On what beat do you hear the beginning?

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

"js" <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote in message
news:480851e0$0$31728$4c368faf@roadrunner,com ...
>I respectfully disagree with that. It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start on
> the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time. That
> first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the downbeat
> though.
>
> As an aside to no one in particular - that anyone would TRY to imitate
> that
> into exactly strikes me as very amusing. It reminds me of the people who
> try
> to notate the "Black Dog" breaks in all sorts of bizarre time
> signatures...


As an aside, the drummer who made the fuss has been replaced. :-)

Last night, I ran into the drummer from a previous band in which we had no
issues starting that song. We agreed that we counted to 3 and then hit it,
never discussed it, didn't care whether that count flowed correctly into the
rest of the song or any known formal structure. It always worked. It just
seemed intuitive.


....which is why the drummer who made the fuss has been replaced.

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

On Apr 18, 9:53 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborea...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> "js" <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote in messagenews:480851e0$0$31728$4c368faf@roadrunner,com ...
>
> >I respectfully disagree with that. It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start on
> > the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time. That
> > first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the downbeat
> > though.
>
> > As an aside to no one in particular - that anyone would TRY to imitate
> > that
> > into exactly strikes me as very amusing. It reminds me of the people who
> > try
> > to notate the "Black Dog" breaks in all sorts of bizarre time
> > signatures...
>
> As an aside, the drummer who made the fuss has been replaced. :-)
>
> Last night, I ran into the drummer from a previous band in which we had no
> issues starting that song. We agreed that we counted to 3 and then hit it,
> never discussed it, didn't care whether that count flowed correctly into the
> rest of the song or any known formal structure. It always worked. It just
> seemed intuitive.
>
> ....which is why the drummer who made the fuss has been replaced.

I surmise that he violated Rule 2 of sidemen .

Rule 1 : Band leader is always right.
Rule 2: If he's wrong, refer to Rule #1

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

"Neil N" <daltonmusic@rogers,com > wrote in message
news:8cdb3bf7-69f1-479a-b3ea-606ba4208c1f@l64g2000hse.googlegroups,com ...
On Apr 18, 9:53 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishborea...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> "js" <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote in
> messagenews:480851e0$0$31728$4c368faf@roadrunner,com ...
>
> >I respectfully disagree with that. It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start
> >on
> > the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time. That
> > first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the downbeat
> > though.
>
> > As an aside to no one in particular - that anyone would TRY to imitate
> > that
> > into exactly strikes me as very amusing. It reminds me of the people who
> > try
> > to notate the "Black Dog" breaks in all sorts of bizarre time
> > signatures...
>
> As an aside, the drummer who made the fuss has been replaced. :-)
>
> Last night, I ran into the drummer from a previous band in which we had no
> issues starting that song. We agreed that we counted to 3 and then hit it,
> never discussed it, didn't care whether that count flowed correctly into
> the
> rest of the song or any known formal structure. It always worked. It just
> seemed intuitive.
>
> ....which is why the drummer who made the fuss has been replaced.

I surmise that he violated Rule 2 of sidemen .

Rule 1 : Band leader is always right.
Rule 2: If he's wrong, refer to Rule #1

========================

For the rest of the band, it was a good-natured debate. For the drummer, it
was something else. So far, the people I have get along really well and I
want to keep it that way as much as possible with any bunch of smart people
who have to work together a lot.

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
> "js" <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote in message
> news:480851e0$0$31728$4c368faf@roadrunner,com ...
>> I respectfully disagree with that. It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start on
>> the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time. That
>> first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the downbeat
>> though.
>>
>> As an aside to no one in particular - that anyone would TRY to imitate
>> that
>> into exactly strikes me as very amusing. It reminds me of the people who
>> try
>> to notate the "Black Dog" breaks in all sorts of bizarre time
>> signatures...
>
>
> As an aside, the drummer who made the fuss has been replaced. :-)
>
> Last night, I ran into the drummer from a previous band in which we had no
> issues starting that song. We agreed that we counted to 3 and then hit it,
> never discussed it, didn't care whether that count flowed correctly into the
> rest of the song or any known formal structure. It always worked. It just
> seemed intuitive.
>
>
> ....which is why the drummer who made the fuss has been replaced.
>
>

He prolly wouldn't wear a flag pin, either.

