My band addicted to big-ass PA

My band addicted to big-ass PA

My two guitarists had invested pretty heavily in PA before I joined
the band. Two 18" subs, two 15" mains, three floor monitors (plus in-
ears for one guitarist and the drummer), three power amps (one for
each set), 12-channel mixer, compressor, signal processor, line
conditioners. Going to a gig means filling up two minivans, an SUV and
a pickup truck (I'm counting drums here).

Now, I know this isn't a particularly big rig, but the thing is, they
insist on using this at *every* gig. We have a gig in two weeks with a
cramped band space, the club is about 30 feet wide by about 80 feet
long, and the guitarist is insisting that we have to bring it all. At
our gigs he runs my bass through the subs (I monitor through my combo,
DI'd to the board), both guitars mic'd from their amps, the snare
mic'd to the mains and the kick mic'd to the subs. All vocals and keys
go to the mains. The keys has her own combo, and goes direct to the
board.

I've tried to tell him this is complete -- even ridiculous -- overkill
in small (<200) clubs, that we should just send vocals and keys to the
board and everyone else through their amps, but he insists it's
appropriate to get the best sound quality.

Last night the missus (keys) and I checked out another club that
they'd like to play. The band (five pieces) ran only vocals through
the house PA (15" powered mains, that's it), and their smallish amps
(a BA115, looked like, for the bass) did everything else. Sounded
fine, plenty of bass, loud enough to enjoy and dance to, but not
obnoxiously loud, people were easily chatting at their tables. I'm
afraid we'd drive people away, not to mention we'd eat up a ton of
space unnecessarily.

I don't know how firmly to put my foot down. I think he's just feeling
the need to justify his investment by using it every time. I'm tempted
to say, "Fine, but I'm not going to help you haul it in or out when we
play small gigs," but I don't want to be a prick.

Not sure what to do.

-jb

Re: My band addicted to big-ass PA

John Bigboote wrote:
> My two guitarists had invested pretty heavily in PA before I joined
> the band. Two 18" subs, two 15" mains, three floor monitors (plus in-
> ears for one guitarist and the drummer), three power amps (one for
> each set), 12-channel mixer, compressor, signal processor, line
> conditioners. Going to a gig means filling up two minivans, an SUV and
> a pickup truck (I'm counting drums here).
>
> Now, I know this isn't a particularly big rig, but the thing is, they
> insist on using this at *every* gig. We have a gig in two weeks with a
> cramped band space, the club is about 30 feet wide by about 80 feet
> long, and the guitarist is insisting that we have to bring it all. At
> our gigs he runs my bass through the subs (I monitor through my combo,
> DI'd to the board), both guitars mic'd from their amps, the snare
> mic'd to the mains and the kick mic'd to the subs. All vocals and keys
> go to the mains. The keys has her own combo, and goes direct to the
> board.
>
> I've tried to tell him this is complete -- even ridiculous -- overkill
> in small (<200) clubs, that we should just send vocals and keys to the
> board and everyone else through their amps, but he insists it's
> appropriate to get the best sound quality.
>
> Last night the missus (keys) and I checked out another club that
> they'd like to play. The band (five pieces) ran only vocals through
> the house PA (15" powered mains, that's it), and their smallish amps
> (a BA115, looked like, for the bass) did everything else. Sounded
> fine, plenty of bass, loud enough to enjoy and dance to, but not
> obnoxiously loud, people were easily chatting at their tables. I'm
> afraid we'd drive people away, not to mention we'd eat up a ton of
> space unnecessarily.
>
> I don't know how firmly to put my foot down. I think he's just feeling
> the need to justify his investment by using it every time. I'm tempted
> to say, "Fine, but I'm not going to help you haul it in or out when we
> play small gigs," but I don't want to be a prick.
>
> Not sure what to do.
>
> -jb



Get another band.
I wouldn't be involved hauling 10x what is necessary to a gig just for
someone's ego.

