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Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
things PA, I could use a little help.
Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
(Duh.)
At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
Plug into the left output only, and you get mono for both signals. We
run a splitter off each keyboard's left (mono) output to a small
mixer, and run one cord to each channel of her amp for monitoring. We
run both her mics (one for vox, one for the wind instruments she
plays) to the small mixer, too, using XLR-to-XLR.
We run the combined keys from one XLR output to the main board. Ditto
the combined mics via the other XLR output.
We have the option of running the keys to the small mixer using 1/4"
mono (TS) cords, or the 1/4" TRS-to-XLRs she uses at home.
Any benefit to using the TRS-to-XLRs, in terms of reducing noise? As I
understand it, these cords could be used for balanced signals (which a
TS could not), but the L/Mono output from the keyboard is not
balanced. But I figure the TRS-to-XLRs will be shielded, so why not?
Only downside is, they're 20' long, and we only need to go about three
feet to the mixer (in the past we've run the 20' cord to the board
from the keyboard when not using the little mixer).
In short, when is a) balanced possible, b) when is there no advantage
to using anything but a 1/4" mono cord, and c) any harm in using a
stereo (TRS) cord in an unbalanced situation?
Man, I'm long-winded today. Sorry.
-jb
Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
things PA, I could use a little help.
Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
(Duh.)
At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
Plug into the left output only, and you get mono for both signals. We
run a splitter off each keyboard's left (mono) output to a small
mixer, and run one cord to each channel of her amp for monitoring. We
run both her mics (one for vox, one for the wind instruments she
plays) to the small mixer, too, using XLR-to-XLR.
We run the combined keys from one XLR output to the main board. Ditto
the combined mics via the other XLR output.
We have the option of running the keys to the small mixer using 1/4"
mono (TS) cords, or the 1/4" TRS-to-XLRs she uses at home.
Any benefit to using the TRS-to-XLRs, in terms of reducing noise? As I
understand it, these cords could be used for balanced signals (which a
TS could not), but the L/Mono output from the keyboard is not
balanced. But I figure the TRS-to-XLRs will be shielded, so why not?
Only downside is, they're 20' long, and we only need to go about three
feet to the mixer (in the past we've run the 20' cord to the board
from the keyboard when not using the little mixer).
In short, when is a) balanced possible, b) when is there no advantage
to using anything but a 1/4" mono cord, and c) any harm in using a
stereo (TRS) cord in an unbalanced situation?
Man, I'm long-winded today. Sorry.
-jb
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
John Bigboote wrote:
> Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
> cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
> the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
> things PA, I could use a little help.
>
> Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>
> (Duh.)
>
> At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
> monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
> sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>
TRS may buy some common mode noise rejection over very long
runs. I am surprised the keyboards have balanced, TRS outputs.
Most are just TS. If the keyboard is TS, you should use TS.
<snip>
>
> -jb
--
Les Cargill
John Bigboote wrote:
> Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
> cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
> the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
> things PA, I could use a little help.
>
> Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>
> (Duh.)
>
> At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
> monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
> sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>
TRS may buy some common mode noise rejection over very long
runs. I am surprised the keyboards have balanced, TRS outputs.
Most are just TS. If the keyboard is TS, you should use TS.
<snip>
>
> -jb
--
Les Cargill
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
On 19 Apr, 16:42, Les Cargill <lcarg...@cfl.rr . com > wrote:
> John Bigboote wrote:
> > Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
> > cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
> > the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
> > things PA, I could use a little help.
>
> > Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>
> > (Duh.)
>
> > At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
> > monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
> > sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>
> TRS may buy some common mode noise rejection over very long
> runs. I am surprised the keyboards have balanced, TRS outputs.
> Most are just TS. If the keyboard is TS, you should use TS.
I believe the keyboard jacks are *not* balanced. I'm wondering if
there's anything wrong with using TRS. In running the keys direct to
the powered monitors and also to the board, we haven't encountered any
problems (IOW, it works, sound comes out, smoke doesn't), so it seems
to be fine. I would think that as long as the jack(s) only engage the
tip and the sleeve, no harm, no foul. But if it straddles sleeve and
ring, or ring and tip, there might be some problem, in the form of
noise. Or not?
I guess I'm trying to better understand what makes a signal line
"balanced." You've got inputs on the mixer that can be either, but
apparently an output is only one or the other. What happens when a
cord has a TRS on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Or just TS
on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Is one pin a dummy then?
Guess that's why they're called "sound engineers." And I'm not.
-jb
On 19 Apr, 16:42, Les Cargill <lcarg...@cfl.rr . com > wrote:
> John Bigboote wrote:
> > Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
> > cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
> > the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
> > things PA, I could use a little help.
>
> > Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>
> > (Duh.)
>
> > At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
> > monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
> > sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>
> TRS may buy some common mode noise rejection over very long
> runs. I am surprised the keyboards have balanced, TRS outputs.
> Most are just TS. If the keyboard is TS, you should use TS.
I believe the keyboard jacks are *not* balanced. I'm wondering if
there's anything wrong with using TRS. In running the keys direct to
the powered monitors and also to the board, we haven't encountered any
problems (IOW, it works, sound comes out, smoke doesn't), so it seems
to be fine. I would think that as long as the jack(s) only engage the
tip and the sleeve, no harm, no foul. But if it straddles sleeve and
ring, or ring and tip, there might be some problem, in the form of
noise. Or not?
I guess I'm trying to better understand what makes a signal line
"balanced." You've got inputs on the mixer that can be either, but
apparently an output is only one or the other. What happens when a
cord has a TRS on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Or just TS
on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Is one pin a dummy then?
Guess that's why they're called "sound engineers." And I'm not.
-jb
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
John Bigboote wrote:
> On 19 Apr, 16:42, Les Cargill <lcarg...@cfl.rr . com > wrote:
>> John Bigboote wrote:
>>> Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
>>> cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
>>> the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
>>> things PA, I could use a little help.
>>> Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>>> (Duh.)
>>> At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
>>> monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
>>> sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>> TRS may buy some common mode noise rejection over very long
>> runs. I am surprised the keyboards have balanced, TRS outputs.
>> Most are just TS. If the keyboard is TS, you should use TS.
>
> I believe the keyboard jacks are *not* balanced. I'm wondering if
> there's anything wrong with using TRS.
Potentially. The R conductor is either hanging open or shorted.
> In running the keys direct to
> the powered monitors and also to the board, we haven't encountered any
> problems (IOW, it works, sound comes out, smoke doesn't), so it seems
> to be fine. I would think that as long as the jack(s) only engage the
> tip and the sleeve, no harm, no foul. But if it straddles sleeve and
> ring, or ring and tip, there might be some problem, in the form of
> noise. Or not?
