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Post Subject:
Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
Brian Running wrote:
>> I don't think you could get "state of the art" for under $500,
>> wouldn't the CPU alone would cost more than that?
>
> With advance apologies to Glenn Dowdy, I just recently spec'ed a Dell
> Vostro: Core 2 Duo at 2.2 GHz and 2MB L2 cache, 2 GB RAM, DVD burner,
> 320 GB HD, and all the usual doo-dads, for $394.
>
>> I assume the reason you can't get a digital onstage setup such as you
>> describe for that kind of money is due to the economy of scale. The
>> computer industry sells millions of desktops and laptops every year,
>> the more they make the lower the cost per unit becomes especially
>> since so many of the components are interchangeable.
>
> That's the point. The vast market for personal computers has driven the
> prices of the components down to the point of absurdity. They're the
> same components that you'd use in the sound system, by and large.
No.
> Every
> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the economy of
> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer industry.
>
No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You cannot
find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to order A Whole
Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a bloody NDA to get
a *meeting* anymore.
> As for the size of the market, look at the competition out there. How
> many companies right now are producing and marketing mixing consoles,
> snakes, digital audio interfaces, etc. -- one hell of a lot!
Three or four, excluding lifestyle businesses. The FMR/RNC is an example
of a lifestyle product.
> Ever been
> to the NAMM show? It's a very large market,
It's not.
> but it's going through some
> readjustments right now. At the consumer end of the scale, margins are
> getting squeezed until they're razor-thin. That adjustment will
> eventually shake down through the entire market, to musicians and sound
> professionals, I'm just saying, let's get to it sooner than later.
>
> It's going to happen, why not now? What I'm describing is essentially
> to do what Behringer has done in other areas of that very same market.
What's Behringer's ROI? Go check out who is the CEO of the Behringer
Group.
--
Les Cargill
Brian Running wrote:
>> I don't think you could get "state of the art" for under $500,
>> wouldn't the CPU alone would cost more than that?
>
> With advance apologies to Glenn Dowdy, I just recently spec'ed a Dell
> Vostro: Core 2 Duo at 2.2 GHz and 2MB L2 cache, 2 GB RAM, DVD burner,
> 320 GB HD, and all the usual doo-dads, for $394.
>
>> I assume the reason you can't get a digital onstage setup such as you
>> describe for that kind of money is due to the economy of scale. The
>> computer industry sells millions of desktops and laptops every year,
>> the more they make the lower the cost per unit becomes especially
>> since so many of the components are interchangeable.
>
> That's the point. The vast market for personal computers has driven the
> prices of the components down to the point of absurdity. They're the
> same components that you'd use in the sound system, by and large.
No.
> Every
> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the economy of
> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer industry.
>
No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You cannot
find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to order A Whole
Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a bloody NDA to get
a *meeting* anymore.
> As for the size of the market, look at the competition out there. How
> many companies right now are producing and marketing mixing consoles,
> snakes, digital audio interfaces, etc. -- one hell of a lot!
Three or four, excluding lifestyle businesses. The FMR/RNC is an example
of a lifestyle product.
> Ever been
> to the NAMM show? It's a very large market,
It's not.
> but it's going through some
> readjustments right now. At the consumer end of the scale, margins are
> getting squeezed until they're razor-thin. That adjustment will
> eventually shake down through the entire market, to musicians and sound
> professionals, I'm just saying, let's get to it sooner than later.
>
> It's going to happen, why not now? What I'm describing is essentially
> to do what Behringer has done in other areas of that very same market.
What's Behringer's ROI? Go check out who is the CEO of the Behringer
Group.
--
Les Cargill
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>> Every
>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the economy of
>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>> industry.
>>
>
> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to order A
> Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a bloody NDA to
> get a *meeting* anymore.
Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data sheets.
Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me data
sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had to sign an
NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free samples
of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free web
accunt.
>> Ever been
>> to the NAMM show? It's a very large market,
>
> It's not.
...and that is where the problem is.
--
Aaron
Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>> Every
>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the economy of
>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>> industry.
>>
>
> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to order A
> Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a bloody NDA to
> get a *meeting* anymore.
Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data sheets.
Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me data
sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had to sign an
NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free samples
of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free web
accunt.
>> Ever been
>> to the NAMM show? It's a very large market,
>
> It's not.
...and that is where the problem is.
--
Aaron
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
The BorgMan wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
> news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>
>
>>> Every
>>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the economy of
>>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>>> industry.
>>>
>> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
>> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to order A
>> Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a bloody NDA to
>> get a *meeting* anymore.
>
> Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data sheets.
> Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me data
> sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had to sign an
> NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free samples
> of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free web
> accunt.
>
I'm not looking at analog parts - digital, comms related
ones. The great smoking crater left by the dotcom bust has
made that much more interesting.
If you can get it on Digikey, yer golden. If not....
>
>
>>> Ever been
>>> to the NAMM show? It's a very large market,
>> It's not.
>
> ...and that is where the problem is.
>
Aye.
--
Les Cargill
The BorgMan wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
> news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>
>
>>> Every
>>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the economy of
>>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>>> industry.
>>>
>> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
>> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to order A
>> Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a bloody NDA to
>> get a *meeting* anymore.
>
> Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data sheets.
> Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me data
> sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had to sign an
> NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free samples
> of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free web
> accunt.
>
I'm not looking at analog parts - digital, comms related
ones. The great smoking crater left by the dotcom bust has
made that much more interesting.
If you can get it on Digikey, yer golden. If not....
>
>
>>> Ever been
>>> to the NAMM show? It's a very large market,
>> It's not.
>
> ...and that is where the problem is.
>
Aye.
--
Les Cargill
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in news:4807cdef$0$12942
$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
> The BorgMan wrote:
>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
>> news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>
>>
>>>> Every
>>>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the economy
of
>>>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>>>> industry.
>>>>
>>> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
>>> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to order A
>>> Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a bloody NDA
to
>>> get a *meeting* anymore.
>>
>> Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data
sheets.
>> Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me data
>> sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had to sign
an
>> NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free
samples
>> of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free web
>> accunt.
>>
>
> I'm not looking at analog parts - digital, comms related
> ones.
Don't use single use/single manufacture parts - it's always a bad idea.
All that stuff can easily be implemented in most cases in industry
standard PALs. We're not talking super high speed or bandwidth here.
> If you can get it on Digikey, yer golden. If not....
If you can't get it on Digikey, or from at least 2-3 vendors, you
shouldn't be using it.
--
Aaron
Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in news:4807cdef$0$12942
$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
> The BorgMan wrote:
>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
>> news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>
>>
>>>> Every
>>>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the economy
of
>>>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>>>> industry.
>>>>
>>> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
>>> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to order A
>>> Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a bloody NDA
to
>>> get a *meeting* anymore.
>>
>> Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data
sheets.
>> Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me data
>> sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had to sign
an
>> NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free
samples
>> of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free web
>> accunt.
>>
>
> I'm not looking at analog parts - digital, comms related
> ones.
Don't use single use/single manufacture parts - it's always a bad idea.
All that stuff can easily be implemented in most cases in industry
standard PALs. We're not talking super high speed or bandwidth here.
> If you can get it on Digikey, yer golden. If not....
If you can't get it on Digikey, or from at least 2-3 vendors, you
shouldn't be using it.
--
Aaron
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
The BorgMan wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in news:4807cdef$0$12942
> $4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>
>> The BorgMan wrote:
>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
>>> news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Every
>>>>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the economy
> of
>>>>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>>>>> industry.
>>>>>
>>>> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
>>>> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to order A
>>>> Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a bloody NDA
> to
>>>> get a *meeting* anymore.
>>> Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data
> sheets.
>>> Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me data
>>> sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had to sign
> an
>>> NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free
> samples
>>> of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free web
>>> accunt.
>>>
>> I'm not looking at analog parts - digital, comms related
>> ones.
>
> Don't use single use/single manufacture parts - it's always a bad idea.
> All that stuff can easily be implemented in most cases in industry
> standard PALs. We're not talking super high speed or bandwidth here.
