5 slotted nut
> and then trying to make it fit.
>
> Lumpy
>
> In Your Ears for 40 Years
> w w w .LumpyMusic . com
Twnety dollars to cut and install a new nut? In what year? The bloody
blanks are closing on $10 bulk (and that's for a cheap TusQ)...if you
think you'll get one shaped, slotted and installed for $20, then it
won't be from "a good luthier". Expect $50 - $75 for a properly cut
and installed nut from a professional...plus the cost of the
blank...and that is assuming there are no other issues to address
first (like frets, neck or saddle issues, which need fixing before the
nut can be accurately cut....you can add an extra $25 for a 12
string).
Again, you don't need a luthier to do any of this...indeed, many
luthiers won't touch guitars.. . it isn't what they do or even what they
build (I'm guessing you don't want to argue that one again, do you
Lump?). There are technicians all over the world who do these types of
adjustments all day - everyday...some are good and take the time to
learn about your playing style, preferences, etc...and some are cookie
cutters who assume they know what you want without talking to
you...you pick the ones you prefer...ask around...find one who is
recommended by players in your area.
I happen to agree that it is cheaper by far to have someone do it for
you...first, because they already have all of the proper tools and
second, they also have the experience to do the job properly. Sure, it
can be cobbled with cludged up tools like micro files and the likes,
but there is no substitute for experience and while an inexperienced
person might do a credible job with the right tools, it is highly
unlikely that they will come even close to a good nut slot (with no
binding and no ledges and no string movement) using a jewellers cant
saw file. A nut seating file alone costs the price of a full
replacement, and that isn't even looking a the various nut slot files
and micromesh polishing that you'll want to do the job right.
IMHO, The biggest problem with pre-slotted nuts is the depth and width
of the slots, so you still need slot files...and the nut seat still
needs to be prepared. On the4other hand, the biggest plus of these pre-
cut jobbies is that the slot spacing is already calculated, so as long
as you get one to fit your neck width, you wont have some strange
spacings cuz you forgot to compensate for the thickness of each
string.
To the OP. It may be the guitar, but I doubt it. If you are not happy
with the setup, bring it back and explain that you did not have it
setup to your specifications...IMHO, there is no way that a technician
should setup you guitar when you aren't there...at least not until
they know how you play, what you play, where you fret, how hard you
press, where you like to play most on the fingerboard and a host of
other particulars that help guide the technician to your perfect
setup. Keep in mind, a setup is not simply "how low can you go", it
needs to bring out the best in the way you play.
-CS
On May 7, 11:16 pm, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography . com > wrote:
>
> A new, hand carved nut, properly setup should
> cost about $20 installed from a good luthier.
> You can't beat that by buying a $5 slotted nut
> and then trying to make it fit.
>
> Lumpy
>
> In Your Ears for 40 Years
> w w w .LumpyMusic . com
Twnety dollars to cut and install a new nut? In what year? The bloody
blanks are closing on $10 bulk (and that's for a cheap TusQ)...if you
think you'll get one shaped, slotted and installed for $20, then it
won't be from "a good luthier". Expect $50 - $75 for a properly cut
and installed nut from a professional...plus the cost of the
blank...and that is assuming there are no other issues to address
first (like frets, neck or saddle issues, which need fixing before the
nut can be accurately cut....you can add an extra $25 for a 12
string).
Again, you don't need a luthier to do any of this...indeed, many
luthiers won't touch guitars.. . it isn't what they do or even what they
build (I'm guessing you don't want to argue that one again, do you
Lump?). There are technicians all over the world who do these types of
adjustments all day - everyday...some are good and take the time to
learn about your playing style, preferences, etc...and some are cookie
cutters who assume they know what you want without talking to
you...you pick the ones you prefer...ask around...find one who is
recommended by players in your area.
I happen to agree that it is cheaper by far to have someone do it for
you...first, because they already have all of the proper tools and
second, they also have the experience to do the job properly. Sure, it
can be cobbled with cludged up tools like micro files and the likes,
but there is no substitute for experience and while an inexperienced
person might do a credible job with the right tools, it is highly
unlikely that they will come even close to a good nut slot (with no
binding and no ledges and no string movement) using a jewellers cant
saw file. A nut seating file alone costs the price of a full
replacement, and that isn't even looking a the various nut slot files
and micromesh polishing that you'll want to do the job right.
