Add group to favorites
Back to post list
Send new message to group Search:
Post Subject:
are you really safer now
Re: are you really safer now
yaofeng wrote:
> Apparently enough people still think the TSA is not a dog and pony
> show we are still paying to have them at the airports. I am one of
> them. I don't like it but I learn to live with it as part of the
> hassle when I travel. If you find a way to have a knife with a six
> inch blade to get pass the security check point please let me know.
> Not that I need it. Actually, all carriers have switched back to
> stainless steel silverware after a brief period following 9/11 using
> plastic ones.
1. The point I was making had nothing to do with weapons, just on the
effectiveness of a list of "known" terrorist suspects that would be
either prevented from flying or subject to more screening. This part of
the plan, for domestic travel, is clearly ineffective. The people that
are most affected by it are the false positives. Real terrorists are not
going to be affected by it.
2. Many items (such as utensils, flatware, bottles, and cans) that are
readily available on an aircraft can be used as weapons.
3. Rules that restrict passengers to using lavoratories in their cabin
are also ineffective against terrorism. There is nothing preventing
terrorists from getting tickets in the cabins they want to be in.
yaofeng wrote:
> Apparently enough people still think the TSA is not a dog and pony
> show we are still paying to have them at the airports. I am one of
> them. I don't like it but I learn to live with it as part of the
> hassle when I travel. If you find a way to have a knife with a six
> inch blade to get pass the security check point please let me know.
> Not that I need it. Actually, all carriers have switched back to
> stainless steel silverware after a brief period following 9/11 using
> plastic ones.
1. The point I was making had nothing to do with weapons, just on the
effectiveness of a list of "known" terrorist suspects that would be
either prevented from flying or subject to more screening. This part of
the plan, for domestic travel, is clearly ineffective. The people that
are most affected by it are the false positives. Real terrorists are not
going to be affected by it.
2. Many items (such as utensils, flatware, bottles, and cans) that are
readily available on an aircraft can be used as weapons.
3. Rules that restrict passengers to using lavoratories in their cabin
are also ineffective against terrorism. There is nothing preventing
terrorists from getting tickets in the cabins they want to be in.
Re: are you really safer now
yaofeng wrote:
> I agree the ID check at the TSA screening point is not strigent
> enough. The person simply compares your BP with your photo ID and
> sees if you are the person you say you are. So you'll have to
> convince the airline couner agent with your fake ID to get your BP.
> Either that or you produce a set of fake ID and a fake BP all by
> yourself. Can it be done? In the movies probably.
As indicated, you would not get your BP at the counter.
> Hunt said you can check in online or do self check-in without going to
> the counter if you do not have a bag to check. I have never done
> that. But in order to do that you would have established your
> credentials with the airlines.
No, you don't need any "credentials" to do this.
You could go to a Travel Agent or Ticket Counter and pay cash.
You could go to a supermarket and by an airline gift card and pay cash.
Of course, since the name on the ticket is not going to be in the name
of a known terrorist, the ID of who bought the ticket doesn't have to
have anything to do with who is flying.
Can they be faked? Maybe in the
> movies again.
>
> I don't believe you guys. You are a bunch of conspiracy theory
> advocates. Do you know the hurdles you have to cross to get ID's
> nowadays?
Forget the ID.
As stated, you do NOT need any "credentials" to check in online or at
the kiosk. All you need is a reservation.
The point is that when you check in online, you are NOT checking in as
the person known as a terrorist. You check in normally.
1. Check in online
2. Print out boarding pass (if you don't have the ability to edit it online)
3. Print out name that matches ID using the similar fonts
4. Past name over real BP that was created
5. Place both on copy machine with new name covering name on BP
6. You now have a BP with the new name that matches your ID
It doesn't matter if this ID is checked at the screening area, because
nobody is comparing it to a watch list.
7. After getting through security, use BP with correct name to board
aircraft as some machines will display the pax name when boarding and
the name on the BP should match the reservation name. The fake BP is NOT
used at this point.
You must have heard the 6 point program. Have you not?
> But your premises are on the basis all the photo ID's can be easily
> faked.
No, my premise is based on the fact that Boarding Passes are easily
faked. You don't understand this any better than you understand FICA
withholding.
yaofeng wrote:
> I agree the ID check at the TSA screening point is not strigent
> enough. The person simply compares your BP with your photo ID and
> sees if you are the person you say you are. So you'll have to
> convince the airline couner agent with your fake ID to get your BP.
> Either that or you produce a set of fake ID and a fake BP all by
> yourself. Can it be done? In the movies probably.
As indicated, you would not get your BP at the counter.
> Hunt said you can check in online or do self check-in without going to
> the counter if you do not have a bag to check. I have never done
> that. But in order to do that you would have established your
> credentials with the airlines.
No, you don't need any "credentials" to do this.