>
Oh really? Are you sure? I can do a detailed analysis of what would be
required, but it would cost you well over $10,000 just for that.
Well over.
>> If you can get it on Digikey, yer golden. If not....
>
> If you can't get it on Digikey, or from at least 2-3 vendors, you
> shouldn't be using it.
>
*sigh*
--
Les Cargill
The BorgMan wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in news:4807cdef$0$12942
> $4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>
>> The BorgMan wrote:
>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
>>> news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Every
>>>>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the economy
> of
>>>>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>>>>> industry.
>>>>>
>>>> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
>>>> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to order A
>>>> Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a bloody NDA
> to
>>>> get a *meeting* anymore.
>>> Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data
> sheets.
>>> Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me data
>>> sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had to sign
> an
>>> NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free
> samples
>>> of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free web
>>> accunt.
>>>
>> I'm not looking at analog parts - digital, comms related
>> ones.
>
> Don't use single use/single manufacture parts - it's always a bad idea.
> All that stuff can easily be implemented in most cases in industry
> standard PALs. We're not talking super high speed or bandwidth here.
>
Oh really? Are you sure? I can do a detailed analysis of what would be
required, but it would cost you well over $10,000 just for that.
Well over.
>> If you can get it on Digikey, yer golden. If not....
>
> If you can't get it on Digikey, or from at least 2-3 vendors, you
> shouldn't be using it.
>
*sigh*
--
Les Cargill
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
news:48091528$0$12973$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
> The BorgMan wrote:
>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in news:4807cdef$0$12942
>> $4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>
>>> The BorgMan wrote:
>>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
>>>> news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Every
>>>>>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the
>>>>>> economy
>> of
>>>>>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>>>>>> industry.
>>>>>>
>>>>> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
>>>>> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to
>>>>> order A Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a
>>>>> bloody NDA
>> to
>>>>> get a *meeting* anymore.
>>>> Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data
>> sheets.
>>>> Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me
>>>> data sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had
>>>> to sign
>> an
>>>> NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free
>> samples
>>>> of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free
>>>> web accunt.
>>>>
>>> I'm not looking at analog parts - digital, comms related
>>> ones.
>>
>> Don't use single use/single manufacture parts - it's always a bad
>> idea. All that stuff can easily be implemented in most cases in
>> industry standard PALs. We're not talking super high speed or
>> bandwidth here.
>>
>
> Oh really? Are you sure? I can do a detailed analysis of what would be
> required, but it would cost you well over $10,000 just for that.
>
> Well over.
That's what outsourcing is for.
>>> If you can get it on Digikey, yer golden. If not....
>>
>> If you can't get it on Digikey, or from at least 2-3 vendors, you
>> shouldn't be using it.
>>
>
> *sigh*
Hey, single sourcing is moronic.
--
Aaron
Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
news:48091528$0$12973$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
> The BorgMan wrote:
>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in news:4807cdef$0$12942
>> $4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>
>>> The BorgMan wrote:
>>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
>>>> news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Every
>>>>>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the
>>>>>> economy
>> of
>>>>>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>>>>>> industry.
>>>>>>
>>>>> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
>>>>> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to
>>>>> order A Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a
>>>>> bloody NDA
>> to
>>>>> get a *meeting* anymore.
>>>> Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data
>> sheets.
>>>> Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me
>>>> data sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had
>>>> to sign
>> an
>>>> NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free
>> samples
>>>> of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free
>>>> web accunt.
>>>>
>>> I'm not looking at analog parts - digital, comms related
>>> ones.
>>
>> Don't use single use/single manufacture parts - it's always a bad
>> idea. All that stuff can easily be implemented in most cases in
>> industry standard PALs. We're not talking super high speed or
>> bandwidth here.
>>
>
> Oh really? Are you sure? I can do a detailed analysis of what would be
> required, but it would cost you well over $10,000 just for that.
>
> Well over.
That's what outsourcing is for.
>>> If you can get it on Digikey, yer golden. If not....
>>
>> If you can't get it on Digikey, or from at least 2-3 vendors, you
>> shouldn't be using it.
>>
>
> *sigh*
Hey, single sourcing is moronic.
