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2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
RE: 2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
I've narrowed my search for a small SUV to these two cars.
Main reasons, forward folding passenger seat, reclining rear seats and
lots of rear leg room. I need these features as I sometimes need to
work on my laptop from the car and like to sit in the back.
Both FWD,
Both Leather interior.
Both black exterior.
I was able to negotiate the Vue down to about 24k Out the door.
And the Torrent for about 25k out the door.
The Vue is 4 cylinders, but drives real nice for a 4 and will save
some gas money.
The Torrent is 6 cylinders, but engine seems loud and kind of low
torque for a v6.
The Vue does 19 city mpg, the Torrent 17mpg. (Slight win for Vue -
though not a fair play)
Leather on Torrent seams cheaper grade, comes in charcoal, Vues
leather seems nicer, but in taupe. I prefer charcoal, but the taupe
does look nice with black.
As far of space in the back seat, the Torrent is incredible. roll the
driver seat up and fold the passenger side and I feel like i'm in my
living room. Incredible to think it's a small SUV.
Exterior looks, both have their pros and are attractive. To me, much
more attractive than the Honda CR-V. Also the CR-V does hot have a
folding passenger seat (who cares right? well I do). Many small size
suv's also still have the spare tire showing which is stupid.
Sometimes the Torrent looks like a Minivan. Sometimes the Vue looks
like a cheap Korean car.
All that said, I would just buy the Torrent for the rear seating space
and dark interior, my only concern is a online few reports I've read
that might imply cheap plastic parts int he car might break and that
over time, and in classic GM style, the engine might get weak and
clunky.
Any strong opinions about these cars or better alternatives? Any
reason to simply not buy the Torrent?
My most desired features in my next small SUV.
- Folding flat passenger seat
- Reclining rear seats with plenty of head and leg room
- Despite being small SUV, something that does not say, girly car like
the CR-V seems to scream.
- Decent fuel economy
- Around $25k OTD with leather (I know that seriously narrows the
field)
Thanks in advance for any help or information.
RE: 2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
I've narrowed my search for a small SUV to these two cars.
Main reasons, forward folding passenger seat, reclining rear seats and
lots of rear leg room. I need these features as I sometimes need to
work on my laptop from the car and like to sit in the back.
Both FWD,
Both Leather interior.
Both black exterior.
I was able to negotiate the Vue down to about 24k Out the door.
And the Torrent for about 25k out the door.
The Vue is 4 cylinders, but drives real nice for a 4 and will save
some gas money.
The Torrent is 6 cylinders, but engine seems loud and kind of low
torque for a v6.
The Vue does 19 city mpg, the Torrent 17mpg. (Slight win for Vue -
though not a fair play)
Leather on Torrent seams cheaper grade, comes in charcoal, Vues
leather seems nicer, but in taupe. I prefer charcoal, but the taupe
does look nice with black.
As far of space in the back seat, the Torrent is incredible. roll the
driver seat up and fold the passenger side and I feel like i'm in my
living room. Incredible to think it's a small SUV.
Exterior looks, both have their pros and are attractive. To me, much
more attractive than the Honda CR-V. Also the CR-V does hot have a
folding passenger seat (who cares right? well I do). Many small size
suv's also still have the spare tire showing which is stupid.
Sometimes the Torrent looks like a Minivan. Sometimes the Vue looks
like a cheap Korean car.
All that said, I would just buy the Torrent for the rear seating space
and dark interior, my only concern is a online few reports I've read
that might imply cheap plastic parts int he car might break and that
over time, and in classic GM style, the engine might get weak and
clunky.
Any strong opinions about these cars or better alternatives? Any
reason to simply not buy the Torrent?
My most desired features in my next small SUV.
- Folding flat passenger seat
- Reclining rear seats with plenty of head and leg room
- Despite being small SUV, something that does not say, girly car like
the CR-V seems to scream.
- Decent fuel economy
- Around $25k OTD with leather (I know that seriously narrows the
field)
Thanks in advance for any help or information.
Re: 2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
In article <3d9bcdc8-05f9-4745-b21b-
1f3f5f8fc59f@u10g2000prn.googlegroups,com >, jobs@webdos,com says...
> RE: 2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
>
> I've narrowed my search for a small SUV to these two cars.
