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Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
>I pretty much agree. The major players have turned out some pretty
>good stuff over the years, despite all the flack.
>In fact, I think they still do for the most part, except that now
>they seem grossly overpriced vs what you can often get for
>your money these days.
snip
I agree. I have had some recent Fenders and Gibsons, and I find the
guitars thmselves to be very good BUT also very overpriced....more so
for Gibson...their prices are just getting crazy IMHO. I recently
bought an 02 non reverse Firebird Custom shop guitar...I had wanted
one for a long time..,it was a great guitar....BUT I ended up selling
it for a $200 profit when the opportunity came knocking....and bought
a 96 Hamer Studio, and a computer for my daughter, a Michael Kelly
Valor, and an Epiphone S400...and a few other things too. I just could
not justify the price. Hamer quality is just fantastic. Fender bought
Kaman which owns Hamer recenlty....I hope they don't change anything
because they make some really great stuff.....also great buys as used
guitars.
Please check out my music....
http :// www .soundclick,com /bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610
>I pretty much agree. The major players have turned out some pretty
>good stuff over the years, despite all the flack.
>In fact, I think they still do for the most part, except that now
>they seem grossly overpriced vs what you can often get for
>your money these days.
snip
I agree. I have had some recent Fenders and Gibsons, and I find the
guitars thmselves to be very good BUT also very overpriced....more so
for Gibson...their prices are just getting crazy IMHO. I recently
bought an 02 non reverse Firebird Custom shop guitar...I had wanted
one for a long time..,it was a great guitar....BUT I ended up selling
it for a $200 profit when the opportunity came knocking....and bought
a 96 Hamer Studio, and a computer for my daughter, a Michael Kelly
Valor, and an Epiphone S400...and a few other things too. I just could
not justify the price. Hamer quality is just fantastic. Fender bought
Kaman which owns Hamer recenlty....I hope they don't change anything
because they make some really great stuff.....also great buys as used
guitars.
Please check out my music....
http :// www .soundclick,com /bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
I thought this was a troll, until I saw that it came from he alt.guitar
braintrust...
I apprentice at just such a luthier. I'm not anywhere close to a "master"
level, but I know enough to know why his products are superior to a lot of
what is out there and why.
I could go through a whole dissertation, but here it is briefly.
1) quality vs. quantity. That's it in a nutshell. The major manufacturers
ALWAYS have an eye towards quantity and production costs, even on the
"Custom Shop" models. Everything is designed to flow through the assembly
line, cut on the CNC machine, paint and dry with the existing equipment and
little or no retooling. Every screw is life or death to the bean counters.
Understand, this is not NECESSARILY a bad thing; but it's the PRIMARY way
these guys think.
A true Luthier is not going to care about such things. They are going to
build your axe the right way, with the right tools and materials, for as
long as it takes to get it right. They could care less about Gantt Charts or
"productivity". If it's got their name on it, it's done when it's done -
even if that means taking a beating on the profit margin.
Also, I've seen the effects of substandard production work, and they ain't
pretty: cracked braces, bridges that pull up, poorly wired/poor quality
electronics, warped necks that can't be fixed. A few weeks ago, I watched my
buddy extract a trussrod from a Gibson Ripper that literally had the
dimensions of a COAT HANGER, and bent in my hand just as easily. The off the
shelf two way rod he replaced it with was easily THREE times the size.
When your business is TOTALLY based on numbers, you're going to cut corners
eventually.
2) What if you want, say, a 42 string multi-necked guitar, or a 6 string fan
fret bass with a custom wound pickup and MIDI electronics built in? You
can't call up Fender and ask for something like that.
Or rather, you CAN, but the price they will quote you is gonna be WAAAY
higher than your local luthier will charge.
And when you get into the "boutique bass" range - $1500 and up - you are
almost better off spending a couple hundred more to get an custom
made-from-scratch-measure-your-hand-for-the-radius bass, rather than an off
the shelf model.
3) I'd bet money that ALL the "pros" you mentioned have a few custom jobs
among their collections, and record with them. Not only are they
knowledgeable about guitars, but there are Luthiers who basically stake out
rock concerts, finagle their way backstage, and try to get a famous
guitarist to by their stuff.
Also, endorsements are BUSINESS relationships, not qualitative judgments. A
lot of guys will RECORD with the expensive stuff, and tour with whatever
they endorse. That way, the expensive shit doesn't get stolen, and they make
$$$ from endorsements.
And remember, Jerry played custom axes for most of his career.
Last, I'll leave you with this:
One night, I was watching the counter while my luthier buddy was checking
"tap tones" on a guitar top be was carving. He'd tap, then carve a little
bit, then tap some more, and so on for at least a few hours.
This redneck walks in, looking for some strings. As with about 90% of the
people who come in the store, he was seriously shocked that there were no
Fenders or Gibsons on the wall; just the store's guitars.
He says to me, kind of mocking, "what's the difference 'tween these here
"GUHtars" (that's how they say it in NC) an' a Les Paul?
I point to my buddy, with his ear to the guitar top, tapping every inch of
it and listening intently. "THAT'S the difference" I said.
"RMZ" <Jeremy.Deats@gmail,com > wrote in message
news:918a7cc3-8bd9-42e7-a507-9a378e0bf8df@u36g2000prf.googlegroups,com ...
> First of all, this post isn't for those who are just love to build
> guitars for your personal enjoyment or those who build guitars for the
> artistic aspect (art guitars). Guitar making techniques passed down
> from generation to generation is a beautiful thing and if people
> stopped then we wouldn't have a lot of the companies we do today. An
> example in point, In the early 1970's if Bob Taylor had decided C.F.
> Martin and Gibson had already done everything we would not have Taylor
> guitars today and it's reasonable to think that right now somewhere in
> the world a great lutheir has an innovative design that takes the
> instrument forward and someday their company will be known with the
> best of them.
>
> So this is where my topic begins, my problem isn't with the 1-5% of
> lutheir's that truely make a difference in the craft and take the
> instrument further in terms of a design, it's with the other 95% who
> may build an exceptional quality product, but never really innovate
> over what's been done before and seldom can match the design of
> Fender, Gibson, Martin etc... Now that I've touched on a never, let's
> explore the value of the private lutheir to the artist. "The artist"
> could be anyone from the guy who composes in his closet songs no one
> will hear to multi-platinum recording artist that has toured the world
> for decades. The artist doesn't have to be a great guitar player, just
> someone who has been a mega-success at selling his or her music. So we
> won't exclude the singer-songwriter types or great entertainers. Just
> for this post, let's have a look at this group since let's face it
> they are the creme of the crop.