--
Aaron
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
The BorgMan wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
> news:48091528$0$12973$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>
>> The BorgMan wrote:
>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in news:4807cdef$0$12942
>>> $4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>>
>>>> The BorgMan wrote:
>>>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
>>>>> news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Every
>>>>>>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the
>>>>>>> economy
>>> of
>>>>>>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>>>>>>> industry.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
>>>>>> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to
>>>>>> order A Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a
>>>>>> bloody NDA
>>> to
>>>>>> get a *meeting* anymore.
>>>>> Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data
>>> sheets.
>>>>> Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me
>>>>> data sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had
>>>>> to sign
>>> an
>>>>> NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free
>>> samples
>>>>> of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free
>>>>> web accunt.
>>>>>
>>>> I'm not looking at analog parts - digital, comms related
>>>> ones.
>>> Don't use single use/single manufacture parts - it's always a bad
>>> idea. All that stuff can easily be implemented in most cases in
>>> industry standard PALs. We're not talking super high speed or
>>> bandwidth here.
>>>
>> Oh really? Are you sure? I can do a detailed analysis of what would be
>> required, but it would cost you well over $10,000 just for that.
>>
>> Well over.
>
> That's what outsourcing is for.
>
>
Uh huh. I add a zero after that fails.
>
>>>> If you can get it on Digikey, yer golden. If not....
>>> If you can't get it on Digikey, or from at least 2-3 vendors, you
>>> shouldn't be using it.
>>>
>> *sigh*
>
> Hey, single sourcing is moronic.
>
Like duh :) You have to manage things carefully, for proprietary or
highly integrated parts.
--
Les Cargill
The BorgMan wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
> news:48091528$0$12973$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>
>> The BorgMan wrote:
>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in news:4807cdef$0$12942
>>> $4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>>
>>>> The BorgMan wrote:
>>>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
>>>>> news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Every
>>>>>>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the
>>>>>>> economy
>>> of
>>>>>>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>>>>>>> industry.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
>>>>>> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to
>>>>>> order A Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a
>>>>>> bloody NDA
>>> to
>>>>>> get a *meeting* anymore.
>>>>> Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data
>>> sheets.
>>>>> Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me
>>>>> data sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had
>>>>> to sign
>>> an
>>>>> NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free
>>> samples
>>>>> of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free
>>>>> web accunt.
>>>>>
>>>> I'm not looking at analog parts - digital, comms related
>>>> ones.
>>> Don't use single use/single manufacture parts - it's always a bad
>>> idea. All that stuff can easily be implemented in most cases in
>>> industry standard PALs. We're not talking super high speed or
>>> bandwidth here.
>>>
>> Oh really? Are you sure? I can do a detailed analysis of what would be
>> required, but it would cost you well over $10,000 just for that.
>>
>> Well over.
>
> That's what outsourcing is for.
>
>
Uh huh. I add a zero after that fails.
>
>>>> If you can get it on Digikey, yer golden. If not....
>>> If you can't get it on Digikey, or from at least 2-3 vendors, you
>>> shouldn't be using it.
>>>
>> *sigh*
>
> Hey, single sourcing is moronic.
>
Like duh :) You have to manage things carefully, for proprietary or
highly integrated parts.
--
Les Cargill
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in news:480d1e3d$0$4082
$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
> The BorgMan wrote:
>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
>> news:48091528$0$12973$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>
>>> The BorgMan wrote:
>>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in news:4807cdef$0$12942
>>>> $4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>>>
>>>>> The BorgMan wrote:
>>>>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
>>>>>> news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Every
>>>>>>>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the
>>>>>>>> economy
>>>> of
>>>>>>>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>>>>>>>> industry.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
>>>>>>> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to
>>>>>>> order A Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a
>>>>>>> bloody NDA
>>>> to
>>>>>>> get a *meeting* anymore.
>>>>>> Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data
>>>> sheets.
>>>>>> Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me
>>>>>> data sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had
>>>>>> to sign
>>>> an
>>>>>> NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free
>>>> samples
>>>>>> of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free
>>>>>> web accunt.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not looking at analog parts - digital, comms related
>>>>> ones.