Personally I dont like the New Vues. Foreign made (german engine,
mexican chassis IIRC) and the new 2.4L gets worse gas mileage than the
2.2L. The 2.4L also up'ed the octane requirements... (I'm not saying
timing chain driven Ecotecs arent good engines.) Just be sure to factor
'octane' into the mileage difference of what ever you get.
You never said which engine you were looking at in the Torrent but I'm
guessing its the 3.4 by the city mileage. The Torrent is based on the
same chassis as the Equinox. The 3.4L is no longer made in America and
is made only in China now. The Equinox&Torrent is also made in China.
The 3.4L engine was an awful design so stay away from it. The optional
3.6 VVT engine is very advance (aka complex) and still to new to judge
but I don't really care for it...
I'm not fan of the CR-V either... There are no SUV's I like anymore
since the Vue changed... Maybe you could consider a Crew Cab Colorado
but I doubt it that. The 2.9L actually does pretty good in it. I could
name a few nice cars but I don't think they'll fit your need. If I HAD
to have a 'new' SUV it would be the Vue but I'd rather have the older
2.2L ones.
> Main reasons, forward folding passenger seat, reclining rear seats and
> lots of rear leg room. I need these features as I sometimes need to
> work on my laptop from the car and like to sit in the back.
>
> Both FWD,
> Both Leather interior.
> Both black exterior.
>
> I was able to negotiate the Vue down to about 24k Out the door.
>
> And the Torrent for about 25k out the door.
>
> The Vue is 4 cylinders, but drives real nice for a 4 and will save
> some gas money.
>
> The Torrent is 6 cylinders, but engine seems loud and kind of low
> torque for a v6.
>
> The Vue does 19 city mpg, the Torrent 17mpg. (Slight win for Vue -
> though not a fair play)
>
> Leather on Torrent seams cheaper grade, comes in charcoal, Vues
> leather seems nicer, but in taupe. I prefer charcoal, but the taupe
> does look nice with black.
>
> As far of space in the back seat, the Torrent is incredible. roll the
> driver seat up and fold the passenger side and I feel like i'm in my
> living room. Incredible to think it's a small SUV.
>
> Exterior looks, both have their pros and are attractive. To me, much
> more attractive than the Honda CR-V. Also the CR-V does hot have a
> folding passenger seat (who cares right? well I do). Many small size
> suv's also still have the spare tire showing which is stupid.
> Sometimes the Torrent looks like a Minivan. Sometimes the Vue looks
> like a cheap Korean car.
>
> All that said, I would just buy the Torrent for the rear seating space
> and dark interior, my only concern is a online few reports I've read
> that might imply cheap plastic parts int he car might break and that
> over time, and in classic GM style, the engine might get weak and
> clunky.
>
> Any strong opinions about these cars or better alternatives? Any
> reason to simply not buy the Torrent?
>
> My most desired features in my next small SUV.
In article <3d9bcdc8-05f9-4745-b21b-
1f3f5f8fc59f@u10g2000prn.googlegroups,com >, jobs@webdos,com says...
> RE: 2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
>
> I've narrowed my search for a small SUV to these two cars.
Personally I dont like the New Vues. Foreign made (german engine,
mexican chassis IIRC) and the new 2.4L gets worse gas mileage than the
2.2L. The 2.4L also up'ed the octane requirements... (I'm not saying
timing chain driven Ecotecs arent good engines.) Just be sure to factor
'octane' into the mileage difference of what ever you get.
You never said which engine you were looking at in the Torrent but I'm
guessing its the 3.4 by the city mileage. The Torrent is based on the
same chassis as the Equinox. The 3.4L is no longer made in America and
is made only in China now. The Equinox&Torrent is also made in China.
The 3.4L engine was an awful design so stay away from it. The optional
3.6 VVT engine is very advance (aka complex) and still to new to judge
but I don't really care for it...
I'm not fan of the CR-V either... There are no SUV's I like anymore
since the Vue changed... Maybe you could consider a Crew Cab Colorado
but I doubt it that. The 2.9L actually does pretty good in it. I could
name a few nice cars but I don't think they'll fit your need. If I HAD
to have a 'new' SUV it would be the Vue but I'd rather have the older
2.2L ones.
> Main reasons, forward folding passenger seat, reclining rear seats and
> lots of rear leg room. I need these features as I sometimes need to
> work on my laptop from the car and like to sit in the back.
>
> Both FWD,
> Both Leather interior.