Re: My band addicted to big-ass PA


"John Bigboote" <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:d44cc14e-25a0-43b2-af49-fe070a3bf5da@a5g2000prg.googlegroups . com ...
> My two guitarists had invested pretty heavily in PA before I joined
> the band. Two 18" subs, two 15" mains, three floor monitors (plus in-
> ears for one guitarist and the drummer), three power amps (one for
> each set), 12-channel mixer, compressor, signal processor, line
> conditioners. Going to a gig means filling up two minivans, an SUV and
> a pickup truck (I'm counting drums here).
>
> Now, I know this isn't a particularly big rig, but the thing is, they
> insist on using this at *every* gig. We have a gig in two weeks with a
> cramped band space, the club is about 30 feet wide by about 80 feet
> long, and the guitarist is insisting that we have to bring it all. At
> our gigs he runs my bass through the subs (I monitor through my combo,
> DI'd to the board), both guitars mic'd from their amps, the snare
> mic'd to the mains and the kick mic'd to the subs. All vocals and keys
> go to the mains. The keys has her own combo, and goes direct to the
> board.
>
> I've tried to tell him this is complete -- even ridiculous -- overkill
> in small (<200) clubs, that we should just send vocals and keys to the
> board and everyone else through their amps, but he insists it's
> appropriate to get the best sound quality.
>
> Last night the missus (keys) and I checked out another club that
> they'd like to play. The band (five pieces) ran only vocals through
> the house PA (15" powered mains, that's it), and their smallish amps
> (a BA115, looked like, for the bass) did everything else. Sounded
> fine, plenty of bass, loud enough to enjoy and dance to, but not
> obnoxiously loud, people were easily chatting at their tables. I'm
> afraid we'd drive people away, not to mention we'd eat up a ton of
> space unnecessarily.
>
> I don't know how firmly to put my foot down. I think he's just feeling
> the need to justify his investment by using it every time. I'm tempted
> to say, "Fine, but I'm not going to help you haul it in or out when we
> play small gigs," but I don't want to be a prick.
>
> Not sure what to do.
>
> -jb


How are your acting skills? I recommend that you "hurt" your back. Also if
it is your SUV or pickup truck, I would recommend that you borrow another
car for a while and tell them that your truck is in the shop.

Let them schlep around the PA for a while and find a truck to move it. They
will soon learn that it is just to much work... . es pecially if they have to
move it.

-DA

Re: My band addicted to big-ass PA

"David Axt" <daxt@NADASPAMpacifier . com > writes:

> How are your acting skills? I recommend that you "hurt" your back. Also if
> it is your SUV or pickup truck, I would recommend that you borrow another
> car for a while and tell them that your truck is in the shop.
>
> Let them schlep around the PA for a while and find a truck to move it. They
> will soon learn that it is just to much work... . es pecially if they have to
> move it.

David, this is brilliant.

--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | * w w w .toddh . net /
X Promoting good netiquette |
/ \ * w w w .toddh . net /netiquette/ | * myspace . com /bmiawmb

Re: My band addicted to big-ass PA

that's waaaaaaaaay too much stuff...

any place we play that doesn't have a house PA, we use our setup:
Carvin 8 channel 1200W mixer
2 15" JBL mains
2 or 3 12" JBL monitors (2 upfront, one for drummer if necessary)
Guitars and Bass go through the amps and that's it. (I use a 300W Ashdown
Mag 2-10 combo, w/15" extension cab, guitarists use Fender stuff)
When we had a keyboardist he went through his Roland amp.
Other than vocals, only our sax player went through the PA.

Now, that said, that setup was loud enough in a large gymnasium that people
asked us to turn down.
I use a wireless setup and walk around to check the sound. At the back of
the room it was plenty loud. Everything cut through fine.

Ditch the subs and power amps, run vox only through PA. People will
actually hear themselves think.
If they don't agree, find another band... or make them carry it all and set
it all up. They'll get tired of it in a hurry.

too much shit through the PA's muddies up the sound, makes the vocals hard
to hear.