>
> I guess I'm trying to better understand what makes a signal line
> "balanced."
Balanced just means it's push-pull. Three conductors, one is hot,
one is polarity-reversed hot, the other is ground.
A lot of TRS balanced stuff works unbalanced, though.
> You've got inputs on the mixer that can be either, but
> apparently an output is only one or the other. What happens when a
> cord has a TRS on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Or just TS
> on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Is one pin a dummy then?
>
Behringer makes an eight-way direct box, half rack
space. That's the cheapest way to get four channels of balanced
from four channels of unbalanced.
* w w w .zzounds . com /item--BEHDI800
But if the runs are short enough, use
the 1/4" unbalanced inputs on the PA.
> Guess that's why they're called "sound engineers." And I'm not.
>
> -jb
--
Les Cargill
John Bigboote wrote:
> On 19 Apr, 16:42, Les Cargill <lcarg...@cfl.rr . com > wrote:
>> John Bigboote wrote:
>>> Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
>>> cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
>>> the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
>>> things PA, I could use a little help.
>>> Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>>> (Duh.)
>>> At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
>>> monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
>>> sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>> TRS may buy some common mode noise rejection over very long
>> runs. I am surprised the keyboards have balanced, TRS outputs.
>> Most are just TS. If the keyboard is TS, you should use TS.
>
> I believe the keyboard jacks are *not* balanced. I'm wondering if
> there's anything wrong with using TRS.
Potentially. The R conductor is either hanging open or shorted.
> In running the keys direct to
> the powered monitors and also to the board, we haven't encountered any
> problems (IOW, it works, sound comes out, smoke doesn't), so it seems
> to be fine. I would think that as long as the jack(s) only engage the
> tip and the sleeve, no harm, no foul. But if it straddles sleeve and
> ring, or ring and tip, there might be some problem, in the form of
> noise. Or not?
>
> I guess I'm trying to better understand what makes a signal line
> "balanced."
Balanced just means it's push-pull. Three conductors, one is hot,
one is polarity-reversed hot, the other is ground.
A lot of TRS balanced stuff works unbalanced, though.
> You've got inputs on the mixer that can be either, but
> apparently an output is only one or the other. What happens when a
> cord has a TRS on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Or just TS
> on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Is one pin a dummy then?
>
Behringer makes an eight-way direct box, half rack
space. That's the cheapest way to get four channels of balanced
from four channels of unbalanced.
* w w w .zzounds . com /item--BEHDI800
But if the runs are short enough, use
the 1/4" unbalanced inputs on the PA.
> Guess that's why they're called "sound engineers." And I'm not.
>
> -jb
--
Les Cargill
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
I've got a friend who owns a studio. he does all his instrument runs with
1/4" TRS balanced cable, because he says it helps reduce noise. Since he
runs a project studio with electronic gear and the live room all-in-one,
he's looking for any advantage he can get over noise. I've never done a side
by side comparison, but his stuff is pretty quiet. As long as you don't plug
an active instrument into the TRS, there's no problem.
If the same signal is running on both wires, there *should* be no difference
between TRS and XLR, other than the connector.
The advantage of TRS is that it can be used as part of a "Switching" setup
or as an insert jack. The advantage of XLR is that it makes a tighter
connection and the barrel tends to be more rugged. That's all I know.
Actually, I just bought a 20' cable with a TRS on one side and an XLR on the
other, to plug my upright into my Markbass. So I guess they're compatible.
"John Bigboote" <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:ad5586b1-58fc-449a-af6c-2309c67bc4f0@l28g2000prd.googlegroups . com ...
> On 19 Apr, 16:42, Les Cargill <lcarg...@cfl.rr . com > wrote:
> > John Bigboote wrote:
> > > Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
> > > cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
> > > the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
> > > things PA, I could use a little help.
> >
> > > Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
> >
> > > (Duh.)
> >
> > > At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
> > > monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
> > > sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
> >
> > TRS may buy some common mode noise rejection over very long
> > runs. I am surprised the keyboards have balanced, TRS outputs.
> > Most are just TS. If the keyboard is TS, you should use TS.
>
> I believe the keyboard jacks are *not* balanced. I'm wondering if
> there's anything wrong with using TRS. In running the keys direct to
> the powered monitors and also to the board, we haven't encountered any
> problems (IOW, it works, sound comes out, smoke doesn't), so it seems
> to be fine. I would think that as long as the jack(s) only engage the
> tip and the sleeve, no harm, no foul. But if it straddles sleeve and
> ring, or ring and tip, there might be some problem, in the form of
> noise. Or not?
>
> I guess I'm trying to better understand what makes a signal line
> "balanced." You've got inputs on the mixer that can be either, but
> apparently an output is only one or the other. What happens when a
> cord has a TRS on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Or just TS
> on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Is one pin a dummy then?
>
> Guess that's why they're called "sound engineers." And I'm not.
>
> -jb
I've got a friend who owns a studio. he does all his instrument runs with
1/4" TRS balanced cable, because he says it helps reduce noise. Since he
runs a project studio with electronic gear and the live room all-in-one,
he's looking for any advantage he can get over noise. I've never done a side
by side comparison, but his stuff is pretty quiet. As long as you don't plug
an active instrument into the TRS, there's no problem.
If the same signal is running on both wires, there *should* be no difference
between TRS and XLR, other than the connector.
The advantage of TRS is that it can be used as part of a "Switching" setup
or as an insert jack. The advantage of XLR is that it makes a tighter
connection and the barrel tends to be more rugged. That's all I know.
Actually, I just bought a 20' cable with a TRS on one side and an XLR on the
other, to plug my upright into my Markbass. So I guess they're compatible.
"John Bigboote" <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:ad5586b1-58fc-449a-af6c-2309c67bc4f0@l28g2000prd.googlegroups . com ...
> On 19 Apr, 16:42, Les Cargill <lcarg...@cfl.rr . com > wrote:
> > John Bigboote wrote:
> > > Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
> > > cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
> > > the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
> > > things PA, I could use a little help.
> >
> > > Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
> >
> > > (Duh.)
> >
> > > At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
> > > monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
> > > sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
> >
> > TRS may buy some common mode noise rejection over very long
> > runs. I am surprised the keyboards have balanced, TRS outputs.
> > Most are just TS. If the keyboard is TS, you should use TS.
>
> I believe the keyboard jacks are *not* balanced. I'm wondering if
> there's anything wrong with using TRS. In running the keys direct to
> the powered monitors and also to the board, we haven't encountered any
> problems (IOW, it works, sound comes out, smoke doesn't), so it seems
> to be fine. I would think that as long as the jack(s) only engage the
> tip and the sleeve, no harm, no foul. But if it straddles sleeve and
> ring, or ring and tip, there might be some problem, in the form of
> noise. Or not?