--
Les Cargill

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

On Apr 18, 3:45 am, "js" <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote:
> I respectfully disagree with that. It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start on
> the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time. That
> first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the downbeat
> though.
>
> As an aside to no one in particular - that anyone would TRY to imitate that
> into exactly strikes me as very amusing. It reminds me of the people who try
> to notate the "Black Dog" breaks in all sorts of bizarre time signatures...
>
> "Gary Rosen" <garymro...@comcast,net > wrote in message
>
> news:y7CdnfZ0YsLus5XVnZ2dnUVZ gudnZ2d@comcast,com ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo,com > wrote in message
> >news:pyyNj.9306$XF3.2429@trnddc04...
> > > The song
> > > starts on a 4 1/2, as this one does,
>
> > No, as a few others have said here it starts on "e" of 4 e and uh
> (sixteenth
> > notes).
>
> > - Gary Rosen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


I see, John, once again, your mind is made up, and any attempt to
present you with the facts is pointless.

It's interesting that your assumption is that the band played it
wrong.

Seredipitously, last week I just did a proper lift of "I want you
back" Jackson 5, ( Love that bass part) and in the bridge the bass
comes in with largely the same figure. Actually e and a of 4, but
close enough.

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

Oh, Lord, here we go...

Just for you Neil, I went back and listened to the intro at least a dozen
times, and counted it out in 16ths.

Actually, I WILL correct myself: It's not a pushed "e", but rather a
slightly dragged "an". They come in right between "an" and "a". I think what
threw me (and several others) the first time was that little hi hat hit he
does before the actual 4 count.

Every single time, I count "1eana, 2eana, 3eana 4e - and half of "an" before
they kick in. Don't know what more I can tell you there.

If it were an "e" you'd need some sort of 8th note syncopation to make 2
16ths fir into the space of 3, or a rest. Speaking of which, I also took
into account the "pause" between the first two notes and the downbeat. I
would say that it's part of the rather deep pocket they are playing, rather
than a countable rest.

Either way, if I were going to write this out, I'd start it on the "an".
(And why do I have a feeling that I WILL be writing it out by the end of
this thread?...).

In any case, no, the band did not start "correctly", not that it really
matters - Live is Live. And as I said before, anyone who obsesses about
"mistakes" like this, "Black Dog" the sax solo from "Respect" etc., Needs to
gig more.

I'm sorry that you feel I'm being whatever it is you think I'm being. But I
can't tell you that 2+2 = 5 if it doesn't. I can't tell you that "we're all
beautiful, special people and everyone's opinion is right" if it's not.
Perhaps it's not me who has the problem.

I'm not really planning on starting an entire subthread on this, so tell you
what - YOU write it out BOTH ways, sit down with a metronome, count and play
both, and tell us what you think. Or let Finale do it if you want. If you
TRUTHFULLY think you're right, well then, gosh darn it, you're right.
Everybody wins!


PS: just checked it again before posting. Same count as before. Ignore the
HH and it will make sense.

"Neil N" <daltonmusic@rogers,com > wrote in message
news:6460fa2c-bbb9-4837-adfc-86d04e91dc12@59g2000hsb.googlegroups,com ...
On Apr 18, 3:45 am, "js" <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote:
> I respectfully disagree with that. It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start
on
> the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time. That
> first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the downbeat
> though.
>
> As an aside to no one in particular - that anyone would TRY to imitate
that
> into exactly strikes me as very amusing. It reminds me of the people who
try
> to notate the "Black Dog" breaks in all sorts of bizarre time
signatures...
>
> "Gary Rosen" <garymro...@comcast,net > wrote in message
>
> news:y7CdnfZ0YsLus5XVnZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@comcast,com ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo,com > wrote in message
> >news:pyyNj.9306$XF3.2429@trnddc04...
> > > The song
> > > starts on a 4 1/2, as this one does,
>
> > No, as a few others have said here it starts on "e" of 4 e and uh
> (sixteenth
> > notes).
>
> > - Gary Rosen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


I see, John, once again, your mind is made up, and any attempt to
present you with the facts is pointless.