>>>> Don't use single use/single manufacture parts - it's always a bad
>>>> idea. All that stuff can easily be implemented in most cases in
>>>> industry standard PALs. We're not talking super high speed or
>>>> bandwidth here.
>>>>
>>> Oh really? Are you sure? I can do a detailed analysis of what would
be
>>> required, but it would cost you well over $10,000 just for that.
>>>
>>> Well over.
>>
>> That's what outsourcing is for.
>>
>>
>
> Uh huh. I add a zero after that fails.
I guess I've just had better luck at it than you.
>>>>> If you can get it on Digikey, yer golden. If not....
>>>> If you can't get it on Digikey, or from at least 2-3 vendors, you
>>>> shouldn't be using it.
>>>>
>>> *sigh*
>>
>> Hey, single sourcing is moronic.
>>
>
> Like duh :) You have to manage things carefully, for proprietary or
> highly integrated parts.
Nah, you just avoid those parts altogether. There are very few
applications that require single sourced parts.
--
Aaron
Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in news:480d1e3d$0$4082
$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
> The BorgMan wrote:
>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
>> news:48091528$0$12973$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>
>>> The BorgMan wrote:
>>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in news:4807cdef$0$12942
>>>> $4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>>>
>>>>> The BorgMan wrote:
>>>>>> Les Cargill <lcargill@cfl.rr,com > wrote in
>>>>>> news:4806849d$0$9553$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Every
>>>>>>>> industry that uses electronic components benefits from the
>>>>>>>> economy
>>>> of
>>>>>>>> scale created by the computer industry, not just the computer
>>>>>>>> industry.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No. This was true up until about 2000. It is no longer true. You
>>>>>>> cannot find sh*t anymore, and if you can find it, you have to
>>>>>>> order A Whole Bunche to even get data sheets. You have to sign a
>>>>>>> bloody NDA
>>>> to
>>>>>>> get a *meeting* anymore.
>>>>>> Hmm... I still seem to have no problems getting samples or data
>>>> sheets.
>>>>>> Hell, even the Burr-Brown idiots at TI have no prpblem getting me
>>>>>> data sheets - just parts due to production idiocy. I've never had
>>>>>> to sign
>>>> an
>>>>>> NDA to get parts or data sheets. Hell Analog will send you free
>>>> samples
>>>>>> of anything you want, and all you have to do is sign up for a free
>>>>>> web accunt.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not looking at analog parts - digital, comms related
>>>>> ones.
>>>> Don't use single use/single manufacture parts - it's always a bad
>>>> idea. All that stuff can easily be implemented in most cases in
>>>> industry standard PALs. We're not talking super high speed or
>>>> bandwidth here.
>>>>
>>> Oh really? Are you sure? I can do a detailed analysis of what would
be
>>> required, but it would cost you well over $10,000 just for that.
>>>
>>> Well over.
>>
>> That's what outsourcing is for.
>>
>>
>
> Uh huh. I add a zero after that fails.
I guess I've just had better luck at it than you.
>>>>> If you can get it on Digikey, yer golden. If not....
>>>> If you can't get it on Digikey, or from at least 2-3 vendors, you
>>>> shouldn't be using it.
>>>>
>>> *sigh*
>>
>> Hey, single sourcing is moronic.
>>
>
> Like duh :) You have to manage things carefully, for proprietary or
> highly integrated parts.
Nah, you just avoid those parts altogether. There are very few
applications that require single sourced parts.
--
Aaron
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
"Brian Running" <brunning@XXameritechXX,net > wrote in message
news:NIrNj.1907$I55.43@newssvr22.news.prodigy,net ...
>> I don't think you could get "state of the art" for under $500, wouldn't
>> the CPU alone would cost more than that?
>
> With advance apologies to Glenn Dowdy, I just recently spec'ed a Dell
> Vostro: Core 2 Duo at 2.2 GHz and 2MB L2 cache, 2 GB RAM, DVD burner, 320
> GB HD, and all the usual doo-dads, for $394.
>
Grrrrr.