>
> So what are the big name players playing? Here's a short list: Eric
> Clapton (Fender, Martin), Willie Nelson (Martin), Johnny Cash
> (Martin), Merl Haggard (Martin), B.B. King (Gibson), John Lennon
> (Epiphone, others), Paul McCartney (Hofner, Martin, Epiphone, others),
> Elivis Presley (Martin), Robert Johnson (Gibson), Van Morrison
> (Martin), Hank Williams (Martin), George Jones (Martin), Garth Brooks
> (Takamine), Dave Matthews (Martin, Taylor, others), Bruce Springsteen
> (Fender, Takamine), Steve Ray Vaughan (Fender), John Mayer (Fender,
> Martin), Jimi Hendrix (Fender), Chet Atkins (Gibson), Steve Vai
> (Ibanez), Joe Satriani (Ibanez), John Petrucci (Music Man), George
> Benson (Ibanez), Randy Rhodes (Jackson), Slash (Gibson), Zakk Wylde
> (Gibson), Jimmy Page (Gibson)
>
> To tell you the truth, I'm struggling to think of a single player who
> uses private lutheir built instruments. Some of these cats have
> signature series guitars or play with custom shop models built for
> them by these companies, but the fact remains they choose to stay with
> big name builder instead of a private lutheir. A good number of them
> play with stock guitars from these makers. Billy Gibbons is one guy I
> know who I think only plays custom instruments at this point... But in
> the above list you'll find some of greatest folk, country and rock
> guitarist, songwriters, entertainer to have lived. So the bottom line
> is this: If private luthier built guitars are so amazing, why aren't
> more professionals playing them?
>
> This question becomes a two edged sword if you are trying to take a
> stand against my argument. Because if you say all these professional
> players are shallow and willing to take an endorsement's over playing
> a quality guitar then you just add fuel to the fire. If you take that
> stance, then you're essentially saying the quality of the guitar isn't
> that important to the pros and that they've been able to create their
> masterpieces and tour with crap, mass produced guitars, so you devalue
> the luthier on that argument.
>
> If you agree with me and say Gibson, Martin, Fender, Takamine, Ibanez,
> etc... have produced exceptional quality instruments worthy of the
> pros (which is an absolute true statement, which is easy to prove by
> looking at what the artist listed above are playing) then the question
> becomes why wouldn't the pay to have a private lutheir build them a
> guitar to their taste.
>
> The answer is the big name manufactures have already met the
> professional needs with exceptional product and anytime you buy a
> guitar from a private lutheir the risk are fairly high. With any
> product you have construction quality and you have the design itself,
> both are equally important and completely different. Companies like
> C.F. Martin, Gibson, Fender. Although most of them are not under the
> same ownership they once were, in many situations they are the only
> companies who can by law (thanks to patents) build their instruments
> the way they do, they own the design rights.
>
> So as an artist you can choose to buy a C.F. Martin, Fender, whatever
> and trust in their heritage and 50 or 150 years of guitar making
> knowledge or you can trust papa joe lutheir down the road who taught
> himself what he knows and his designs are based on his limited
> experience. Can papa joe build a better constructed instrument,
> probably... Can he design a better instrument? Most of the time, It's
> laughable no he can't. There is what I would guess is somewhere
> between a 1-5% chance (that's out my ass, it's probably much less than
> 1%) that this lutheir will have the scientific knowledge to innovate
> and create something unique enough to stand up against the patented
> designs of the big name builders (again, their techniques are proven
> over trial and error for decades).
>
> In the 1960's Ovation was such a company. In the 1970's Taylor, PRS
> Guitars in the 1980's, Parker guitars in the 1990's. Truely great
> lutheirs are diamonds among the rough. What do all these companies
> have in common (aside from mega-success) they all innovated the
> instrument. The lutheirs that started these companies were as much
> engineer as they were craftsman.
>
> As a lutheir or want-to-be luthier if you take the instrument further
> then by all means keep working at it. If you just intend to create a
> higher quality product using the same techniques everyone else is
> already doing then at best you'e creating one-off novelity products
> and serious musicians aren't going to EVER play with your product on a
> stage. What most aritst want is consistency and proven quality.....
> Again the instrument is our paint brush, it isn't suppose to be a work
> of art, it's support to be a well crafted tool to help us make art. If
> as a luthier you can give artist a new type of brush then you offer
> something of value, if not you don't. You can continue to build
> guitars for your enjoyment for arts sake, but realize where you stand.
>
>
> Design rises above construction quality. With time and care and a bit
> of love a craftsmen can build a quality instrument, but design is
> different. To innovate on design takes a deep understanding of why
> modern techniques work and a brilliant idea of how to improve on it.
> How many lutheirs do you know who fall in this group?
>
> When we get into what is "high quality" the little nuances that we
> loose with mass produced guitars are a small price to pay for superior
> design and consistency, the list of artist above prove this.
>
>
I thought this was a troll, until I saw that it came from he alt.guitar
braintrust...
I apprentice at just such a luthier. I'm not anywhere close to a "master"
level, but I know enough to know why his products are superior to a lot of
what is out there and why.
I could go through a whole dissertation, but here it is briefly.
1) quality vs. quantity. That's it in a nutshell. The major manufacturers
ALWAYS have an eye towards quantity and production costs, even on the
"Custom Shop" models. Everything is designed to flow through the assembly
line, cut on the CNC machine, paint and dry with the existing equipment and
little or no retooling. Every screw is life or death to the bean counters.
Understand, this is not NECESSARILY a bad thing; but it's the PRIMARY way
these guys think.
A true Luthier is not going to care about such things. They are going to
build your axe the right way, with the right tools and materials, for as
long as it takes to get it right. They could care less about Gantt Charts or
"productivity". If it's got their name on it, it's done when it's done -
even if that means taking a beating on the profit margin.
Also, I've seen the effects of substandard production work, and they ain't
pretty: cracked braces, bridges that pull up, poorly wired/poor quality
electronics, warped necks that can't be fixed. A few weeks ago, I watched my
buddy extract a trussrod from a Gibson Ripper that literally had the
dimensions of a COAT HANGER, and bent in my hand just as easily. The off the
shelf two way rod he replaced it with was easily THREE times the size.
When your business is TOTALLY based on numbers, you're going to cut corners
eventually.
2) What if you want, say, a 42 string multi-necked guitar, or a 6 string fan
fret bass with a custom wound pickup and MIDI electronics built in? You
can't call up Fender and ask for something like that.
Or rather, you CAN, but the price they will quote you is gonna be WAAAY
higher than your local luthier will charge.
