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Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
sechumlib <sechumlib@liberal . net > wrote in
news:461a3474$0$19456$4c368faf@roadrunner . com :
> On 2007-04-08 22:22:41 -0400, Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail . com > said:
>
>> sechumlib writes:
>>
>>> When I was confronted by dodos like you.
>>
>> True courtesy is the courtesy you show towards people you don't like.
>> Anyone can be polite to someone who is likable. And I'm not sure
>> why unintelligent people would be less deserving of courtesy than
>> intelligent people.
>
> I realize it's convenient for you to demand courtesy toward YOU, even
> when you don't demonstrate significant intellect.
>
You only have to be polite to people with a certain IQ now? That's some
loophole. Thanks for the clarification.
sechumlib <sechumlib@liberal . net > wrote in
news:461a3474$0$19456$4c368faf@roadrunner . com :
> On 2007-04-08 22:22:41 -0400, Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail . com > said:
>
>> sechumlib writes:
>>
>>> When I was confronted by dodos like you.
>>
>> True courtesy is the courtesy you show towards people you don't like.
>> Anyone can be polite to someone who is likable. And I'm not sure
>> why unintelligent people would be less deserving of courtesy than
>> intelligent people.
>
> I realize it's convenient for you to demand courtesy toward YOU, even
> when you don't demonstrate significant intellect.
>
You only have to be polite to people with a certain IQ now? That's some
loophole. Thanks for the clarification.
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
On Apr 8, 3:32 pm, Mxsmanic <mxsma...@gmail . com > wrote:
> David Ames writes:
> > A person who pays for a first-class ticket expects convenience and
> > comfort, not vulgar crap. Nothing "politically incorrect" about
> > complaining of it. And someone who was a military pilot was most
> > likely "an officer and a gentleman," as the standard expression goes.
> > He should know how to keep it down in front of civilians.
>
> I don't see why a pilot has any obligation to be nice to me; that's not his
> job. What worries me in this case is not a lack of courtesy, but his highly
> emotional behavior and the effect it may have on his judgement and competence
> while he is flying. If he cannot stay calm while on the job, he needs to find
> a different job.
>
To the extent that I agree (which is mostly), you are responding to
points made by others and which were not cited here. My disagreement
is on the point whether he has to be "nice" to you because it's not
part of his job. The pilot's job is to command his craft. But it is
also his job to represent the airline that employs him. The guys in
the front office, or the big tower, or wherever, don't want him to
upset the company's relationship with paying customers. You can't run
a business without customers.
BTW, if the pilot was not given a sobriety test (which others have
stated or surmised to be the case), then it perhaps means the company
has reached a final decision that doesn't need a sobriety test for
justiification. This might not have been his first offense, or the
company mighr have public information on him from elsewhere, or he may
be a new employee who has just shown his unsuitability.
David Ames
On Apr 8, 3:32 pm, Mxsmanic <mxsma...@gmail . com > wrote:
> David Ames writes:
> > A person who pays for a first-class ticket expects convenience and
> > comfort, not vulgar crap. Nothing "politically incorrect" about
> > complaining of it. And someone who was a military pilot was most
> > likely "an officer and a gentleman," as the standard expression goes.
> > He should know how to keep it down in front of civilians.
>
> I don't see why a pilot has any obligation to be nice to me; that's not his
> job. What worries me in this case is not a lack of courtesy, but his highly
> emotional behavior and the effect it may have on his judgement and competence
> while he is flying. If he cannot stay calm while on the job, he needs to find
> a different job.
>
To the extent that I agree (which is mostly), you are responding to
points made by others and which were not cited here. My disagreement
is on the point whether he has to be "nice" to you because it's not
part of his job. The pilot's job is to command his craft. But it is
also his job to represent the airline that employs him. The guys in
the front office, or the big tower, or wherever, don't want him to
upset the company's relationship with paying customers. You can't run
a business without customers.
BTW, if the pilot was not given a sobriety test (which others have
stated or surmised to be the case), then it perhaps means the company
has reached a final decision that doesn't need a sobriety test for
justiification. This might not have been his first offense, or the
company mighr have public information on him from elsewhere, or he may
be a new employee who has just shown his unsuitability.