Glenn D.
"Brian Running" <brunning@XXameritechXX,net > wrote in message
news:NIrNj.1907$I55.43@newssvr22.news.prodigy,net ...
>> I don't think you could get "state of the art" for under $500, wouldn't
>> the CPU alone would cost more than that?
>
> With advance apologies to Glenn Dowdy, I just recently spec'ed a Dell
> Vostro: Core 2 Duo at 2.2 GHz and 2MB L2 cache, 2 GB RAM, DVD burner, 320
> GB HD, and all the usual doo-dads, for $394.
>
Grrrrr.
Glenn D.
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
To really understand the term "economy of scale" you should just go to a
local airport and take a look at a Cessna or Piper. They cost several
hundred thousand dollars and are obviously much cheaper to build than a 10K
car. The demand is so small that they are essentially hand built.
Gerry
To really understand the term "economy of scale" you should just go to a
local airport and take a look at a Cessna or Piper. They cost several
hundred thousand dollars and are obviously much cheaper to build than a 10K
car. The demand is so small that they are essentially hand built.
Gerry
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
pTooner wrote:
> To really understand the term "economy of scale" you should just go
> to a local airport and take a look at a Cessna or Piper. They cost
> several hundred thousand dollars and are obviously much cheaper to
> build than a 10K car. The demand is so small that they are
> essentially hand built.
> Gerry
Apparently a hundred grand of that is due to the fact that nine times out of
ten when such an aircraft crashes it is ruled pilot error, but eight and a
half times out of ten the family sues the mfg. anyway. Or so I've read.
pTooner wrote:
> To really understand the term "economy of scale" you should just go
> to a local airport and take a look at a Cessna or Piper. They cost
> several hundred thousand dollars and are obviously much cheaper to
> build than a 10K car. The demand is so small that they are
> essentially hand built.
> Gerry
Apparently a hundred grand of that is due to the fact that nine times out of
ten when such an aircraft crashes it is ruled pilot error, but eight and a
half times out of ten the family sues the mfg. anyway. Or so I've read.
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
"DGDevin" <dgdevin@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:4JmdnSWVirWHSJvVnZ2dnUVZ_uuonZ2d@earthlink,com ...
> pTooner wrote:
>
>> To really understand the term "economy of scale" you should just go
>> to a local airport and take a look at a Cessna or Piper. They cost
>> several hundred thousand dollars and are obviously much cheaper to
>> build than a 10K car. The demand is so small that they are
>> essentially hand built.
>> Gerry
>
> Apparently a hundred grand of that is due to the fact that nine times out
> of ten when such an aircraft crashes it is ruled pilot error, but eight
> and a half times out of ten the family sues the mfg. anyway. Or so I've
> read.
>
Actually, that was true but is no longer the case. The law was changed some
years ago. At the time that Beechcraft ceased production of it's piston
driven fleet it said that it paid more for product liability insurance per
unit than the construction cost per unit. Anyway, that was changed some
years back and Piper and Cessna among others went back into production but
it was too late for the industry as a whole. Because production numbers
never went to high levels costs remained astronomical.
Gerry
"DGDevin" <dgdevin@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:4JmdnSWVirWHSJvVnZ2dnUVZ_uuonZ2d@earthlink,com ...
> pTooner wrote:
>
>> To really understand the term "economy of scale" you should just go
>> to a local airport and take a look at a Cessna or Piper. They cost
>> several hundred thousand dollars and are obviously much cheaper to
>> build than a 10K car. The demand is so small that they are
>> essentially hand built.
>> Gerry
>
> Apparently a hundred grand of that is due to the fact that nine times out
> of ten when such an aircraft crashes it is ruled pilot error, but eight
> and a half times out of ten the family sues the mfg. anyway. Or so I've
> read.
>
Actually, that was true but is no longer the case. The law was changed some
years ago. At the time that Beechcraft ceased production of it's piston
driven fleet it said that it paid more for product liability insurance per
unit than the construction cost per unit. Anyway, that was changed some
years back and Piper and Cessna among others went back into production but
it was too late for the industry as a whole. Because production numbers
never went to high levels costs remained astronomical.