And when you get into the "boutique bass" range - $1500 and up - you are
almost better off spending a couple hundred more to get an custom
made-from-scratch-measure-your-hand-for-the-radius bass, rather than an off
the shelf model.
3) I'd bet money that ALL the "pros" you mentioned have a few custom jobs
among their collections, and record with them. Not only are they
knowledgeable about guitars, but there are Luthiers who basically stake out
rock concerts, finagle their way backstage, and try to get a famous
guitarist to by their stuff.
Also, endorsements are BUSINESS relationships, not qualitative judgments. A
lot of guys will RECORD with the expensive stuff, and tour with whatever
they endorse. That way, the expensive shit doesn't get stolen, and they make
$$$ from endorsements.
And remember, Jerry played custom axes for most of his career.
Last, I'll leave you with this:
One night, I was watching the counter while my luthier buddy was checking
"tap tones" on a guitar top be was carving. He'd tap, then carve a little
bit, then tap some more, and so on for at least a few hours.
This redneck walks in, looking for some strings. As with about 90% of the
people who come in the store, he was seriously shocked that there were no
Fenders or Gibsons on the wall; just the store's guitars.
He says to me, kind of mocking, "what's the difference 'tween these here
"GUHtars" (that's how they say it in NC) an' a Les Paul?
I point to my buddy, with his ear to the guitar top, tapping every inch of
it and listening intently. "THAT'S the difference" I said.
"RMZ" <Jeremy.Deats@gmail,com > wrote in message
news:918a7cc3-8bd9-42e7-a507-9a378e0bf8df@u36g2000prf.googlegroups,com ...
> First of all, this post isn't for those who are just love to build
> guitars for your personal enjoyment or those who build guitars for the
> artistic aspect (art guitars). Guitar making techniques passed down
> from generation to generation is a beautiful thing and if people
> stopped then we wouldn't have a lot of the companies we do today. An
> example in point, In the early 1970's if Bob Taylor had decided C.F.
> Martin and Gibson had already done everything we would not have Taylor
> guitars today and it's reasonable to think that right now somewhere in
> the world a great lutheir has an innovative design that takes the
> instrument forward and someday their company will be known with the
> best of them.
>
> So this is where my topic begins, my problem isn't with the 1-5% of
> lutheir's that truely make a difference in the craft and take the
> instrument further in terms of a design, it's with the other 95% who
> may build an exceptional quality product, but never really innovate
> over what's been done before and seldom can match the design of
> Fender, Gibson, Martin etc... Now that I've touched on a never, let's
> explore the value of the private lutheir to the artist. "The artist"
> could be anyone from the guy who composes in his closet songs no one
> will hear to multi-platinum recording artist that has toured the world
> for decades. The artist doesn't have to be a great guitar player, just
> someone who has been a mega-success at selling his or her music. So we
> won't exclude the singer-songwriter types or great entertainers. Just
> for this post, let's have a look at this group since let's face it
> they are the creme of the crop.
>
> So what are the big name players playing? Here's a short list: Eric
> Clapton (Fender, Martin), Willie Nelson (Martin), Johnny Cash
> (Martin), Merl Haggard (Martin), B.B. King (Gibson), John Lennon
> (Epiphone, others), Paul McCartney (Hofner, Martin, Epiphone, others),
> Elivis Presley (Martin), Robert Johnson (Gibson), Van Morrison
> (Martin), Hank Williams (Martin), George Jones (Martin), Garth Brooks
> (Takamine), Dave Matthews (Martin, Taylor, others), Bruce Springsteen
> (Fender, Takamine), Steve Ray Vaughan (Fender), John Mayer (Fender,
> Martin), Jimi Hendrix (Fender), Chet Atkins (Gibson), Steve Vai
> (Ibanez), Joe Satriani (Ibanez), John Petrucci (Music Man), George
> Benson (Ibanez), Randy Rhodes (Jackson), Slash (Gibson), Zakk Wylde
> (Gibson), Jimmy Page (Gibson)
>
> To tell you the truth, I'm struggling to think of a single player who
> uses private lutheir built instruments. Some of these cats have
> signature series guitars or play with custom shop models built for
> them by these companies, but the fact remains they choose to stay with
> big name builder instead of a private lutheir. A good number of them
> play with stock guitars from these makers. Billy Gibbons is one guy I
> know who I think only plays custom instruments at this point... But in
> the above list you'll find some of greatest folk, country and rock
> guitarist, songwriters, entertainer to have lived. So the bottom line
> is this: If private luthier built guitars are so amazing, why aren't
> more professionals playing them?
>
> This question becomes a two edged sword if you are trying to take a
> stand against my argument. Because if you say all these professional
> players are shallow and willing to take an endorsement's over playing
> a quality guitar then you just add fuel to the fire. If you take that
> stance, then you're essentially saying the quality of the guitar isn't
> that important to the pros and that they've been able to create their
> masterpieces and tour with crap, mass produced guitars, so you devalue
> the luthier on that argument.
>
> If you agree with me and say Gibson, Martin, Fender, Takamine, Ibanez,
> etc... have produced exceptional quality instruments worthy of the
> pros (which is an absolute true statement, which is easy to prove by
> looking at what the artist listed above are playing) then the question
> becomes why wouldn't the pay to have a private lutheir build them a
> guitar to their taste.
>
> The answer is the big name manufactures have already met the
> professional needs with exceptional product and anytime you buy a
> guitar from a private lutheir the risk are fairly high. With any
> product you have construction quality and you have the design itself,
> both are equally important and completely different. Companies like
> C.F. Martin, Gibson, Fender. Although most of them are not under the
> same ownership they once were, in many situations they are the only
> companies who can by law (thanks to patents) build their instruments
> the way they do, they own the design rights.
>
> So as an artist you can choose to buy a C.F. Martin, Fender, whatever
> and trust in their heritage and 50 or 150 years of guitar making
> knowledge or you can trust papa joe lutheir down the road who taught
> himself what he knows and his designs are based on his limited
> experience. Can papa joe build a better constructed instrument,
> probably... Can he design a better instrument? Most of the time, It's
> laughable no he can't. There is what I would guess is somewhere
> between a 1-5% chance (that's out my ass, it's probably much less than
> 1%) that this lutheir will have the scientific knowledge to innovate
> and create something unique enough to stand up against the patented
> designs of the big name builders (again, their techniques are proven
> over trial and error for decades).
>
> In the 1960's Ovation was such a company. In the 1970's Taylor, PRS
> Guitars in the 1980's, Parker guitars in the 1990's. Truely great
> lutheirs are diamonds among the rough. What do all these companies
> have in common (aside from mega-success) they all innovated the
> instrument. The lutheirs that started these companies were as much
> engineer as they were craftsman.
