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Bass Playing Skills
Re: Bass Playing Skills
> So, yeah, what Leo does is more difficult than what Vic does.
I read your entire post and saw nothing you wrote that supports this,
I was rather surprised when you pulled this conclusion seemingly out
of mid air. The only thing that comes close was your saying that
Kottke plays the bass line, the melody and the harmony, while Wooten
does not. But the instrument is designed to facilitate this, and the
guitarist has a host of tools that allow him to do it, such as chords
and fingerpicking patterns. A great deal of the time, those bass
lines, melodies, and harmonies are all found within a single chord,
with extensions.
The bass is not designed as an instrument to race around on. What
Wooten does is on the cutting edge of technique that is allowable on
the instrument. So in no way do I think what he is doing is easier
than Kottke. What Kottke is doing is more COMPLEX, yes, but I don't
think it's technically more difficult to execute, and may even be
easier.
But again, Wooten's playing doesn't have much to do with basic
everyday bass playing as far as most bands go. So I might agree with
The Bishop that it might be a little harder to play decent guitar than
decent bass.
> So, yeah, what Leo does is more difficult than what Vic does.
I read your entire post and saw nothing you wrote that supports this,
I was rather surprised when you pulled this conclusion seemingly out
of mid air. The only thing that comes close was your saying that
Kottke plays the bass line, the melody and the harmony, while Wooten
does not. But the instrument is designed to facilitate this, and the
guitarist has a host of tools that allow him to do it, such as chords
and fingerpicking patterns. A great deal of the time, those bass
lines, melodies, and harmonies are all found within a single chord,
with extensions.
The bass is not designed as an instrument to race around on. What
Wooten does is on the cutting edge of technique that is allowable on
the instrument. So in no way do I think what he is doing is easier
than Kottke. What Kottke is doing is more COMPLEX, yes, but I don't
think it's technically more difficult to execute, and may even be
easier.
But again, Wooten's playing doesn't have much to do with basic
everyday bass playing as far as most bands go. So I might agree with
The Bishop that it might be a little harder to play decent guitar than
decent bass.
Re: Bass Playing Skills
> I was rather surprised when you pulled this conclusion seemingly out
> of mid air.
It's a gift I have. Watch, now... nothin' up my sleeve...
> I was rather surprised when you pulled this conclusion seemingly out
> of mid air.
It's a gift I have. Watch, now... nothin' up my sleeve...
Re: Bass Playing Skills
Brian Running wrote:
>> I was rather surprised when you pulled this conclusion seemingly out
>> of mid air.
>
> It's a gift I have. Watch, now... nothin' up my sleeve...
Watch me pull a rabbit outta muh hat!
And now here's something you'll *really* enjoy.
(June Foray is still alive, and is 90 years old. Way to
go, June. Thanks.).
--
Les Cargill
Brian Running wrote:
>> I was rather surprised when you pulled this conclusion seemingly out
>> of mid air.
>
> It's a gift I have. Watch, now... nothin' up my sleeve...
Watch me pull a rabbit outta muh hat!
And now here's something you'll *really* enjoy.
(June Foray is still alive, and is 90 years old. Way to
go, June. Thanks.).
--
Les Cargill
Re: Bass Playing Skills
iarwain wrote:
> The bass is not designed as an instrument to race around on.
No, it's designed to play MUSIC on. The mistake you're making is judging
the instrument by the standard at which you hear the "average" bassist
playing at. That is not fair. If you compare a guitarist who practices
with focus for ten years with a bassist who practices with focus for ten
years the idea that one is "easier" than the other becomes laughable.
iarwain wrote:
> The bass is not designed as an instrument to race around on.
No, it's designed to play MUSIC on. The mistake you're making is judging
the instrument by the standard at which you hear the "average" bassist
playing at. That is not fair. If you compare a guitarist who practices
with focus for ten years with a bassist who practices with focus for ten
years the idea that one is "easier" than the other becomes laughable.
Re: Bass Playing Skills
On May 15, 11:12 am, Brian Running <brunn...@XXameritechXX,net > wrote:
> wappity-bippity
BAND NAME!