You could go to a Travel Agent or Ticket Counter and pay cash.
You could go to a supermarket and by an airline gift card and pay cash.
Of course, since the name on the ticket is not going to be in the name
of a known terrorist, the ID of who bought the ticket doesn't have to
have anything to do with who is flying.
Can they be faked? Maybe in the
> movies again.
>
> I don't believe you guys. You are a bunch of conspiracy theory
> advocates. Do you know the hurdles you have to cross to get ID's
> nowadays?
Forget the ID.
As stated, you do NOT need any "credentials" to check in online or at
the kiosk. All you need is a reservation.
The point is that when you check in online, you are NOT checking in as
the person known as a terrorist. You check in normally.
1. Check in online
2. Print out boarding pass (if you don't have the ability to edit it online)
3. Print out name that matches ID using the similar fonts
4. Past name over real BP that was created
5. Place both on copy machine with new name covering name on BP
6. You now have a BP with the new name that matches your ID
It doesn't matter if this ID is checked at the screening area, because
nobody is comparing it to a watch list.
7. After getting through security, use BP with correct name to board
aircraft as some machines will display the pax name when boarding and
the name on the BP should match the reservation name. The fake BP is NOT
used at this point.
You must have heard the 6 point program. Have you not?
> But your premises are on the basis all the photo ID's can be easily
> faked.
No, my premise is based on the fact that Boarding Passes are easily
faked. You don't understand this any better than you understand FICA
withholding.
Re: are you really safer now
On 16 Mar 2007 06:21:07 -0700, "yaofeng" <yaofengchen@gmail . com >
wrote:
>On Mar 16, 8:52 am, "me" <oconn...@slr.orl.lmco . com > wrote:
>> On Mar 16, 8:39 am, "yaofeng" <yaofengc...@gmail . com > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 16, 1:53 am, Mike Hunt <postmaster@localhost> wrote:
>>
>> > > Randy Hudson wrote:
>> > > > In article <1173915532.570112.255...@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups . com >,
>> > > > yaofeng <yaofengc...@gmail . com > wrote:
>>
>> > > >>Your argument is so far fetch it is not even funny. Are you saying
>> > > >>you can board a plane without a valid ID nowadays?
>>
>> > > > Yes. On different occasions, my daughter, my GF, and I have each done that,
>> > > > all in domestic US travel.
>>
>> > > Yes, but my point was that even with the ID checkpoint before TSA
>> > > screening, you can present an ID that matches a boarding pass and it is
>> > > possible that either the ID or BP is fake since they are not validated
>> > > at that point. You could then board the plane using a real BP as you do
>> > > not need to present ID to get a real BP.
>>
>> > Sounds good in theory. Has it been done? Had you tried, you'll
>> > probably be in Guantanamo Bay right now.
>>
>> Remember, you'd be talking about someone who is willing to take
>> pretty high risks, so the simplicity of doing this would make it
>> inviting.
>> What Mr. Hunt is saying is correct, the ID check at the TSA
>> screening point is a half measure at best. There is no check to
>> see if the boarding pass is valid. There is no check to see if the
>> ID is valid (oh, some cursory stuff, but nothing that one couldn't
>> easily fake). There is no check to see if the name on the ID
>> or BP is someone of which to be concerned. There is no check
>> to see if the ID belongs to the person other than the photo
>> comparison. The ID/BP check at the check point is relatively
>> pointless, and is used mostly just to limit the numbers of people
>> trying to pass through security.
>>
>> As I've said before, if you are waiting until a person shows up
>> at the airport to try to decide if they are a "person of interest"
>> you have waited way too long. And if you are hoping that the
>> person checking ID's (who is rarely TSA) or the counter
>> agent who is issueing BP's is going to be highly diligent,
>> you're dreaming. The agent does what the computer tells
>> them they have to do. The ID checkers are looking at
>> exactly 3 things, none of which enhance security.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>I agree the ID check at the TSA screening point is not strigent
>enough. The person simply compares your BP with your photo ID and
>sees if you are the person you say you are. So you'll have to
>convince the airline couner agent with your fake ID to get your BP.
>Either that or you produce a set of fake ID and a fake BP all by
>yourself. Can it be done? In the movies probably.
>
>Hunt said you can check in online or do self check-in without going to
>the counter if you do not have a bag to check. I have never done
>that. But in order to do that you would have established your
>credentials with the airlines. Can they be faked? Maybe in the
>movies again.
>
Ask any high school kid who drinks where to get a decent fake I.D. Or
use Google or ask your gardener or hotel maid..they may well have a
good fake ID or know where to get them..they are very easy to find.
With print-at-home boarding passes all you need is some skill with a
scanner and photoshop or similar and that boarding pass your wife used
last year will now get Mr. B. Bunny past security in a trifle.