It's interesting that your assumption is that the band played it
wrong.

Seredipitously, last week I just did a proper lift of "I want you
back" Jackson 5, ( Love that bass part) and in the bridge the bass
comes in with largely the same figure. Actually e and a of 4, but
close enough.

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

On Apr 19, 1:15 am, "js" <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote:
> Oh, Lord, here we go...
>
> Just for you Neil, I went back and listened to the intro at least a dozen
> times, and counted it out in 16ths.
>
> Actually, I WILL correct myself: It's not a pushed "e", but rather a
> slightly dragged "an". They come in right between "an" and "a". I think what
> threw me (and several others) the first time was that little hi hat hit he
> does before the actual 4 count.
>
> Every single time, I count "1eana, 2eana, 3eana 4e - and half of "an" before
> they kick in. Don't know what more I can tell you there.
>
> If it were an "e" you'd need some sort of 8th note syncopation to make 2
> 16ths fir into the space of 3, or a rest. Speaking of which, I also took
> into account the "pause" between the first two notes and the downbeat. I
> would say that it's part of the rather deep pocket they are playing,  rather
> than a countable rest.
>
> Either way, if I were going to write this out, I'd start it on the "an".
> (And why do I have a feeling that I WILL be writing it out by the end of
> this thread?...).
>
> In any case, no, the band did not start "correctly", not that it really
> matters - Live is Live. And as I said before, anyone who obsesses about
> "mistakes" like this, "Black Dog" the sax solo from "Respect" etc., Needs to
> gig more.
>
> I'm sorry that you feel I'm being whatever it is you think I'm being. But I
> can't tell you that 2+2 = 5 if it doesn't. I can't tell you that "we're all
> beautiful, special people and everyone's opinion is right" if it's not.
> Perhaps it's not me who has the problem.
>
> I'm not really planning on starting an entire subthread on this, so tell you
> what - YOU write it out BOTH ways, sit down with a metronome, count and play
> both, and tell us what you think. Or let Finale do it if you want. If you
> TRUTHFULLY think you're right, well then, gosh darn it, you're right.
> Everybody wins!
>
> PS: just checked it again before posting. Same count as before. Ignore the
> HH and it will make sense.
>
> "Neil N" <daltonmu...@rogers,com > wrote in message
>
> news:6460fa2c-bbb9-4837-adfc-86d04e91dc12@59g2000hsb.googlegroups,com ...
> On Apr 18, 3:45 am, "js" <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I respectfully disagree with that. It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start
> on
> > the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time. That
> > first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the downbeat
> > though.
>
> > As an aside to no one in particular - that anyone would TRY to imitate
> that
> > into exactly strikes me as very amusing. It reminds me of the people who
> try
> > to notate the "Black Dog" breaks in all sorts of bizarre time
> signatures...
>
> > "Gary Rosen" <garymro...@comcast,net > wrote in message
>
> >news:y7CdnfZ0YsLus5XVnZ2dnUVZ gudnZ2d@comcast,com ...
>
> > > "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo,com > wrote in message
> > >news:pyyNj.9306$XF3.2429@trnddc04...
> > > > The song
> > > > starts on a 4 1/2, as this one does,
>
> > > No, as a few others have said here it starts on "e" of 4 e and uh
> > (sixteenth
> > > notes).
>
> > > - Gary Rosen- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I see, John, once again, your mind is made up, and any attempt to
> present you with the facts is pointless.
>
> It's interesting that your assumption is that the band played it
> wrong.
>
> Seredipitously, last week I just did a proper lift of "I want you
> back" Jackson 5, ( Love that bass part) and in the bridge the bass
> comes in with largely the same figure. Actually e and a of 4, but
> close enough.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ok , I'm a little bored on a Monday morning , waiting for the Ontario
Hydro One ( electrical, for those out of Ontario) inspector to show
up.