David Ames
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
David Ames writes:
> To the extent that I agree (which is mostly), you are responding to
> points made by others and which were not cited here. My disagreement
> is on the point whether he has to be "nice" to you because it's not
> part of his job. The pilot's job is to command his craft. But it is
> also his job to represent the airline that employs him. The guys in
> the front office, or the big tower, or wherever, don't want him to
> upset the company's relationship with paying customers. You can't run
> a business without customers.
Pilots have so little contact with airline customers that I don't consider
this a factor. How often do you talk to the pilot on a commercial airline
flight? How often do you even _see_ the pilots? The paranoia of recent years
has only accentuated this, isolating pilots even further on the flight deck.
As such, the question of their attitude towards passengers is moot.
The situation is different for flight attendants, who have more direct contact
with customers than any other employees of the company. A company might
therefore want them to be nice in order to maintain the image of the company.
But their first job is still safety.
> BTW, if the pilot was not given a sobriety test (which others have
> stated or surmised to be the case), then it perhaps means the company
> has reached a final decision that doesn't need a sobriety test for
> justiification. This might not have been his first offense, or the
> company mighr have public information on him from elsewhere, or he may
> be a new employee who has just shown his unsuitability.
True.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
David Ames writes:
> To the extent that I agree (which is mostly), you are responding to
> points made by others and which were not cited here. My disagreement
> is on the point whether he has to be "nice" to you because it's not
> part of his job. The pilot's job is to command his craft. But it is
> also his job to represent the airline that employs him. The guys in
> the front office, or the big tower, or wherever, don't want him to
> upset the company's relationship with paying customers. You can't run
> a business without customers.
Pilots have so little contact with airline customers that I don't consider
this a factor. How often do you talk to the pilot on a commercial airline
flight? How often do you even _see_ the pilots? The paranoia of recent years
has only accentuated this, isolating pilots even further on the flight deck.
As such, the question of their attitude towards passengers is moot.
The situation is different for flight attendants, who have more direct contact
with customers than any other employees of the company. A company might
therefore want them to be nice in order to maintain the image of the company.
But their first job is still safety.
> BTW, if the pilot was not given a sobriety test (which others have
> stated or surmised to be the case), then it perhaps means the company
> has reached a final decision that doesn't need a sobriety test for
> justiification. This might not have been his first offense, or the
> company mighr have public information on him from elsewhere, or he may
> be a new employee who has just shown his unsuitability.
True.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:plkk135ia7rq9oci1ei7i8nd4plg2cpgvi@4ax . com ...
>
> Pilots have so little contact with airline customers that I don't consider
> this a factor. How often do you talk to the pilot on a commercial airline
> flight? How often do you even _see_ the pilots? The paranoia of recent
> years
> has only accentuated this, isolating pilots even further on the flight
> deck.
> As such, the question of their attitude towards passengers is moot.
>
If you ever learn to interface correctly with a group of individuals you
will come to realize how in correct your statement is,,,,again.
The captain is indeed the captain of the ship. If he is smart, and most all
of them are, he will realize the value of teamwork and how easily he can
effect the emotional state of all his crew members, and set the tone for the
entire crew on each flight. If anyone need to set an example for all the
members of a flight crew, he is the man.
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:plkk135ia7rq9oci1ei7i8nd4plg2cpgvi@4ax . com ...
>
> Pilots have so little contact with airline customers that I don't consider
> this a factor. How often do you talk to the pilot on a commercial airline
> flight? How often do you even _see_ the pilots? The paranoia of recent
> years
> has only accentuated this, isolating pilots even further on the flight
> deck.
> As such, the question of their attitude towards passengers is moot.
>
If you ever learn to interface correctly with a group of individuals you
will come to realize how in correct your statement is,,,,again.
The captain is indeed the captain of the ship. If he is smart, and most all
of them are, he will realize the value of teamwork and how easily he can
effect the emotional state of all his crew members, and set the tone for the
entire crew on each flight. If anyone need to set an example for all the
members of a flight crew, he is the man.
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
Maxwell writes:
> The captain is indeed the captain of the ship. If he is smart, and most all
> of them are ...
Pilots are only slightly higher in average IQ than the general population.