Gerry
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
"pTooner" <someguy@onthe,net > wrote in message
news:KBBNj.24978$%15.3737@bignews7.bellsouth,net ...
>
> "DGDevin" <dgdevin@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:4JmdnSWVirWHSJvVnZ2dnUVZ_uuonZ2d@earthlink,com ...
>> pTooner wrote:
>>
>>> To really understand the term "economy of scale" you should just go
>>> to a local airport and take a look at a Cessna or Piper. They cost
>>> several hundred thousand dollars and are obviously much cheaper to
>>> build than a 10K car. The demand is so small that they are
>>> essentially hand built.
>>> Gerry
>>
>> Apparently a hundred grand of that is due to the fact that nine times out
>> of ten when such an aircraft crashes it is ruled pilot error, but eight
>> and a half times out of ten the family sues the mfg. anyway. Or so I've
>> read.
>>
> Actually, that was true but is no longer the case. The law was changed
> some years ago. At the time that Beechcraft ceased production of it's
> piston driven fleet it said that it paid more for product liability
> insurance per unit than the construction cost per unit.
Do a search on General Aviation Revitalization Act of 1994. Basically it
reduced product liability of small aircraft manufacturers from unlimited to
18 years, with mixed results.
Glenn D.
"pTooner" <someguy@onthe,net > wrote in message
news:KBBNj.24978$%15.3737@bignews7.bellsouth,net ...
>
> "DGDevin" <dgdevin@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:4JmdnSWVirWHSJvVnZ2dnUVZ_uuonZ2d@earthlink,com ...
>> pTooner wrote:
>>
>>> To really understand the term "economy of scale" you should just go
>>> to a local airport and take a look at a Cessna or Piper. They cost
>>> several hundred thousand dollars and are obviously much cheaper to
>>> build than a 10K car. The demand is so small that they are
>>> essentially hand built.
>>> Gerry
>>
>> Apparently a hundred grand of that is due to the fact that nine times out
>> of ten when such an aircraft crashes it is ruled pilot error, but eight
>> and a half times out of ten the family sues the mfg. anyway. Or so I've
>> read.
>>
> Actually, that was true but is no longer the case. The law was changed
> some years ago. At the time that Beechcraft ceased production of it's
> piston driven fleet it said that it paid more for product liability
> insurance per unit than the construction cost per unit.
Do a search on General Aviation Revitalization Act of 1994. Basically it
reduced product liability of small aircraft manufacturers from unlimited to
18 years, with mixed results.
Glenn D.
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
pTooner wrote:
> To really understand the term "economy of scale" you should just go to a
> local airport and take a look at a Cessna or Piper. They cost several
> hundred thousand dollars and are obviously much cheaper to build than a 10K
> car. The demand is so small that they are essentially hand built.
>
> Gerry
>
>
It's 10-20k for the plane. The rest is for liability insurance.
--
Les Cargill
pTooner wrote:
> To really understand the term "economy of scale" you should just go to a
> local airport and take a look at a Cessna or Piper. They cost several
> hundred thousand dollars and are obviously much cheaper to build than a 10K
> car. The demand is so small that they are essentially hand built.
>
> Gerry
>
>
It's 10-20k for the plane. The rest is for liability insurance.
--
Les Cargill
Re: Gripe, Gripe, Gripe
I used to think that until I moved down South. Churches dropping 50-200k in
tax free dollars on Enormo Dome quality PA and multi media without blinking
an eye - not just once, but as an ongoing investment. "Church
sales/installation" is probably the most profitable area for an MI salesguy
to be in down here. This is pretty much the norm rather than the exception,
and I know it's a similar situation in the Midwest, CO and CA.
Actually, one of the hottest tickets on that scene is digital boards. Not so
much digital inputs, but boards with the ability to program mixer scenes and
levels. All the tech has to do is set it once for the most common live
situations the use, then the "volunteer" soundguys can pull up the right mix
without touching anything (thank God).
"DGDevin" <dgdevin@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:j6adnVPwHNnrppvVnZ2dnUVZ_qygnZ2d@earthlink,com ...