There are 50 states and a couple of territories plus D.C., all of
which issue ID and liicenses...the $9/hour clown standing at the
airport entrance is not going to have the highly-trained skills needed
to be able to verify the ID you show is genuine and certainly doesn't
have the computer links needed to determine if the person named on the
license even exists...I think there's at least two states that still
do not have computerized records and which do have strong privacy laws
preventing outside access to that data....oh and every government
agency issues identification cards also...quite valid for this silly
check...do *you* know what the I.D. card issued by the Rural
Electrification Agency looks like? How about the Bureau of Weights
and Measures? Ever seen a Latverian passport? Would you know if one
is real or fake..or even if Latveria exists right off the top of your
head...people have succesfully used "Conch Republic" "diplomatic"
passports to fool cops on a couple of occasions.
Steal a credit card or buy access onlihe..buy the ticket in that
name...print up a fake boarding pass but use a real one to get on the
plane and the entire security system just became worthless.
Weapons? Everything is a weapon. There is a martial arts system that
usesd a tightly rolled up magazine as a baton and choking instrument.
No one checks ball point pens, they assume there's metal in
them...replace the soft metal ink cartridge with a tempered steel rod
pointed at the end like a ball point and you've a dandy stabbing
weapon. Obsidian won't trip a metal detector and you can make a blade
with it sharp enough for surgery....there are surgeons using such
blades today because they are sharper than steel and harder.
Weapons? Ask anyone with SEAL or SAS training or other real fighting
skills what can be used as a weapon...but be preapred as the list is
endless.
Willpower is what was used in 9/11, the toy knives they had were
worthless, but they had the will to force people to do their bidding.
If security screenings and thorough body searches worked, then a
maximum security prison would be the safest place on the plaent. Yet
oddly no one wants their teenage daughter to be left in one overnight.
Jim P.
On 16 Mar 2007 06:21:07 -0700, "yaofeng" <yaofengchen@gmail . com >
wrote:
>On Mar 16, 8:52 am, "me" <oconn...@slr.orl.lmco . com > wrote:
>> On Mar 16, 8:39 am, "yaofeng" <yaofengc...@gmail . com > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 16, 1:53 am, Mike Hunt <postmaster@localhost> wrote:
>>
>> > > Randy Hudson wrote:
>> > > > In article <1173915532.570112.255...@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups . com >,
>> > > > yaofeng <yaofengc...@gmail . com > wrote:
>>
>> > > >>Your argument is so far fetch it is not even funny. Are you saying
>> > > >>you can board a plane without a valid ID nowadays?
>>
>> > > > Yes. On different occasions, my daughter, my GF, and I have each done that,
>> > > > all in domestic US travel.
>>
>> > > Yes, but my point was that even with the ID checkpoint before TSA
>> > > screening, you can present an ID that matches a boarding pass and it is
>> > > possible that either the ID or BP is fake since they are not validated
>> > > at that point. You could then board the plane using a real BP as you do
>> > > not need to present ID to get a real BP.
>>
>> > Sounds good in theory. Has it been done? Had you tried, you'll
>> > probably be in Guantanamo Bay right now.
>>
>> Remember, you'd be talking about someone who is willing to take
>> pretty high risks, so the simplicity of doing this would make it
>> inviting.
>> What Mr. Hunt is saying is correct, the ID check at the TSA
>> screening point is a half measure at best. There is no check to
>> see if the boarding pass is valid. There is no check to see if the
>> ID is valid (oh, some cursory stuff, but nothing that one couldn't
>> easily fake). There is no check to see if the name on the ID
>> or BP is someone of which to be concerned. There is no check
>> to see if the ID belongs to the person other than the photo
>> comparison. The ID/BP check at the check point is relatively
>> pointless, and is used mostly just to limit the numbers of people
>> trying to pass through security.
>>
>> As I've said before, if you are waiting until a person shows up
>> at the airport to try to decide if they are a "person of interest"
>> you have waited way too long. And if you are hoping that the
>> person checking ID's (who is rarely TSA) or the counter
>> agent who is issueing BP's is going to be highly diligent,
>> you're dreaming. The agent does what the computer tells
>> them they have to do. The ID checkers are looking at
>> exactly 3 things, none of which enhance security.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>I agree the ID check at the TSA screening point is not strigent
>enough. The person simply compares your BP with your photo ID and
>sees if you are the person you say you are. So you'll have to
>convince the airline couner agent with your fake ID to get your BP.
>Either that or you produce a set of fake ID and a fake BP all by
>yourself. Can it be done? In the movies probably.
>
>Hunt said you can check in online or do self check-in without going to
>the counter if you do not have a bag to check. I have never done
>that. But in order to do that you would have established your
>credentials with the airlines. Can they be faked? Maybe in the
>movies again.