>
> I guess I'm trying to better understand what makes a signal line
> "balanced." You've got inputs on the mixer that can be either, but
> apparently an output is only one or the other. What happens when a
> cord has a TRS on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Or just TS
> on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Is one pin a dummy then?
>
> Guess that's why they're called "sound engineers." And I'm not.
>
> -jb
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
"John Bigboote" <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:ad5586b1-58fc-449a-af6c-2309c67bc4f0@l28g2000prd.googlegroups . com ...
> On 19 Apr, 16:42, Les Cargill <lcarg...@cfl.rr . com > wrote:
>> John Bigboote wrote:
>> > Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
>> > cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
>> > the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
>> > things PA, I could use a little help.
>>
>> > Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>>
>> > (Duh.)
>>
>> > At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
>> > monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
>> > sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>>
>> TRS may buy some common mode noise rejection over very long
>> runs. I am surprised the keyboards have balanced, TRS outputs.
>> Most are just TS. If the keyboard is TS, you should use TS.
>
> I believe the keyboard jacks are *not* balanced. I'm wondering if
> there's anything wrong with using TRS. In running the keys direct to
> the powered monitors and also to the board, we haven't encountered any
> problems (IOW, it works, sound comes out, smoke doesn't), so it seems
> to be fine. I would think that as long as the jack(s) only engage the
> tip and the sleeve, no harm, no foul. But if it straddles sleeve and
> ring, or ring and tip, there might be some problem, in the form of
> noise. Or not?
>
> I guess I'm trying to better understand what makes a signal line
> "balanced." You've got inputs on the mixer that can be either, but
> apparently an output is only one or the other. What happens when a
> cord has a TRS on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Or just TS
> on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Is one pin a dummy then?
>
> Guess that's why they're called "sound engineers." And I'm not.
>
> -jb
One other comment - my older K2000VP is unbalanced. I tend to use balanced
cords on all the keyboard setup (less different things to carry and forget
one), seems to work very well. Doesn't work on my RD Artist, the ground of
the TS plug is used to turn on the battery, if I use a TRS plug, no battery,
so no bass.
Jim
"John Bigboote" <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:ad5586b1-58fc-449a-af6c-2309c67bc4f0@l28g2000prd.googlegroups . com ...
> On 19 Apr, 16:42, Les Cargill <lcarg...@cfl.rr . com > wrote:
>> John Bigboote wrote:
>> > Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
>> > cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
>> > the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
>> > things PA, I could use a little help.
>>
>> > Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>>
>> > (Duh.)
>>
>> > At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
>> > monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
>> > sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>>
>> TRS may buy some common mode noise rejection over very long
>> runs. I am surprised the keyboards have balanced, TRS outputs.
>> Most are just TS. If the keyboard is TS, you should use TS.
>
> I believe the keyboard jacks are *not* balanced. I'm wondering if
> there's anything wrong with using TRS. In running the keys direct to
> the powered monitors and also to the board, we haven't encountered any
> problems (IOW, it works, sound comes out, smoke doesn't), so it seems
> to be fine. I would think that as long as the jack(s) only engage the
> tip and the sleeve, no harm, no foul. But if it straddles sleeve and
> ring, or ring and tip, there might be some problem, in the form of
> noise. Or not?
>
> I guess I'm trying to better understand what makes a signal line
> "balanced." You've got inputs on the mixer that can be either, but
> apparently an output is only one or the other. What happens when a
> cord has a TRS on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Or just TS
> on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Is one pin a dummy then?
>
> Guess that's why they're called "sound engineers." And I'm not.
>
> -jb
One other comment - my older K2000VP is unbalanced. I tend to use balanced
cords on all the keyboard setup (less different things to carry and forget
one), seems to work very well. Doesn't work on my RD Artist, the ground of
the TS plug is used to turn on the battery, if I use a TRS plug, no battery,
so no bass.
Jim
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
On Apr 19, 8:05 pm, John Bigboote <Bigboote....@gmail . com > wrote:
> I guess I'm trying to better understand what makes a signal line
> "balanced." You've got inputs on the mixer that can be either, but
> apparently an output is only one or the other. What happens when a
> cord has a TRS on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Or just TS
> on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Is one pin a dummy then?
Here's the deal. Mono LINE cables are two wires and unbalanced. The
tip is signal the shell is ground and goes to the shield (braid) on
the wire. TRS cables are also LINE cables but usually have two signal
wires inside a single shield. They are used for stereo signals. The
fact that the two inner wires are not individually shielded means you
can get "crosstalk" between the left and right channels, but because
the signal is stereo and the same music is typically more or less on
both channels the effect isn't noticeable. Really good TRS cables are
made with two separate individually shielded wires to eliminate any
crosstalk. Best for stereo (like a keyboard) is to simply run TWO
mono cables. One for each channel. The only advantage of the two wire
TRS cable is to eliminate a bit of the wire mess.
Note I said these are LINE cables! That means they operate at about a
volt or so of signal and plug into the LINE input of a mixer/pa/etc.
XLR cables are MICROPHONE cables. They operate at a VERY low signal
level down in the millivolt or even microvolt levels. Because of the
low signal levels, they are BALANCED cables to cancel noise. In the
way that the two out of phase coils on a P bass pickup cancel out any
noise pickup, the two wires of an XLR connector are out of phase and
cancel noise. The third wire is signal ground. Also a voltage +48
etc. volts can be placed on BOTH signal wires with respect to the
ground wire to power mics. It's called "phantom power" because it uses
no extra wires. Note well that although an XLR cable has TWO signal
wires it is NOT stereo. XLR stereo requires two XLR cables! However
there is an adapter that feeds a trs cable into an XLR cable. the
result is to mix stereo down to mono. If you plug a trs into a mono
jack and then into and XLR it in fact shorts one of the wires and
gives you no advantage of the balanced input. Also the voltage level
has to be reduced to mic levels.
So. Although some mixers can take some voltage on the XLR inputs many
can't and feeding line levels into them overloads the preamps. If the
converter also reduces the levels to mic levels (as does a DI) The
thing works fine EXCEPT that by reducing your signal levels to mic
level you make the cables and system much more prone to pick up
noise! Best is two mono line cables plugged into two mono line inputs
mixed left and right to give stereo. The fact that they are
unbalanced does make them a bit more prone to noise, but the higher
signal voltage makes up for that.