> Both black exterior.
>
> I was able to negotiate the Vue down to about 24k Out the door.
>
> And the Torrent for about 25k out the door.
>
> The Vue is 4 cylinders, but drives real nice for a 4 and will save
> some gas money.
>
> The Torrent is 6 cylinders, but engine seems loud and kind of low
> torque for a v6.
>
> The Vue does 19 city mpg, the Torrent 17mpg. (Slight win for Vue -
> though not a fair play)
>
> Leather on Torrent seams cheaper grade, comes in charcoal, Vues
> leather seems nicer, but in taupe. I prefer charcoal, but the taupe
> does look nice with black.
>
> As far of space in the back seat, the Torrent is incredible. roll the
> driver seat up and fold the passenger side and I feel like i'm in my
> living room. Incredible to think it's a small SUV.
>
> Exterior looks, both have their pros and are attractive. To me, much
> more attractive than the Honda CR-V. Also the CR-V does hot have a
> folding passenger seat (who cares right? well I do). Many small size
> suv's also still have the spare tire showing which is stupid.
> Sometimes the Torrent looks like a Minivan. Sometimes the Vue looks
> like a cheap Korean car.
>
> All that said, I would just buy the Torrent for the rear seating space
> and dark interior, my only concern is a online few reports I've read
> that might imply cheap plastic parts int he car might break and that
> over time, and in classic GM style, the engine might get weak and
> clunky.
>
> Any strong opinions about these cars or better alternatives? Any
> reason to simply not buy the Torrent?
>
> My most desired features in my next small SUV.
Re: 2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
The Torrent is based upon the old VUE platform, the VUE is an all new
vehicle and you are right in noting that the Pontiac V6 is loud and
underpowered which is typical of V6 pontiacs. Go with the 4cyl VUE, the
ecotec engine in the VUE can't be beat and is tweaked to get the most power.
The Torrent is a dying model, to be eventually phased out as it's sister the
Chevy Equinox. The '08 VUE is an international SUV with much longevity for
GM and many standard safety features and a better safety rating than the
Equinox, which again, is the Torrent clone.
--
marx404
"jc" <jobs@webdos,com > wrote in message
news:3d9bcdc8-05f9-4745-b21b-1f3f5f8fc59f@u10g2000prn.googlegroups,com ...
> RE: 2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
>
> I've narrowed my search for a small SUV to these two cars.
>
> Main reasons, forward folding passenger seat, reclining rear seats and
> lots of rear leg room. I need these features as I sometimes need to
> work on my laptop from the car and like to sit in the back.
>
> Both FWD,
> Both Leather interior.
> Both black exterior.
>
> I was able to negotiate the Vue down to about 24k Out the door.
>
> And the Torrent for about 25k out the door.
>
> The Vue is 4 cylinders, but drives real nice for a 4 and will save
> some gas money.
>
> The Torrent is 6 cylinders, but engine seems loud and kind of low
> torque for a v6.
>
> The Vue does 19 city mpg, the Torrent 17mpg. (Slight win for Vue -
> though not a fair play)
>
> Leather on Torrent seams cheaper grade, comes in charcoal, Vues
> leather seems nicer, but in taupe. I prefer charcoal, but the taupe
> does look nice with black.
>
> As far of space in the back seat, the Torrent is incredible. roll the
> driver seat up and fold the passenger side and I feel like i'm in my
> living room. Incredible to think it's a small SUV.
>
> Exterior looks, both have their pros and are attractive. To me, much
> more attractive than the Honda CR-V. Also the CR-V does hot have a
> folding passenger seat (who cares right? well I do). Many small size
> suv's also still have the spare tire showing which is stupid.
> Sometimes the Torrent looks like a Minivan. Sometimes the Vue looks
> like a cheap Korean car.
>
> All that said, I would just buy the Torrent for the rear seating space
> and dark interior, my only concern is a online few reports I've read
> that might imply cheap plastic parts int he car might break and that
> over time, and in classic GM style, the engine might get weak and
> clunky.
>
> Any strong opinions about these cars or better alternatives? Any
> reason to simply not buy the Torrent?
>
> My most desired features in my next small SUV.
>
> - Folding flat passenger seat
> - Reclining rear seats with plenty of head and leg room
> - Despite being small SUV, something that does not say, girly car like
> the CR-V seems to scream.
