Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

I finally got serious about looking for a second Honda
Civic, c. 1989-1997. A few observations:

-- A friend of mine convinced me Carfax was worth $35 for 30
days, unlimited checks. For the four cars I checked, it
revealed: (a)
Odometer tampering with two, with the advertised mileage
being over 100k lower than the Carfax title reported
mileage; (b) lying about the number of owners for a third;
it had had four owners in 18 months. Many reports attest to
how Carfax is not perfect, but so far it sure saved me some
trouble.

-- Most persistent major mechanical problems have been poor
air conditioning and suspect CV joints. I watch especially
for blown head gaskets. So far for around half a dozen cars
I have actually examined: no residue on the oil cap; oil in
the reservoir; smell from exhaust pipe; white puff from
exhaust pipe.

-- craigslist.org has been my best resource. (Thanks to
regular poster JT for sending me there!) Ebay,
autotrader,com and dealers have turned up little. Dealers do
not like to deal in cars that do not involve financing, so
low price beaters generally are not advertised for sale by
them. Though oddly, on my Carfax checks, there's always an
advertisement by dealers for a 199- Civic, complete with
VIN. Then I call the dealer, and the car is not there. Maybe
when a car is traded in, carfax automatically retrieves it
and its filter puts the ad up? But in fact most of these
cars are sold at auction? Craigslist people have all been
good about meeting at the designated time and test driving
(though I almost always have a friend with me). Craigs list
sellers where I am have been mostly but not entirely honest,
at least insofar as the carfax checks indicate.

-- used car dealers are a hoot! Unless you know what to look
for on these older Hondas, do not buy from a used dealer. A
fine looking Honda Civic DX came up on Craig's list at a mom
n' pop used car dealership. I went to see it. Great body,
engine compartment sparkled, fluids looked clean and topped
off; but no muffler; no radio; check engine light was on;
windshield was cracked, miles advertised were 124k and
carfax said it was in fact over 271k miles a year ago. I am
considering making a very low offer (after telling the
dealership about the flawed title tampered odometer) just
for the shell.

Further advice?

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

"Elle" <honda.lioness@spamnocox,net > wrote in message news:iSQ7k.1145$oY2.648@newsfe21.lga...
> I finally got serious about looking for a second Honda
> Civic, c. 1989-1997. A few observations:

What kind of money are we talking about here?
In other words, how much do you want to spend
and where are you located? Maybe I will have
a car for you.... :-)

> -- A friend of mine convinced me Carfax was worth $35 for 30
> days, unlimited checks. For the four cars I checked, it
> revealed: (a)
> Odometer tampering with two, with the advertised mileage
> being over 100k lower than the Carfax title reported
> mileage; (b) lying about the number of owners for a third;
> it had had four owners in 18 months. Many reports attest to
> how Carfax is not perfect, but so far it sure saved me some
> trouble.

With the car that old I would say actual millage is not
as important as the current technical condition of the car.

> -- craigslist.org has been my best resource. (Thanks to
> regular poster JT for sending me there!) Ebay,
> autotrader,com and dealers have turned up little. Dealers do
> not like to deal in cars that do not involve financing, so
> low price beaters generally are not advertised for sale by
> them. Though oddly, on my Carfax checks, there's always an
> advertisement by dealers for a 199- Civic, complete with
> VIN. Then I call the dealer, and the car is not there. Maybe
> when a car is traded in, carfax automatically retrieves it
> and its filter puts the ad up? But in fact most of these
> cars are sold at auction?

I am not surprised new car dealers do not keep these cars.
The car you are looking for probably is worth much less than
a 1000 and takes the same amount of space on the dealer parking
lot as tha 20k one. Also, on average it will look horrible
compared to new cars, so new car dealer selling not old used
cars does not want to clutter his parking lot with trash like
top down rusted 1989 honda civic.

> -- used car dealers are a hoot! Unless you know what to look
> for on these older Hondas, do not buy from a used dealer. A
> fine looking Honda Civic DX came up on Craig's list at a mom
> n' pop used car dealership. I went to see it. Great body,
> engine compartment sparkled, fluids looked clean and topped
> off; but no muffler; no radio; check engine light was on;
> windshield was cracked, miles advertised were 124k and
> carfax said it was in fact over 271k miles a year ago. I am
> considering making a very low offer (after telling the
> dealership about the flawed title tampered odometer) just
> for the shell.