IMHO, The biggest problem with pre-slotted nuts is the depth and width
of the slots, so you still need slot files...and the nut seat still
needs to be prepared. On the4other hand, the biggest plus of these pre-
cut jobbies is that the slot spacing is already calculated, so as long
as you get one to fit your neck width, you wont have some strange
spacings cuz you forgot to compensate for the thickness of each
string.
To the OP. It may be the guitar, but I doubt it. If you are not happy
with the setup, bring it back and explain that you did not have it
setup to your specifications...IMHO, there is no way that a technician
should setup you guitar when you aren't there...at least not until
they know how you play, what you play, where you fret, how hard you
press, where you like to play most on the fingerboard and a host of
other particulars that help guide the technician to your perfect
setup. Keep in mind, a setup is not simply "how low can you go", it
needs to bring out the best in the way you play.
-CS
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
Cyber,
I agree with you that the cost of installing a new nut is around $60. If
Lumpy can get a new nut for $20 then I'm amazed.
I think that you have a real ego problem with this luthier vs, guitar
tech thing. I use the word luthier to describe a person who builds and
repairs guitars. Some are good, some aren't. Your notion that luthiers do
not repair guitars is strange. The local paper (Raleigh News & Observer
5/4/08) ran a Sunday feature about a man who makes fine stringed instruments
mostly violins and violas. He's been in business since the early 80s. He
makes about 3 instruments per year. Without repairs and adjustments he could
not earn a living. This is just as true for luthiers. Most depend on
repairs. From your postings it seems that you think a luthier is a man who
builds a guitar and then manages a factory which cranks out copies of his
design. I suspect that is very rare.
Dave M.
Cyber,
I agree with you that the cost of installing a new nut is around $60. If
Lumpy can get a new nut for $20 then I'm amazed.
I think that you have a real ego problem with this luthier vs, guitar
tech thing. I use the word luthier to describe a person who builds and
repairs guitars. Some are good, some aren't. Your notion that luthiers do
not repair guitars is strange. The local paper (Raleigh News & Observer
5/4/08) ran a Sunday feature about a man who makes fine stringed instruments
mostly violins and violas. He's been in business since the early 80s. He
makes about 3 instruments per year. Without repairs and adjustments he could
not earn a living. This is just as true for luthiers. Most depend on
repairs. From your postings it seems that you think a luthier is a man who
builds a guitar and then manages a factory which cranks out copies of his
design. I suspect that is very rare.
Dave M.
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
On May 8, 12:19 pm, "David L. Martel" <marte...@earthlink . net > wrote:
> Cyber,
>
> I agree with you that the cost of installing a new nut is around $60. If
> Lumpy can get a new nut for $20 then I'm amazed.
> I think that you have a real ego problem with this luthier vs, guitar
> tech thing.
It isn't really about me..my only issue is that this is a beginners
forum and it rests on those with more experience to speak precisely,
converse civilly and answer helpfully...muddying the distinction
between two professions does not achieve any of these goals.
In my experience,
Do most luthiers build guitars...No.
Do some luthiers build guitars...Yes.
Do some luthiers repair guitars...Yes.
Do most luthiers repair guitars... No.
Do most luthiers who build guitars repair them...No
If you doubt me (and why shouldn't you), go to a NAMM show or the
Montreal Guitar Show and talk to some guitar builders...there is no
doubt that some do repairs, but the more successful they are as
builders, the less likely they are to 1) have to supplement their
income with repairs of others peoples instruments and 2) have the
time to fiddle with someone else's axe.
I just finished a stint in a Luthiers shop (about 2 years while my new
shop got built). This gentleman builds guitars all day long...every
day...He has half a dozen going at once at different stages of
construction. He also advertises repairs (though he doesn't have many
of the more specialized tools). His shop is big, he hires people to
help with his construction. These people help with the repairs...while
I was there, I ran the repair side of his business...'cuz he didn't
have the time...he got others to do it for him.