"John Bigboote" <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:d44cc14e-25a0-43b2-af49-fe070a3bf5da@a5g2000prg.googlegroups . com ...
> My two guitarists had invested pretty heavily in PA before I joined
> the band. Two 18" subs, two 15" mains, three floor monitors (plus in-
> ears for one guitarist and the drummer), three power amps (one for
> each set), 12-channel mixer, compressor, signal processor, line
> conditioners. Going to a gig means filling up two minivans, an SUV and
> a pickup truck (I'm counting drums here).
>
> Now, I know this isn't a particularly big rig, but the thing is, they
> insist on using this at *every* gig. We have a gig in two weeks with a
> cramped band space, the club is about 30 feet wide by about 80 feet
> long, and the guitarist is insisting that we have to bring it all. At
> our gigs he runs my bass through the subs (I monitor through my combo,
> DI'd to the board), both guitars mic'd from their amps, the snare
> mic'd to the mains and the kick mic'd to the subs. All vocals and keys
> go to the mains. The keys has her own combo, and goes direct to the
> board.
>
> I've tried to tell him this is complete -- even ridiculous -- overkill
> in small (<200) clubs, that we should just send vocals and keys to the
> board and everyone else through their amps, but he insists it's
> appropriate to get the best sound quality.
>
> Last night the missus (keys) and I checked out another club that
> they'd like to play. The band (five pieces) ran only vocals through
> the house PA (15" powered mains, that's it), and their smallish amps
> (a BA115, looked like, for the bass) did everything else. Sounded
> fine, plenty of bass, loud enough to enjoy and dance to, but not
> obnoxiously loud, people were easily chatting at their tables. I'm
> afraid we'd drive people away, not to mention we'd eat up a ton of
> space unnecessarily.
>
> I don't know how firmly to put my foot down. I think he's just feeling
> the need to justify his investment by using it every time. I'm tempted
> to say, "Fine, but I'm not going to help you haul it in or out when we
> play small gigs," but I don't want to be a prick.
>
> Not sure what to do.
>
> -jb

Re: My band addicted to big-ass PA


"John Bigboote" <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:d44cc14e-25a0-43b2-af49-fe070a3bf5da@a5g2000prg.googlegroups . com ...
> My two guitarists had invested pretty heavily in PA before I joined
> the band. Two 18" subs, two 15" mains, three floor monitors (plus in-
> ears for one guitarist and the drummer), three power amps (one for
> each set), 12-channel mixer, compressor, signal processor, line
> conditioners. Going to a gig means filling up two minivans, an SUV and
> a pickup truck (I'm counting drums here).
>
> Now, I know this isn't a particularly big rig, but the thing is, they
> insist on using this at *every* gig. We have a gig in two weeks with a
> cramped band space, the club is about 30 feet wide by about 80 feet
> long, and the guitarist is insisting that we have to bring it all. At
> our gigs he runs my bass through the subs (I monitor through my combo,
> DI'd to the board), both guitars mic'd from their amps, the snare
> mic'd to the mains and the kick mic'd to the subs. All vocals and keys
> go to the mains. The keys has her own combo, and goes direct to the
> board.
>
> I've tried to tell him this is complete -- even ridiculous -- overkill
> in small (<200) clubs, that we should just send vocals and keys to the
> board and everyone else through their amps, but he insists it's
> appropriate to get the best sound quality.
>
> Last night the missus (keys) and I checked out another club that
> they'd like to play. The band (five pieces) ran only vocals through
> the house PA (15" powered mains, that's it), and their smallish amps
> (a BA115, looked like, for the bass) did everything else. Sounded
> fine, plenty of bass, loud enough to enjoy and dance to, but not
> obnoxiously loud, people were easily chatting at their tables. I'm
> afraid we'd drive people away, not to mention we'd eat up a ton of
> space unnecessarily.
>
> I don't know how firmly to put my foot down. I think he's just feeling
> the need to justify his investment by using it every time. I'm tempted
> to say, "Fine, but I'm not going to help you haul it in or out when we
> play small gigs," but I don't want to be a prick.
>
> Not sure what to do.
>
> -jb

Just a couple of thoughts, John. First off I agree with you about the
overkill thing. However, it's a lot easier to get a balanced sound in a
hurry when everything is on the same mixing board. I have often dealt with
deaf guitar players who set up WAY too loud to hear the vocals. If everyone
cooperates you can get an excellent sound with independent amps and just
vocals on the pa, but unfortunately it seldom works that way and running
everything to one pa board is a good solution. Looking at your equipment
list, I would suggest ditching the subs and at least one of the monitors.
That should give you all you need for reasonable sized venues. With the
setup you describe (15"mains) there is almost nothing going to the subs
except your bass. You might suggest to the guitar players that you don't
like what the sub does to your sound when you can get by without it and no
one else is really using it. (Check where your cross over is set). When
your combo can't fill the room then you might need the subs but only then.
Now I know that the subs do help fill out the sound for everyone but I also
know that they are usually overkill as you indicate.