What do you consider a "low offer" for such a car?
Junkyard is probably paying between 100-200 dolars
for a car which can be driven to the yard... Slightly
less if it has to be towed. If you see a car on
some dealer's parking lot than it means the owner
hopes to get much more for his trashy car than he
could get from the junkyard.

> Further advice?

Look at your local junk yard. Sometimes they have
cars these old in quite good condition and you
might score good find this way...
Of course it is junk yard, so the car will not
look good, guaranteed.

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

"Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox,com > wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@spamnocox,net > wrote
>> I finally got serious about looking for a second Honda
>> Civic, c. 1989-1997. A few observations:
>
> What kind of money are we talking about here?
> In other words, how much do you want to spend
> and where are you located? Maybe I will have
> a car for you.... :-)

Write me where you are located. :-)

>> -- A friend of mine convinced me Carfax was worth $35 for
>> 30 days, unlimited checks. For the four cars I checked,
>> it revealed: (a)
>> Odometer tampering with two, with the advertised mileage
>> being over 100k lower than the Carfax title reported
>> mileage; (b) lying about the number of owners for a
>> third; it had had four owners in 18 months. Many reports
>> attest to how Carfax is not perfect, but so far it sure
>> saved me some trouble.
>
> With the car that old I would say actual millage is not
> as important as the current technical condition of the
> car.

A 90s Civic engine with 100k-125k miles on to me likely has
at least 75k miles more left on the engine.

A 90s Civic engine with 200k and up miles on it to me may go
at any time. If I knew the owner and the maintenance record,
I might feel a little differently.

There's a huge difference in risk. This is all we can talk
about here, ya know, probabilities.


>> -- craigslist.org has been my best resource. (Thanks to
>> regular poster JT for sending me there!) Ebay,
>> autotrader,com and dealers have turned up little. Dealers
>> do not like to deal in cars that do not involve
>> financing, so low price beaters generally are not
>> advertised for sale by them. Though oddly, on my Carfax
>> checks, there's always an advertisement by dealers for a
>> 199- Civic, complete with VIN. Then I call the dealer,
>> and the car is not there. Maybe when a car is traded in,
>> carfax automatically retrieves it and its filter puts the
>> ad up? But in fact most of these cars are sold at
>> auction?
>
> I am not surprised new car dealers do not keep these cars.
> The car you are looking for probably is worth much less
> than
> a 1000 and takes the same amount of space on the dealer
> parking
> lot as tha 20k one.

Kelly blue book puts them at $1200-2500, depending on
condition, for private party. Retail is usually more.

The dealers do not keep them because financing generally is
not done with such a low cost.

> Also, on average it will look horrible
> compared to new cars, so new car dealer selling not old
> used
> cars does not want to clutter his parking lot with trash
> like top down rusted 1989 honda civic.

I am sure you are right. :-)

>> -- used car dealers are a hoot! Unless you know what to
>> look for on these older Hondas, do not buy from a used
>> dealer. A fine looking Honda Civic DX came up on Craig's
>> list at a mom n' pop used car dealership. I went to see
>> it. Great body, engine compartment sparkled, fluids
>> looked clean and topped off; but no muffler; no radio;
>> check engine light was on; windshield was cracked, miles
>> advertised were 124k and carfax said it was in fact over
>> 271k miles a year ago. I am considering making a very low
>> offer (after telling the dealership about the flawed
>> title tampered odometer) just for the shell.
>
> What do you consider a "low offer" for such a car?
> Junkyard is probably paying between 100-200 dolars
> for a car which can be driven to the yard... Slightly
> less if it has to be towed. If you see a car on some
> dealer's parking lot than it means the owner hopes to get
> much more for his trashy car than he
> could get from the junkyard.

Well sure. Fortunately Craig's List and Ebay often have
shells for sale, so I know the asking price for a good shell
is around $500 to $1000.

>> Further advice?
>
> Look at your local junk yard. Sometimes they have
> cars these old in quite good condition and you might score
> good find this way...
> Of course it is junk yard, so the car will not
> look good, guaranteed.

Indeed there is one local junkyard that buys running cars
and sells them. I started checking it regularly a few weeks
ago. Many of the cars there do not look too bad and could be
fixed up nicely.

I saw such a humdinger a few hours ago. 90 Civic. Lifted the
hood, and the first thing I always check is the coolant
reservoir. Well huh, the cap is already unfastened. It's
overfilled and bubbles are coming out the tube right before
my very eyes. First blown head gasket yada I have seen. I
ended the inspection there saying I would not risk it.