> ... he will realize the value of teamwork and how easily he can
> effect the emotional state of all his crew members, and set the tone for the
> entire crew on each flight. If anyone need to set an example for all the
> members of a flight crew, he is the man.
Crew yes, but the discussion concerned passengers.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Maxwell writes:
> The captain is indeed the captain of the ship. If he is smart, and most all
> of them are ...
Pilots are only slightly higher in average IQ than the general population.
> ... he will realize the value of teamwork and how easily he can
> effect the emotional state of all his crew members, and set the tone for the
> entire crew on each flight. If anyone need to set an example for all the
> members of a flight crew, he is the man.
Crew yes, but the discussion concerned passengers.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:lqok131r4gmu32jol27hi9gelr95lv6svq@4ax . com ...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> The captain is indeed the captain of the ship. If he is smart, and most
>> all
>> of them are ...
>
> Pilots are only slightly higher in average IQ than the general population.
>
>> ... he will realize the value of teamwork and how easily he can
>> effect the emotional state of all his crew members, and set the tone for
>> the
>> entire crew on each flight. If anyone need to set an example for all the
>> members of a flight crew, he is the man.
>
> Crew yes, but the discussion concerned passengers.
>
Totally irrelevant in this branch of the thread...as usual.
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:lqok131r4gmu32jol27hi9gelr95lv6svq@4ax . com ...
> Maxwell writes:
>
>> The captain is indeed the captain of the ship. If he is smart, and most
>> all
>> of them are ...
>
> Pilots are only slightly higher in average IQ than the general population.
>
>> ... he will realize the value of teamwork and how easily he can
>> effect the emotional state of all his crew members, and set the tone for
>> the
>> entire crew on each flight. If anyone need to set an example for all the
>> members of a flight crew, he is the man.
>
> Crew yes, but the discussion concerned passengers.
>
Totally irrelevant in this branch of the thread...as usual.
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
Per possumrex@yahoo . com :
>Being angry
>would not have diminished his safety awareness.
It sure kicks the brains out of mine when I'm in that state.
And awareness is only part of the situation. Ability to react fast enough and
perform the right actions are part of it too. Both, in my experience,
diminished when I'm in a state of anger.
--
PeteCresswell
Per possumrex@yahoo . com :
>Being angry
>would not have diminished his safety awareness.
It sure kicks the brains out of mine when I'm in that state.
And awareness is only part of the situation. Ability to react fast enough and
perform the right actions are part of it too. Both, in my experience,
diminished when I'm in a state of anger.
--
PeteCresswell
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:4vdi13lrj8rt5tpadgb2l5jrarrh4tj62c@4ax . com ...
> Per possumrex@yahoo . com :
> >Being angry
> >would not have diminished his safety awareness.
>
> It sure kicks the brains out of mine when I'm in that state.
>
> And awareness is only part of the situation. Ability to react fast
enough and
> perform the right actions are part of it too. Both, in my experience,
> diminished when I'm in a state of anger.
> --
> PeteCresswell
True enough for me as well.
However, an interesting question occurs to me. Why are we all taking some
passenger's story as Gospel, and then extrapolating additional inferences
from it?
Peter
Just a little food for thought.
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:4vdi13lrj8rt5tpadgb2l5jrarrh4tj62c@4ax . com ...
> Per possumrex@yahoo . com :
> >Being angry
> >would not have diminished his safety awareness.
>
> It sure kicks the brains out of mine when I'm in that state.
>
> And awareness is only part of the situation. Ability to react fast
enough and
> perform the right actions are part of it too. Both, in my experience,
> diminished when I'm in a state of anger.
> --
> PeteCresswell
True enough for me as well.
However, an interesting question occurs to me. Why are we all taking some
passenger's story as Gospel, and then extrapolating additional inferences
from it?
Peter
Just a little food for thought.
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
> However, an interesting question occurs to me. Why are we all taking some
> passenger's story as Gospel, and then extrapolating additional inferences
> from it?
>
If you can go back to the beginning of this thread (use
groups.google . com ), you will see that the discussion began with a news
dispatch. Sources were mentioned.
David Ames
> However, an interesting question occurs to me. Why are we all taking some
> passenger's story as Gospel, and then extrapolating additional inferences
> from it?