On his own, he didn't have the dyes or pigment collections to match
the finishes that came through the doors, he didn't have supplies for
all the types of finishes, He didn't have many Cauls that I could use
and very limited selection of hardware that was useful to me...this is
the thing...when you do repairs for many years, you get quite the
inventory of parts...some of these come in really handy...you also
have every size of nut blanks, saddle configuration and material (not
just the ones used in the construction of *your* models). He didn't
have the various other (many home made) tools needed to disassemble an
instrument and put it back together with minor cosmetic damage....Many
smaller luthiers hey don't have the benches free, they don't have the
room to store building *and* repair supplies, they don't have the time
to go through all the hoops to become a warranty repair shops for some
other maker, they build guitars and their idea of repairs are often
quite different from what you'd get from someone who doesn't build,
but only repairs.
Guitar builder supplementing his income by fixing
guitars...absolutely, you do what you gotta do to eat. But if (s)he
had a choice, I'm sure there'd be more guitars in the world.
> I use the word luthier to describe a person who builds and repairs guitars.
Then you aren't using the term correctly. A luthier builds stringed
instruments...some of them do repairs. A guitar is only a single type
of stringed instruments. The tools used to build guitars and repair
them are sometimes similar, sometimes very different from those used
to repair a guitar. The supplies needed to repair a guitar
(particularly one that you did not build to start with) are not
necessarily those needed to build one from scratch. The skills to
splint a crack are not those needed to join and brace a top.
> Some are good, some aren't. Your notion that luthiers do
> not repair guitars is strange. The local paper (Raleigh News & Observer
> 5/4/08) ran a Sunday feature about a man who makes fine stringed instruments
> mostly violins and violas. He's been in business since the early 80s. He
> makes about 3 instruments per year. Without repairs and adjustments he could
> not earn a living.
Concert Quality Violins start at around $25K, Violas, double to triple
that...no a bad income....and its kept him going for a couple of
decades... This kind of output isn't outrageous for quality...but if
he could build more and repair less, I've no doubt what his preference
would be. Nevertheless, there is lots of competition for the same
realitively small group of buyers (those with the requirements of an
orchestra quality instrument)...the bad, mediocre and only good makers
suffer equallly as word of mouth funnels all the new graduates
towards specific name builders (or if they have grants and spare
change, towards the nearest auction house for a vintage hunk of
wood).
> This is just as true for luthiers.
The gentleman you spoke of, is a true luthier...look under luthier in
the yellow pages.. . it ain't all guitars by a long shot...a least not
around these parts.
> Most depend on repairs.
Here is the point where we really diverge...I do not know what most
luthiers do (as you and others seem to know)...but I do know what the
few hundred that I have spoken to over the decades do (some of whom I
continue to communicate with professionally and socially) and what
they do does not jibe with what your or other are claiming is
fact...for one thing, many do not build guitars. Period...and of those
who do, most are too busy building their own instruments.. . fr ankly, if
the luthier is busy removing a fingerboard with a heated spokave, he
isn't very busy building his own creations....and if he isn't very
busy, perhaps he has no orders...and if he has no orders, perhaps his
instruments aren't very good...word of mouth is how it all happens. So
are you a tech supplementing your income building instruments or are
you a luthier supplementing your income as a tech? Very blurry. In any
event, I think there are far too many people calling themselves
luthiers just because they can put a Stewmac Kit together...if these
are the "luthiers" who have the time for your instrument, well...you
get what you pay for.
If you're an artist, paint a canvas, not a house.
> From your postings it seems that you think a luthier is a man who
> builds a guitar and then manages a factory which cranks out copies of his
> design. I suspect that is very rare.
How do you get that from my post...because I think Bob Taylor is a
luthier? What I think is that a luthier is a person who builds
stringed instruments (such as guitars). I get that from the dictionary
Period. Whether like, Leo Fender or Bob Taylor or Jean Larrivee, they
have parlayed successful designs into a business is not the point.
Fact is, if you are building, you may not have the time, space and
inclination to do "side" jobs.
Again, it's a beginners forum...I'm just trying to provide
information.
>
> Dave M.
Regards, CS
On May 8, 12:19 pm, "David L. Martel" <marte...@earthlink . net > wrote:
> Cyber,
>
> I agree with you that the cost of installing a new nut is around $60. If
> Lumpy can get a new nut for $20 then I'm amazed.
> I think that you have a real ego problem with this luthier vs, guitar
> tech thing.