So the bottom line is that most of these things sort of work. and
often what is "best" just depends upon what kind of jacks your gear
has and what is available to use. Generally speaking it is not a good
idea to feed line levels into XLR inputs. So if you use XLR inputs you
should make sure they reduce levels to match mics. (Like a GOOD DI
does). Plus the fact that phantom power can be accidentally switched
on and damage gear not designed to handle it if you convert trs to XLR
is another reason not to do that.
Um, what was the question again?
On Apr 19, 8:05 pm, John Bigboote <Bigboote....@gmail . com > wrote:
> I guess I'm trying to better understand what makes a signal line
> "balanced." You've got inputs on the mixer that can be either, but
> apparently an output is only one or the other. What happens when a
> cord has a TRS on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Or just TS
> on one end and a three-pin XLR on the other? Is one pin a dummy then?
Here's the deal. Mono LINE cables are two wires and unbalanced. The
tip is signal the shell is ground and goes to the shield (braid) on
the wire. TRS cables are also LINE cables but usually have two signal
wires inside a single shield. They are used for stereo signals. The
fact that the two inner wires are not individually shielded means you
can get "crosstalk" between the left and right channels, but because
the signal is stereo and the same music is typically more or less on
both channels the effect isn't noticeable. Really good TRS cables are
made with two separate individually shielded wires to eliminate any
crosstalk. Best for stereo (like a keyboard) is to simply run TWO
mono cables. One for each channel. The only advantage of the two wire
TRS cable is to eliminate a bit of the wire mess.
Note I said these are LINE cables! That means they operate at about a
volt or so of signal and plug into the LINE input of a mixer/pa/etc.
XLR cables are MICROPHONE cables. They operate at a VERY low signal
level down in the millivolt or even microvolt levels. Because of the
low signal levels, they are BALANCED cables to cancel noise. In the
way that the two out of phase coils on a P bass pickup cancel out any
noise pickup, the two wires of an XLR connector are out of phase and
cancel noise. The third wire is signal ground. Also a voltage +48
etc. volts can be placed on BOTH signal wires with respect to the
ground wire to power mics. It's called "phantom power" because it uses
no extra wires. Note well that although an XLR cable has TWO signal
wires it is NOT stereo. XLR stereo requires two XLR cables! However
there is an adapter that feeds a trs cable into an XLR cable. the
result is to mix stereo down to mono. If you plug a trs into a mono
jack and then into and XLR it in fact shorts one of the wires and
gives you no advantage of the balanced input. Also the voltage level
has to be reduced to mic levels.
So. Although some mixers can take some voltage on the XLR inputs many
can't and feeding line levels into them overloads the preamps. If the
converter also reduces the levels to mic levels (as does a DI) The
thing works fine EXCEPT that by reducing your signal levels to mic
level you make the cables and system much more prone to pick up
noise! Best is two mono line cables plugged into two mono line inputs
mixed left and right to give stereo. The fact that they are
unbalanced does make them a bit more prone to noise, but the higher
signal voltage makes up for that.
So the bottom line is that most of these things sort of work. and
often what is "best" just depends upon what kind of jacks your gear
has and what is available to use. Generally speaking it is not a good
idea to feed line levels into XLR inputs. So if you use XLR inputs you
should make sure they reduce levels to match mics. (Like a GOOD DI
does). Plus the fact that phantom power can be accidentally switched
on and damage gear not designed to handle it if you convert trs to XLR
is another reason not to do that.
Um, what was the question again?
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
> John Bigboote wrote:
>> Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
>> cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
>> the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
>> things PA, I could use a little help.
>> Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>> (Duh.)
>> At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
>> monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
>> sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a
>> TS-to-XLR.
John,
For short runs, there's really no practical difference at all in that
situation. As stated by another poster, the keyboard's output is
probably not TRS, but the setup works because with ring and sleeve
shorted together, The differential preamp in those powered speakers
is just seeing a single ended signal, with signal + on one side, and
ground on teh other. The single ended signal will be half the
voltage of what a full proper differential balanced signal would've
been, but over a short run, there's no difference that can't be
equalized with the gain knob.
Balanced makes its bacon in common mode rejection. i.e. 60hz hum is
dramatically reduced over long runs when a balanced signal is used
verus a single eneded connection. XLR connections have signal + ("in
phase), signal - ("reverse phase") and a signal ground. The reason
you get great noise rejection is that a balanced preamp amplifies only
the difference between the signal + and signal - leads of the
connector. Any hum induced on the cable (a 100' long snake is a great
exacmple) gets cancelled because over the 100' run down the snake, any
ambient 60hz noise would get addied to both signal + and signal -
lines, and that noise would be "common mode." A differential amp
is amplifying the _difference_ between signal + and signal - so that
common noise signal on both lines gets greatly attenuated
("cancelled" if you will) and things are noticeably quieter. How well
the preamp cancels this common mode stuff is quantified in the
specifications as "common mode rejection ratio," a figure expressed in
dB (dimensionless, a true ratio).
For short runs though, there usually isn't enough noise induced over a
short cable run to hear a difference. If you're near a noisy light or
transformer though, you will hear a difference.
Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | * w w w .toddh . net /
X Promoting good netiquette |
/ \ * w w w .toddh . net /netiquette/ | * myspace . com /bmiawmb
> John Bigboote wrote:
>> Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
>> cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
>> the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
>> things PA, I could use a little help.
>> Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>> (Duh.)
>> At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
>> monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
>> sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a
>> TS-to-XLR.
John,
For short runs, there's really no practical difference at all in that
situation. As stated by another poster, the keyboard's output is
probably not TRS, but the setup works because with ring and sleeve
shorted together, The differential preamp in those powered speakers
is just seeing a single ended signal, with signal + on one side, and
ground on teh other. The single ended signal will be half the
voltage of what a full proper differential balanced signal would've
been, but over a short run, there's no difference that can't be
equalized with the gain knob.
Balanced makes its bacon in common mode rejection. i.e. 60hz hum is
dramatically reduced over long runs when a balanced signal is used
verus a single eneded connection. XLR connections have signal + ("in
phase), signal - ("reverse phase") and a signal ground. The reason
you get great noise rejection is that a balanced preamp amplifies only
the difference between the signal + and signal - leads of the
connector. Any hum induced on the cable (a 100' long snake is a great
exacmple) gets cancelled because over the 100' run down the snake, any
ambient 60hz noise would get addied to both signal + and signal -
lines, and that noise would be "common mode." A differential amp
is amplifying the _difference_ between signal + and signal - so that
common noise signal on both lines gets greatly attenuated
("cancelled" if you will) and things are noticeably quieter. How well
the preamp cancels this common mode stuff is quantified in the
specifications as "common mode rejection ratio," a figure expressed in
dB (dimensionless, a true ratio).