>
> As a lutheir or want-to-be luthier if you take the instrument further
> then by all means keep working at it. If you just intend to create a
> higher quality product using the same techniques everyone else is
> already doing then at best you'e creating one-off novelity products
> and serious musicians aren't going to EVER play with your product on a
> stage. What most aritst want is consistency and proven quality.....
> Again the instrument is our paint brush, it isn't suppose to be a work
> of art, it's support to be a well crafted tool to help us make art. If
> as a luthier you can give artist a new type of brush then you offer
> something of value, if not you don't. You can continue to build
> guitars for your enjoyment for arts sake, but realize where you stand.
>
>
> Design rises above construction quality. With time and care and a bit
> of love a craftsmen can build a quality instrument, but design is
> different. To innovate on design takes a deep understanding of why
> modern techniques work and a brilliant idea of how to improve on it.
> How many lutheirs do you know who fall in this group?
>
> When we get into what is "high quality" the little nuances that we
> loose with mass produced guitars are a small price to pay for superior
> design and consistency, the list of artist above prove this.
>
>
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
"js" <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote:
> He says to me, kind of mocking, "what's the difference 'tween these here
> "GUHtars" (that's how they say it in NC) an' a Les Paul?
>
> I point to my buddy, with his ear to the guitar top, tapping every inch of
> it and listening intently. "THAT'S the difference" I said.
And I'll wager one doesn't have to worry about 'dead spots' with these
guitars...
--- Derek
--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http :// www .manyhands.co.nz/
"js" <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote:
> He says to me, kind of mocking, "what's the difference 'tween these here
> "GUHtars" (that's how they say it in NC) an' a Les Paul?
>
> I point to my buddy, with his ear to the guitar top, tapping every inch of
> it and listening intently. "THAT'S the difference" I said.
And I'll wager one doesn't have to worry about 'dead spots' with these
guitars...
--- Derek
--
Derek Tearne - derek@url.co.nz
Many Hands - Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand
http :// www .manyhands.co.nz/
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
js wrote:
> One night, I was watching the counter while my luthier buddy was checking
> "tap tones" on a guitar top be was carving. He'd tap, then carve a little
> bit, then tap some more, and so on for at least a few hours.
>
> This redneck walks in, looking for some strings. As with about 90% of the
> people who come in the store, he was seriously shocked that there were no
> Fenders or Gibsons on the wall; just the store's guitars.
>
> He says to me, kind of mocking, "what's the difference 'tween these here
> "GUHtars" (that's how they say it in NC) an' a Les Paul?
>
> I point to my buddy, with his ear to the guitar top, tapping every inch of
> it and listening intently. "THAT'S the difference" I said.
You mean the guy who made it was tweaked out on meth?
:-)
js wrote:
> One night, I was watching the counter while my luthier buddy was checking
> "tap tones" on a guitar top be was carving. He'd tap, then carve a little
> bit, then tap some more, and so on for at least a few hours.
>
> This redneck walks in, looking for some strings. As with about 90% of the
> people who come in the store, he was seriously shocked that there were no
> Fenders or Gibsons on the wall; just the store's guitars.
>
> He says to me, kind of mocking, "what's the difference 'tween these here
> "GUHtars" (that's how they say it in NC) an' a Les Paul?
>
> I point to my buddy, with his ear to the guitar top, tapping every inch of
> it and listening intently. "THAT'S the difference" I said.
You mean the guy who made it was tweaked out on meth?
:-)
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
js <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote:
> there are Luthiers who basically stake out rock concerts,
> finagle their way backstage, and try to get a famous guitarist
> to by their stuff.
Yup. That's basically how the luthier who made my custom guitar got his
start. Made one and brought it to a Police concert. Summers fooled
around with the guitar during their soundcheck and wound up buying it.
Full story of the luthier, my experiences, and the guitar he made for me
here, if anyone's interested:
http :// www .guitargearcentral,com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=105
js <nothing AT nothing DOT com> wrote:
> there are Luthiers who basically stake out rock concerts,
> finagle their way backstage, and try to get a famous guitarist
> to by their stuff.
Yup. That's basically how the luthier who made my custom guitar got his
start. Made one and brought it to a Police concert. Summers fooled
around with the guitar during their soundcheck and wound up buying it.
Full story of the luthier, my experiences, and the guitar he made for me
here, if anyone's interested:
http :// www .guitargearcentral,com /modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=105
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
"RMZ" <Jeremy.Deats@gmail,com > wrote in message
news:918a7cc3-8bd9-42e7-a507-9a378e0bf8df@u36g2000prf.googlegroups,com ...
> First of all, this post isn't for those who are just love to build
> guitars for your personal enjoyment or those who build guitars for the
> artistic aspect (art guitars). Guitar making techniques passed down
> from generation to generation is a beautiful thing and if people
> stopped then we wouldn't have a lot of the companies we do today. An
> example in point, In the early 1970's if Bob Taylor had decided C.F.
> Martin and Gibson had already done everything we would not have Taylor
> guitars today and it's reasonable to think that right now somewhere in
> the world a great lutheir has an innovative design that takes the
> instrument forward and someday their company will be known with the
> best of them.
>
> So this is where my topic begins, my problem isn't with the 1-5% of
> lutheir's that truely make a difference in the craft and take the
> instrument further in terms of a design, it's with the other 95% who
> may build an exceptional quality product, but never really innovate
> over what's been done before and seldom can match the design of
> Fender, Gibson, Martin etc... Now that I've touched on a never, let's
> explore the value of the private lutheir to the artist. "The artist"
> could be anyone from the guy who composes in his closet songs no one
> will hear to multi-platinum recording artist that has toured the world
> for decades. The artist doesn't have to be a great guitar player, just
> someone who has been a mega-success at selling his or her music. So we
> won't exclude the singer-songwriter types or great entertainers. Just
> for this post, let's have a look at this group since let's face it
> they are the creme of the crop.