It isn't really about me..my only issue is that this is a beginners
forum and it rests on those with more experience to speak precisely,
converse civilly and answer helpfully...muddying the distinction
between two professions does not achieve any of these goals.
In my experience,
Do most luthiers build guitars...No.
Do some luthiers build guitars...Yes.
Do some luthiers repair guitars...Yes.
Do most luthiers repair guitars... No.
Do most luthiers who build guitars repair them...No
If you doubt me (and why shouldn't you), go to a NAMM show or the
Montreal Guitar Show and talk to some guitar builders...there is no
doubt that some do repairs, but the more successful they are as
builders, the less likely they are to 1) have to supplement their
income with repairs of others peoples instruments and 2) have the
time to fiddle with someone else's axe.
I just finished a stint in a Luthiers shop (about 2 years while my new
shop got built). This gentleman builds guitars all day long...every
day...He has half a dozen going at once at different stages of
construction. He also advertises repairs (though he doesn't have many
of the more specialized tools). His shop is big, he hires people to
help with his construction. These people help with the repairs...while
I was there, I ran the repair side of his business...'cuz he didn't
have the time...he got others to do it for him.
On his own, he didn't have the dyes or pigment collections to match
the finishes that came through the doors, he didn't have supplies for
all the types of finishes, He didn't have many Cauls that I could use
and very limited selection of hardware that was useful to me...this is
the thing...when you do repairs for many years, you get quite the
inventory of parts...some of these come in really handy...you also
have every size of nut blanks, saddle configuration and material (not
just the ones used in the construction of *your* models). He didn't
have the various other (many home made) tools needed to disassemble an
instrument and put it back together with minor cosmetic damage....Many
smaller luthiers hey don't have the benches free, they don't have the
room to store building *and* repair supplies, they don't have the time
to go through all the hoops to become a warranty repair shops for some
other maker, they build guitars and their idea of repairs are often
quite different from what you'd get from someone who doesn't build,
but only repairs.
Guitar builder supplementing his income by fixing
guitars...absolutely, you do what you gotta do to eat. But if (s)he
had a choice, I'm sure there'd be more guitars in the world.
> I use the word luthier to describe a person who builds and repairs guitars.
Then you aren't using the term correctly. A luthier builds stringed
instruments...some of them do repairs. A guitar is only a single type
of stringed instruments. The tools used to build guitars and repair
them are sometimes similar, sometimes very different from those used
to repair a guitar. The supplies needed to repair a guitar
(particularly one that you did not build to start with) are not
necessarily those needed to build one from scratch. The skills to
splint a crack are not those needed to join and brace a top.
> Some are good, some aren't. Your notion that luthiers do
> not repair guitars is strange. The local paper (Raleigh News & Observer
> 5/4/08) ran a Sunday feature about a man who makes fine stringed instruments
> mostly violins and violas. He's been in business since the early 80s. He
> makes about 3 instruments per year. Without repairs and adjustments he could
> not earn a living.
Concert Quality Violins start at around $25K, Violas, double to triple
that...no a bad income....and its kept him going for a couple of
decades... This kind of output isn't outrageous for quality...but if
he could build more and repair less, I've no doubt what his preference
would be. Nevertheless, there is lots of competition for the same
realitively small group of buyers (those with the requirements of an
orchestra quality instrument)...the bad, mediocre and only good makers
suffer equallly as word of mouth funnels all the new graduates
towards specific name builders (or if they have grants and spare
change, towards the nearest auction house for a vintage hunk of
wood).
> This is just as true for luthiers.
The gentleman you spoke of, is a true luthier...look under luthier in
the yellow pages.. . it ain't all guitars by a long shot...a least not
around these parts.
> Most depend on repairs.
Here is the point where we really diverge...I do not know what most
luthiers do (as you and others seem to know)...but I do know what the
few hundred that I have spoken to over the decades do (some of whom I
continue to communicate with professionally and socially) and what
they do does not jibe with what your or other are claiming is
fact...for one thing, many do not build guitars. Period...and of those
who do, most are too busy building their own instruments.. . fr ankly, if
the luthier is busy removing a fingerboard with a heated spokave, he
isn't very busy building his own creations....and if he isn't very
busy, perhaps he has no orders...and if he has no orders, perhaps his
instruments aren't very good...word of mouth is how it all happens. So
are you a tech supplementing your income building instruments or are
you a luthier supplementing your income as a tech? Very blurry. In any
event, I think there are far too many people calling themselves
luthiers just because they can put a Stewmac Kit together...if these
are the "luthiers" who have the time for your instrument, well...you
get what you pay for.