Gerry

Re: My band addicted to big-ass PA

pTooner wrote:

> Just a couple of thoughts, John. First off I agree with you about the
> overkill thing. However, it's a lot easier to get a balanced sound in a
> hurry when everything is on the same mixing board.

My experience is different. If you have have a dedicated sound guy and
the venue already has all that gear in place, you *might* be able to get
dialed in faster, but I doubt it. Just placing and trimming all the mics
takes longer than a quick sound check. If you're hauling the gear
yourself, there's just no way it's faster.

If you've got issues with your guitarist being too loud, learn to deal
with it. If you can't get him to manage his sound, then going through
the PA won't help much. He'll still find ways to screw it up.

The best sounding bands in my experience just run the vocals through the
PA. The sound is so much more clear and open compared to bands pushing
everything through the PA. If the size of the venue permits it, I'll
always choose a vocals-only PA setup.

Re: My band addicted to big-ass PA

On Apr 20, 3:36 pm, Jim Carr <newsgro...@azwebpages . com > wrote:
> pTooner wrote:
> > Just a couple of thoughts, John.  First off I agree with you about the=

> > overkill thing.  However, it's a lot easier to get a balanced sound in=
a
> > hurry when everything is on the same mixing board.  
>
> My experience is different. If you have have a dedicated sound guy and
> the venue already has all that gear in place, you *might* be able to get
> dialed in faster, but I doubt it. Just placing and trimming all the mics
> takes longer than a quick sound check. If you're hauling the gear
> yourself, there's just no way it's faster.
>
> If you've got issues with your guitarist being too loud, learn to deal
> with it. If you can't get him to manage his sound, then going through
> the PA won't help much. He'll still find ways to screw it up.
>
> The best sounding bands in my experience just run the vocals through the
> PA. The sound is so much more clear and open compared to bands pushing
> everything through the PA. If the size of the venue permits it, I'll
> always choose a vocals-only PA setup.

I agree with Jim, with the caveat that I REALLY like a little kick in
the mains. Please not the word LITTLE in that last sentence.

Corey

Re: My band addicted to big-ass PA

coreybenson wrote:
> On Apr 20, 3:36 pm, Jim Carr <newsgro...@azwebpages . com > wrote:
>> pTooner wrote:
>>> Just a couple of thoughts, John. First off I agree with you about the
>>> overkill thing. However, it's a lot easier to get a balanced sound in a
>>> hurry when everything is on the same mixing board.
>> My experience is different. If you have have a dedicated sound guy and
>> the venue already has all that gear in place, you *might* be able to get
>> dialed in faster, but I doubt it. Just placing and trimming all the mics
>> takes longer than a quick sound check. If you're hauling the gear
>> yourself, there's just no way it's faster.
>>
>> If you've got issues with your guitarist being too loud, learn to deal
>> with it. If you can't get him to manage his sound, then going through
>> the PA won't help much. He'll still find ways to screw it up.
>>
>> The best sounding bands in my experience just run the vocals through the
>> PA. The sound is so much more clear and open compared to bands pushing
>> everything through the PA. If the size of the venue permits it, I'll
>> always choose a vocals-only PA setup.
>
> I agree with Jim, with the caveat that I REALLY like a little kick in
> the mains. Please not the word LITTLE in that last sentence.

I agree - a touch of kick can be just what the doctor ordered.

--
Write a wise saying and your name will live forever.
- Anonymous

Re: My band addicted to big-ass PA

> I agree with Jim, with the caveat that I REALLY like a little kick in
> the mains.

Isn't it odd that some manufacturer hasn't come up with an amp
specifically for bass drum? Or a bass-drum mic that's high-impedance
and unbalanced so it could plug right into a bass combo amp?

> Please not the word LITTLE in that last sentence.

No.