>
Ask any high school kid who drinks where to get a decent fake I.D. Or
use Google or ask your gardener or hotel maid..they may well have a
good fake ID or know where to get them..they are very easy to find.
With print-at-home boarding passes all you need is some skill with a
scanner and photoshop or similar and that boarding pass your wife used
last year will now get Mr. B. Bunny past security in a trifle.
There are 50 states and a couple of territories plus D.C., all of
which issue ID and liicenses...the $9/hour clown standing at the
airport entrance is not going to have the highly-trained skills needed
to be able to verify the ID you show is genuine and certainly doesn't
have the computer links needed to determine if the person named on the
license even exists...I think there's at least two states that still
do not have computerized records and which do have strong privacy laws
preventing outside access to that data....oh and every government
agency issues identification cards also...quite valid for this silly
check...do *you* know what the I.D. card issued by the Rural
Electrification Agency looks like? How about the Bureau of Weights
and Measures? Ever seen a Latverian passport? Would you know if one
is real or fake..or even if Latveria exists right off the top of your
head...people have succesfully used "Conch Republic" "diplomatic"
passports to fool cops on a couple of occasions.
Steal a credit card or buy access onlihe..buy the ticket in that
name...print up a fake boarding pass but use a real one to get on the
plane and the entire security system just became worthless.
Weapons? Everything is a weapon. There is a martial arts system that
usesd a tightly rolled up magazine as a baton and choking instrument.
No one checks ball point pens, they assume there's metal in
them...replace the soft metal ink cartridge with a tempered steel rod
pointed at the end like a ball point and you've a dandy stabbing
weapon. Obsidian won't trip a metal detector and you can make a blade
with it sharp enough for surgery....there are surgeons using such
blades today because they are sharper than steel and harder.
Weapons? Ask anyone with SEAL or SAS training or other real fighting
skills what can be used as a weapon...but be preapred as the list is
endless.
Willpower is what was used in 9/11, the toy knives they had were
worthless, but they had the will to force people to do their bidding.
If security screenings and thorough body searches worked, then a
maximum security prison would be the safest place on the plaent. Yet
oddly no one wants their teenage daughter to be left in one overnight.
Jim P.
Re: are you really safer now
<nobody@spamcop . net > wrote in message
news:32f603ts8t3gnpa524dka06i9t9uhc921k@4ax . com ...
> On 16 Mar 2007 06:21:07 -0700, "yaofeng" <yaofengchen@gmail . com >
> wrote:
>
>>On Mar 16, 8:52 am, "me" <oconn...@slr.orl.lmco . com > wrote:
>>> On Mar 16, 8:39 am, "yaofeng" <yaofengc...@gmail . com > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Mar 16, 1:53 am, Mike Hunt <postmaster@localhost> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > Randy Hudson wrote:
>>> > > > In article <1173915532.570112.255...@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups . com >,
>>> > > > yaofeng <yaofengc...@gmail . com > wrote:
>>>
>>> > > >>Your argument is so far fetch it is not even funny. Are you
>>> > > >>saying
>>> > > >>you can board a plane without a valid ID nowadays?
>>>
>>> > > > Yes. On different occasions, my daughter, my GF, and I have each
>>> > > > done that,
>>> > > > all in domestic US travel.
>>>
>>> > > Yes, but my point was that even with the ID checkpoint before TSA
>>> > > screening, you can present an ID that matches a boarding pass and it
>>> > > is
>>> > > possible that either the ID or BP is fake since they are not
>>> > > validated
>>> > > at that point. You could then board the plane using a real BP as you
>>> > > do
>>> > > not need to present ID to get a real BP.
>>>
>>> > Sounds good in theory. Has it been done? Had you tried, you'll
>>> > probably be in Guantanamo Bay right now.
>>>
>>> Remember, you'd be talking about someone who is willing to take
>>> pretty high risks, so the simplicity of doing this would make it
>>> inviting.
>>> What Mr. Hunt is saying is correct, the ID check at the TSA
>>> screening point is a half measure at best. There is no check to
>>> see if the boarding pass is valid. There is no check to see if the
>>> ID is valid (oh, some cursory stuff, but nothing that one couldn't
>>> easily fake). There is no check to see if the name on the ID
>>> or BP is someone of which to be concerned. There is no check
>>> to see if the ID belongs to the person other than the photo
>>> comparison. The ID/BP check at the check point is relatively
>>> pointless, and is used mostly just to limit the numbers of people
>>> trying to pass through security.
>>>
>>> As I've said before, if you are waiting until a person shows up
>>> at the airport to try to decide if they are a "person of interest"
>>> you have waited way too long. And if you are hoping that the
>>> person checking ID's (who is rarely TSA) or the counter
>>> agent who is issueing BP's is going to be highly diligent,
>>> you're dreaming. The agent does what the computer tells
>>> them they have to do. The ID checkers are looking at
>>> exactly 3 things, none of which enhance security.- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>I agree the ID check at the TSA screening point is not strigent
>>enough. The person simply compares your BP with your photo ID and
>>sees if you are the person you say you are. So you'll have to
>>convince the airline couner agent with your fake ID to get your BP.