>
> So what are the big name players playing? Here's a short list: Eric
> Clapton (Fender, Martin), Willie Nelson (Martin), Johnny Cash
> (Martin), Merl Haggard (Martin), B.B. King (Gibson), John Lennon
> (Epiphone, others), Paul McCartney (Hofner, Martin, Epiphone, others),
> Elivis Presley (Martin), Robert Johnson (Gibson), Van Morrison
> (Martin), Hank Williams (Martin), George Jones (Martin), Garth Brooks
> (Takamine), Dave Matthews (Martin, Taylor, others), Bruce Springsteen
> (Fender, Takamine), Steve Ray Vaughan (Fender), John Mayer (Fender,
> Martin), Jimi Hendrix (Fender), Chet Atkins (Gibson), Steve Vai
> (Ibanez), Joe Satriani (Ibanez), John Petrucci (Music Man), George
> Benson (Ibanez), Randy Rhodes (Jackson), Slash (Gibson), Zakk Wylde
> (Gibson), Jimmy Page (Gibson)
>
> To tell you the truth, I'm struggling to think of a single player who
> uses private lutheir built instruments. Some of these cats have
> signature series guitars or play with custom shop models built for
> them by these companies, but the fact remains they choose to stay with
> big name builder instead of a private lutheir. A good number of them
> play with stock guitars from these makers. Billy Gibbons is one guy I
> know who I think only plays custom instruments at this point... But in
> the above list you'll find some of greatest folk, country and rock
> guitarist, songwriters, entertainer to have lived. So the bottom line
> is this: If private luthier built guitars are so amazing, why aren't
> more professionals playing them?
>
> This question becomes a two edged sword if you are trying to take a
> stand against my argument. Because if you say all these professional
> players are shallow and willing to take an endorsement's over playing
> a quality guitar then you just add fuel to the fire. If you take that
> stance, then you're essentially saying the quality of the guitar isn't
> that important to the pros and that they've been able to create their
> masterpieces and tour with crap, mass produced guitars, so you devalue
> the luthier on that argument.
>
> If you agree with me and say Gibson, Martin, Fender, Takamine, Ibanez,
> etc... have produced exceptional quality instruments worthy of the
> pros (which is an absolute true statement, which is easy to prove by
> looking at what the artist listed above are playing) then the question
> becomes why wouldn't the pay to have a private lutheir build them a
> guitar to their taste.
>
> The answer is the big name manufactures have already met the
> professional needs with exceptional product and anytime you buy a
> guitar from a private lutheir the risk are fairly high. With any
> product you have construction quality and you have the design itself,
> both are equally important and completely different. Companies like
> C.F. Martin, Gibson, Fender. Although most of them are not under the
> same ownership they once were, in many situations they are the only
> companies who can by law (thanks to patents) build their instruments
> the way they do, they own the design rights.
>
> So as an artist you can choose to buy a C.F. Martin, Fender, whatever
> and trust in their heritage and 50 or 150 years of guitar making
> knowledge or you can trust papa joe lutheir down the road who taught
> himself what he knows and his designs are based on his limited
> experience. Can papa joe build a better constructed instrument,
> probably... Can he design a better instrument? Most of the time, It's
> laughable no he can't. There is what I would guess is somewhere
> between a 1-5% chance (that's out my ass, it's probably much less than
> 1%) that this lutheir will have the scientific knowledge to innovate
> and create something unique enough to stand up against the patented
> designs of the big name builders (again, their techniques are proven
> over trial and error for decades).
>
> In the 1960's Ovation was such a company. In the 1970's Taylor, PRS
> Guitars in the 1980's, Parker guitars in the 1990's. Truely great
> lutheirs are diamonds among the rough. What do all these companies
> have in common (aside from mega-success) they all innovated the
> instrument. The lutheirs that started these companies were as much
> engineer as they were craftsman.
>
> As a lutheir or want-to-be luthier if you take the instrument further
> then by all means keep working at it. If you just intend to create a
> higher quality product using the same techniques everyone else is
> already doing then at best you'e creating one-off novelity products
> and serious musicians aren't going to EVER play with your product on a
> stage. What most aritst want is consistency and proven quality.....
> Again the instrument is our paint brush, it isn't suppose to be a work
> of art, it's support to be a well crafted tool to help us make art. If
> as a luthier you can give artist a new type of brush then you offer
> something of value, if not you don't. You can continue to build
> guitars for your enjoyment for arts sake, but realize where you stand.
>
>
> Design rises above construction quality. With time and care and a bit
> of love a craftsmen can build a quality instrument, but design is
> different. To innovate on design takes a deep understanding of why
> modern techniques work and a brilliant idea of how to improve on it.
> How many lutheirs do you know who fall in this group?
>
> When we get into what is "high quality" the little nuances that we
> loose with mass produced guitars are a small price to pay for superior
> design and consistency, the list of artist above prove this.
>
You failed to mention 70's Gibsons and CBS fenders.
G&L and Heritage deserve an honourable mention if we are discussing history
and worthy crafstmen who have fled the corporate coop to establish reputable
companies producing highly regarded quality guitars, and probably the cream
of the crop as far as ex-pat fender and gibson luthiers go.
"RMZ" <Jeremy.Deats@gmail,com > wrote in message
news:918a7cc3-8bd9-42e7-a507-9a378e0bf8df@u36g2000prf.googlegroups,com ...
> First of all, this post isn't for those who are just love to build
> guitars for your personal enjoyment or those who build guitars for the
> artistic aspect (art guitars). Guitar making techniques passed down
> from generation to generation is a beautiful thing and if people
> stopped then we wouldn't have a lot of the companies we do today. An
> example in point, In the early 1970's if Bob Taylor had decided C.F.
> Martin and Gibson had already done everything we would not have Taylor
> guitars today and it's reasonable to think that right now somewhere in
> the world a great lutheir has an innovative design that takes the
> instrument forward and someday their company will be known with the
> best of them.
>
> So this is where my topic begins, my problem isn't with the 1-5% of
> lutheir's that truely make a difference in the craft and take the
> instrument further in terms of a design, it's with the other 95% who
> may build an exceptional quality product, but never really innovate
> over what's been done before and seldom can match the design of
> Fender, Gibson, Martin etc... Now that I've touched on a never, let's
> explore the value of the private lutheir to the artist. "The artist"
> could be anyone from the guy who composes in his closet songs no one
> will hear to multi-platinum recording artist that has toured the world
> for decades. The artist doesn't have to be a great guitar player, just
> someone who has been a mega-success at selling his or her music. So we
> won't exclude the singer-songwriter types or great entertainers. Just
> for this post, let's have a look at this group since let's face it
> they are the creme of the crop.