Re: My band addicted to big-ass PA

On Apr 21, 1:59 pm, Brian Running <brunn...@XXameritechXX . net > wrote:
> > I agree with Jim, with the caveat that I REALLY like a little kick in
> > the mains.
>
> Isn't it odd that some manufacturer hasn't come up with an amp
> specifically for bass drum?  Or a bass-drum mic that's high-impedance
> and unbalanced so it could plug right into a bass combo amp?
>
> > Please not the word LITTLE in that last sentence.
>
> No.

LOL

Read this yesterday and didn't get it! Reread it today and realized
I'd made a typo! Nice!

Corey
* w w w .henryandbuster . com /
Love jokes about dogs? Check out our new Jokes section, and submit
your favorite!

Re: My band addicted to big-ass PA

On Apr 19, 12:33 pm, John Bigboote <Bigboote....@gmail . com > wrote:
> My two guitarists had invested pretty heavily in PA before I joined
> the band. Two 18" subs, two 15" mains, three floor monitors (plus in-
> ears for one guitarist and the drummer), three power amps (one for
> each set), 12-channel mixer, compressor, signal processor, line
> conditioners. Going to a gig means filling up two minivans, an SUV and
> a pickup truck (I'm counting drums here).
>
> Now, I know this isn't a particularly big rig, but the thing is, they
> insist on using this at *every* gig. We have a gig in two weeks with a
> cramped band space, the club is about 30 feet wide by about 80 feet
> long, and the guitarist is insisting that we have to bring it all. At
> our gigs he runs my bass through the subs (I monitor through my combo,
> DI'd to the board), both guitars mic'd from their amps, the snare
> mic'd to the mains and the kick mic'd to the subs. All vocals and keys
> go to the mains. The keys has her own combo, and goes direct to the
> board.
>
> I've tried to tell him this is complete -- even ridiculous -- overkill
> in small (<200) clubs, that we should just send vocals and keys to the
> board and everyone else through their amps, but he insists it's
> appropriate to get the best sound quality.
>
> Last night the missus (keys) and I checked out another club that
> they'd like to play. The band (five pieces) ran only vocals through
> the house PA (15" powered mains, that's it), and their smallish amps
> (a BA115, looked like, for the bass) did everything else. Sounded
> fine, plenty of bass, loud enough to enjoy and dance to, but not
> obnoxiously loud, people were easily chatting at their tables. I'm
> afraid we'd drive people away, not to mention we'd eat up a ton of
> space unnecessarily.
>
> I don't know how firmly to put my foot down. I think he's just feeling
> the need to justify his investment by using it every time. I'm tempted
> to say, "Fine, but I'm not going to help you haul it in or out when we
> play small gigs," but I don't want to be a prick.
>
> Not sure what to do.
>
> -jb

Well, it's cheaper than a gym membership.

Really big PA


"handgunner" <handgunner@cox . net > wrote in message
news:639a6062-c97a-4c23-bf18-6f0b7000a839@8g2000hse.googlegroups . com ...
> On Apr 19, 12:33 pm, John Bigboote <Bigboote....@gmail . com > wrote:
>> My two guitarists had invested pretty heavily in PA before I joined
>> the band. Two 18" subs, two 15" mains, three floor monitors (plus in-
>> ears for one guitarist and the drummer), three power amps (one for
>> each set), 12-channel mixer, compressor, signal processor, line
>> conditioners. Going to a gig means filling up two minivans, an SUV and
>> a pickup truck (I'm counting drums here).
>>
>> Now, I know this isn't a particularly big rig, but the thing is, they
>> insist on using this at *every* gig. We have a gig in two weeks with a
>> cramped band space, the club is about 30 feet wide by about 80 feet
>> long, and the guitarist is insisting that we have to bring it all. At
>> our gigs he runs my bass through the subs (I monitor through my combo,
>> DI'd to the board), both guitars mic'd from their amps, the snare
>> mic'd to the mains and the kick mic'd to the subs. All vocals and keys
>> go to the mains. The keys has her own combo, and goes direct to the
>> board.
>>
>> I've tried to tell him this is complete -- even ridiculous -- overkill
>> in small (<200) clubs, that we should just send vocals and keys to the
>> board and everyone else through their amps, but he insists it's
>> appropriate to get the best sound quality.
>>
>> Last night the missus (keys) and I checked out another club that
>> they'd like to play. The band (five pieces) ran only vocals through
>> the house PA (15" powered mains, that's it), and their smallish amps
>> (a BA115, looked like, for the bass) did everything else. Sounded
>> fine, plenty of bass, loud enough to enjoy and dance to, but not
>> obnoxiously loud, people were easily chatting at their tables. I'm
>> afraid we'd drive people away, not to mention we'd eat up a ton of
>> space unnecessarily.
>>
>> I don't know how firmly to put my foot down. I think he's just feeling
>> the need to justify his investment by using it every time. I'm tempted
>> to say, "Fine, but I'm not going to help you haul it in or out when we
>> play small gigs," but I don't want to be a prick.
>>
>> Not sure what to do.
>>
>> -jb
>
> Well, it's cheaper than a gym membership.