> Brian Running wrote:
>
> > I can buy a full-blown, state of the art computer system with enough
> > digital horsepower to put mainframe supercomputers of twenty years ago
> > to shame, for under $500. The actual physical components of the
> > system I'm describing would cost maybe $150.
> >
> > And, there's no reason why, for about $50 apiece more, each player
> > couldn't have his own personal, 24-channel monitor mixer on stage
> > with him.
>
> I don't think you could get "state of the art" for under $500, wouldn't
the
> CPU alone would cost more than that?
>
> I assume the reason you can't get a digital onstage setup such as you
> describe for that kind of money is due to the economy of scale. The
> computer industry sells millions of desktops and laptops every year, the
> more they make the lower the cost per unit becomes especially since so
many
> of the components are interchangeable. But how many bands and clubs are
> there to buy a system such as you describe? It can't be millions, it
> probably isn't even in the hundreds of thousands. So somebody will have
to
> design and build these things with a potential market perhaps only in the
> tens of thousands (given competition), that's got to push up costs and
> require a higher price to make it profitable enough to be worth doing.
>
> That doesn't mean that some of the current stuff isn't overpriced in part
> because of a reliance on outmoded technology, but I have to think that if
> the potential profits were really significant we'd have seen more movement
> here already. It's one thing for cheeseball companies like L6 or Crate or
> whoever to market cheap digital guitar amps, there are millions of
potential
> customers for cheap amps and guitars, but for a full-on band PA/recording
> setup, especially one robust enough to do a year on the road without
> cratering? I have to wonder if the potential market is big enough to do
it
> at that sort of price.
>
>
I used to think that until I moved down South. Churches dropping 50-200k in
tax free dollars on Enormo Dome quality PA and multi media without blinking
an eye - not just once, but as an ongoing investment. "Church
sales/installation" is probably the most profitable area for an MI salesguy
to be in down here. This is pretty much the norm rather than the exception,
and I know it's a similar situation in the Midwest, CO and CA.
Actually, one of the hottest tickets on that scene is digital boards. Not so
much digital inputs, but boards with the ability to program mixer scenes and
levels. All the tech has to do is set it once for the most common live
situations the use, then the "volunteer" soundguys can pull up the right mix
without touching anything (thank God).
"DGDevin" <dgdevin@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:j6adnVPwHNnrppvVnZ2dnUVZ_qygnZ2d@earthlink,com ...
> Brian Running wrote:
>
> > I can buy a full-blown, state of the art computer system with enough
> > digital horsepower to put mainframe supercomputers of twenty years ago
> > to shame, for under $500. The actual physical components of the
> > system I'm describing would cost maybe $150.
> >
> > And, there's no reason why, for about $50 apiece more, each player
> > couldn't have his own personal, 24-channel monitor mixer on stage
> > with him.
>
> I don't think you could get "state of the art" for under $500, wouldn't
the
> CPU alone would cost more than that?
>
> I assume the reason you can't get a digital onstage setup such as you
> describe for that kind of money is due to the economy of scale. The
> computer industry sells millions of desktops and laptops every year, the
> more they make the lower the cost per unit becomes especially since so
many
> of the components are interchangeable. But how many bands and clubs are
> there to buy a system such as you describe? It can't be millions, it
> probably isn't even in the hundreds of thousands. So somebody will have
to
> design and build these things with a potential market perhaps only in the
> tens of thousands (given competition), that's got to push up costs and
> require a higher price to make it profitable enough to be worth doing.
>
> That doesn't mean that some of the current stuff isn't overpriced in part
> because of a reliance on outmoded technology, but I have to think that if
> the potential profits were really significant we'd have seen more movement
> here already. It's one thing for cheeseball companies like L6 or Crate or
> whoever to market cheap digital guitar amps, there are millions of
potential
> customers for cheap amps and guitars, but for a full-on band PA/recording
> setup, especially one robust enough to do a year on the road without
> cratering? I have to wonder if the potential market is big enough to do
it
> at that sort of price.
>
>