I wrote a quick midi file.

http :// neilnumminen,com /where.htm

Now of course, this is dead nuts quantized, so at this point the
discussion can go two ways.

Did we want to determine how that figure should be written in a
readable manner with the intent of having other players reproduce it,
or how it was actually played with the nuance ( and slop) of live
performance?

That file works fine in Windows Media Player for me, but when I click
it on my site Quicktime takes over, and refuses to play it... I'm
clueless about that at the moment.

It's only 734 bytes.

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?


"Neil N" <daltonmusic@rogers,com > wrote in message
news:6460fa2c-bbb9-4837-adfc-86d04e91dc12@59g2000hsb.googlegroups,com ...
On Apr 18, 3:45 am, "js" <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote:
> I respectfully disagree with that. It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start
> on
> the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time. That
> first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the downbeat
> though.
>
> As an aside to no one in particular - that anyone would TRY to imitate
> that
> into exactly strikes me as very amusing. It reminds me of the people who
> try
> to notate the "Black Dog" breaks in all sorts of bizarre time
> signatures...
>
> "Gary Rosen" <garymro...@comcast,net > wrote in message
>
> news:y7CdnfZ0YsLus5XVnZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@comcast,com ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "RichL" <rpleav...@yahoo,com > wrote in message
> >news:pyyNj.9306$XF3.2429@trnddc04...
> > > The song
> > > starts on a 4 1/2, as this one does,
>
> > No, as a few others have said here it starts on "e" of 4 e and uh
> (sixteenth
> > notes).
>
> > - Gary Rosen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


I see, John, once again, your mind is made up, and any attempt to
present you with the facts is pointless.

It's interesting that your assumption is that the band played it
wrong.

Seredipitously, last week I just did a proper lift of "I want you
back" Jackson 5, ( Love that bass part) and in the bridge the bass
comes in with largely the same figure. Actually e and a of 4, but
close enough.

-------------------------

Neil, I think John is right here, read my post about how
the drummer counted it off wrong. As a bassist, I'm
very comfortable with blaming it on the drummer.

- Gary Rosen

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

js wrote:
> It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start on
> the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time. That
> first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the downbeat
> though.

I agree. Counting strictly it does start on the "ee" but if I were
notating what I heard here on a chart I'd write it as a pushed "an".

> As an aside to no one in particular - that anyone would TRY to imitate that
> into exactly strikes me as very amusing. It reminds me of the people who try
> to notate the "Black Dog" breaks in all sorts of bizarre time signatures...

Yes.

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

On Apr 18, 1:34 pm, jeffb <rig...@shaw.c> wrote:
> js wrote:
> > It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start on
> > the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time. That
> > first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the downbeat
> > though.
>
> I agree. Counting strictly it does start on the "ee" but if I were
> notating what I heard here on a chart I'd write it as a pushed "an".

"Pushed" by what ? A sixteenth note perhaps?

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

Neil N wrote:
> On Apr 18, 1:34 pm, jeffb <rig...@shaw.c> wrote:
>> js wrote:
>>> It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start on
>>> the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time. That
>>> first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the downbeat
>>> though.
>> I agree. Counting strictly it does start on the "ee" but if I were
>> notating what I heard here on a chart I'd write it as a pushed "an".
>
> "Pushed" by what ? A sixteenth note perhaps?

Yes but you can write the same figure different ways that will denote
subtle differences in intent. I wouldn't go as far as John and say
"supposed to" but I very much heard it as a pushed 8th rather than right
down the middle of the 16th. It's a matter of where the weight of the
phrase lies.

