A/T skipping 1st gear

My '94 Accord LX never had a transmission problem before but today,
after a short stop, I had a hard time getting the car rolling. It was as
if you tried to start a manual transmission car in the 3rd gear. So the
1st and possibly even the 2nd gear was skipped. Also, the A/T speed
indicator in the instrument panel was flashing the #4 gear position.
According to the official Honda Service Manual this blinking means that
the TCM senses an abnormality in the input or output systems and the
exact nature of the problem could be diagnosed only by reading a special
code from the service check connector. Unfortunately I don't have that
code reading tool, so it looks like Monday I'm going to have to take the
car to a shop that hopefully won't tell me to have the whole A/T
replaced for more than the car is worth. In the meantime I wonder if
anybody experienced similar situation and could fill me in how it was
resolved.

DB

On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:00:28 -0700, "Dabbler" <db@freemail.invalid>
wrote:

>My '94 Accord LX never had a transmission problem before but today,
>after a short stop, I had a hard time getting the car rolling. It was as
>if you tried to start a manual transmission car in the 3rd gear. So the
>1st and possibly even the 2nd gear was skipped. Also, the A/T speed
>indicator in the instrument panel was flashing the #4 gear position.
>According to the official Honda Service Manual this blinking means that
>the TCM senses an abnormality in the input or output systems and the
>exact nature of the problem could be diagnosed only by reading a special
>code from the service check connector. Unfortunately I don't have that
>code reading tool, so it looks like Monday I'm going to have to take the
>car to a shop that hopefully won't tell me to have the whole A/T
>replaced for more than the car is worth. In the meantime I wonder if
>anybody experienced similar situation and could fill me in how it was
>resolved.
>
>DB

On my '92, I had a similar thing happen. The trans goes into a
'cripple' mode which is third gear. It'll get you off the road and
possibly to a garage.

My problem was that the transmission computer was gone....or rather
the electrolytic capacitors were leaking (internally). I replaced the
caps which, as I understand, is very similar to what's done during a
'rebuild' of the circuit board. And everything was back to normal.

YMMV. Good luck.

"J.L.Hemmer" <noone@nowhere . com > wrote:

> On my '92, I had a similar thing happen. The trans goes into a
> 'cripple' mode which is third gear. It'll get you off the road and
> possibly to a garage.
>
> My problem was that the transmission computer was gone....or rather
> the electrolytic capacitors were leaking (internally).

I guess this is what the Service Manual calls TCM (Transmission Control
Module?)

> I replaced the caps which, as I understand, is very similar to what's
> done during a
> 'rebuild' of the circuit board.

I don't even know where to look for it and it is probably something I
would not even want to try, anyway. Way over my head!

> And everything was back to normal.

Good for you.
I did not mention earlier that after that short stop, I also had to run
the starter longer than usual, and that never happened before, either.
It usually just starts right away. I did not mention it because I didn't
think it was related to the A/T problem, but now I keep wondering.

> YMMV. Good luck.

Thanks,
DB

On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 21:17:27 -0700, "Dabbler" <db@freemail.invalid>
wrote:

>
>"J.L.Hemmer" <noone@nowhere . com > wrote:
>
>> On my '92, I had a similar thing happen. The trans goes into a
>> 'cripple' mode which is third gear. It'll get you off the road and
>> possibly to a garage.
>>
>> My problem was that the transmission computer was gone....or rather
>> the electrolytic capacitors were leaking (internally).
>
>I guess this is what the Service Manual calls TCM (Transmission Control
>Module?)

Yes, I believe you are correct.

>> I replaced the caps which, as I understand, is very similar to what's
>> done during a
>> 'rebuild' of the circuit board.
>
>I don't even know where to look for it and it is probably something I
>would not even want to try, anyway. Way over my head!

Mine was located on the passenger side, under the footrest(an angled
plate from the floor toward the firewall) ...pull carpeting and, if
yours is in the same area, you will see the modlule(and the
engine/fuel control module{computer} is next to it.{I'm referencing my
car}.
>
>> And everything was back to normal.
>
>Good for you.

I was lucky, that's all.