If you're an artist, paint a canvas, not a house.
> From your postings it seems that you think a luthier is a man who
> builds a guitar and then manages a factory which cranks out copies of his
> design. I suspect that is very rare.
How do you get that from my post...because I think Bob Taylor is a
luthier? What I think is that a luthier is a person who builds
stringed instruments (such as guitars). I get that from the dictionary
Period. Whether like, Leo Fender or Bob Taylor or Jean Larrivee, they
have parlayed successful designs into a business is not the point.
Fact is, if you are building, you may not have the time, space and
inclination to do "side" jobs.
Again, it's a beginners forum...I'm just trying to provide
information.
>
> Dave M.
Regards, CS
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
Cyberserf wrote:
> In my experience,
> Do most luthiers build guitars...No.
> Do some luthiers build guitars...Yes.
> Do some luthiers repair guitars...Yes.
> Do most luthiers repair guitars... No.
> Do most luthiers who build guitars repair them...No
I see the problem with the argument.
I would guess that even the simplest of minds
would take for granted that we're talking
about GUITAR luthiers. You seem to want to
include every flavor of luthier into your
testimony.
My dental tech, my front end alignment tech
and my vet tech, don't do guitars.
My dental tech is quite comfortable with
the idea that the dentist is more quailfied
to work on teeth than she is. Something you
seem to be having a lot of trouble with in
your field.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com
Cyberserf wrote:
> In my experience,
> Do most luthiers build guitars...No.
> Do some luthiers build guitars...Yes.
> Do some luthiers repair guitars...Yes.
> Do most luthiers repair guitars... No.
> Do most luthiers who build guitars repair them...No
I see the problem with the argument.
I would guess that even the simplest of minds
would take for granted that we're talking
about GUITAR luthiers. You seem to want to
include every flavor of luthier into your
testimony.
My dental tech, my front end alignment tech
and my vet tech, don't do guitars.
My dental tech is quite comfortable with
the idea that the dentist is more quailfied
to work on teeth than she is. Something you
seem to be having a lot of trouble with in
your field.
Lumpy
In Your Ears for 40 Years
w w w .LumpyMusic . com
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
Lumpy expounded in news:68n23aF2tk9qsU1@mid.individual . net :
..
> My dental tech is quite comfortable with
> the idea that the dentist is more quailfied
> to work on teeth than she is. Something you
> seem to be having a lot of trouble with in
> your field.
>
> Lumpy
But I'll bet that your dental tech does
bridge-work!
Snark.
** Posted from * w w w .teranews . com **
Lumpy expounded in news:68n23aF2tk9qsU1@mid.individual . net :
..
> My dental tech is quite comfortable with
> the idea that the dentist is more quailfied
> to work on teeth than she is. Something you
> seem to be having a lot of trouble with in
> your field.
>
> Lumpy
But I'll bet that your dental tech does
bridge-work!
Snark.
** Posted from * w w w .teranews . com **
Re: bad set up or low quality guitar?
On May 10, 8:56 pm, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography . com > wrote:
> Cyberserf wrote:
> > In my experience,
> > Do most luthiers build guitars...No.
> > Do some luthiers build guitars...Yes.
> > Do some luthiers repair guitars...Yes.
> > Do most luthiers repair guitars... No.
> > Do most luthiers who build guitars repair them...No
>
> I see the problem with the argument.
> I would guess that even the simplest of minds
> would take for granted that we're talking
> about GUITAR luthiers. You seem to want to
> include every flavor of luthier into your
> testimony.
>
Lumpy...I'm glad the penny dropped...That was one of the many points
that I have been trying to make. In addition, I thank you for the
personal slam...my mind may be simple, but at least it is clear.
Here's my patronizing take on it:
This is a beginners' forum...You tell someone to go to a Luthier to
get their axe fixed whaddya think they're gonna do... look for a
Luthier or look for a Guitar builder? WTF?
> My dental tech, my front end alignment tech
> and my vet tech, don't do guitars.
Thank God.. . it 's enough that we have to deal with your slanted and
myopic take on things...doncha think?