For short runs though, there usually isn't enough noise induced over a
short cable run to hear a difference. If you're near a noisy light or
transformer though, you will hear a difference.
Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | * w w w .toddh . net /
X Promoting good netiquette |
/ \ * w w w .toddh . net /netiquette/ | * myspace . com /bmiawmb
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
On 19 Apr, 20:12, bmia...@toddh . net (Todd H.) wrote:
> For short runs, there's really no practical difference at all in that
> situation. As stated by another poster, the keyboard's output is
> probably not TRS, but the setup works because with ring and sleeve
> shorted together, The differential preamp in those powered speakers
> is just seeing a single ended signal, with signal + on one side, and
> ground on teh other. The single ended signal will be half the
> voltage of what a full proper differential balanced signal would've
> been, but over a short run, there's no difference that can't be
> equalized with the gain knob.
>
> Balanced makes its bacon in common mode rejection. i.e. 60hz hum is
> dramatically reduced over long runs when a balanced signal is used
> verus a single eneded connection. XLR connections have signal + ("in
> phase), signal - ("reverse phase") and a signal ground. The reason
> you get great noise rejection is that a balanced preamp amplifies only
> the difference between the signal + and signal - leads of the
> connector. Any hum induced on the cable (a 100' long snake is a great
> exacmple) gets cancelled because over the 100' run down the snake, any
> ambient 60hz noise would get addied to both signal + and signal -
> lines, and that noise would be "common mode." A differential amp
> is amplifying the difference between signal + and signal - so that
> common noise signal on both lines gets greatly attenuated
> ("cancelled" if you will) and things are noticeably quieter. How well
> the preamp cancels this common mode stuff is quantified in the
> specifications as "common mode rejection ratio," a figure expressed in
> dB (dimensionless, a true ratio).
>
> For short runs though, there usually isn't enough noise induced over a
> short cable run to hear a difference. If you're near a noisy light or
> transformer though, you will hear a difference.
Thanks, Todd. That was very helpful!
-jb
On 19 Apr, 20:12, bmia...@toddh . net (Todd H.) wrote:
> For short runs, there's really no practical difference at all in that
> situation. As stated by another poster, the keyboard's output is
> probably not TRS, but the setup works because with ring and sleeve
> shorted together, The differential preamp in those powered speakers
> is just seeing a single ended signal, with signal + on one side, and
> ground on teh other. The single ended signal will be half the
> voltage of what a full proper differential balanced signal would've
> been, but over a short run, there's no difference that can't be
> equalized with the gain knob.
>
> Balanced makes its bacon in common mode rejection. i.e. 60hz hum is
> dramatically reduced over long runs when a balanced signal is used
> verus a single eneded connection. XLR connections have signal + ("in
> phase), signal - ("reverse phase") and a signal ground. The reason
> you get great noise rejection is that a balanced preamp amplifies only
> the difference between the signal + and signal - leads of the
> connector. Any hum induced on the cable (a 100' long snake is a great
> exacmple) gets cancelled because over the 100' run down the snake, any
> ambient 60hz noise would get addied to both signal + and signal -
> lines, and that noise would be "common mode." A differential amp
> is amplifying the difference between signal + and signal - so that
> common noise signal on both lines gets greatly attenuated
> ("cancelled" if you will) and things are noticeably quieter. How well
> the preamp cancels this common mode stuff is quantified in the
> specifications as "common mode rejection ratio," a figure expressed in
> dB (dimensionless, a true ratio).
>
> For short runs though, there usually isn't enough noise induced over a
> short cable run to hear a difference. If you're near a noisy light or
> transformer though, you will hear a difference.
Thanks, Todd. That was very helpful!
-jb
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
John Bigboote <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote:
> Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
> cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
> the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
> things PA, I could use a little help.
>
> Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>
> (Duh.)
>
> At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
> monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
> sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>
> Plug into the left output only, and you get mono for both signals. We
> run a splitter off each keyboard's left (mono) output to a small
> mixer, and run one cord to each channel of her amp for monitoring. We
> run both her mics (one for vox, one for the wind instruments she
> plays) to the small mixer, too, using XLR-to-XLR.
>
> We run the combined keys from one XLR output to the main board. Ditto
> the combined mics via the other XLR output.
>
> We have the option of running the keys to the small mixer using 1/4"
> mono (TS) cords, or the 1/4" TRS-to-XLRs she uses at home.
>
> Any benefit to using the TRS-to-XLRs, in terms of reducing noise? As I
> understand it, these cords could be used for balanced signals (which a
> TS could not), but the L/Mono output from the keyboard is not
> balanced. But I figure the TRS-to-XLRs will be shielded, so why not?
> Only downside is, they're 20' long, and we only need to go about three
> feet to the mixer (in the past we've run the 20' cord to the board
> from the keyboard when not using the little mixer).
>
> In short, when is a) balanced possible, b) when is there no advantage
> to using anything but a 1/4" mono cord, and c) any harm in using a
> stereo (TRS) cord in an unbalanced situation?
>
> Man, I'm long-winded today. Sorry.
>
> -jb
Is noise an actual practical issue? (i.e., can the crowd hear it in a
gigging situation?) If not, I don't think there's a need to change
anything.
John Bigboote <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote:
> Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
> cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
> the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
> things PA, I could use a little help.
>
> Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>
> (Duh.)
>
> At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
> monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
> sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>
> Plug into the left output only, and you get mono for both signals. We
> run a splitter off each keyboard's left (mono) output to a small
> mixer, and run one cord to each channel of her amp for monitoring. We
> run both her mics (one for vox, one for the wind instruments she
> plays) to the small mixer, too, using XLR-to-XLR.
>
> We run the combined keys from one XLR output to the main board. Ditto
> the combined mics via the other XLR output.
>
> We have the option of running the keys to the small mixer using 1/4"
> mono (TS) cords, or the 1/4" TRS-to-XLRs she uses at home.
>
> Any benefit to using the TRS-to-XLRs, in terms of reducing noise? As I
> understand it, these cords could be used for balanced signals (which a
> TS could not), but the L/Mono output from the keyboard is not
> balanced. But I figure the TRS-to-XLRs will be shielded, so why not?
> Only downside is, they're 20' long, and we only need to go about three
> feet to the mixer (in the past we've run the 20' cord to the board
> from the keyboard when not using the little mixer).
>
> In short, when is a) balanced possible, b) when is there no advantage
> to using anything but a 1/4" mono cord, and c) any harm in using a
> stereo (TRS) cord in an unbalanced situation?
>
> Man, I'm long-winded today. Sorry.