>
> So what are the big name players playing? Here's a short list: Eric
> Clapton (Fender, Martin), Willie Nelson (Martin), Johnny Cash
> (Martin), Merl Haggard (Martin), B.B. King (Gibson), John Lennon
> (Epiphone, others), Paul McCartney (Hofner, Martin, Epiphone, others),
> Elivis Presley (Martin), Robert Johnson (Gibson), Van Morrison
> (Martin), Hank Williams (Martin), George Jones (Martin), Garth Brooks
> (Takamine), Dave Matthews (Martin, Taylor, others), Bruce Springsteen
> (Fender, Takamine), Steve Ray Vaughan (Fender), John Mayer (Fender,
> Martin), Jimi Hendrix (Fender), Chet Atkins (Gibson), Steve Vai
> (Ibanez), Joe Satriani (Ibanez), John Petrucci (Music Man), George
> Benson (Ibanez), Randy Rhodes (Jackson), Slash (Gibson), Zakk Wylde
> (Gibson), Jimmy Page (Gibson)
>
> To tell you the truth, I'm struggling to think of a single player who
> uses private lutheir built instruments. Some of these cats have
> signature series guitars or play with custom shop models built for
> them by these companies, but the fact remains they choose to stay with
> big name builder instead of a private lutheir. A good number of them
> play with stock guitars from these makers. Billy Gibbons is one guy I
> know who I think only plays custom instruments at this point... But in
> the above list you'll find some of greatest folk, country and rock
> guitarist, songwriters, entertainer to have lived. So the bottom line
> is this: If private luthier built guitars are so amazing, why aren't
> more professionals playing them?
>
> This question becomes a two edged sword if you are trying to take a
> stand against my argument. Because if you say all these professional
> players are shallow and willing to take an endorsement's over playing
> a quality guitar then you just add fuel to the fire. If you take that
> stance, then you're essentially saying the quality of the guitar isn't
> that important to the pros and that they've been able to create their
> masterpieces and tour with crap, mass produced guitars, so you devalue
> the luthier on that argument.
>
> If you agree with me and say Gibson, Martin, Fender, Takamine, Ibanez,
> etc... have produced exceptional quality instruments worthy of the
> pros (which is an absolute true statement, which is easy to prove by
> looking at what the artist listed above are playing) then the question
> becomes why wouldn't the pay to have a private lutheir build them a
> guitar to their taste.
>
> The answer is the big name manufactures have already met the
> professional needs with exceptional product and anytime you buy a
> guitar from a private lutheir the risk are fairly high. With any
> product you have construction quality and you have the design itself,
> both are equally important and completely different. Companies like
> C.F. Martin, Gibson, Fender. Although most of them are not under the
> same ownership they once were, in many situations they are the only
> companies who can by law (thanks to patents) build their instruments
> the way they do, they own the design rights.
>
> So as an artist you can choose to buy a C.F. Martin, Fender, whatever
> and trust in their heritage and 50 or 150 years of guitar making
> knowledge or you can trust papa joe lutheir down the road who taught
> himself what he knows and his designs are based on his limited
> experience. Can papa joe build a better constructed instrument,
> probably... Can he design a better instrument? Most of the time, It's
> laughable no he can't. There is what I would guess is somewhere
> between a 1-5% chance (that's out my ass, it's probably much less than
> 1%) that this lutheir will have the scientific knowledge to innovate
> and create something unique enough to stand up against the patented
> designs of the big name builders (again, their techniques are proven
> over trial and error for decades).
>
> In the 1960's Ovation was such a company. In the 1970's Taylor, PRS
> Guitars in the 1980's, Parker guitars in the 1990's. Truely great
> lutheirs are diamonds among the rough. What do all these companies
> have in common (aside from mega-success) they all innovated the
> instrument. The lutheirs that started these companies were as much
> engineer as they were craftsman.
>
> As a lutheir or want-to-be luthier if you take the instrument further
> then by all means keep working at it. If you just intend to create a
> higher quality product using the same techniques everyone else is
> already doing then at best you'e creating one-off novelity products
> and serious musicians aren't going to EVER play with your product on a
> stage. What most aritst want is consistency and proven quality.....
> Again the instrument is our paint brush, it isn't suppose to be a work
> of art, it's support to be a well crafted tool to help us make art. If
> as a luthier you can give artist a new type of brush then you offer
> something of value, if not you don't. You can continue to build
> guitars for your enjoyment for arts sake, but realize where you stand.
>
>
> Design rises above construction quality. With time and care and a bit
> of love a craftsmen can build a quality instrument, but design is
> different. To innovate on design takes a deep understanding of why
> modern techniques work and a brilliant idea of how to improve on it.
> How many lutheirs do you know who fall in this group?
>
> When we get into what is "high quality" the little nuances that we
> loose with mass produced guitars are a small price to pay for superior
> design and consistency, the list of artist above prove this.
>
You failed to mention 70's Gibsons and CBS fenders.
G&L and Heritage deserve an honourable mention if we are discussing history
and worthy crafstmen who have fled the corporate coop to establish reputable
companies producing highly regarded quality guitars, and probably the cream
of the crop as far as ex-pat fender and gibson luthiers go.
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:08:27 -0700 (PDT), RMZ <Jeremy.Deats@gmail,com >
wrote:
>play with stock guitars from these makers. Billy Gibbons is one guy I
>know who I think only plays custom instruments at this point... But in
I saw ZZ Top play at Daytona a while back. Billy was playing a Gretsch
Billy-Bo (Billy Gibbons/Bo Diddley).
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:08:27 -0700 (PDT), RMZ <Jeremy.Deats@gmail,com >
wrote:
>play with stock guitars from these makers. Billy Gibbons is one guy I
>know who I think only plays custom instruments at this point... But in
I saw ZZ Top play at Daytona a while back. Billy was playing a Gretsch
Billy-Bo (Billy Gibbons/Bo Diddley).
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:08:27 -0700 (PDT), RMZ <Jeremy.Deats@gmail,com >
wrote:
>This question becomes a two edged sword if you are trying to take a
>stand against my argument. Because if you say all these professional
>players are shallow and willing to take an endorsement's over playing
>a quality guitar then you just add fuel to the fire. If you take that
>stance, then you're essentially saying the quality of the guitar isn't
>that important to the pros and that they've been able to create their
>masterpieces and tour with crap, mass produced guitars, so you devalue
>the luthier on that argument.
I think you are missing something important. Namely the middle ground
between private luthier and mass production. The artists you listed who are
playing big name guitars don't wait for their own signature guitar to be
released and then order it from MusiciansFriend,com . Their signature
guitars are tailored to them by the experienced luthiers at the big name
companies. I'd be willing to bet that the guitar that Clapton, or any other
signature artist, plays is actually not identical to the mass produced
signature models that bear their names. I would guess that many of them
have necks that are scratch built to the artists specs, while the
production model neck is a compromise.
The big name companies have experienced and skilled luthiers working for
them. However the mass produced product is, by definition, a compromise.
It is the difference between off-the-rack clothes and those tailored for
you and you alone. In the end there may be few objective differences. But
when it comes to the best guitarists, tiny differences are all that remains
to be noticed, so they do notice them. If they have the cash to have it
exactly their way, why not do it?