>>Either that or you produce a set of fake ID and a fake BP all by
>>yourself. Can it be done? In the movies probably.
>>
>>Hunt said you can check in online or do self check-in without going to
>>the counter if you do not have a bag to check. I have never done
>>that. But in order to do that you would have established your
>>credentials with the airlines. Can they be faked? Maybe in the
>>movies again.
>>
>
> Ask any high school kid who drinks where to get a decent fake I.D. Or
> use Google or ask your gardener or hotel maid..they may well have a
> good fake ID or know where to get them..they are very easy to find.
>
> With print-at-home boarding passes all you need is some skill with a
> scanner and photoshop or similar and that boarding pass your wife used
> last year will now get Mr. B. Bunny past security in a trifle.
>
> There are 50 states and a couple of territories plus D.C., all of
> which issue ID and liicenses...the $9/hour clown standing at the
> airport entrance is not going to have the highly-trained skills needed
> to be able to verify the ID you show is genuine and certainly doesn't
> have the computer links needed to determine if the person named on the
> license even exists...I think there's at least two states that still
> do not have computerized records and which do have strong privacy laws
> preventing outside access to that data....oh and every government
> agency issues identification cards also...quite valid for this silly
> check...do *you* know what the I.D. card issued by the Rural
> Electrification Agency looks like? How about the Bureau of Weights
> and Measures? Ever seen a Latverian passport? Would you know if one
> is real or fake..or even if Latveria exists right off the top of your
> head...people have succesfully used "Conch Republic" "diplomatic"
> passports to fool cops on a couple of occasions.
>
> Steal a credit card or buy access onlihe..buy the ticket in that
> name...print up a fake boarding pass but use a real one to get on the
> plane and the entire security system just became worthless.
>
> Weapons? Everything is a weapon. There is a martial arts system that
> usesd a tightly rolled up magazine as a baton and choking instrument.
>
> No one checks ball point pens, they assume there's metal in
> them...replace the soft metal ink cartridge with a tempered steel rod
> pointed at the end like a ball point and you've a dandy stabbing
> weapon. Obsidian won't trip a metal detector and you can make a blade
> with it sharp enough for surgery....there are surgeons using such
> blades today because they are sharper than steel and harder.
>
> Weapons? Ask anyone with SEAL or SAS training or other real fighting
> skills what can be used as a weapon...but be preapred as the list is
> endless.
>
> Willpower is what was used in 9/11, the toy knives they had were
> worthless, but they had the will to force people to do their bidding.
>
> If security screenings and thorough body searches worked, then a
> maximum security prison would be the safest place on the plaent. Yet
> oddly no one wants their teenage daughter to be left in one overnight.
>
> Jim P.
The bottom line is there hasn't been another airline hijacking like 9-11
since 9-11. So, however ludicrous the system may be (and I've watched the
idiots almost strip search my 95 year old father because he's in a
wheelchair), the TSA folks aren't that untrained. Dumb? Some of them are,
some aren't. But, like most civil servants everywhere, the way you succeed
in your job is "don't make waves." So don't expect them to deviate from the
"book." But don't think you aren't safer now than you were previously,
whether or not you are inconvenienced (and I just traveled yesterday with
the dreaded "SSSS" on my boarding pass....
Jeff
<nobody@spamcop . net > wrote in message
news:32f603ts8t3gnpa524dka06i9t9uhc921k@4ax . com ...
> On 16 Mar 2007 06:21:07 -0700, "yaofeng" <yaofengchen@gmail . com >
> wrote:
>
>>On Mar 16, 8:52 am, "me" <oconn...@slr.orl.lmco . com > wrote:
>>> On Mar 16, 8:39 am, "yaofeng" <yaofengc...@gmail . com > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Mar 16, 1:53 am, Mike Hunt <postmaster@localhost> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > Randy Hudson wrote:
>>> > > > In article <1173915532.570112.255...@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups . com >,
>>> > > > yaofeng <yaofengc...@gmail . com > wrote:
>>>
>>> > > >>Your argument is so far fetch it is not even funny. Are you
>>> > > >>saying
>>> > > >>you can board a plane without a valid ID nowadays?
>>>
>>> > > > Yes. On different occasions, my daughter, my GF, and I have each
>>> > > > done that,
>>> > > > all in domestic US travel.
>>>
>>> > > Yes, but my point was that even with the ID checkpoint before TSA
>>> > > screening, you can present an ID that matches a boarding pass and it
>>> > > is
>>> > > possible that either the ID or BP is fake since they are not
>>> > > validated
>>> > > at that point. You could then board the plane using a real BP as you
>>> > > do
>>> > > not need to present ID to get a real BP.
