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United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
Usenet2007@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG wrote:
>> Correct me (with cites) if I'm wrong... But my understanding of
> that situation was that the passengers DID incapacitate the
> two passenger-area terrorists, and DID get into to cockpit. And
> that the struggle in the cockpit was caught on the voice
> recorder. And then resulted in loss of control of the plane.
This was the original white house propaganda to make heroes out of the
passengers to get some bright light out of that terrible day.
But once families forced the FAA to release the secret cockpit transcripts,
reality set in: As the passengers started to try to break down the door, the
terrorists realised they weren't going to make it to Washington and just pushed
the yokes forwards to head the plane directly to the ground.
There was never a struggle in the cockpit. The passengers *allegedly* succeeded
in overtaking the cabin terrorists, but were stopped at the cockpit door.
Of course, now, with re-enforced doors, passengers stand no chance of overtaking
crazy people in the cockpit. ( remember Ethiopian Air ? Remember the Cypriot
airline where the sole person still awake was unable to enter cockpit due to the
"secure" doors until the engines ran out of fuel and there was no power for the
magnets that kept the door loocked).
Usenet2007@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG wrote:
>> Correct me (with cites) if I'm wrong... But my understanding of
> that situation was that the passengers DID incapacitate the
> two passenger-area terrorists, and DID get into to cockpit. And
> that the struggle in the cockpit was caught on the voice
> recorder. And then resulted in loss of control of the plane.
This was the original white house propaganda to make heroes out of the
passengers to get some bright light out of that terrible day.
But once families forced the FAA to release the secret cockpit transcripts,
reality set in: As the passengers started to try to break down the door, the
terrorists realised they weren't going to make it to Washington and just pushed
the yokes forwards to head the plane directly to the ground.
There was never a struggle in the cockpit. The passengers *allegedly* succeeded
in overtaking the cabin terrorists, but were stopped at the cockpit door.
Of course, now, with re-enforced doors, passengers stand no chance of overtaking
crazy people in the cockpit. ( remember Ethiopian Air ? Remember the Cypriot
airline where the sole person still awake was unable to enter cockpit due to the
"secure" doors until the engines ran out of fuel and there was no power for the
magnets that kept the door loocked).
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
In article <5700d$4611cd57$cef8887a$15280@TEKSAVVY . com >,
Nobody <nobody@nobody.org> wrote:
> Usenet2007@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG wrote:
> >> Correct me (with cites) if I'm wrong... But my understanding of
> > that situation was that the passengers DID incapacitate the
> > two passenger-area terrorists, and DID get into to cockpit. And
> > that the struggle in the cockpit was caught on the voice
> > recorder. And then resulted in loss of control of the plane.
>
>
> This was the original white house propaganda to make heroes out of the
> passengers to get some bright light out of that terrible day.
>
> But once families forced the FAA to release the secret cockpit transcripts,
> reality set in: As the passengers started to try to break down the door, the
> terrorists realised they weren't going to make it to Washington and just
> pushed
> the yokes forwards to head the plane directly to the ground.
>
> There was never a struggle in the cockpit. The passengers *allegedly*
> succeeded
> in overtaking the cabin terrorists, but were stopped at the cockpit door.
>
> Of course, now, with re-enforced doors, passengers stand no chance of
> overtaking crazy people in the cockpit.
The flip-side to that is the terrorists probably won't get in there to
begin with.
In article <5700d$4611cd57$cef8887a$15280@TEKSAVVY . com >,
Nobody <nobody@nobody.org> wrote:
> Usenet2007@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG wrote:
> >> Correct me (with cites) if I'm wrong... But my understanding of
> > that situation was that the passengers DID incapacitate the
> > two passenger-area terrorists, and DID get into to cockpit. And
> > that the struggle in the cockpit was caught on the voice
> > recorder. And then resulted in loss of control of the plane.
>
>
> This was the original white house propaganda to make heroes out of the
> passengers to get some bright light out of that terrible day.