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

Elle wrote:
> "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox,com > wrote
>> "Elle" <honda.lioness@spamnocox,net > wrote
>>> I finally got serious about looking for a second Honda
>>> Civic, c. 1989-1997. A few observations:
>> What kind of money are we talking about here?
>> In other words, how much do you want to spend
>> and where are you located? Maybe I will have
>> a car for you.... :-)
>
> Write me where you are located. :-)
>
>>> -- A friend of mine convinced me Carfax was worth $35 for
>>> 30 days, unlimited checks. For the four cars I checked,
>>> it revealed: (a)
>>> Odometer tampering with two, with the advertised mileage
>>> being over 100k lower than the Carfax title reported
>>> mileage; (b) lying about the number of owners for a
>>> third; it had had four owners in 18 months. Many reports
>>> attest to how Carfax is not perfect, but so far it sure
>>> saved me some trouble.
>> With the car that old I would say actual millage is not
>> as important as the current technical condition of the
>> car.
>
> A 90s Civic engine with 100k-125k miles on to me likely has
> at least 75k miles more left on the engine.
>
> A 90s Civic engine with 200k and up miles on it to me may go
> at any time. If I knew the owner and the maintenance record,
> I might feel a little differently.
>
> There's a huge difference in risk. This is all we can talk
> about here, ya know, probabilities.

i think Pszemol is dead right on this one. there comes a point where
mileage is irrelevant and you're buying the car for the platform, not
any one single component. and with replacement jdm
engines/transmissions being so cheap and plentiful, the condition of the
original is not very important - unlike the quality of the interior
which is pretty much vital.


>
>
>>> -- craigslist.org has been my best resource. (Thanks to
>>> regular poster JT for sending me there!) Ebay,
>>> autotrader,com and dealers have turned up little. Dealers
>>> do not like to deal in cars that do not involve
>>> financing, so low price beaters generally are not
>>> advertised for sale by them. Though oddly, on my Carfax
>>> checks, there's always an advertisement by dealers for a
>>> 199- Civic, complete with VIN. Then I call the dealer,
>>> and the car is not there. Maybe when a car is traded in,
>>> carfax automatically retrieves it and its filter puts the
>>> ad up? But in fact most of these cars are sold at
>>> auction?
>> I am not surprised new car dealers do not keep these cars.
>> The car you are looking for probably is worth much less
>> than
>> a 1000 and takes the same amount of space on the dealer
>> parking
>> lot as tha 20k one.
>
> Kelly blue book puts them at $1200-2500, depending on
> condition, for private party. Retail is usually more.

i've seen up to $3k on craigslist for stock 88-91 civics here in the bay
area. that's if you can find one. the local ricers go nuts for them.
even harder to find now that gas prices are high.


>
> The dealers do not keep them because financing generally is
> not done with such a low cost.
>
>> Also, on average it will look horrible
>> compared to new cars, so new car dealer selling not old
>> used
>> cars does not want to clutter his parking lot with trash
>> like top down rusted 1989 honda civic.
>
> I am sure you are right. :-)
>
>>> -- used car dealers are a hoot! Unless you know what to
>>> look for on these older Hondas, do not buy from a used
>>> dealer. A fine looking Honda Civic DX came up on Craig's
>>> list at a mom n' pop used car dealership. I went to see
>>> it. Great body, engine compartment sparkled, fluids
>>> looked clean and topped off; but no muffler; no radio;
>>> check engine light was on; windshield was cracked, miles
>>> advertised were 124k and carfax said it was in fact over
>>> 271k miles a year ago. I am considering making a very low
>>> offer (after telling the dealership about the flawed
>>> title tampered odometer) just for the shell.
>> What do you consider a "low offer" for such a car?
>> Junkyard is probably paying between 100-200 dolars
>> for a car which can be driven to the yard... Slightly
>> less if it has to be towed. If you see a car on some
>> dealer's parking lot than it means the owner hopes to get
>> much more for his trashy car than he
>> could get from the junkyard.
>
> Well sure. Fortunately Craig's List and Ebay often have
> shells for sale, so I know the asking price for a good shell
> is around $500 to $1000.
>
>>> Further advice?
>> Look at your local junk yard. Sometimes they have
>> cars these old in quite good condition and you might score
>> good find this way...
>> Of course it is junk yard, so the car will not
>> look good, guaranteed.
>
> Indeed there is one local junkyard that buys running cars
> and sells them. I started checking it regularly a few weeks
> ago. Many of the cars there do not look too bad and could be
> fixed up nicely.
>
> I saw such a humdinger a few hours ago. 90 Civic. Lifted the
> hood, and the first thing I always check is the coolant
> reservoir. Well huh, the cap is already unfastened. It's
> overfilled and bubbles are coming out the tube right before
> my very eyes. First blown head gasket yada I have seen. I
> ended the inspection there saying I would not risk it.

buy it, but pay a price that reflects the problem. engines are fixable.
trashed interiors and bent bodies are a giant pita.