> - Decent fuel economy
> - Around $25k OTD with leather (I know that seriously narrows the
> field)
>
> Thanks in advance for any help or information.
The Torrent is based upon the old VUE platform, the VUE is an all new
vehicle and you are right in noting that the Pontiac V6 is loud and
underpowered which is typical of V6 pontiacs. Go with the 4cyl VUE, the
ecotec engine in the VUE can't be beat and is tweaked to get the most power.
The Torrent is a dying model, to be eventually phased out as it's sister the
Chevy Equinox. The '08 VUE is an international SUV with much longevity for
GM and many standard safety features and a better safety rating than the
Equinox, which again, is the Torrent clone.
--
marx404
"jc" <jobs@webdos,com > wrote in message
news:3d9bcdc8-05f9-4745-b21b-1f3f5f8fc59f@u10g2000prn.googlegroups,com ...
> RE: 2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
>
> I've narrowed my search for a small SUV to these two cars.
>
> Main reasons, forward folding passenger seat, reclining rear seats and
> lots of rear leg room. I need these features as I sometimes need to
> work on my laptop from the car and like to sit in the back.
>
> Both FWD,
> Both Leather interior.
> Both black exterior.
>
> I was able to negotiate the Vue down to about 24k Out the door.
>
> And the Torrent for about 25k out the door.
>
> The Vue is 4 cylinders, but drives real nice for a 4 and will save
> some gas money.
>
> The Torrent is 6 cylinders, but engine seems loud and kind of low
> torque for a v6.
>
> The Vue does 19 city mpg, the Torrent 17mpg. (Slight win for Vue -
> though not a fair play)
>
> Leather on Torrent seams cheaper grade, comes in charcoal, Vues
> leather seems nicer, but in taupe. I prefer charcoal, but the taupe
> does look nice with black.
>
> As far of space in the back seat, the Torrent is incredible. roll the
> driver seat up and fold the passenger side and I feel like i'm in my
> living room. Incredible to think it's a small SUV.
>
> Exterior looks, both have their pros and are attractive. To me, much
> more attractive than the Honda CR-V. Also the CR-V does hot have a
> folding passenger seat (who cares right? well I do). Many small size
> suv's also still have the spare tire showing which is stupid.
> Sometimes the Torrent looks like a Minivan. Sometimes the Vue looks
> like a cheap Korean car.
>
> All that said, I would just buy the Torrent for the rear seating space
> and dark interior, my only concern is a online few reports I've read
> that might imply cheap plastic parts int he car might break and that
> over time, and in classic GM style, the engine might get weak and
> clunky.
>
> Any strong opinions about these cars or better alternatives? Any
> reason to simply not buy the Torrent?
>
> My most desired features in my next small SUV.
>
> - Folding flat passenger seat
> - Reclining rear seats with plenty of head and leg room
> - Despite being small SUV, something that does not say, girly car like
> the CR-V seems to scream.
> - Decent fuel economy
> - Around $25k OTD with leather (I know that seriously narrows the
> field)
>
> Thanks in advance for any help or information.
Re: 2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
In article <47821cd6$0$5156$4c368faf@roadrunner,com >, 404@404,com
says...
> The Torrent is based upon the old VUE platform, the VUE is an all new
> vehicle and you are right in noting that the Pontiac V6 is loud and
> underpowered which is typical of V6 pontiacs. Go with the 4cyl VUE, the
Marx stop trying to slander Pontiacs name with that POS motor and stop
slamming Pontaic every chance you get. GM could start using that motor
in Saturns tomorrow should they choose to. In fact the LZ4 3500 used in
the Aura & Vue is based off the 3.4 engine. Also consider Pontaic hasn't
had their own motor in almost 30 years & Saturn hasn't had their own
motor for almost 5 years now...
In article <47821cd6$0$5156$4c368faf@roadrunner,com >, 404@404,com
says...
> The Torrent is based upon the old VUE platform, the VUE is an all new
> vehicle and you are right in noting that the Pontiac V6 is loud and
> underpowered which is typical of V6 pontiacs. Go with the 4cyl VUE, the
Marx stop trying to slander Pontiacs name with that POS motor and stop
slamming Pontaic every chance you get. GM could start using that motor
in Saturns tomorrow should they choose to. In fact the LZ4 3500 used in
the Aura & Vue is based off the 3.4 engine. Also consider Pontaic hasn't
had their own motor in almost 30 years & Saturn hasn't had their own
motor for almost 5 years now...