>>>
>>> > Sounds good in theory. Has it been done? Had you tried, you'll
>>> > probably be in Guantanamo Bay right now.
>>>
>>> Remember, you'd be talking about someone who is willing to take
>>> pretty high risks, so the simplicity of doing this would make it
>>> inviting.
>>> What Mr. Hunt is saying is correct, the ID check at the TSA
>>> screening point is a half measure at best. There is no check to
>>> see if the boarding pass is valid. There is no check to see if the
>>> ID is valid (oh, some cursory stuff, but nothing that one couldn't
>>> easily fake). There is no check to see if the name on the ID
>>> or BP is someone of which to be concerned. There is no check
>>> to see if the ID belongs to the person other than the photo
>>> comparison. The ID/BP check at the check point is relatively
>>> pointless, and is used mostly just to limit the numbers of people
>>> trying to pass through security.
>>>
>>> As I've said before, if you are waiting until a person shows up
>>> at the airport to try to decide if they are a "person of interest"
>>> you have waited way too long. And if you are hoping that the
>>> person checking ID's (who is rarely TSA) or the counter
>>> agent who is issueing BP's is going to be highly diligent,
>>> you're dreaming. The agent does what the computer tells
>>> them they have to do. The ID checkers are looking at
>>> exactly 3 things, none of which enhance security.- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>I agree the ID check at the TSA screening point is not strigent
>>enough. The person simply compares your BP with your photo ID and
>>sees if you are the person you say you are. So you'll have to
>>convince the airline couner agent with your fake ID to get your BP.
>>Either that or you produce a set of fake ID and a fake BP all by
>>yourself. Can it be done? In the movies probably.
>>
>>Hunt said you can check in online or do self check-in without going to
>>the counter if you do not have a bag to check. I have never done
>>that. But in order to do that you would have established your
>>credentials with the airlines. Can they be faked? Maybe in the
>>movies again.
>>
>
> Ask any high school kid who drinks where to get a decent fake I.D. Or
> use Google or ask your gardener or hotel maid..they may well have a
> good fake ID or know where to get them..they are very easy to find.
>
> With print-at-home boarding passes all you need is some skill with a
> scanner and photoshop or similar and that boarding pass your wife used
> last year will now get Mr. B. Bunny past security in a trifle.
>
> There are 50 states and a couple of territories plus D.C., all of
> which issue ID and liicenses...the $9/hour clown standing at the
> airport entrance is not going to have the highly-trained skills needed
> to be able to verify the ID you show is genuine and certainly doesn't
> have the computer links needed to determine if the person named on the
> license even exists...I think there's at least two states that still
> do not have computerized records and which do have strong privacy laws
> preventing outside access to that data....oh and every government
> agency issues identification cards also...quite valid for this silly
> check...do *you* know what the I.D. card issued by the Rural
> Electrification Agency looks like? How about the Bureau of Weights
> and Measures? Ever seen a Latverian passport? Would you know if one
> is real or fake..or even if Latveria exists right off the top of your
> head...people have succesfully used "Conch Republic" "diplomatic"
> passports to fool cops on a couple of occasions.
>
> Steal a credit card or buy access onlihe..buy the ticket in that
> name...print up a fake boarding pass but use a real one to get on the
> plane and the entire security system just became worthless.
>
> Weapons? Everything is a weapon. There is a martial arts system that
> usesd a tightly rolled up magazine as a baton and choking instrument.
>
> No one checks ball point pens, they assume there's metal in
> them...replace the soft metal ink cartridge with a tempered steel rod
> pointed at the end like a ball point and you've a dandy stabbing
> weapon. Obsidian won't trip a metal detector and you can make a blade
> with it sharp enough for surgery....there are surgeons using such
> blades today because they are sharper than steel and harder.
>
> Weapons? Ask anyone with SEAL or SAS training or other real fighting
> skills what can be used as a weapon...but be preapred as the list is
> endless.
>
> Willpower is what was used in 9/11, the toy knives they had were
> worthless, but they had the will to force people to do their bidding.
>
> If security screenings and thorough body searches worked, then a
> maximum security prison would be the safest place on the plaent. Yet
> oddly no one wants their teenage daughter to be left in one overnight.
>
> Jim P.
The bottom line is there hasn't been another airline hijacking like 9-11
since 9-11. So, however ludicrous the system may be (and I've watched the
idiots almost strip search my 95 year old father because he's in a
wheelchair), the TSA folks aren't that untrained. Dumb? Some of them are,
some aren't. But, like most civil servants everywhere, the way you succeed
in your job is "don't make waves." So don't expect them to deviate from the
"book." But don't think you aren't safer now than you were previously,
whether or not you are inconvenienced (and I just traveled yesterday with
the dreaded "SSSS" on my boarding pass....