You are clearly upset by the idea of a private luthier getting any respect.
Why is that?
As for your idea that guitars are not art, that is ridiculous. A guitar
clearly *is* art. After the basic concept of playability is fulfilled, a
guitar can be anything the guitarist wants it to be. Thinking nothing of
the looks of a guitar is like having a souped up car that is forever in
primer. There is nothing wrong with eye candy.
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:08:27 -0700 (PDT), RMZ <Jeremy.Deats@gmail,com >
wrote:
>This question becomes a two edged sword if you are trying to take a
>stand against my argument. Because if you say all these professional
>players are shallow and willing to take an endorsement's over playing
>a quality guitar then you just add fuel to the fire. If you take that
>stance, then you're essentially saying the quality of the guitar isn't
>that important to the pros and that they've been able to create their
>masterpieces and tour with crap, mass produced guitars, so you devalue
>the luthier on that argument.
I think you are missing something important. Namely the middle ground
between private luthier and mass production. The artists you listed who are
playing big name guitars don't wait for their own signature guitar to be
released and then order it from MusiciansFriend,com . Their signature
guitars are tailored to them by the experienced luthiers at the big name
companies. I'd be willing to bet that the guitar that Clapton, or any other
signature artist, plays is actually not identical to the mass produced
signature models that bear their names. I would guess that many of them
have necks that are scratch built to the artists specs, while the
production model neck is a compromise.
The big name companies have experienced and skilled luthiers working for
them. However the mass produced product is, by definition, a compromise.
It is the difference between off-the-rack clothes and those tailored for
you and you alone. In the end there may be few objective differences. But
when it comes to the best guitarists, tiny differences are all that remains
to be noticed, so they do notice them. If they have the cash to have it
exactly their way, why not do it?
You are clearly upset by the idea of a private luthier getting any respect.
Why is that?
As for your idea that guitars are not art, that is ridiculous. A guitar
clearly *is* art. After the basic concept of playability is fulfilled, a
guitar can be anything the guitarist wants it to be. Thinking nothing of
the looks of a guitar is like having a souped up car that is forever in
primer. There is nothing wrong with eye candy.
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
Sounds to me like you have never had a guitar made for you.
Until you do, I would suggest you are giving an uniformed opinion.
As pointed out upstream, virtually all on your list DO have custom
instruments.
As RichL pointed out, they don't take their high end, precious
instruments on the road.
If you are say, Garth Brooks, and you are on tour, and need a Tak, how
tough would it be to get one?
Garth ain't playin the county fair in some backwater Okla town
anymore, but major cities.
Think Garth or his tech couldn't call the local dealer and get what he
wants delivered for the show that night?
I have a luthier made guitar in process currently, should be here
early August. I have sold a Gibson, Eastman, and maybe a PRS because
it will replace those.
I still have a Gibson and 2 Fender electrics, and a couple acoustics
from major makers. There is room in my herd for both.
Sounds to me like you have never had a guitar made for you.
Until you do, I would suggest you are giving an uniformed opinion.
As pointed out upstream, virtually all on your list DO have custom
instruments.
As RichL pointed out, they don't take their high end, precious
instruments on the road.
If you are say, Garth Brooks, and you are on tour, and need a Tak, how
tough would it be to get one?
Garth ain't playin the county fair in some backwater Okla town
anymore, but major cities.
Think Garth or his tech couldn't call the local dealer and get what he
wants delivered for the show that night?
I have a luthier made guitar in process currently, should be here
early August. I have sold a Gibson, Eastman, and maybe a PRS because
it will replace those.
I still have a Gibson and 2 Fender electrics, and a couple acoustics
from major makers. There is room in my herd for both.
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
>
> As for your idea that guitars are not art, that is ridiculous. A guitar
> clearly *is* art. After the basic concept of playability is fulfilled, a
> guitar can be anything the guitarist wants it to be.
A guitar can be a work of art. I never said it couldn't. To dazzling
inlay work on acoustics to custom body shapes and paint jobs on
electrics. Art-guitars are their own genre. Candy for the eye, but the
art that goes into a guitar does nothing for the musician who owns it
in terms of: songwriting, performance and recording. Essentially the
artist is buying a pretty paint brush.
What's much more important to the musician (unless they are some punk
or glam rock act where the stage dress up is critical) is having
consistent quality from a reputable vendor. If you buy a Martin D-28
it's not a work of art, or even a custom shop Fender Start it's not a
work of art. It's probably a well crafted product built on proven
design principles. Art isn't manufactured, but when it comes to the
tools a musician needs to create their music (their art) most often it
seems manufactured fits the bill.
>
> As for your idea that guitars are not art, that is ridiculous. A guitar
> clearly *is* art. After the basic concept of playability is fulfilled, a
> guitar can be anything the guitarist wants it to be.
A guitar can be a work of art. I never said it couldn't. To dazzling
inlay work on acoustics to custom body shapes and paint jobs on
electrics. Art-guitars are their own genre. Candy for the eye, but the
art that goes into a guitar does nothing for the musician who owns it
in terms of: songwriting, performance and recording. Essentially the
artist is buying a pretty paint brush.
What's much more important to the musician (unless they are some punk
or glam rock act where the stage dress up is critical) is having
consistent quality from a reputable vendor. If you buy a Martin D-28
it's not a work of art, or even a custom shop Fender Start it's not a
work of art. It's probably a well crafted product built on proven
design principles. Art isn't manufactured, but when it comes to the
tools a musician needs to create their music (their art) most often it
seems manufactured fits the bill.
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
> So what are the big name players playing?
Aside from the cynically-selective nature of your list, I gotta say, if
Johnny Cash, John Lennon, Elvis Presley, Robert Johnson, Hank Williams,
Stevie Ray Vaughn, Jimi Hendrix and Chet Atkins are playing their
Fenders, Martins and Gibsons at all anymore, then by God, you're right.
The mass-producers really do have an incredible product.
> So what are the big name players playing?
Aside from the cynically-selective nature of your list, I gotta say, if
Johnny Cash, John Lennon, Elvis Presley, Robert Johnson, Hank Williams,
Stevie Ray Vaughn, Jimi Hendrix and Chet Atkins are playing their
Fenders, Martins and Gibsons at all anymore, then by God, you're right.
The mass-producers really do have an incredible product.
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
On 21 Apr, 09:59, Brian Running <brunn...@XXameritechXX,net > wrote:
> > So what are the big name players playing?