>
> But once families forced the FAA to release the secret cockpit transcripts,
> reality set in: As the passengers started to try to break down the door, the
> terrorists realised they weren't going to make it to Washington and just
> pushed
> the yokes forwards to head the plane directly to the ground.
>
> There was never a struggle in the cockpit. The passengers *allegedly*
> succeeded
> in overtaking the cabin terrorists, but were stopped at the cockpit door.
>
> Of course, now, with re-enforced doors, passengers stand no chance of
> overtaking crazy people in the cockpit.
The flip-side to that is the terrorists probably won't get in there to
begin with.
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
Usenet2007@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG wrote:
>
> Correct me (with cites) if I'm wrong... But my understanding of
> that situation was that the passengers DID incapacitate the
> two passenger-area terrorists, and DID get into to cockpit. And
> that the struggle in the cockpit was caught on the voice
> recorder.
With guns, the passengers could have prevented the terrorists from
getting into the cockpit. If they were already in the cockpit, a gun
would have eliminated any time lost in struggling.
Usenet2007@THE-DOMAIN-IN.SIG wrote:
>
> Correct me (with cites) if I'm wrong... But my understanding of
> that situation was that the passengers DID incapacitate the
> two passenger-area terrorists, and DID get into to cockpit. And
> that the struggle in the cockpit was caught on the voice
> recorder.
With guns, the passengers could have prevented the terrorists from
getting into the cockpit. If they were already in the cockpit, a gun
would have eliminated any time lost in struggling.
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in
news:i5j1131g8v6deefbj0atibm6bhpjoheh3q@4ax . com :
> Mike Hunt writes:
>
>> Why would guns not have helped? The terrorists were armed with razor
>> blades.
>
> If they are holding the razor blades to a hostage's throat, a gun
> won't help much. If they've already killed the pilots, a gun can only
> kill the only other people with any flying ability. There are many
> scenarios. Guns are not the solution to every problem.
That part is true.
> I daresay, however, that El Al-style profiling and interrogation
> (particularly the latter) would have stopped these terrorists at the
> gate. While El Al methods are labor-intensive in many cases and thus
> impractical for larger airlines (El Al has only a handful of planes
> and flights), the quick and "deep" interrogations could be used by any
> airline.
Not in today's politically correct society.
RD
Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in
news:i5j1131g8v6deefbj0atibm6bhpjoheh3q@4ax . com :
> Mike Hunt writes:
>
>> Why would guns not have helped? The terrorists were armed with razor
>> blades.
>
> If they are holding the razor blades to a hostage's throat, a gun
> won't help much. If they've already killed the pilots, a gun can only
> kill the only other people with any flying ability. There are many
> scenarios. Guns are not the solution to every problem.
That part is true.
> I daresay, however, that El Al-style profiling and interrogation
> (particularly the latter) would have stopped these terrorists at the
> gate. While El Al methods are labor-intensive in many cases and thus
> impractical for larger airlines (El Al has only a handful of planes
> and flights), the quick and "deep" interrogations could be used by any
> airline.
Not in today's politically correct society.
RD
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
RD (The Sandman) wrote:
> Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in
> news:i5j1131g8v6deefbj0atibm6bhpjoheh3q@4ax . com :
>>I daresay, however, that El Al-style profiling and interrogation
>>(particularly the latter) would have stopped these terrorists at the
>>gate. While El Al methods are labor-intensive in many cases and thus
>>impractical for larger airlines (El Al has only a handful of planes
>>and flights), the quick and "deep" interrogations could be used by any
>>airline.
>
>
> Not in today's politically correct society.
It's not even a PC issue. It would take too long.
El Al doesn't limit questioning only to people that look Arab.
RD (The Sandman) wrote:
> Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in
> news:i5j1131g8v6deefbj0atibm6bhpjoheh3q@4ax . com :
>>I daresay, however, that El Al-style profiling and interrogation
>>(particularly the latter) would have stopped these terrorists at the
>>gate. While El Al methods are labor-intensive in many cases and thus
>>impractical for larger airlines (El Al has only a handful of planes
>>and flights), the quick and "deep" interrogations could be used by any
>>airline.