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example,net > wrote in message news:qaOdnR15lNvs6_3VnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@speakeasy,net ...
> i've seen up to $3k on craigslist for stock 88-91 civics here in the bay
> area. that's if you can find one. the local ricers go nuts for them.
> even harder to find now that gas prices are high.


If this is true that this car is in demand beween ricing
enthusiasts than it will be very hard to compete them
for somebody who is looking for an economy car...

I can hardly imagine what good could come from
buying such an old car anyway. Yes, you could probably
find a cheap one but it will not be in good condition!
You spend a lot of time looking for it, driving around
for inspections spending money and time to find one.
Then, when you find one it will not be over...
Is your main goal not to have montly payments? You
*will* be paying montly (or weekly) payments anyway
but to the local parts store instead to the bank and live
in constant fear that the car will crap out on you in the
middle of the trip spoiling a day and causing you some
towing costs..

Does not seem to be such a bargain to me,
but you know, I am very spoiled ;-)

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

"Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox,com > wrote
> I can hardly imagine what good could come from
> buying such an old car anyway. Yes, you could probably
> find a cheap one but it will not be in good condition!
> You spend a lot of time looking for it, driving around
> for inspections spending money and time to find one.

Folks who know nothing about automotive engine systems
should not buy such old cars.

Those who know these cars and have the time to work on them
stand to save a lot of money.

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

Waiving the right to remain silent, "Elle" <honda.lioness@spamnocox,net >
said:

> "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox,com > wrote
>> I can hardly imagine what good could come from
>> buying such an old car anyway. Yes, you could probably
>> find a cheap one but it will not be in good condition!
>> You spend a lot of time looking for it, driving around for inspections
>> spending money and time to find one.
>
> Folks who know nothing about automotive engine systems
> should not buy such old cars.
>
> Those who know these cars and have the time to work on them
> stand to save a lot of money.

It's the kind of car you get for your young son, and let him fix it up for
the fun and experience. It's not a serious daily-driver for anyone.

--
Larry J. - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail

"A lack of common sense is now considered a disability,
with all the privileges that this entails."

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

"Larry in AZ" <usenet2@DELETE.THISljvideo,com >
Elle wrote
>> Folks who know nothing about automotive engine systems
>> should not buy such old cars.
>>
>> Those who know these cars and have the time to work on
>> them
>> stand to save a lot of money.
>
> It's the kind of car you get for your young son, and let
> him fix it up for
> the fun and experience. It's not a serious daily-driver
> for anyone.

For anyone who has taken their c. 1990 Honda beyond 200k
miles, a second Honda with 120k miles original engine or
163k miles body and 70k mile engine can result in a daily
driver.

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

"Elle" <honda.lioness@spamnocox,net > wrote in message news:_Aq8k.2171$%q.968@newsfe24.lga...
> "Larry in AZ" <usenet2@DELETE.THISljvideo,com >
> Elle wrote
>>> Folks who know nothing about automotive engine systems
>>> should not buy such old cars.
>>>
>>> Those who know these cars and have the time to work on
>>> them
>>> stand to save a lot of money.
>>
>> It's the kind of car you get for your young son, and let
>> him fix it up for
>> the fun and experience. It's not a serious daily-driver
>> for anyone.
>
> For anyone who has taken their c. 1990 Honda beyond 200k
> miles, a second Honda with 120k miles original engine or
> 163k miles body and 70k mile engine can result in a daily
> driver.

I got my 1995 toyota camry when it had 47k miles in 1998.
Since then I hapily drive it still today, with 246k miles.
No head gasket problems or any other major things to worry.
But I KNOW THIS CAR! Every day of its history since May'98.
It does not mean I would seek a camry that old from a stranger.

No matter how much time you spend inspecting the car at the
seller location there will always be something that can
surprise you after the purchase and cost you in a long run...