>
> -jb
Is noise an actual practical issue? (i.e., can the crowd hear it in a
gigging situation?) If not, I don't think there's a need to change
anything.
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
Just curious, but tell me about this near field monitor. When I am playing
a similar setup I like to use a Roland KC100 amp running each keyboard in
mono (TS) to a separate channel and sometimes running my vocal mike to the
XLR channel. Then I bring in the monitor mix on channel four (a dedicated
monitor channel) and take the whole line out in mono to the main board.
It's simple and light and gives me control of my balance as well as vocal
level. If I have someone else running sound that I trust I run my mike to
the main directly and hear myself on my monitor return (channel 4 above).
In other setups I use a small rack unit (skb gig rig) with a Behringer 1604
on top and various effects and equipment on the front which include two
comps, a NanoVerb, Feedback destroyer, a JV1010 rack synth and a power
conditioner. The whole package is no larger or heavier than a small combo
amp. I recently purchased a Rolls PM50s that I haven't tried yet but it
might interest you. You run your vocal microphone into it xlr and also your
monitor mix and you mix them the way you want to hear your monitor mix. The
microphone basically passes through the box and goes straight to the main
board but you have full control of your own mix. I plan to run the little
boxes output to channel 4 and that would leave me a free xlr input if I
needed another microphone like for my sax.
Gerry
"John Bigboote" <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:a5a871cc-0bbd-4957-a410-b0bc7a46cf9f@w5g2000prd.googlegroups . com ...
> Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
> cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
> the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
> things PA, I could use a little help.
>
> Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>
> (Duh.)
>
> At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
> monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
> sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>
> Plug into the left output only, and you get mono for both signals. We
> run a splitter off each keyboard's left (mono) output to a small
> mixer, and run one cord to each channel of her amp for monitoring. We
> run both her mics (one for vox, one for the wind instruments she
> plays) to the small mixer, too, using XLR-to-XLR.
>
> We run the combined keys from one XLR output to the main board. Ditto
> the combined mics via the other XLR output.
>
> We have the option of running the keys to the small mixer using 1/4"
> mono (TS) cords, or the 1/4" TRS-to-XLRs she uses at home.
>
> Any benefit to using the TRS-to-XLRs, in terms of reducing noise? As I
> understand it, these cords could be used for balanced signals (which a
> TS could not), but the L/Mono output from the keyboard is not
> balanced. But I figure the TRS-to-XLRs will be shielded, so why not?
> Only downside is, they're 20' long, and we only need to go about three
> feet to the mixer (in the past we've run the 20' cord to the board
> from the keyboard when not using the little mixer).
>
> In short, when is a) balanced possible, b) when is there no advantage
> to using anything but a 1/4" mono cord, and c) any harm in using a
> stereo (TRS) cord in an unbalanced situation?
>
> Man, I'm long-winded today. Sorry.
>
> -jb
Just curious, but tell me about this near field monitor. When I am playing
a similar setup I like to use a Roland KC100 amp running each keyboard in
mono (TS) to a separate channel and sometimes running my vocal mike to the
XLR channel. Then I bring in the monitor mix on channel four (a dedicated
monitor channel) and take the whole line out in mono to the main board.
It's simple and light and gives me control of my balance as well as vocal
level. If I have someone else running sound that I trust I run my mike to
the main directly and hear myself on my monitor return (channel 4 above).
In other setups I use a small rack unit (skb gig rig) with a Behringer 1604
on top and various effects and equipment on the front which include two
comps, a NanoVerb, Feedback destroyer, a JV1010 rack synth and a power
conditioner. The whole package is no larger or heavier than a small combo
amp. I recently purchased a Rolls PM50s that I haven't tried yet but it
might interest you. You run your vocal microphone into it xlr and also your
monitor mix and you mix them the way you want to hear your monitor mix. The
microphone basically passes through the box and goes straight to the main
board but you have full control of your own mix. I plan to run the little
boxes output to channel 4 and that would leave me a free xlr input if I
needed another microphone like for my sax.
Gerry
"John Bigboote" <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:a5a871cc-0bbd-4957-a410-b0bc7a46cf9f@w5g2000prd.googlegroups . com ...
> Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
> cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
> the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
> things PA, I could use a little help.
>
> Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>
> (Duh.)
>
> At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
> monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
> sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>
> Plug into the left output only, and you get mono for both signals. We
> run a splitter off each keyboard's left (mono) output to a small
> mixer, and run one cord to each channel of her amp for monitoring. We
> run both her mics (one for vox, one for the wind instruments she
> plays) to the small mixer, too, using XLR-to-XLR.
>
> We run the combined keys from one XLR output to the main board. Ditto
> the combined mics via the other XLR output.
>
> We have the option of running the keys to the small mixer using 1/4"
> mono (TS) cords, or the 1/4" TRS-to-XLRs she uses at home.
>
> Any benefit to using the TRS-to-XLRs, in terms of reducing noise? As I
> understand it, these cords could be used for balanced signals (which a
> TS could not), but the L/Mono output from the keyboard is not
> balanced. But I figure the TRS-to-XLRs will be shielded, so why not?
> Only downside is, they're 20' long, and we only need to go about three
> feet to the mixer (in the past we've run the 20' cord to the board
> from the keyboard when not using the little mixer).
>
> In short, when is a) balanced possible, b) when is there no advantage
> to using anything but a 1/4" mono cord, and c) any harm in using a
> stereo (TRS) cord in an unbalanced situation?
>
> Man, I'm long-winded today. Sorry.
>
> -jb
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
On 20 Apr, 08:39, "pTooner" <some...@onthe . net > wrote:
> Just curious, but tell me about this near field monitor.
She's only using M-Audio near-field monitors at home when she
practices. Live, she *had* been using a 61-key Roland synth as a MIDI
controller to her S90ES, because she likes the touch better for organ
songs. Then she ran the L/Mono out from the Yamaha through a Y/
splitter, with one cord going to her Peavey keyboard amp (for on-stage
monitoring) and the other going to the main board.
But that set-up precludes her playing different parts on the different
'boards on the same song, so the set-up now is each 'board direct to
the small mixer via single 1/4" mono cords, where they're volume-
balanced when set at 5 on each 'board's respective volume. Then (IIRC)
each one of those channels goes to a separate channel on her amp
(which has three channels), and both keys together to the main board
on one XLR cord. Similar for her two mics on two balanced inputs, and
a single XLR output to the main board. That so we can get two keys and
two mics to the main board, but only use two inputs.
-jb
On 20 Apr, 08:39, "pTooner" <some...@onthe . net > wrote:
> Just curious, but tell me about this near field monitor.