Since we're talking sound - I went to a Reba Mcentyre (I know that isn't
spelled right) show last night. It was in the middle of nowhere (Valdosta
Ga) about 120 miles from here. We're talking outdoor amphitheater and many
megawatts. It was interesting to see how they were using scenes to handle
all the sound switching for solos and such (9 people on stage plus Reba) and
they weren't really as tight with their scene switching as they should have
been. The real sound problem was that they had everything else up so high
they couldn't get her voice on top of it. Many times you couldn't hear the
lyrics at all. I assume it was a new show they were jus breaking in
(Valdosta, Ga, remember) but the sound handling was really disappointing.
OTOH, that was 10 amazing musicians on stage. One of her guitarists played
an acoustic solo for a song intro that I would have sworn was Tommy Emmanuel
if I hadn't seen the guy playing it. The bass player may have been the
weakest link and there was nothing wrong with him. He played the same 5
string throughout and just didn't do anything exciting whereas everyone else
did. One amusing note, Reba was walking toward a female fiddler who had
just changed instruments early in a song when the fiddler (and Reba)
realised that the fiddle wasn't transmitting. Reba made a quick reversal of
direction and walked the spot over to the other side of the stage while a
tech dashed out and told the fiddler to turn on her stupid transmitter. It
was just neatly done, and I'm sure none of the non musicians in the crowd
saw a thing.

Gerry

Re: My band addicted to big-ass PA

On Apr 19, 11:33 am, John Bigboote <Bigboote....@gmail . com > wrote:
> Now, I know this isn't a particularly big rig, but the thing is, they
> insist on using this at *every* gig. We have a gig in two weeks with a
> cramped band space, the club is about 30 feet wide by about 80 feet
> long, and the guitarist is insisting that we have to bring it all. At
> our gigs he runs my bass through the subs (I monitor through my combo,
> DI'd to the board), both guitars mic'd from their amps, the snare
> mic'd to the mains and the kick mic'd to the subs. All vocals and keys
> go to the mains. The keys has her own combo, and goes direct to the
> board.

Ok, first off, tell him to get a frigging CROSSOVER and use his mains
correctly.

2ndly, you're right. This is too much PA for most clubs... BUT, I've
often used a PA just like this and run vocals plus a little kick drum
through it. It's kinda nice to have your tops sitting on top of subs,
if only because you don't have to worry about a stand getting knocked
over. It's also nice to have a little kick in the mains - seems to add
some presence, to me. Again, not the word LITTLE when describing how
much kick to put in the mains.

I have rarely heard a snare drum that NEEDS to be mic'd.

Corey

Re: My band addicted to big-ass PA

In message
<eac16ccd-5ded-48f3-b4b9-c90f73ae7191@q27g2000prf.googlegroups . com >,
coreybenson <coreybenson@gmail . com > writes
>2ndly, you're right. This is too much PA for most clubs...

Really 'too much' can't apply, as you only need to turn it up as loud as
you require - so it 'should' be no louder than a smaller PA.

The only problem really is the actual size of it, and the excessive
transportation problems.

Really with a big PA rig you should design it as 'modular', so for big
gigs you can take the lot, but for smaller gigs you only take a smaller
part of it.
--
Nigel Goodwin
C.Farmer Ltd.
Matlock