Re: 2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
Dass it!
You tell the biatch!
"BläBlä" <killfiltered.trolls@br3tludw1g.sn0m4n.m1st3rf4ct.s!rcre4p.c0m>
wrote in message news:MPG.21ec57629c4a0cbd98976b@news-server.woh.rr,com ...
> In article <47821cd6$0$5156$4c368faf@roadrunner,com >, 404@404,com
> says...
>> The Torrent is based upon the old VUE platform, the VUE is an all new
>> vehicle and you are right in noting that the Pontiac V6 is loud and
>> underpowered which is typical of V6 pontiacs. Go with the 4cyl VUE, the
>
> Marx stop trying to slander Pontiacs name with that POS motor and stop
> slamming Pontaic every chance you get. GM could start using that motor
> in Saturns tomorrow should they choose to. In fact the LZ4 3500 used in
> the Aura & Vue is based off the 3.4 engine. Also consider Pontaic hasn't
> had their own motor in almost 30 years & Saturn hasn't had their own
> motor for almost 5 years now...
Dass it!
You tell the biatch!
"BläBlä" <killfiltered.trolls@br3tludw1g.sn0m4n.m1st3rf4ct.s!rcre4p.c0m>
wrote in message news:MPG.21ec57629c4a0cbd98976b@news-server.woh.rr,com ...
> In article <47821cd6$0$5156$4c368faf@roadrunner,com >, 404@404,com
> says...
>> The Torrent is based upon the old VUE platform, the VUE is an all new
>> vehicle and you are right in noting that the Pontiac V6 is loud and
>> underpowered which is typical of V6 pontiacs. Go with the 4cyl VUE, the
>
> Marx stop trying to slander Pontiacs name with that POS motor and stop
> slamming Pontaic every chance you get. GM could start using that motor
> in Saturns tomorrow should they choose to. In fact the LZ4 3500 used in
> the Aura & Vue is based off the 3.4 engine. Also consider Pontaic hasn't
> had their own motor in almost 30 years & Saturn hasn't had their own
> motor for almost 5 years now...
Re: 2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
Didn't mean to sound like I was slamming the Pontiac V6, and I do think the
ecotec (which you are right, isn't an original Saturn engine, it is a
Lotus/Opel engine originally, which I am quite ok with). The Pontiac V6 in
the GP was ok, but felt underpowered for what it was. ( I feel the same way
about the ecotec in the Aura I4 too) I do like Pontiac actually, you should
see what GM has in plans for them and Holdens are cool. I am just not
"excited" about anything they have had in awhile. Now, lets talk about thier
new G8, now thats something to be excited about.
I was just stating to the OP the facts that the other vehicles he was
comparing against are now based on obsolete platforms.
>>In fact the LZ4 3500 used in the Aura & Vue is based off the 3.4 engine.
Yes, pushrod is good.
--
marx404
"Refinish King" <diagnosticman@verizon,net > wrote in message
news:Hixgj.2742$EN6.1326@trndny07...
> Dass it!
>
> You tell the biatch!
> "BläBlä" <killfiltered.trolls@br3tludw1g.sn0m4n.m1st3rf4ct.s!rcre4p.c0m>
> wrote in message news:MPG.21ec57629c4a0cbd98976b@news-server.woh.rr,com ...
>> In article <47821cd6$0$5156$4c368faf@roadrunner,com >, 404@404,com
>> says...
>>> The Torrent is based upon the old VUE platform, the VUE is an all new
>>> vehicle and you are right in noting that the Pontiac V6 is loud and
>>> underpowered which is typical of V6 pontiacs. Go with the 4cyl VUE, the
>>
>> Marx stop trying to slander Pontiacs name with that POS motor and stop
>> slamming Pontaic every chance you get. GM could start using that motor
>> in Saturns tomorrow should they choose to. In fact the LZ4 3500 used in
>> the Aura & Vue is based off the 3.4 engine. Also consider Pontaic hasn't
>> had their own motor in almost 30 years & Saturn hasn't had their own
>> motor for almost 5 years now...