>
> My dental tech is quite comfortable with
> the idea that the dentist is more quailfied
> to work on teeth than she is. Something you
> seem to be having a lot of trouble with in
> your field.
>
> In Your Ears for 40 Years
> w w w .LumpyMusic . com
I am not a dental tech...I do repairs on stringed instruments (not
just guitars...in fact, this week, guitars are in the minority!) all
the live long day (well...I do take a lot of breaks to check on the
net, but knowing that you're here to guide everyone to a "proper"
repair and restoration decision is such a great comfort to me that I
think I'll forego the pleasure of adult conversation in favour of the
CBC)...my dentist and the myriad luthiers that I do know (funny how
many luthiers you can get to know in a single lifetime), do not do
repairs all day long, the former fixes your teeth, and the later
builds your guitars. You figure it out.
For me...practice makes perfect...the more times you do something, the
more chances are that you will get it right (and do it quickly...which
does matter at $75 an hour). In my opinion,.this goes for building and
repairing anything...if what you say where in any way symptomatic of
how the real world operates, then there would be no need for
automotive mechanics...the car companies would fix everything (well
now...they build 'em...aren't they the best to know how to fix them
all...heck...Go ahead and bring your Suzuki to the nearest Chrysler
dealer and see what the outcome will be (God help us, it isn't gonna
be cheap...particularly if the the genuine Chrysler part doesn't fit
in a Swift...doh)).
In any event, since you do neither (builds or repairs), there is no
doubt you know more about both those businesses than I do....I only
make a living at it. LOL.
Best of luck on the speed reading course,
-CS
On May 10, 8:56 pm, "Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography . com > wrote:
> Cyberserf wrote:
> > In my experience,
> > Do most luthiers build guitars...No.
> > Do some luthiers build guitars...Yes.
> > Do some luthiers repair guitars...Yes.
> > Do most luthiers repair guitars... No.
> > Do most luthiers who build guitars repair them...No
>
> I see the problem with the argument.
> I would guess that even the simplest of minds
> would take for granted that we're talking
> about GUITAR luthiers. You seem to want to
> include every flavor of luthier into your
> testimony.
>
Lumpy...I'm glad the penny dropped...That was one of the many points
that I have been trying to make. In addition, I thank you for the
personal slam...my mind may be simple, but at least it is clear.
Here's my patronizing take on it:
This is a beginners' forum...You tell someone to go to a Luthier to
get their axe fixed whaddya think they're gonna do... look for a
Luthier or look for a Guitar builder? WTF?
> My dental tech, my front end alignment tech
> and my vet tech, don't do guitars.
Thank God.. . it 's enough that we have to deal with your slanted and
myopic take on things...doncha think?
>
> My dental tech is quite comfortable with
> the idea that the dentist is more quailfied
> to work on teeth than she is. Something you
> seem to be having a lot of trouble with in
> your field.
>
> In Your Ears for 40 Years
> w w w .LumpyMusic . com
I am not a dental tech...I do repairs on stringed instruments (not
just guitars...in fact, this week, guitars are in the minority!) all
the live long day (well...I do take a lot of breaks to check on the
net, but knowing that you're here to guide everyone to a "proper"
repair and restoration decision is such a great comfort to me that I
think I'll forego the pleasure of adult conversation in favour of the
CBC)...my dentist and the myriad luthiers that I do know (funny how
many luthiers you can get to know in a single lifetime), do not do
repairs all day long, the former fixes your teeth, and the later
builds your guitars. You figure it out.
For me...practice makes perfect...the more times you do something, the
more chances are that you will get it right (and do it quickly...which
does matter at $75 an hour). In my opinion,.this goes for building and
repairing anything...if what you say where in any way symptomatic of
how the real world operates, then there would be no need for
automotive mechanics...the car companies would fix everything (well
now...they build 'em...aren't they the best to know how to fix them
all...heck...Go ahead and bring your Suzuki to the nearest Chrysler
dealer and see what the outcome will be (God help us, it isn't gonna
be cheap...particularly if the the genuine Chrysler part doesn't fit
in a Swift...doh)).
In any event, since you do neither (builds or repairs), there is no
doubt you know more about both those businesses than I do....I only
make a living at it. LOL.
Best of luck on the speed reading course,
-CS