On May 15, 11:12 am, Brian Running <brunn...@XXameritechXX,net > wrote:
> wappity-bippity
BAND NAME!
Re: Bass Playing Skills
"Brian Running" <brunning@XXameritechXX,net > skrev i en meddelelse
news:qpYWj.3174$ah4.1634@flpi148.ffdc.sbc,com ...
> If you're honest with yourself, then you have to admit that the reason
> we're so fascinated with Victor Wooten is because as we listen to him
> play, we're thinking as bass players, "Holy shit, how does he do that?"
> We're not thinking as pure music lovers, "Wow, what a beautiful song." You
> can argue with that all you want, but there's an obvious reason why
> bassists like Wooten, Pastorius, Clarke, etc., etc., never get broad
> acceptance.
I think you forget Alain Caron. Playing his double thumb style in the
ridiculously flawless way he does - rich, melodic and harmonically
interesting requires a technique few guitarists posses. In a hundred years
this will probably be basic technique on the bass guitar, but due to the
instrument's immaturity it is some of the most complex stuff you can do
right now. So yes, it is fairly easy to play what most of us do on a bass
guitar - but mastering the bass guitar is at least as challenging as
mastering the guitar.
By the way, I think that Marcus Miller is starting to get some of that broad
acceptance you mention - as broad as it gets when you play fusion anyway.
/Lasse
"Brian Running" <brunning@XXameritechXX,net > skrev i en meddelelse
news:qpYWj.3174$ah4.1634@flpi148.ffdc.sbc,com ...
> If you're honest with yourself, then you have to admit that the reason
> we're so fascinated with Victor Wooten is because as we listen to him
> play, we're thinking as bass players, "Holy shit, how does he do that?"
> We're not thinking as pure music lovers, "Wow, what a beautiful song." You
> can argue with that all you want, but there's an obvious reason why
> bassists like Wooten, Pastorius, Clarke, etc., etc., never get broad
> acceptance.
I think you forget Alain Caron. Playing his double thumb style in the
ridiculously flawless way he does - rich, melodic and harmonically
interesting requires a technique few guitarists posses. In a hundred years
this will probably be basic technique on the bass guitar, but due to the
instrument's immaturity it is some of the most complex stuff you can do
right now. So yes, it is fairly easy to play what most of us do on a bass
guitar - but mastering the bass guitar is at least as challenging as
mastering the guitar.
By the way, I think that Marcus Miller is starting to get some of that broad
acceptance you mention - as broad as it gets when you play fusion anyway.
/Lasse
Re: Bass Playing Skills
> So yes, it is fairly easy to play what most of us do on a bass
> guitar - but mastering the bass guitar is at least as challenging as
> mastering the guitar.
I'm not trying to play "gotcha" here, Lasse, but I'm drawing a
distinction between mastering the instrument and difficulty in playing
the instrument. I think you could argue that mastering the cowbell is
as difficult as mastering any instrument, but no one would seriously
argue that playing a cowbell is difficult. That's what I was referring
to when I called it Zen -- the perfect bass part might be one note, and
you will find that when you master the instrument. I don't know. My
personal opinion is that wappity-bippity is not mastery. But from a
purely mechanical point of view, it's more difficult to learn to play
guitar well than to play bass well -- of course, all the qualifiers
about "you can take any instrument to any level of accomplishment,"
etc., etc., apply. I also think you're right about the progression of
technique, and sure, there are some truly phenomenal bass players out
there, Alain Caron -- and Victor Wooten -- included.
> So yes, it is fairly easy to play what most of us do on a bass
> guitar - but mastering the bass guitar is at least as challenging as
> mastering the guitar.
I'm not trying to play "gotcha" here, Lasse, but I'm drawing a
distinction between mastering the instrument and difficulty in playing
the instrument. I think you could argue that mastering the cowbell is
as difficult as mastering any instrument, but no one would seriously
argue that playing a cowbell is difficult. That's what I was referring
to when I called it Zen -- the perfect bass part might be one note, and
you will find that when you master the instrument. I don't know. My
personal opinion is that wappity-bippity is not mastery. But from a
purely mechanical point of view, it's more difficult to learn to play
guitar well than to play bass well -- of course, all the qualifiers
about "you can take any instrument to any level of accomplishment,"
etc., etc., apply. I also think you're right about the progression of
technique, and sure, there are some truly phenomenal bass players out
there, Alain Caron -- and Victor Wooten -- included.