>I did not mention earlier that after that short stop, I also had to run
>the starter longer than usual, and that never happened before, either.
>It usually just starts right away. I did not mention it because I didn't
>think it was related to the A/T problem, but now I keep wondering.
>
>> YMMV. Good luck.
>
>Thanks,
>DB

"J.L.Hemmer" <noone@nowhere . com > wrote:
> Mine was located on the passenger side, under the footrest(an angled
> plate from the floor toward the firewall) ...pull carpeting and, if
> yours is in the same area, you will see the modlule(and the
> engine/fuel control module{computer} is next to it.{I'm referencing my
> car}.

Yes, I also found its location in the Honda Service Manual. I missed it
earlier. Both the TCM and the ECM are in the same general area you
described. However, to my surprise, the problem seemed to have
disappeared when this morning I turned on the engine and backed out from
the garage & then moved it back. Also the #4 gear indicator is not
flashing anymore. I am going to take a short drive to see if the problem
reappears but even if it does not, I will still be wondering if I should
take it to a Honda shop tomorrow to check things out. But how can they
check it out if the problem does not manifests itself to the service
guys? I just might be stuck with a big bill without anything having been
fixed. I wonder if it was some kind of temporary short at the A/T gear
position switch, next to the shift lever on the driver side. From what I
could see by peeking through some holes, that switch does have a bunch
of bare wire connectors. The Service manual does indicate that as one of
several possible reasons for the kind of symptoms I was experiencing.

DB

Dabbler wrote:
> ...the problem seemed to have
> disappeared when this morning I turned on the engine...
> ...the #4 gear indicator is not flashing anymore.

Maybe you have an intermitttent connection or a failing sensor. Could it be
heat-related?

> ...how can they check it out if the problem does not manifests itself to
> the service guys?

The engine and transmission computers retain their error codes until reset.
--
Chuck

"Charles" <electrochuckREMOVE@XXXatt . net > wrote:
> Maybe you have an intermitttent connection or a failing sensor. Could
> it be heat-related?

Could be. I drove early evening about 4 miles to a restaurant and then
back and everything seemed to be all right. However, it was a cool
evening and the engine probably did not even heat up to optimal temp.
>
> The engine and transmission computers retain their error codes until
> reset.

Good point. I didn't even think of it. So that in itself makes it worth
to visit a shop tomorrow.

Thanks for the comments,
DB

"Charles" <electrochuckREMOVE@XXXatt . net > wrote:
> The engine and transmission computers retain their error codes until
> reset.

Well, at last I visited the nearby Honda dealer's shop. The error code
that was stored was "8" and the cause was said to be shift control
solenoid B failure. Because the solenoid works now, my earlier problem
was deemed to be an indication that the solenoid started to fail and
needed to be replaced. Unfortunately they had to place it on order, so
I'll be in limbo till it arrives.

Checking the Service Manual, I thought the symptoms were more like what
is indicated by code "5", indicating a short or failing A/T gear
position switch because that would skip gear one. Symptom for code "8"
is that the A/T is stuck in the 1st or 4th gear. But hey, maybe it was
stuck in 4th, though I was able to move the shift lever to all forward
gears and before that to "R" as well. Perhaps the problem started right
after I got out of reverse.

The Service Manual includes quite an involved troubleshooting procedure
for code "8" to determine whether the cause was indeed the solenoid or
some short in the wires connected to the solenoid. I just hope the
mechanic took the time to go through that procedure instead of taking
the easy (and expensive) way out by prescribing a new solenoid.
Otherwise I might end up with the same problem later on, plus an
unnecessary expense.

DB

Dabbler wrote:
> The error code
> that was stored was "8" and the cause was said to be shift control
> solenoid B failure. Because the solenoid works now, my earlier problem
> was deemed to be an indication that the solenoid started to fail and
> needed to be replaced.

I had that same problem on my '88 Prelude. When hot the resistance of
solenoids A and B both went to nearly 1,000 ohms. Normally they're at 24
ohms. I noticed the problem first as a "flare" in the shifting between
second and third. After a while the solenoids exhibited high resistance even
when cold and the computer started to complain.

> The Service Manual includes quite an involved troubleshooting
> procedure for code "8" to determine whether the cause was indeed the
> solenoid or some short in the wires connected to the solenoid. I just
> hope the mechanic took the time to go through that procedure instead
> of taking the easy (and expensive) way out by prescribing a new
> solenoid.

Not likely and not profitable for the shop. Be sure you get the "bad"
computer module if they replace it. Better yet measure the resistance
yourself before giving them the car again. How many hundreds of dollars is a
new computer? How much will you spend if you just have a bad connector or
completely different problem? Some symptoms overlap and you may be seeing a
false positive.