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

On Apr 18, 2:57 pm, jeffb <rig...@shaw.c> wrote:
> Neil N wrote:
> > On Apr 18, 1:34 pm, jeffb <rig...@shaw.c> wrote:
> >> js wrote:
> >>> It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start on
> >>> the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time. That
> >>> first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the downbeat
> >>> though.
> >> I agree. Counting strictly it does start on the "ee" but if I were
> >> notating what I heard here on a chart I'd write it as a pushed "an".
>
> > "Pushed" by what ? A sixteenth note perhaps?
>
> Yes but you can write the same figure different ways that will denote
> subtle differences in intent. I wouldn't go as far as John and say
> "supposed to" but I very much heard it as a pushed 8th rather than right
> down the middle of the 16th. It's a matter of where the weight of the
> phrase lies.

Well now, at this point, this much I'll say .. If we were in the OP's
band, one or both of us would be fired... ;^)

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

Oh, I'd definitely say "supposed to" That drummer's not clicking those
sticks together for his health....

However the question a hand is not what the count is SUPPOSED to be, but
what it IS. And I believe we've all weighed in on that.

As to the former, it sounds like you could make a case either for a heavily
shuffled "an", or a "strict written time" "e" with a 16th rest on the "a" -
although this still doesn't seem quite right. You'd still have to push the
"e" IRL to get the feel to work.


In any event, the truth is they didn't play what they were "supposed" to be
playing.


On a side note, on of my eternal fascinations with this business is how a
"famous" persons "mistakes" become Gospel. Just because you have a record
deal, you don't suddenly become anointed with Papal Infallibility. You fuck
up and have bad nights just like the rest of us.

But then you get guys like the OP's drummer, insisting that "wrong" is
"right". Hilarious.



"jeffb" <rigger@shaw.c> wrote in message
news:5a6Oj.72578$Cj7.69170@pd7urf2no...
> Neil N wrote:
> > On Apr 18, 1:34 pm, jeffb <rig...@shaw.c> wrote:
> >> js wrote:
> >>> It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start on
> >>> the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time.
That
> >>> first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the
downbeat
> >>> though.
> >> I agree. Counting strictly it does start on the "ee" but if I were
> >> notating what I heard here on a chart I'd write it as a pushed "an".
> >
> > "Pushed" by what ? A sixteenth note perhaps?
>
> Yes but you can write the same figure different ways that will denote
> subtle differences in intent. I wouldn't go as far as John and say
> "supposed to" but I very much heard it as a pushed 8th rather than right
> down the middle of the 16th. It's a matter of where the weight of the
> phrase lies.

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

"js" <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote in message
news:480c4640$0$31722$4c368faf@roadrunner,com ...

> On a side note, on of my eternal fascinations with this business is how a
> "famous" persons "mistakes" become Gospel. Just because you have a record
> deal, you don't suddenly become anointed with Papal Infallibility. You
> fuck
> up and have bad nights just like the rest of us.


Years ago, I heard an interview with Butch Trucks, who said that
occasionally, a fan will ask how to better understand the odd timing in the
middle of the liver version of "One Way Out". He felt bad because some had
been wasting time trying to duplicate what was, in fact, a mistake.

Re: On what beat do you hear the beginning?

jeffb wrote:
> js wrote:
>> It sounds like it's SUPPOSED to start on
>> the "an", but the guitars jump in slightly early and push the time. That
>> first "tutti" note sounds like total chaos to me. They nail the downbeat
>> though.
>
> I agree. Counting strictly it does start on the "ee" but if I were
> notating what I heard here on a chart I'd write it as a pushed "an".
>

There are triplets in there, sooo... that may account for the "half
between-ness" of it.

I would reinvent the intro myself. I don't particularly like that intro.
Starting on a weird place with triplets is...just odd. It
doesn't do anything for the song.

>> As an aside to no one in particular - that anyone would TRY to imitate
>> that
>> into exactly strikes me as very amusing. It reminds me of the people
>> who try
>> to notate the "Black Dog" breaks in all sorts of bizarre time
>> signatures...
>
> Yes.

We used to try drummers out on "Go Your Own Way" by Fleetwood
Mac. We didn't play the song, we just wanted to know if they could
count. If they were not familiar with the song, we'd break it
down for them.

--
Les Cargill