Look yourself at your original post - how many cars you
have already seen and rejected? How much time and gas
you spent driving there to look for them? How long more
you are going to look for this crazy-cool'89 civic deal?

Is it really worth so much trouble? :-)
Maybe is not rational anymore but just emotional? ;-)

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

Pszemol wrote:
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@spamnocox,net > wrote in message
> news:_Aq8k.2171$%q.968@newsfe24.lga...
>> "Larry in AZ" <usenet2@DELETE.THISljvideo,com >
>> Elle wrote
>>>> Folks who know nothing about automotive engine systems
>>>> should not buy such old cars.
>>>>
>>>> Those who know these cars and have the time to work on them
>>>> stand to save a lot of money.
>>>
>>> It's the kind of car you get for your young son, and let him fix it
>>> up for
>>> the fun and experience. It's not a serious daily-driver for anyone.
>>
>> For anyone who has taken their c. 1990 Honda beyond 200k miles, a
>> second Honda with 120k miles original engine or 163k miles body and
>> 70k mile engine can result in a daily driver.
>
> I got my 1995 toyota camry when it had 47k miles in 1998.
> Since then I hapily drive it still today, with 246k miles.
> No head gasket problems or any other major things to worry.
> But I KNOW THIS CAR! Every day of its history since May'98.
> It does not mean I would seek a camry that old from a stranger.
>
> No matter how much time you spend inspecting the car at the
> seller location there will always be something that can
> surprise you after the purchase and cost you in a long run...
>
> Look yourself at your original post - how many cars you
> have already seen and rejected? How much time and gas
> you spent driving there to look for them? How long more
> you are going to look for this crazy-cool'89 civic deal?
>
> Is it really worth so much trouble? :-)
> Maybe is not rational anymore but just emotional? ;-)

but that's exactly the situation with your rejection of the older
vehicle! it can be completely rational to purchase it if you know what
you're doing and the price is right!

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

"Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox,com > wrote
> I got my 1995 toyota camry when it had 47k miles in 1998.
> Since then I hapily drive it still today, with 246k miles.
> No head gasket problems or any other major things to
> worry.
> But I KNOW THIS CAR!

Agreed, not knowing the history is one of the drawbacks of
buying a secondhand (or thirdhand or more) car. Carfax
helps a lot. I reject a car with too many owners in too
short a time, for example, of which there are many out
there, at least on Craigs List where I am.

I am seeing consistently that the little c. 1990 Civic
hatchbacks feel somewhat too much like a death trap. The DXs
and base model hatchbacks do not have power steering, plus
the suspension bushings generally seem worn (though I could
fix this), so the road feel is generally lousy. Then too
they are small and cramped. Great mileage, but I like
feeling a little more like I am not the smallest, most
vulnerable vehicle on the road.

Only one of the circa 1990 Civics I have seen had what I
would call very good a/c. It also had a great body and 166k
mileage, with only two owners. I made an offer on it, but as
JBeam observes, offering more than KBB was not quite enough,
and it got snatched at a significantly higher price before I
could counter. I was testing the waters. Now I am seeing
good, newer c. 1995 Civics sell within two hours on Craigs
List.

Having driven a few 95-97 Civics now, I am leaning towards
spending more and making this second car the one that will
replace my 91 Civic in a few years. Meanwhile my friend will
use the newer one for commuting in summer, then use my 91
Civic (no a/c) the rest of the year.

Like you were saying when comparing cars, the newer ones
have a much much better feel. I am not in a rush. Which
means I end up saving as much as a few thousand dollars.

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

Elle wrote:
> "Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox,com > wrote
>> I got my 1995 toyota camry when it had 47k miles in 1998.
>> Since then I hapily drive it still today, with 246k miles.
>> No head gasket problems or any other major things to
>> worry.
>> But I KNOW THIS CAR!
>
> Agreed, not knowing the history is one of the drawbacks of
> buying a secondhand (or thirdhand or more) car. Carfax
> helps a lot. I reject a car with too many owners in too
> short a time, for example, of which there are many out
> there, at least on Craigs List where I am.
>
> I am seeing consistently that the little c. 1990 Civic
> hatchbacks feel somewhat too much like a death trap.

what an odd statement! they're only 27cm shorter than your 4-door
sedan, and they both have an identical wheelbase. the only reason they
could feel worse is if something is wrong.

> The DXs
> and base model hatchbacks do not have power steering,

the automatics have power steering.