Re: Bass Playing Skills
On May 15, 5:51 am, iarwain <iarwai...@hotmail,com > wrote:
> > There is absolutely no question that playing guitar well is harder than playing bass.
I have been playing both for over 40 years and I totally disagree.
Pt
On May 15, 5:51 am, iarwain <iarwai...@hotmail,com > wrote:
> > There is absolutely no question that playing guitar well is harder than playing bass.
I have been playing both for over 40 years and I totally disagree.
Pt
Re: Bass Playing Skills
On May 15, 11:48 am, Pt <pea...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> On May 15, 5:51 am, iarwain <iarwai...@hotmail,com > wrote:
>
> > > There is absolutely no question that playing guitar well is harder than playing bass.
>
> I have been playing both for over 40 years and I totally disagree.
>
> Pt
Like most things, I guess it depends on the specifics.
Hypothetitical situation:
Suppose some of your pals really need a bass player for their classic
rock band for a high profile gig in 4 weeks. They have 50 or so songs
that you need to learn. They want the bass parts to be as close to the
recording as possible. Suppose for the sake of argument you don't know
any of them, but they are all average difficulty on bass for that
genre (they aren't all like "The Real Me" for example).
Now imagine the same situation, but they need a guitar player instead.
For whatever reason, this isn't going to be a gig where you can just
improvise solos. 40 of the 50 songs have solos, and you're going to
have to learn them all, pretty much note for note. They aren't really
hard, but "average" difficulty solos.
Just my humble opinion, but for me the situation above would be a lot
harder on guitar than on bass. You could substitute metal or country
or blues for the classic rock genre, and I think this would still be
true as well. If it were a band where all the songs were 3-5 chord
punk rock tunes with no solos, then there is NO way it would be any
harder to do on bass than guitar. A lot of newer rock music is pretty
simple on guitar and bass, and I really think there is not a lot of
difference in difficulty either way. There are probably a lot of
genres of music where it would be much harder to do on bass than on
guitar. It all depends on what you are doing.
On May 15, 11:48 am, Pt <pea...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> On May 15, 5:51 am, iarwain <iarwai...@hotmail,com > wrote:
>
> > > There is absolutely no question that playing guitar well is harder than playing bass.
>
> I have been playing both for over 40 years and I totally disagree.
>
> Pt
Like most things, I guess it depends on the specifics.
Hypothetitical situation:
Suppose some of your pals really need a bass player for their classic
rock band for a high profile gig in 4 weeks. They have 50 or so songs
that you need to learn. They want the bass parts to be as close to the
recording as possible. Suppose for the sake of argument you don't know
any of them, but they are all average difficulty on bass for that
genre (they aren't all like "The Real Me" for example).
Now imagine the same situation, but they need a guitar player instead.
For whatever reason, this isn't going to be a gig where you can just
improvise solos. 40 of the 50 songs have solos, and you're going to
have to learn them all, pretty much note for note. They aren't really
hard, but "average" difficulty solos.
Just my humble opinion, but for me the situation above would be a lot
harder on guitar than on bass. You could substitute metal or country
or blues for the classic rock genre, and I think this would still be
true as well. If it were a band where all the songs were 3-5 chord
punk rock tunes with no solos, then there is NO way it would be any
harder to do on bass than guitar. A lot of newer rock music is pretty
simple on guitar and bass, and I really think there is not a lot of
difference in difficulty either way. There are probably a lot of
genres of music where it would be much harder to do on bass than on
guitar. It all depends on what you are doing.
Re: Bass Playing Skills
On May 15, 1:11 pm, housemouse
> Now imagine the same situation, but they need a guitar player instead.
> For whatever reason, this isn't going to be a gig where you can just
> improvise solos. 40 of the 50 songs have solos, and you're going to
> have to learn them all, pretty much note for note. They aren't really
> hard, but "average" difficulty solos.