>
Didn't mean to sound like I was slamming the Pontiac V6, and I do think the
ecotec (which you are right, isn't an original Saturn engine, it is a
Lotus/Opel engine originally, which I am quite ok with). The Pontiac V6 in
the GP was ok, but felt underpowered for what it was. ( I feel the same way
about the ecotec in the Aura I4 too) I do like Pontiac actually, you should
see what GM has in plans for them and Holdens are cool. I am just not
"excited" about anything they have had in awhile. Now, lets talk about thier
new G8, now thats something to be excited about.
I was just stating to the OP the facts that the other vehicles he was
comparing against are now based on obsolete platforms.
>>In fact the LZ4 3500 used in the Aura & Vue is based off the 3.4 engine.
Yes, pushrod is good.
--
marx404
"Refinish King" <diagnosticman@verizon,net > wrote in message
news:Hixgj.2742$EN6.1326@trndny07...
> Dass it!
>
> You tell the biatch!
> "BläBlä" <killfiltered.trolls@br3tludw1g.sn0m4n.m1st3rf4ct.s!rcre4p.c0m>
> wrote in message news:MPG.21ec57629c4a0cbd98976b@news-server.woh.rr,com ...
>> In article <47821cd6$0$5156$4c368faf@roadrunner,com >, 404@404,com
>> says...
>>> The Torrent is based upon the old VUE platform, the VUE is an all new
>>> vehicle and you are right in noting that the Pontiac V6 is loud and
>>> underpowered which is typical of V6 pontiacs. Go with the 4cyl VUE, the
>>
>> Marx stop trying to slander Pontiacs name with that POS motor and stop
>> slamming Pontaic every chance you get. GM could start using that motor
>> in Saturns tomorrow should they choose to. In fact the LZ4 3500 used in
>> the Aura & Vue is based off the 3.4 engine. Also consider Pontaic hasn't
>> had their own motor in almost 30 years & Saturn hasn't had their own
>> motor for almost 5 years now...
>
Re: 2008 Saturn Vue XE 4 cylinder vs 2008 Pontiac Torrent
511. If we would say that man is too insignificant to deserve communion with
God, we must indeed be very great to judge of it.
512. It is, in peculiar phraseology, wholly the body of Jesus Christ, but it
cannot be said to be the whole body of Jesus Christ. The union of two things
without change does not enable us to say that one becomes the other; the
soul thus being united to the body, the fire to the timber, without change.
But change is necessary to make the form of the one become the form of the
other; thus the union of the Word to man. Because my body without my soul
would not make the body of a man; therefore my soul united to any matter
whatsoever will make my body. It does not distinguish the necessary
condition from the sufficient condition; the union is necessary, but not
sufficient. The left arm is not the right.
Impenetrability is a property of matter.
Identity de numero in regard to the same time requires the identity of
matter.
Thus if God united my soul to a body in China, the same body, idem numero
would be in China.
The same river which runs there is idem numero as that which runs at the
same time in China.
513. Why God has established prayer.
1. To communicate to His creatures the dignity of causality.
2. To teach us from whom our virtue comes.
3. To make us deserve other virtues by work.
(But to keep His own pre-eminence, He grants prayer to whom He pleases.)
Objection: But we believe that we hold prayer of ourselves.
This is absurd; for since, though having faith, we cannot have virtues,
511. If we would say that man is too insignificant to deserve communion with
God, we must indeed be very great to judge of it.
512. It is, in peculiar phraseology, wholly the body of Jesus Christ, but it
cannot be said to be the whole body of Jesus Christ. The union of two things
without change does not enable us to say that one becomes the other; the
soul thus being united to the body, the fire to the timber, without change.
But change is necessary to make the form of the one become the form of the
other; thus the union of the Word to man. Because my body without my soul
would not make the body of a man; therefore my soul united to any matter
whatsoever will make my body. It does not distinguish the necessary
condition from the sufficient condition; the union is necessary, but not
sufficient. The left arm is not the right.
Impenetrability is a property of matter.
Identity de numero in regard to the same time requires the identity of
matter.
Thus if God united my soul to a body in China, the same body, idem numero
would be in China.
The same river which runs there is idem numero as that which runs at the
same time in China.
513. Why God has established prayer.
1. To communicate to His creatures the dignity of causality.
2. To teach us from whom our virtue comes.
3. To make us deserve other virtues by work.
(But to keep His own pre-eminence, He grants prayer to whom He pleases.)
Objection: But we believe that we hold prayer of ourselves.
This is absurd; for since, though having faith, we cannot have virtues,