Jeff
Re: are you really safer now
yaofeng wrote:
>>Yes, but my point was that even with the ID checkpoint before TSA
>>screening, you can present an ID that matches a boarding pass and it is
>>possible that either the ID or BP is fake since they are not validated
>>at that point. You could then board the plane using a real BP as you do
>>not need to present ID to get a real BP.
>
>
> Sounds good in theory. Has it been done? Had you tried, you'll
> probably be in Guantanamo Bay right now.
>
Why do you believe it would be a difficult thing to do?
yaofeng wrote:
>>Yes, but my point was that even with the ID checkpoint before TSA
>>screening, you can present an ID that matches a boarding pass and it is
>>possible that either the ID or BP is fake since they are not validated
>>at that point. You could then board the plane using a real BP as you do
>>not need to present ID to get a real BP.
>
>
> Sounds good in theory. Has it been done? Had you tried, you'll
> probably be in Guantanamo Bay right now.
>
Why do you believe it would be a difficult thing to do?
Re: are you really safer now
In message <85qdnSCr8M0sSmfYnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@comcast . com > Mike Hunt
<postmaster@localhost> wrote:
>yaofeng wrote:
>
>>>Yes, but my point was that even with the ID checkpoint before TSA
>>>screening, you can present an ID that matches a boarding pass and it is
>>>possible that either the ID or BP is fake since they are not validated
>>>at that point. You could then board the plane using a real BP as you do
>>>not need to present ID to get a real BP.
>>
>>
>> Sounds good in theory. Has it been done? Had you tried, you'll
>> probably be in Guantanamo Bay right now.
>
>Why do you believe it would be a difficult thing to do?
Risky, if you get caught, but not difficult.
--
Insert something clever here.
In message <85qdnSCr8M0sSmfYnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@comcast . com > Mike Hunt
<postmaster@localhost> wrote:
>yaofeng wrote:
>
>>>Yes, but my point was that even with the ID checkpoint before TSA
>>>screening, you can present an ID that matches a boarding pass and it is
>>>possible that either the ID or BP is fake since they are not validated
>>>at that point. You could then board the plane using a real BP as you do
>>>not need to present ID to get a real BP.
>>
>>
>> Sounds good in theory. Has it been done? Had you tried, you'll
>> probably be in Guantanamo Bay right now.
>
>Why do you believe it would be a difficult thing to do?
Risky, if you get caught, but not difficult.
--
Insert something clever here.
Re: are you really safer now
yaofeng wrote:
> I don't get it. Although most of my travel is out of the country, I
> did go to Indianapolis last week. Continental demanded to see my
> photo ID (my driver license) when I checked in. TSA also verified my
> boaring pass matches with my photo ID going through the security check
> point. Granted the CO ground crew did not check my boarding pass
> against my photo ID again at the gate. But they can if they want to
> and I am ready to show to them. Occasionally they also want you to
> check in again at the gate, after having gone throught the TSA
> security check point. How can a terrorist get by it, and with what
> kind of weapon?
Ignoring the 'weapon' bit, terrorists have valid ID ... just as
valid as yours or mine.
Heck, for many terrorists, the ID even comes with a CIA badge!
--
Craig
yaofeng wrote:
> I don't get it. Although most of my travel is out of the country, I
> did go to Indianapolis last week. Continental demanded to see my
> photo ID (my driver license) when I checked in. TSA also verified my
> boaring pass matches with my photo ID going through the security check
> point. Granted the CO ground crew did not check my boarding pass
> against my photo ID again at the gate. But they can if they want to
> and I am ready to show to them. Occasionally they also want you to
> check in again at the gate, after having gone throught the TSA
> security check point. How can a terrorist get by it, and with what
> kind of weapon?
Ignoring the 'weapon' bit, terrorists have valid ID ... just as
valid as yours or mine.
Heck, for many terrorists, the ID even comes with a CIA badge!
--
Craig
Re: are you really safer now
Per Mike Hunt:
> a known
>terrorist
How many of these guys are going tb "known".... It's not like suicide bombers
are repeat offenders......
Aside from the FBI's bungling and ignoring one of their own agents about the guy
taking flying lessons, does anybody know how many of the 911 people were
"known"?
--
PeteCresswell
Per Mike Hunt:
> a known
>terrorist
How many of these guys are going tb "known".... It's not like suicide bombers
are repeat offenders......
Aside from the FBI's bungling and ignoring one of their own agents about the guy
taking flying lessons, does anybody know how many of the 911 people were
"known"?
--
PeteCresswell
Re: are you really safer now
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Mike Hunt:
>
>>a known
>>terrorist
>
>
> How many of these guys are going tb "known".... It's not like suicide bombers
> are repeat offenders......