> Otherwise I might end up with the same problem later on,
> plus an unnecessary expense.

I had a bad connector at the computer the last time I saw the #8 error code.
I substituted a known good computer. (A rare $5 find on eBay.) Problem
remained. Cleaned the connector at the transmission. Problem remained. Fixed
a poorly seated contact at the computer end of the cable. Problem fixed.

--
Chuck

"Charles" <electrochuckREMOVE@XXXatt . net > wrote:
> I had that same problem on my '88 Prelude. When hot the resistance of
> solenoids A and B both went to nearly 1,000 ohms. Normally they're at
> 24 ohms. I noticed the problem first as a "flare" in the shifting
> between second and third. After a while the solenoids exhibited high
> resistance even when cold and the computer started to complain.

Well, when the problem happened it was pretty hot. Since then I tried to
limit my driving during the cooler parts of the day and for short
distances, just in case it was heat related.

>> The Service Manual includes quite an involved troubleshooting
>> procedure for code "8" to determine whether the cause was indeed the
>> solenoid or some short in the wires connected to the solenoid. I just
>> hope the mechanic took the time to go through that procedure instead
>> of taking the easy (and expensive) way out by prescribing a new
>> solenoid.
>
> Not likely and not profitable for the shop. Be sure you get the "bad"
> computer module if they replace it.

Only the solenoid will be replaced.

> Better yet measure the resistance yourself before giving them the car
> again. How many hundreds of dollars is a new computer? How much will
> you spend if you just have a bad connector or completely different
> problem? Some symptoms overlap and you may be seeing a false positive.

I agree but I am willing to risk the couple hundred dollars for the
solenoid that will probably give me a good case to have the problem
fixed for free if it turns out that not the solenoid was the culprit. I
will also make sure to get the old solenoid from them.

> I had a bad connector at the computer the last time I saw the #8 error
> code. I substituted a known good computer. (A rare $5 find on eBay.)
> Problem remained. Cleaned the connector at the transmission. Problem
> remained. Fixed a poorly seated contact at the computer end of the
> cable. Problem fixed.

You are obviously handier with these thing than I am.
By the way, I wonder if there ever was a Honda service bulletin issued
on this subject. Is there any place on the Net where one can find all
Honda SBs?

DB

Dabbler wrote:
>> Be sure you get the "bad" computer module if they replace it.
> Only the solenoid will be replaced.

Oops. I was thinking solenoids and wrote computer module.
The damage to your wallet from a new solenoid assembly should be less than
$200 plus labor.

--
Chuck

Charles wrote:
> Dabbler wrote:
>>> Be sure you get the "bad" computer module if they replace it.
>> Only the solenoid will be replaced.
>
> Oops. I was thinking solenoids and wrote computer module.
> The damage to your wallet from a new solenoid assembly should be less than
> $200 plus labor.

---------------------------

There's a good TSB about the solenoids in the CLUTCH / TRANSMISSION
section here:

* w w w .tegger . com /hondafaq/tsb/crv/index.html

"motsco_" <motsco_@interbaun . com > wrote:
> There's a good TSB about the solenoids in the CLUTCH / TRANSMISSION
> section here:
>
> * w w w .tegger . com /hondafaq/tsb/crv/index.html

Not applicable for my case though.

DB

"Charles" <electrochuckREMOVE@XXXatt . net > wrote:
> Oops. I was thinking solenoids and wrote computer module.
> The damage to your wallet from a new solenoid assembly should be less
> than $200 plus labor.

Actually $247.

DB

Well, at last my Honda dealer got the shift control solenoid and
installed it. That gives me now some peace of mind. However, I still
wonder if the short drive (about 3 miles) that took me to get the
crippled car home caused any other damage in the A/T. Since the lower
gears did not engage, there must have been excessive wear on the clutch
pads inside, just as if you try to start a M/T car in 3rd or 4th gear.
When I got home I could even smell a slight burn odor which I figured
must have been caused by the friction from the clutch pads. If my guess
is right, the ATF then must have absorbed a bunch of burned particles
from that pads and maybe at a minimum the A/T should be flushed. I was
kinda' surprised that the Honda service techies did not call my
attention to this. Am I perhaps too concerned here?

DB