> plus
> the suspension bushings generally seem worn

that may be a valid point. i forget that i replaced the bushings and
the shocks on both my current cars as soon as i got them, so they both
drive like new.


> (though I could
> fix this), so the road feel is generally lousy. Then too
> they are small and cramped.

how are they different to your sedan? and i can tell you for fact,
there is more interior room in my 89 than there in in the subsequent
generations. get a tape measure out.


> Great mileage, but I like
> feeling a little more like I am not the smallest, most
> vulnerable vehicle on the road.
>
> Only one of the circa 1990 Civics I have seen had what I
> would call very good a/c. It also had a great body and 166k
> mileage, with only two owners. I made an offer on it, but as
> JBeam observes, offering more than KBB was not quite enough,
> and it got snatched at a significantly higher price before I
> could counter. I was testing the waters. Now I am seeing
> good, newer c. 1995 Civics sell within two hours on Craigs
> List.
>
> Having driven a few 95-97 Civics now, I am leaning towards
> spending more and making this second car the one that will
> replace my 91 Civic in a few years. Meanwhile my friend will
> use the newer one for commuting in summer, then use my 91
> Civic (no a/c) the rest of the year.
>
> Like you were saying when comparing cars, the newer ones
> have a much much better feel. I am not in a rush. Which
> means I end up saving as much as a few thousand dollars.
>
>

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

Archival point: The 1990 Civic hatchback compared to a 91
Civic LX Sedan (my car) is lighter by around 150 lbs, and is
10-inches shorter. Ten inches is not small potatoes to me.
Can't find the height from the ground for the hatchback, but
it has seemed lower on the three or so hatches I have looked
at. Interior dimensions on the hatchback are mostly a bit
smaller than the sedan. I think the lack of power steering
on the hatch means one feels the road more. It is not as
responsive in feel.

I have also driven a few used sedans besides my own and
consistently felt much better in them compared to the
hatches.

No more, no less, just my opinion.

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

Elle wrote:
> Archival point: The 1990 Civic hatchback compared to a 91
> Civic LX Sedan (my car) is lighter by around 150 lbs, and is
> 10-inches shorter. Ten inches is not small potatoes to me.
> Can't find the height from the ground for the hatchback, but
> it has seemed lower on the three or so hatches I have looked
> at. Interior dimensions on the hatchback are mostly a bit
> smaller than the sedan. I think the lack of power steering
> on the hatch means one feels the road more. It is not as
> responsive in feel.
>
> I have also driven a few used sedans besides my own and
> consistently felt much better in them compared to the
> hatches.
>
> No more, no less, just my opinion.

those 88-91 hatches must have had something wrong if they actually rode
lower. i know my hatch gets some heavy moving duties simply because i
can fit a lot of stuff in it, but the honda ride height spec for both is
the same at 150mm. wheel base for both is 2500mm, wheel track for both
is 1456mm.

all the other differences are simply cosmetic, i.e. length of the sedan
is 4232mm vs 3964mm for the hatch. width is 1674mm vs 1665 for the
hatch, and roof height is 1360mm vs 1333mm for the hatch. dx manual
sedan weighs 2147lbs vs 2088lbs for the hatch.

i think if you're feeling a difference it's simply the fact that you've
done the rear bushings on your car, and the others you've tried haven't
been so lucky. it does make a big change to the way these cars handle.

Re: Carfax, Buying Used, & Craigslist.org

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example,net > wrote
> i think if you're feeling a difference it's simply the
> fact that you've done the rear bushings on your car, and
> the others you've tried haven't been so lucky. it does
> make a big change to the way these cars handle.

I agree this is quite possible. (I know you think it's fact;
I am just expressing my own opinion.) For the record, on my
91 Civic, every single front lower arm bushing and all rear
arm bushings have been changed out. The front has almost new
OEM coils, too.

I am considering a 95 Civic DX with only 120k miles (two
owners, with much documentation of dealer maintenance) on it
that has a really good feel. It has no power steering but
the bushings may be better than the old hatches I have
tried. So my PS theory could be off. Also, I won't rule out
the ball joints (and more suspension) being older and less
well maintained on the hatchbacks I tried. IOW, overall worn
suspension, for one as you and I seem to agree, may be what
I am feeling.

Maybe the old hatches are also molested more than the
sedans. The younger crowd seems to prefer the hatches. The
sedans look like an old lady's car. The hatches, more like a
kid's. Not to deride those driving hatches and paying a
fraction of what the average driver pays for gas, though.
:-)