>
> Aside from the FBI's bungling and ignoring one of their own agents about the guy
> taking flying lessons, does anybody know how many of the 911 people were
> "known"?
Doesn't this make the ID check even more worthless?
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Mike Hunt:
>
>>a known
>>terrorist
>
>
> How many of these guys are going tb "known".... It's not like suicide bombers
> are repeat offenders......
>
> Aside from the FBI's bungling and ignoring one of their own agents about the guy
> taking flying lessons, does anybody know how many of the 911 people were
> "known"?
Doesn't this make the ID check even more worthless?
Re: are you really safer now
Per Mike Hunt:
>Doesn't this make the ID check even more worthless?
"Worthless" is a stronger word than I'd use... but I'm on board with at least
some of the spirit of that observation.
Personally, I don't think a 9/11 type of incident with conscious crew and
passengers can ever happen again and that efforts to prevent another one
executed in the same style are a waste of time and money.
Reason: 9/11 was predicated on both the system and the people thinking in terms
of perpetrators wanting to live instead of desiring to die. Now neither the
system nor the people in it are under that misapprehension.
The bad guys have had their shot and now everybody knows. It was what?... 45
minutes? between the twin towers and the people aboard the plane headed for
Washington catching on to what was really going down. Once they knew, it was
all over for the hijackers' mission.
One reason I wouldn't use "worthless" is that once Reid did his shoe thing it
seems more than just plausible that some other disturbed person could be
expected to try to emulate him. If somebody's a bureocrat in charge of airline
safety he's really got no choice but to start checking shoes.
But I wonder where that sort of reactive policy is headed. What happens once
we find the first bra bomber? What then? FedEx the bags and fly naked? What
about explosives hidden in the lower GI tract?
To continue this little rant on a tangent:
How many people die from the flu every year? 10,000? 20,000? Somewhere I
read that fully *half* of those deaths are preventable by making flu vaccine
available to everybody. But it isn't. Wasn't last year. Wasn't the year
before... and wasn't this year.... and probably won't be next year.
10 years of flu seasons... 5,000 or 10,000 fully-preventable deaths? Not only
that, but every expert I've heard/read so far agrees that it's not a matter of
*if* we are going to have another pandemic on the scale of the 1918 one, but
simply *when*.
Next to currently-preventable flu deaths and the millions upon millions of US
deaths tb expected in the next pandemic, a few hundred airline passengers now
and then seems to pale in comparison
Yet look where the big money is going.
--
PeteCresswell
Per Mike Hunt:
>Doesn't this make the ID check even more worthless?
"Worthless" is a stronger word than I'd use... but I'm on board with at least
some of the spirit of that observation.
Personally, I don't think a 9/11 type of incident with conscious crew and
passengers can ever happen again and that efforts to prevent another one
executed in the same style are a waste of time and money.
Reason: 9/11 was predicated on both the system and the people thinking in terms
of perpetrators wanting to live instead of desiring to die. Now neither the
system nor the people in it are under that misapprehension.
The bad guys have had their shot and now everybody knows. It was what?... 45
minutes? between the twin towers and the people aboard the plane headed for
Washington catching on to what was really going down. Once they knew, it was
all over for the hijackers' mission.
One reason I wouldn't use "worthless" is that once Reid did his shoe thing it
seems more than just plausible that some other disturbed person could be
expected to try to emulate him. If somebody's a bureocrat in charge of airline
safety he's really got no choice but to start checking shoes.
But I wonder where that sort of reactive policy is headed. What happens once
we find the first bra bomber? What then? FedEx the bags and fly naked? What
about explosives hidden in the lower GI tract?
To continue this little rant on a tangent:
How many people die from the flu every year? 10,000? 20,000? Somewhere I
read that fully *half* of those deaths are preventable by making flu vaccine
available to everybody. But it isn't. Wasn't last year. Wasn't the year
before... and wasn't this year.... and probably won't be next year.
10 years of flu seasons... 5,000 or 10,000 fully-preventable deaths? Not only
that, but every expert I've heard/read so far agrees that it's not a matter of
*if* we are going to have another pandemic on the scale of the 1918 one, but
simply *when*.
Next to currently-preventable flu deaths and the millions upon millions of US
deaths tb expected in the next pandemic, a few hundred airline passengers now
and then seems to pale in comparison
Yet look where the big money is going.
--
PeteCresswell
Re: are you really safer now
Per JA_MORAN:
>are you safer now that you are paying more for what is termed security...
Absolutely... because I no longer fly anywhere unless the trip is unavoidable.
--
PeteCresswell
Per JA_MORAN:
>are you safer now that you are paying more for what is termed security...
Absolutely... because I no longer fly anywhere unless the trip is unavoidable.
--
PeteCresswell
Next: PHL to London Aug 20, fare advice, tips?
Previous: FS: Australian Mobile Phone Prepay Sim Cards for Travellers