I could do it on bass or guitar if I wanted to put the time in.
That's the magic word for me...time.
I don't have that much inititive these days to put in that much time.
One instrument would be no harder than the other.
It's all about memorizing parts and I'm slow.
Pt
On May 15, 1:11 pm, housemouse
> Now imagine the same situation, but they need a guitar player instead.
> For whatever reason, this isn't going to be a gig where you can just
> improvise solos. 40 of the 50 songs have solos, and you're going to
> have to learn them all, pretty much note for note. They aren't really
> hard, but "average" difficulty solos.
I could do it on bass or guitar if I wanted to put the time in.
That's the magic word for me...time.
I don't have that much inititive these days to put in that much time.
One instrument would be no harder than the other.
It's all about memorizing parts and I'm slow.
Pt
Re: Bass Playing Skills
On May 15, 3:59 pm, Pt <pea...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> On May 15, 1:11 pm, housemouse
>
> > Now imagine the same situation, but they need a guitar player instead.
> > For whatever reason, this isn't going to be a gig where you can just
> > improvise solos. 40 of the 50 songs have solos, and you're going to
> > have to learn them all, pretty much note for note. They aren't really
> > hard, but "average" difficulty solos.
>
> I could do it on bass or guitar if I wanted to put the time in.
> That's the magic word for me...time.
> I don't have that much inititive these days to put in that much time.
> One instrument would be no harder than the other.
> It's all about memorizing parts and I'm slow.
>
> Pt
Which do you think would take the most time to learn?
For me (and I'm guessing most people), more time to learn = harder
On May 15, 3:59 pm, Pt <pea...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> On May 15, 1:11 pm, housemouse
>
> > Now imagine the same situation, but they need a guitar player instead.
> > For whatever reason, this isn't going to be a gig where you can just
> > improvise solos. 40 of the 50 songs have solos, and you're going to
> > have to learn them all, pretty much note for note. They aren't really
> > hard, but "average" difficulty solos.
>
> I could do it on bass or guitar if I wanted to put the time in.
> That's the magic word for me...time.
> I don't have that much inititive these days to put in that much time.
> One instrument would be no harder than the other.
> It's all about memorizing parts and I'm slow.
>
> Pt
Which do you think would take the most time to learn?
For me (and I'm guessing most people), more time to learn = harder
Re: Bass Playing Skills
housemouse <housemouse@klassmaster,com > wrote:
> On May 15, 3:59 pm, Pt <pea...@yahoo,com > wrote:
>> On May 15, 1:11 pm, housemouse
>>
>>> Now imagine the same situation, but they need a guitar player
>>> instead. For whatever reason, this isn't going to be a gig where
>>> you can just improvise solos. 40 of the 50 songs have solos, and
>>> you're going to have to learn them all, pretty much note for note.
>>> They aren't really hard, but "average" difficulty solos.
>>
>> I could do it on bass or guitar if I wanted to put the time in.
>> That's the magic word for me...time.
>> I don't have that much inititive these days to put in that much time.
>> One instrument would be no harder than the other.
>> It's all about memorizing parts and I'm slow.
>>
>> Pt
>
> Which do you think would take the most time to learn?
>
> For me (and I'm guessing most people), more time to learn = harder
To get to the point where you can barely get by in front of other
people, guitar would be harder. But to play proficiently and know and
understand all the ins and outs of your instrument, I think it's a wash.
housemouse <housemouse@klassmaster,com > wrote:
> On May 15, 3:59 pm, Pt <pea...@yahoo,com > wrote:
>> On May 15, 1:11 pm, housemouse
>>
>>> Now imagine the same situation, but they need a guitar player
>>> instead. For whatever reason, this isn't going to be a gig where
>>> you can just improvise solos. 40 of the 50 songs have solos, and
>>> you're going to have to learn them all, pretty much note for note.
>>> They aren't really hard, but "average" difficulty solos.
>>
>> I could do it on bass or guitar if I wanted to put the time in.
>> That's the magic word for me...time.
>> I don't have that much inititive these days to put in that much time.