>
> Aside from the cynically-selective nature of your list, I gotta say, if
> Johnny Cash, John Lennon, Elvis Presley, Robert Johnson, Hank Williams,
> Stevie Ray Vaughn, Jimi Hendrix and Chet Atkins are playing their
> Fenders, Martins and Gibsons at all anymore, then by God, you're right.
> The mass-producers really do have an incredible product.
This has got to be the silliest thread I've seen on this group. The
stars who play name brand guitars get money from the manufacturer for
it unless they are among the stupid musicians that are around. A few
of them have written on this thread. Furthermore, IMO, a luthier is
one who makes acoustic instruments not some fucking carpenter that
builds planks and assembles electronics. Nuff said.
TS
On 21 Apr, 09:59, Brian Running <brunn...@XXameritechXX,net > wrote:
> > So what are the big name players playing?
>
> Aside from the cynically-selective nature of your list, I gotta say, if
> Johnny Cash, John Lennon, Elvis Presley, Robert Johnson, Hank Williams,
> Stevie Ray Vaughn, Jimi Hendrix and Chet Atkins are playing their
> Fenders, Martins and Gibsons at all anymore, then by God, you're right.
> The mass-producers really do have an incredible product.
This has got to be the silliest thread I've seen on this group. The
stars who play name brand guitars get money from the manufacturer for
it unless they are among the stupid musicians that are around. A few
of them have written on this thread. Furthermore, IMO, a luthier is
one who makes acoustic instruments not some fucking carpenter that
builds planks and assembles electronics. Nuff said.
TS
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
On Apr 21, 11:46 am, TS <tshaw7...@sbcglobal,net > wrote:
> This has got to be the silliest thread I've seen on this group.
Oh... I've seen far sillier.
But I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned a couple of big
names in this thread: Brian May - who's spent most of his career
playing his self-made "Red Special". (I guess that makes May himself a
luthier.) And Lindsay Buckingham - who's rarely been seen during the
last 30-something years without a custom Rick Turner guitar.
> Furthermore, IMO, a luthier is
> one who makes acoustic instruments not some fucking carpenter that
> builds planks and assembles electronics. Nuff said.
Why just acoustics? Building a fine electric (especially a hollow-
body) from scratch takes as much skill, IMO. I'm not talking about
buying parts from Warmoth and putting them together, but designing and
hand-carving everything. I consider a D'Angelico jazz guitar as much a
work of art as any Martin.
- Rich
On Apr 21, 11:46 am, TS <tshaw7...@sbcglobal,net > wrote:
> This has got to be the silliest thread I've seen on this group.
Oh... I've seen far sillier.
But I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned a couple of big
names in this thread: Brian May - who's spent most of his career
playing his self-made "Red Special". (I guess that makes May himself a
luthier.) And Lindsay Buckingham - who's rarely been seen during the
last 30-something years without a custom Rick Turner guitar.
> Furthermore, IMO, a luthier is
> one who makes acoustic instruments not some fucking carpenter that
> builds planks and assembles electronics. Nuff said.
Why just acoustics? Building a fine electric (especially a hollow-
body) from scratch takes as much skill, IMO. I'm not talking about
buying parts from Warmoth and putting them together, but designing and
hand-carving everything. I consider a D'Angelico jazz guitar as much a
work of art as any Martin.
- Rich
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
Dr. Zontar wrote:
> But I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned a couple of big
> names in this thread: Brian May - who's spent most of his career
> playing his self-made "Red Special". (I guess that makes May himself a
> luthier.) And Lindsay Buckingham - who's rarely been seen during the
> last 30-something years without a custom Rick Turner guitar.
Buckingham was one that occured to me too, but as specific examples of
famous players using custom or small-scale-production instruments didn't
seem to register with the originator of the thread I didn't see much point
in bringing it up.
>> Furthermore, IMO, a luthier is
>> one who makes acoustic instruments not some fucking carpenter that
>> builds planks and assembles electronics. Nuff said.
>
> Why just acoustics? Building a fine electric (especially a hollow-
> body) from scratch takes as much skill, IMO. I'm not talking about
> buying parts from Warmoth and putting them together, but designing and
> hand-carving everything. I consider a D'Angelico jazz guitar as much a
> work of art as any Martin.
>
> - Rich
For that matter anyone who thinks a top of the line PRS or similar
solid-body instrument is just a "plank" and some electronics slapped
together by a "fucking carpenter" should really try it for himself and see
what sort of results he gets.
Dr. Zontar wrote:
> But I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned a couple of big
> names in this thread: Brian May - who's spent most of his career
> playing his self-made "Red Special". (I guess that makes May himself a
> luthier.) And Lindsay Buckingham - who's rarely been seen during the
> last 30-something years without a custom Rick Turner guitar.
Buckingham was one that occured to me too, but as specific examples of
famous players using custom or small-scale-production instruments didn't
seem to register with the originator of the thread I didn't see much point
in bringing it up.
>> Furthermore, IMO, a luthier is
>> one who makes acoustic instruments not some fucking carpenter that
>> builds planks and assembles electronics. Nuff said.
>
> Why just acoustics? Building a fine electric (especially a hollow-
> body) from scratch takes as much skill, IMO. I'm not talking about
> buying parts from Warmoth and putting them together, but designing and
> hand-carving everything. I consider a D'Angelico jazz guitar as much a
> work of art as any Martin.
>
> - Rich
For that matter anyone who thinks a top of the line PRS or similar
solid-body instrument is just a "plank" and some electronics slapped
together by a "fucking carpenter" should really try it for himself and see
what sort of results he gets.
Re: Why I feel private lutheirs are largely over rated.
Dr. Zontar <drzontar@yahoo,com > wrote:
> On Apr 21, 11:46 am, TS <tshaw7...@sbcglobal,net > wrote:
>
>> This has got to be the silliest thread I've seen on this group.
>
> Oh... I've seen far sillier.
>
> But I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned a couple of big
> names in this thread: Brian May - who's spent most of his career
> playing his self-made "Red Special". (I guess that makes May himself a
> luthier.)
Good example.
Also, as it turns out, when Brian wanted some copies of the guitar, he
contracted with a "private luthier" to have them made.
Dr. Zontar <drzontar@yahoo,com > wrote:
> On Apr 21, 11:46 am, TS <tshaw7...@sbcglobal,net > wrote:
>
>> This has got to be the silliest thread I've seen on this group.
>
> Oh... I've seen far sillier.
>
> But I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned a couple of big
> names in this thread: Brian May - who's spent most of his career
> playing his self-made "Red Special". (I guess that makes May himself a
> luthier.)
Good example.
Also, as it turns out, when Brian wanted some copies of the guitar, he
contracted with a "private luthier" to have them made.