>
>
> Not in today's politically correct society.
It's not even a PC issue. It would take too long.
El Al doesn't limit questioning only to people that look Arab.
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
Mike Hunt writes:
> It's not even a PC issue. It would take too long.
How long is too long if it prevents people from dying?
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Mike Hunt writes:
> It's not even a PC issue. It would take too long.
How long is too long if it prevents people from dying?
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
Mxsmanic wrote:
> Mike Hunt writes:
>
>
>>It's not even a PC issue. It would take too long.
>
>
> How long is too long if it prevents people from dying?
>
If the speed limit was moved to 30, and enforced on the US highways, how
many lives would be saved? If smoking was banned, how many lives would
be saved?
How many people have died from terrorist hijackings on US planes in the
past 5 1/2 years? In the entire history of US air travel, how many
people have died from terrorist hijackings?
Mxsmanic wrote:
> Mike Hunt writes:
>
>
>>It's not even a PC issue. It would take too long.
>
>
> How long is too long if it prevents people from dying?
>
If the speed limit was moved to 30, and enforced on the US highways, how
many lives would be saved? If smoking was banned, how many lives would
be saved?
How many people have died from terrorist hijackings on US planes in the
past 5 1/2 years? In the entire history of US air travel, how many
people have died from terrorist hijackings?
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
Mike Hunt <postmaster@localhost> wrote in
news:tImdnZpagJBotozbnZ2dnUVZ_tfinZ2d@comcast . com :
> RD (The Sandman) wrote:
>
>> Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in
>> news:i5j1131g8v6deefbj0atibm6bhpjoheh3q@4ax . com :
>
>>>I daresay, however, that El Al-style profiling and interrogation
>>>(particularly the latter) would have stopped these terrorists at the
>>>gate. While El Al methods are labor-intensive in many cases and thus
>>>impractical for larger airlines (El Al has only a handful of planes
>>>and flights), the quick and "deep" interrogations could be used by any
>>>airline.
>>
>>
>> Not in today's politically correct society.
>
> It's not even a PC issue. It would take too long.
> El Al doesn't limit questioning only to people that look Arab.
El AL profiles by things we in the US cannot. EL AL understands that no
70 year old woman has ever hijacked an aircraft or blown one up. They
concentrate their efforts on those who fit a profile that would not fly
(lousy pun) in the US.
RD
Mike Hunt <postmaster@localhost> wrote in
news:tImdnZpagJBotozbnZ2dnUVZ_tfinZ2d@comcast . com :
> RD (The Sandman) wrote:
>
>> Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in
>> news:i5j1131g8v6deefbj0atibm6bhpjoheh3q@4ax . com :
>
>>>I daresay, however, that El Al-style profiling and interrogation
>>>(particularly the latter) would have stopped these terrorists at the
>>>gate. While El Al methods are labor-intensive in many cases and thus
>>>impractical for larger airlines (El Al has only a handful of planes
>>>and flights), the quick and "deep" interrogations could be used by any
>>>airline.
>>
>>
>> Not in today's politically correct society.
>
> It's not even a PC issue. It would take too long.
> El Al doesn't limit questioning only to people that look Arab.
El AL profiles by things we in the US cannot. EL AL understands that no
70 year old woman has ever hijacked an aircraft or blown one up. They
concentrate their efforts on those who fit a profile that would not fly
(lousy pun) in the US.
RD
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
RD (The Sandman) wrote:
> El AL profiles by things we in the US cannot. EL AL understands that no
> 70 year old woman has ever hijacked an aircraft or blown one up. They
> concentrate their efforts on those who fit a profile that would not fly
> (lousy pun) in the US.
But... they still question the 70 year old woman. If they felt old
people and children were not a danger, why do they kill them?
In VietNam, do you suppose any Americans were killed because they felt
old women and children were safe?
RD (The Sandman) wrote:
> El AL profiles by things we in the US cannot. EL AL understands that no
> 70 year old woman has ever hijacked an aircraft or blown one up. They
> concentrate their efforts on those who fit a profile that would not fly
> (lousy pun) in the US.