She's only using M-Audio near-field monitors at home when she
practices. Live, she *had* been using a 61-key Roland synth as a MIDI
controller to her S90ES, because she likes the touch better for organ
songs. Then she ran the L/Mono out from the Yamaha through a Y/
splitter, with one cord going to her Peavey keyboard amp (for on-stage
monitoring) and the other going to the main board.
But that set-up precludes her playing different parts on the different
'boards on the same song, so the set-up now is each 'board direct to
the small mixer via single 1/4" mono cords, where they're volume-
balanced when set at 5 on each 'board's respective volume. Then (IIRC)
each one of those channels goes to a separate channel on her amp
(which has three channels), and both keys together to the main board
on one XLR cord. Similar for her two mics on two balanced inputs, and
a single XLR output to the main board. That so we can get two keys and
two mics to the main board, but only use two inputs.
-jb
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
"John Bigboote" <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:cb909273-72f1-47c7-b433-8043db62484c@a9g2000prl.googlegroups . com ...
> On 20 Apr, 08:39, "pTooner" <some...@onthe . net > wrote:
>> Just curious, but tell me about this near field monitor.
>
> She's only using M-Audio near-field monitors at home when she
> practices. Live, she *had* been using a 61-key Roland synth as a MIDI
> controller to her S90ES, because she likes the touch better for organ
> songs. Then she ran the L/Mono out from the Yamaha through a Y/
> splitter, with one cord going to her Peavey keyboard amp (for on-stage
> monitoring) and the other going to the main board.
>
> But that set-up precludes her playing different parts on the different
> 'boards on the same song, so the set-up now is each 'board direct to
> the small mixer via single 1/4" mono cords, where they're volume-
> balanced when set at 5 on each 'board's respective volume. Then (IIRC)
> each one of those channels goes to a separate channel on her amp
> (which has three channels), and both keys together to the main board
> on one XLR cord. Similar for her two mics on two balanced inputs, and
> a single XLR output to the main board. That so we can get two keys and
> two mics to the main board, but only use two inputs.
>
> -jb
>
Always educational to hear how other people approach similar problems. I
tried a similar arrangement at one point using a small Behringer 802 mixers
and found real estate problems - especially when I need my laptop as well.
Apparently your wife is using a very small mixer which would probably find
space on top of one keyboard. That seems like a really good idea. Some
years back I had an Alesis 88 key board that I tried to use as a single
board. I had a NanoVerb velcroed on top and ran my vocals through the
nanoverb with the internal mix on the nanoverb feeding my vocal channel on
the mains. It was simple and took up very little stage real estate but
eventually I got real tired of the sound. Keyboard players are never
satisfied either. ;-) BTW, I currently use a Yamaha P80 piano on the
bottom with a 76 key Roland Fantom on top. Not bad, but not perfect either.
My other occasional use boards are a Roland Juno D and an AX1 controller.
I'm playing more keyboard again so I suppose I'll be trying to find the
perfect sound again.
Gerry
"John Bigboote" <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:cb909273-72f1-47c7-b433-8043db62484c@a9g2000prl.googlegroups . com ...
> On 20 Apr, 08:39, "pTooner" <some...@onthe . net > wrote:
>> Just curious, but tell me about this near field monitor.
>
> She's only using M-Audio near-field monitors at home when she
> practices. Live, she *had* been using a 61-key Roland synth as a MIDI
> controller to her S90ES, because she likes the touch better for organ
> songs. Then she ran the L/Mono out from the Yamaha through a Y/
> splitter, with one cord going to her Peavey keyboard amp (for on-stage
> monitoring) and the other going to the main board.
>
> But that set-up precludes her playing different parts on the different
> 'boards on the same song, so the set-up now is each 'board direct to
> the small mixer via single 1/4" mono cords, where they're volume-
> balanced when set at 5 on each 'board's respective volume. Then (IIRC)
> each one of those channels goes to a separate channel on her amp
> (which has three channels), and both keys together to the main board
> on one XLR cord. Similar for her two mics on two balanced inputs, and
> a single XLR output to the main board. That so we can get two keys and
> two mics to the main board, but only use two inputs.
>
> -jb
>
Always educational to hear how other people approach similar problems. I
tried a similar arrangement at one point using a small Behringer 802 mixers
and found real estate problems - especially when I need my laptop as well.
Apparently your wife is using a very small mixer which would probably find
space on top of one keyboard. That seems like a really good idea. Some
years back I had an Alesis 88 key board that I tried to use as a single
board. I had a NanoVerb velcroed on top and ran my vocals through the
nanoverb with the internal mix on the nanoverb feeding my vocal channel on
the mains. It was simple and took up very little stage real estate but
eventually I got real tired of the sound. Keyboard players are never
satisfied either. ;-) BTW, I currently use a Yamaha P80 piano on the
bottom with a 76 key Roland Fantom on top. Not bad, but not perfect either.
My other occasional use boards are a Roland Juno D and an AX1 controller.
I'm playing more keyboard again so I suppose I'll be trying to find the
perfect sound again.
Gerry
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
"John Bigboote" <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:a5a871cc-0bbd-4957-a410-b0bc7a46cf9f@w5g2000prd.googlegroups . com ...
> Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
> cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
> the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
> things PA, I could use a little help.
>
> Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>
> (Duh.)
>
> At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
> monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
> sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>
> Plug into the left output only, and you get mono for both signals. We
> run a splitter off each keyboard's left (mono) output to a small
> mixer, and run one cord to each channel of her amp for monitoring. We
> run both her mics (one for vox, one for the wind instruments she
> plays) to the small mixer, too, using XLR-to-XLR.
>
> We run the combined keys from one XLR output to the main board. Ditto
> the combined mics via the other XLR output.
>
> We have the option of running the keys to the small mixer using 1/4"
> mono (TS) cords, or the 1/4" TRS-to-XLRs she uses at home.
>
> Any benefit to using the TRS-to-XLRs, in terms of reducing noise? As I
> understand it, these cords could be used for balanced signals (which a
> TS could not), but the L/Mono output from the keyboard is not
> balanced. But I figure the TRS-to-XLRs will be shielded, so why not?
> Only downside is, they're 20' long, and we only need to go about three
> feet to the mixer (in the past we've run the 20' cord to the board
> from the keyboard when not using the little mixer).
>
> In short, when is a) balanced possible, b) when is there no advantage
> to using anything but a 1/4" mono cord, and c) any harm in using a
> stereo (TRS) cord in an unbalanced situation?
>
> Man, I'm long-winded today. Sorry.