>
If you can go back to the beginning of this thread (use
groups.google . com ), you will see that the discussion began with a news
dispatch. Sources were mentioned.
David Ames
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
> > However, an interesting question occurs to me. Why are we all taking
some
> > passenger's story as Gospel, and then extrapolating additional
inferences
> > from it?
> >
>
> If you can go back to the beginning of this thread (use
> groups.google . com ), you will see that the discussion began with a news
> dispatch. Sources were mentioned.
>
> David Ames
>
I did, before posting.
My problem is not that the flight was flight was cancelled, or that the
pilot was removed, when a loss of confidence was established; but with the
presumptuousness of this debate.
Peter
> > However, an interesting question occurs to me. Why are we all taking
some
> > passenger's story as Gospel, and then extrapolating additional
inferences
> > from it?
> >
>
> If you can go back to the beginning of this thread (use
> groups.google . com ), you will see that the discussion began with a news
> dispatch. Sources were mentioned.
>
> David Ames
>
I did, before posting.
My problem is not that the flight was flight was cancelled, or that the
pilot was removed, when a loss of confidence was established; but with the
presumptuousness of this debate.
Peter
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
On Apr 8, 8:31 am, possum...@yahoo . com wrote:
> Just because somebody is swearing and cursing does not mean they are
> an emotional basket case, it just means they are angry. What, were
> they worried he was going to have road rage on the runway?
>
> Nearly all pilots are ex-military and they curse a lot in the
> military, this is normal. Then when he was already angry some
> politically correct passenger tried to admonish him, what a crock, he
> is the captain of the plane, not some crummy hired hand. Being angry
> would not have diminished his safety awareness.
Hmm... I'd argue that most pilots aren't ex-military, although I am.
And, while I remember cursing at a balky Wright 3350 in the AC-119K I
was flying, and later cursing at the copilot for puking all over the
instrument panel on final in a KC-135 landing at Hickam (in a nice
cursing sort of way, it wasn't really his fault), I would never
display that sort of behavior in front of passengers.
I'd say his behavior points to a much deeper problem, and I'd say
pulling him from the flight was justified.
Speaking of cursing, this brings back memories of flying a bunch of
Army Rangers to Elmendorf in our KC-135 (yes, we did more than
refueling). We had to lock up their weapons (God knows why; I thought
it was nice knowing a bunch of those guys were back there protecting
us from, well, stuff) and when we landed in Anchorage the Rangers
asked us to unlock the cabinet so they could "secure their weapons".
I didn't have the key and yelled at the Boom Operator, "Hey Carl,
these guys want their guns. You got the key?"
One of the Rangers, a Senior Master Sergeant, gently grabbed me by the
sleeve of my flight suit and said "Sir, those are not our guns. Would
you like me to show you my gun?"
I got the point.
Customer service. Doesn't matter if you're a captain on a 757 or the
service manager at McDonalds. It means all the difference in the
world.
--Walt
Bozeman
On Apr 8, 8:31 am, possum...@yahoo . com wrote:
> Just because somebody is swearing and cursing does not mean they are
> an emotional basket case, it just means they are angry. What, were
> they worried he was going to have road rage on the runway?
>
> Nearly all pilots are ex-military and they curse a lot in the
> military, this is normal. Then when he was already angry some
> politically correct passenger tried to admonish him, what a crock, he
> is the captain of the plane, not some crummy hired hand. Being angry
> would not have diminished his safety awareness.
Hmm... I'd argue that most pilots aren't ex-military, although I am.
And, while I remember cursing at a balky Wright 3350 in the AC-119K I
was flying, and later cursing at the copilot for puking all over the
instrument panel on final in a KC-135 landing at Hickam (in a nice
cursing sort of way, it wasn't really his fault), I would never
display that sort of behavior in front of passengers.
I'd say his behavior points to a much deeper problem, and I'd say
pulling him from the flight was justified.
Speaking of cursing, this brings back memories of flying a bunch of
Army Rangers to Elmendorf in our KC-135 (yes, we did more than
refueling). We had to lock up their weapons (God knows why; I thought
it was nice knowing a bunch of those guys were back there protecting
us from, well, stuff) and when we landed in Anchorage the Rangers
asked us to unlock the cabinet so they could "secure their weapons".