But... they still question the 70 year old woman. If they felt old
people and children were not a danger, why do they kill them?
In VietNam, do you suppose any Americans were killed because they felt
old women and children were safe?
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
Mike Hunt <postmaster@localhost> wrote in
news:ZaSdnVwkYPeGA4zbnZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d@comcast . com :
> RD (The Sandman) wrote:
>
>> El AL profiles by things we in the US cannot. EL AL understands that
>> no 70 year old woman has ever hijacked an aircraft or blown one up.
>> They concentrate their efforts on those who fit a profile that would
>> not fly (lousy pun) in the US.
>
> But... they still question the 70 year old woman.
No where near as often or as extensively as those who fit the profiles.
We can't do that here. Too many folks scream if you don't treat that 70
year old grannie the same as a 30 year old middle eastern male wearing a
turban.
> If they felt old
> people and children were not a danger, why do they kill them?
When do they kill them? Is this some new way to keep them from boarding
an ElAl airliner?
> In VietNam, do you suppose any Americans were killed because they felt
> old women and children were safe?
Do you really know how Israelis profile?
RD
Mike Hunt <postmaster@localhost> wrote in
news:ZaSdnVwkYPeGA4zbnZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d@comcast . com :
> RD (The Sandman) wrote:
>
>> El AL profiles by things we in the US cannot. EL AL understands that
>> no 70 year old woman has ever hijacked an aircraft or blown one up.
>> They concentrate their efforts on those who fit a profile that would
>> not fly (lousy pun) in the US.
>
> But... they still question the 70 year old woman.
No where near as often or as extensively as those who fit the profiles.
We can't do that here. Too many folks scream if you don't treat that 70
year old grannie the same as a 30 year old middle eastern male wearing a
turban.
> If they felt old
> people and children were not a danger, why do they kill them?
When do they kill them? Is this some new way to keep them from boarding
an ElAl airliner?
> In VietNam, do you suppose any Americans were killed because they felt
> old women and children were safe?
Do you really know how Israelis profile?
RD
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
RD (The Sandman) wrote:
> No where near as often or as extensively as those who fit the profiles.
> We can't do that here. Too many folks scream if you don't treat that 70
> year old grannie the same as a 30 year old middle eastern male wearing a
> turban.
How many terrorists in the 9/11 incidents wore turbans?
>
>
>>If they felt old
>>people and children were not a danger, why do they kill them?
>
>
> When do they kill them? Is this some new way to keep them from boarding
> an ElAl airliner?
Israel has a habit of bulldozing houses containing people.
> Do you really know how Israelis profile?
Not really. I am sure you don't know how the Israelis or TSA profile.
You only know what you can see.
RD (The Sandman) wrote:
> No where near as often or as extensively as those who fit the profiles.
> We can't do that here. Too many folks scream if you don't treat that 70
> year old grannie the same as a 30 year old middle eastern male wearing a
> turban.
How many terrorists in the 9/11 incidents wore turbans?
>
>
>>If they felt old
>>people and children were not a danger, why do they kill them?
>
>
> When do they kill them? Is this some new way to keep them from boarding
> an ElAl airliner?
Israel has a habit of bulldozing houses containing people.
> Do you really know how Israelis profile?
Not really. I am sure you don't know how the Israelis or TSA profile.
You only know what you can see.
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
Mike Hunt <postmaster@localhost> wrote in
news:s6WdnSja8fnMYI_bnZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@comcast . com :
> RD (The Sandman) wrote:
>
>> No where near as often or as extensively as those who fit the
>> profiles. We can't do that here. Too many folks scream if you don't
>> treat that 70 year old grannie the same as a 30 year old middle
>> eastern male wearing a turban.
>
> How many terrorists in the 9/11 incidents wore turbans?
Did you understand what I said? If you did, you also understood what I
meant.
>>>If they felt old
>>>people and children were not a danger, why do they kill them?
>>
>>
>> When do they kill them? Is this some new way to keep them from
>> boarding an ElAl airliner?
>
> Israel has a habit of bulldozing houses containing people.