>
> -jb
JB - I play keys now most of the time - a lot of the recent pro keyboards
(including Kurzweil) have balanced outputs. My older stuff would work well
into an unbalanced amp, but the newer stuff does sound better - even with
short cables, if run into a balanced input (I use a small mixer and then
feed the amp with the mixer on one setup). My main setup is a pair of JBL
EON 15G2, which have balanced inputs.
As far as the stereo is concerned: there are continuing discussions on the
keyboard forums on this issue (like some of the bass related continuing
discussions). I do know that my acoustic piano patches (except the ones
marked as mono) sound better to me if I am set up with stereo, so I always
use stereo monitors, even if the main PA is mono (I know - doesn't make a
bit of difference to the audience, but I play better if I think I sound
better). This is also true on my Hammond tonewheel organ/Leslie simulation -
it sounds better in stereo also.
Jim Cason
Kurzweil K2000VP, PC2X, K2661, PC3X - into JBL EONs
Gibson RD Artist bass, Epi Les Paul 5 string bass - into Trace amp/cabs
"John Bigboote" <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:a5a871cc-0bbd-4957-a410-b0bc7a46cf9f@w5g2000prd.googlegroups . com ...
> Being fortunate enough to play an instrument that uses 1/4" mono
> cords, I usually don't have to worry about these things. But now that
> the missus is playing keys in the band, I'm delving reluctantly into
> things PA, I could use a little help.
>
> Both her keyboards have two 1/4" outputs, to provide stereo sound.
>
> (Duh.)
>
> At home, she runs 1/4" TRS-to-XLR cords to her powered nearfield
> monitors, which only have XLR inputs. So far, so good, but I have a
> sneaking suspicion that the TRS doesn't buy anything over a TS-to-XLR.
>
> Plug into the left output only, and you get mono for both signals. We
> run a splitter off each keyboard's left (mono) output to a small
> mixer, and run one cord to each channel of her amp for monitoring. We
> run both her mics (one for vox, one for the wind instruments she
> plays) to the small mixer, too, using XLR-to-XLR.
>
> We run the combined keys from one XLR output to the main board. Ditto
> the combined mics via the other XLR output.
>
> We have the option of running the keys to the small mixer using 1/4"
> mono (TS) cords, or the 1/4" TRS-to-XLRs she uses at home.
>
> Any benefit to using the TRS-to-XLRs, in terms of reducing noise? As I
> understand it, these cords could be used for balanced signals (which a
> TS could not), but the L/Mono output from the keyboard is not
> balanced. But I figure the TRS-to-XLRs will be shielded, so why not?
> Only downside is, they're 20' long, and we only need to go about three
> feet to the mixer (in the past we've run the 20' cord to the board
> from the keyboard when not using the little mixer).
>
> In short, when is a) balanced possible, b) when is there no advantage
> to using anything but a 1/4" mono cord, and c) any harm in using a
> stereo (TRS) cord in an unbalanced situation?
>
> Man, I'm long-winded today. Sorry.
>
> -jb
JB - I play keys now most of the time - a lot of the recent pro keyboards
(including Kurzweil) have balanced outputs. My older stuff would work well
into an unbalanced amp, but the newer stuff does sound better - even with
short cables, if run into a balanced input (I use a small mixer and then
feed the amp with the mixer on one setup). My main setup is a pair of JBL
EON 15G2, which have balanced inputs.
As far as the stereo is concerned: there are continuing discussions on the
keyboard forums on this issue (like some of the bass related continuing
discussions). I do know that my acoustic piano patches (except the ones
marked as mono) sound better to me if I am set up with stereo, so I always
use stereo monitors, even if the main PA is mono (I know - doesn't make a
bit of difference to the audience, but I play better if I think I sound
better). This is also true on my Hammond tonewheel organ/Leslie simulation -
it sounds better in stereo also.
Jim Cason
Kurzweil K2000VP, PC2X, K2661, PC3X - into JBL EONs
Gibson RD Artist bass, Epi Les Paul 5 string bass - into Trace amp/cabs
Re: Question(s) about cords: Balanced/stereo vs. unbalanced/mono
In message
<a5a871cc-0bbd-4957-a410-b0bc7a46cf9f@w5g2000prd.googlegroups . com >, John
Bigboote <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > writes
>Any benefit to using the TRS-to-XLRs, in terms of reducing noise? As I
>understand it, these cords could be used for balanced signals (which a
>TS could not), but the L/Mono output from the keyboard is not
>balanced. But I figure the TRS-to-XLRs will be shielded, so why not?
>Only downside is, they're 20' long, and we only need to go about three
>feet to the mixer (in the past we've run the 20' cord to the board
>from the keyboard when not using the little mixer).
I wouldn't worry either way, the keyboard output is a high level low
impedance, so is pretty good for not picking anything up anyway.
I've got a Fender keyboard combo, that has balanced inputs, but it gets
used more for a guitar combo than keyboards - usually guitar into a
Behringer dual DI, then one balanced output to combo, and the other
balanced output to the PA.
At their last gig, the PA was provided, and we just plugged guitar to
effects pedal, and pedal directly to the keyboard combo. Sounded
perfectly fine, you can mix balanced and unbalanced pretty well at will
with no ill effects.
Where balanced does become useful is studio set-ups where you have loads
of long runs, and for microphones where you have long runs and low
signal levels.
--
Nigel Goodwin
C.Farmer Ltd.
Matlock
In message
<a5a871cc-0bbd-4957-a410-b0bc7a46cf9f@w5g2000prd.googlegroups . com >, John
Bigboote <Bigboote.YPS@gmail . com > writes
>Any benefit to using the TRS-to-XLRs, in terms of reducing noise? As I
>understand it, these cords could be used for balanced signals (which a
>TS could not), but the L/Mono output from the keyboard is not
>balanced. But I figure the TRS-to-XLRs will be shielded, so why not?
>Only downside is, they're 20' long, and we only need to go about three
>feet to the mixer (in the past we've run the 20' cord to the board
>from the keyboard when not using the little mixer).
I wouldn't worry either way, the keyboard output is a high level low
impedance, so is pretty good for not picking anything up anyway.
I've got a Fender keyboard combo, that has balanced inputs, but it gets
used more for a guitar combo than keyboards - usually guitar into a
Behringer dual DI, then one balanced output to combo, and the other
balanced output to the PA.
At their last gig, the PA was provided, and we just plugged guitar to
effects pedal, and pedal directly to the keyboard combo. Sounded
perfectly fine, you can mix balanced and unbalanced pretty well at will
with no ill effects.
Where balanced does become useful is studio set-ups where you have loads
of long runs, and for microphones where you have long runs and low
signal levels.
--
Nigel Goodwin
C.Farmer Ltd.
Matlock