>> One instrument would be no harder than the other.
>> It's all about memorizing parts and I'm slow.
>>
>> Pt
>
> Which do you think would take the most time to learn?
>
> For me (and I'm guessing most people), more time to learn = harder
To get to the point where you can barely get by in front of other
people, guitar would be harder. But to play proficiently and know and
understand all the ins and outs of your instrument, I think it's a wash.
Re: Bass Playing Skills
On May 15, 5:58 pm, "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> housemouse <housemo...@klassmaster,com > wrote:
> > On May 15, 3:59 pm, Pt <pea...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> >> On May 15, 1:11 pm, housemouse
>
> >>> Now imagine the same situation, but they need a guitar player
> >>> instead. For whatever reason, this isn't going to be a gig where
> >>> you can just improvise solos. 40 of the 50 songs have solos, and
> >>> you're going to have to learn them all, pretty much note for note.
> >>> They aren't really hard, but "average" difficulty solos.
>
> >> I could do it on bass or guitar if I wanted to put the time in.
> >> That's the magic word for me...time.
> >> I don't have that much inititive these days to put in that much time.
> >> One instrument would be no harder than the other.
> >> It's all about memorizing parts and I'm slow.
>
> >> Pt
>
> > Which do you think would take the most time to learn?
>
> > For me (and I'm guessing most people), more time to learn = harder
>
> To get to the point where you can barely get by in front of other
> people, guitar would be harder. But to play proficiently and know and
> understand all the ins and outs of your instrument, I think it's a wash.
Could be. I guess it's how you define "barely getting by". To me,
that is being in a band, and playing well enough that people will say
"Hey! that sounds pretty good!"
Or "your band is really good", etc....
Is it harder to get to the level of Victor Wooten, or Yngwie
Malmsteen?
Harder to be like Jaco or like Joe Pass?
etc, etc....
I think it's really hard to get to that high level on either
instrument. And at that point, you are so good that comparisons don't
really make sense.
On May 15, 5:58 pm, "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> housemouse <housemo...@klassmaster,com > wrote:
> > On May 15, 3:59 pm, Pt <pea...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> >> On May 15, 1:11 pm, housemouse
>
> >>> Now imagine the same situation, but they need a guitar player
> >>> instead. For whatever reason, this isn't going to be a gig where
> >>> you can just improvise solos. 40 of the 50 songs have solos, and
> >>> you're going to have to learn them all, pretty much note for note.
> >>> They aren't really hard, but "average" difficulty solos.
>
> >> I could do it on bass or guitar if I wanted to put the time in.
> >> That's the magic word for me...time.
> >> I don't have that much inititive these days to put in that much time.
> >> One instrument would be no harder than the other.
> >> It's all about memorizing parts and I'm slow.
>
> >> Pt
>
> > Which do you think would take the most time to learn?
>
> > For me (and I'm guessing most people), more time to learn = harder
>
> To get to the point where you can barely get by in front of other
> people, guitar would be harder. But to play proficiently and know and
> understand all the ins and outs of your instrument, I think it's a wash.
Could be. I guess it's how you define "barely getting by". To me,
that is being in a band, and playing well enough that people will say
"Hey! that sounds pretty good!"
Or "your band is really good", etc....
Is it harder to get to the level of Victor Wooten, or Yngwie
Malmsteen?
Harder to be like Jaco or like Joe Pass?
etc, etc....
I think it's really hard to get to that high level on either
instrument. And at that point, you are so good that comparisons don't
really make sense.
Re: Bass Playing Skills
On May 15, 3:51 pm, housemouse
> Which do you think would take the most time to learn?
>
> For me (and I'm guessing most people), more time to learn = harder
There are too many factors to answer that.
Right now I am playing guitar in a band and I'm rusty on bass.
Playing guitar and playing bass are two totally different ways of
thinking.
It takes me time to change my way of thinking.
So right now the guitar is easiest.
Pt
On May 15, 3:51 pm, housemouse
> Which do you think would take the most time to learn?
>
> For me (and I'm guessing most people), more time to learn = harder
There are too many factors to answer that.