And other countries have a habit of blowing them up. Do you, somehow,
feel that is less abhorrent?
RD
Mike Hunt <postmaster@localhost> wrote in
news:s6WdnSja8fnMYI_bnZ2dnUVZ_u-unZ2d@comcast . com :
> RD (The Sandman) wrote:
>
>> No where near as often or as extensively as those who fit the
>> profiles. We can't do that here. Too many folks scream if you don't
>> treat that 70 year old grannie the same as a 30 year old middle
>> eastern male wearing a turban.
>
> How many terrorists in the 9/11 incidents wore turbans?
Did you understand what I said? If you did, you also understood what I
meant.
>>>If they felt old
>>>people and children were not a danger, why do they kill them?
>>
>>
>> When do they kill them? Is this some new way to keep them from
>> boarding an ElAl airliner?
>
> Israel has a habit of bulldozing houses containing people.
And other countries have a habit of blowing them up. Do you, somehow,
feel that is less abhorrent?
RD
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
"RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast . net > writes:
> Not in today's politically correct society.
I think safety should take priority over political correctness, but I seem to
hold a minority view. In any case, "security" measures that do nothing to
improve security are a total waste of time, apart from being infringements on
civil liberties.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
"RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast . net > writes:
> Not in today's politically correct society.
I think safety should take priority over political correctness, but I seem to
hold a minority view. In any case, "security" measures that do nothing to
improve security are a total waste of time, apart from being infringements on
civil liberties.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in
news:ugh213dgi60enab3fjq72j4qps2p51okrm@4ax . com :
> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast . net > writes:
>
>> Not in today's politically correct society.
>
> I think safety should take priority over political correctness, but I
> seem to hold a minority view.
As do I, but in the US it doesn't appear to.
> In any case, "security" measures that
> do nothing to improve security are a total waste of time, apart from
> being infringements on civil liberties.
That would be true, however the measurement of that accomplishment can be
tricky.
RD
Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in
news:ugh213dgi60enab3fjq72j4qps2p51okrm@4ax . com :
> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast . net > writes:
>
>> Not in today's politically correct society.
>
> I think safety should take priority over political correctness, but I
> seem to hold a minority view.
As do I, but in the US it doesn't appear to.
> In any case, "security" measures that
> do nothing to improve security are a total waste of time, apart from
> being infringements on civil liberties.
That would be true, however the measurement of that accomplishment can be
tricky.
RD
Re: United flight attendant arrested for carrying gun on flight
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:i5j1131g8v6deefbj0atibm6bhpjoheh3q@4ax . com ...
> Mike Hunt writes:
>
>> Why would guns not have helped? The terrorists were armed with razor
>> blades.
>
> If they are holding the razor blades to a hostage's throat, a gun won't
> help
> much. If they've already killed the pilots, a gun can only kill the only
> other people with any flying ability. There are many scenarios. Guns are
> not
> the solution to every problem.
>
> I daresay, however, that El Al-style profiling and interrogation
> (particularly
> the latter) would have stopped these terrorists at the gate. While El Al
> methods are labor-intensive in many cases and thus impractical for larger
> airlines (El Al has only a handful of planes and flights), the quick and
> "deep" interrogations could be used by any airline.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Bullshit, you can only slice so fast...
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:i5j1131g8v6deefbj0atibm6bhpjoheh3q@4ax . com ...
> Mike Hunt writes:
>
>> Why would guns not have helped? The terrorists were armed with razor
>> blades.
>
> If they are holding the razor blades to a hostage's throat, a gun won't
> help
> much. If they've already killed the pilots, a gun can only kill the only
> other people with any flying ability. There are many scenarios. Guns are
> not
> the solution to every problem.
>
> I daresay, however, that El Al-style profiling and interrogation
> (particularly
> the latter) would have stopped these terrorists at the gate. While El Al
> methods are labor-intensive in many cases and thus impractical for larger
> airlines (El Al has only a handful of planes and flights), the quick and
> "deep" interrogations could be used by any airline.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Bullshit, you can only slice so fast...