I didn't have the key and yelled at the Boom Operator, "Hey Carl,
these guys want their guns. You got the key?"
One of the Rangers, a Senior Master Sergeant, gently grabbed me by the
sleeve of my flight suit and said "Sir, those are not our guns. Would
you like me to show you my gun?"
I got the point.
Customer service. Doesn't matter if you're a captain on a 757 or the
service manager at McDonalds. It means all the difference in the
world.
--Walt
Bozeman
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
Walt writes:
> Speaking of cursing, this brings back memories of flying a bunch of
> Army Rangers to Elmendorf in our KC-135 (yes, we did more than
> refueling). We had to lock up their weapons (God knows why; I thought
> it was nice knowing a bunch of those guys were back there protecting
> us from, well, stuff) and when we landed in Anchorage the Rangers
> asked us to unlock the cabinet so they could "secure their weapons".
>
> I didn't have the key and yelled at the Boom Operator, "Hey Carl,
> these guys want their guns. You got the key?"
>
> One of the Rangers, a Senior Master Sergeant, gently grabbed me by the
> sleeve of my flight suit and said "Sir, those are not our guns. Would
> you like me to show you my gun?"
>
> I got the point.
What was the point?
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Walt writes:
> Speaking of cursing, this brings back memories of flying a bunch of
> Army Rangers to Elmendorf in our KC-135 (yes, we did more than
> refueling). We had to lock up their weapons (God knows why; I thought
> it was nice knowing a bunch of those guys were back there protecting
> us from, well, stuff) and when we landed in Anchorage the Rangers
> asked us to unlock the cabinet so they could "secure their weapons".
>
> I didn't have the key and yelled at the Boom Operator, "Hey Carl,
> these guys want their guns. You got the key?"
>
> One of the Rangers, a Senior Master Sergeant, gently grabbed me by the
> sleeve of my flight suit and said "Sir, those are not our guns. Would
> you like me to show you my gun?"
>
> I got the point.
What was the point?
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote ....
>
> What was the point?
>
"This is my rifle.
This is my gun.
One is for fighting.
The other for fun."
....and while most airline pilots once were veterans of military service,
those days have passed, with today's pilots in most cases non-vets. As for
"cussing", I don't recall it being any more prevalent in the military,
especially among pilots, than in a dozen civilian occupations.
Other than the legendary terminal "Oh, Shit!", conversations tend to be
pretty well mannered.
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@gmail . com > wrote ....
>
> What was the point?
>
"This is my rifle.
This is my gun.
One is for fighting.
The other for fun."
....and while most airline pilots once were veterans of military service,
those days have passed, with today's pilots in most cases non-vets. As for
"cussing", I don't recall it being any more prevalent in the military,
especially among pilots, than in a dozen civilian occupations.
Other than the legendary terminal "Oh, Shit!", conversations tend to be
pretty well mannered.
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
TMOliver writes:
> "This is my rifle.
> This is my gun.
> One is for fighting.
> The other for fun."
Thanks. I looked this up after reading your post above, and after seeing the
extremely unflattering and perverse connotations it has, I understand why the
reference meant nothing to me, and I'm glad it's that way.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
TMOliver writes:
> "This is my rifle.
> This is my gun.
> One is for fighting.
> The other for fun."
Thanks. I looked this up after reading your post above, and after seeing the
extremely unflattering and perverse connotations it has, I understand why the
reference meant nothing to me, and I'm glad it's that way.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Re: Obscene pilot forces Northwest to cancel flight
On 2007-04-09 16:18:20 -0400, "TMOliver" <tmoliverjrFIX@hot.rr . com FIX> said:
> "This is my rifle.
> This is my gun.
> One is for fighting.
> The other for fun."
THANK YOU! I had problems coming up with the exact quote from Uris's book.
On 2007-04-09 16:18:20 -0400, "TMOliver" <tmoliverjrFIX@hot.rr . com FIX> said:
> "This is my rifle.
> This is my gun.
> One is for fighting.
> The other for fun."
THANK YOU! I had problems coming up with the exact quote from Uris's book.