Right now I am playing guitar in a band and I'm rusty on bass.
Playing guitar and playing bass are two totally different ways of
thinking.
It takes me time to change my way of thinking.
So right now the guitar is easiest.
Pt
Re: Bass Playing Skills
On May 15, 9:44 pm, Pt <pea...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> On May 15, 3:51 pm, housemouse
>
> > Which do you think would take the most time to learn?
>
> > For me (and I'm guessing most people), more time to learn = harder
>
> There are too many factors to answer that.
> Right now I am playing guitar in a band and I'm rusty on bass.
> Playing guitar and playing bass are two totally different ways of
> thinking.
> It takes me time to change my way of thinking.
> So right now the guitar is easiest.
>
> Pt
Fair enough. It's different for everybody, and like you said - you
have played guitar and bass for 40 years, so I'm sure you are really
good on both.
For me, it's hard to learn guitar solos note for note. Not that the
average solo is technically hard, but because it can take a few hours
to get all the licks down, and to learn how to play it smoothly.
Pretty much it's not worth it to me to learn most guitar solos note
for note. I love to improvise stuff, and that way I don't have to
spend all that time memorizing the solos. Some guitarists I know are
all into learning the solos note for note, and they can spend weeks
learning one solo. If you are going to be a guitarist in a band that
demands that note for note stuff, it can be a pretty big time
commitment. I've played in bands where the other guitarist and I did
some harmony solo stuff, and for me, it takes a lot of time to get
that stuff to a respectable level. It's not just solos, some songs are
just difficult. It's one thing to pick up a 3 chord tune that just
uses power chords, it's another to pick up one that has about 20
different chords with all sorts of difficult fingerings, and quick
changes between them.
For a lot of rock stuff, I can pick up the bass part pretty quickly.
Much quicker than learning guitar solos. If the songs are really
simple on guitar, though - it's no harder than learning the bass line,
and sometimes easier.
So to me - from the viewpoint of casual band hack, playing rock music
- it's a lot easier to learn stuff on bass. I think to someone
starting out, who just wanted to be in a bar band, playing rock stuff
- it would be a lot easier to play bass. I'm sure there are other
styles of music where it is different.
On May 15, 9:44 pm, Pt <pea...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> On May 15, 3:51 pm, housemouse
>
> > Which do you think would take the most time to learn?
>
> > For me (and I'm guessing most people), more time to learn = harder
>
> There are too many factors to answer that.
> Right now I am playing guitar in a band and I'm rusty on bass.
> Playing guitar and playing bass are two totally different ways of
> thinking.
> It takes me time to change my way of thinking.
> So right now the guitar is easiest.
>
> Pt
Fair enough. It's different for everybody, and like you said - you
have played guitar and bass for 40 years, so I'm sure you are really
good on both.
For me, it's hard to learn guitar solos note for note. Not that the
average solo is technically hard, but because it can take a few hours
to get all the licks down, and to learn how to play it smoothly.
Pretty much it's not worth it to me to learn most guitar solos note
for note. I love to improvise stuff, and that way I don't have to
spend all that time memorizing the solos. Some guitarists I know are
all into learning the solos note for note, and they can spend weeks
learning one solo. If you are going to be a guitarist in a band that
demands that note for note stuff, it can be a pretty big time
commitment. I've played in bands where the other guitarist and I did
some harmony solo stuff, and for me, it takes a lot of time to get
that stuff to a respectable level. It's not just solos, some songs are
just difficult. It's one thing to pick up a 3 chord tune that just
uses power chords, it's another to pick up one that has about 20
different chords with all sorts of difficult fingerings, and quick
changes between them.
For a lot of rock stuff, I can pick up the bass part pretty quickly.
Much quicker than learning guitar solos. If the songs are really
simple on guitar, though - it's no harder than learning the bass line,
and sometimes easier.
So to me - from the viewpoint of casual band hack, playing rock music
- it's a lot easier to learn stuff on bass. I think to someone
starting out, who just wanted to be in a bar band, playing rock stuff
- it would be a lot easier to play bass. I'm sure there are other
styles of music where it is different.
