Add group to favorites
Back to post list
Send new message to group Search:
Post Subject:
is picking a side a requirement?
is picking a side a requirement?
Let's see if I have this right...
One group apparently believes they had the Indy 500 stolen from them
following '95 and they want it back. The other apparently believes that
what was done after '95 was a step in the right direction and wants
that process to continue.
So why do these two groups of people actually hate EACH OTHER? It seems
like two reasonable reactions to what occurred, so why is this all so
personal?
I can see a current CCWS fan wanting the IRL to fail so that it can put
things basically back the way they were and I can see a current IRL fan
wanting CCWS to fail so that those drivers/sites/resources, etc. will
be part of the Indy 500 again as well as other IRL events.
But when open wheel is struggling so much, how does blowing all of this
energy pointing fingers at each other add anything to the sport in
general?
It seems that in order for a sport to grow, it needs to focus all
energy (including its core fan base) on hyping its events/upcoming
season and there appears to be almost none of that in open wheel from
what I can see.
Look at the current off season...How much 'hot stove' talk is there
about open wheel in the larger sporting world? I see almost nothing.
Almost all of the talk here is the pro-IRL people fighting with the
pro-CCWS people. How does that advance anything?
I trust there are a few other quiet folks out here who actually don't
mind the diversity of having two series with their own storylines and
competition - providing in essence double the number of events. I'd be
excited to see it come together - but only in a pro-growth move and not
driven by the desperation by one or the other side. Neither series
seems strong enough to handle somebody else's desperation.
Am I alone on this list or must you pick a side in order to be welcome?
me
Let's see if I have this right...
One group apparently believes they had the Indy 500 stolen from them
following '95 and they want it back. The other apparently believes that
what was done after '95 was a step in the right direction and wants
that process to continue.
So why do these two groups of people actually hate EACH OTHER? It seems
like two reasonable reactions to what occurred, so why is this all so
personal?
I can see a current CCWS fan wanting the IRL to fail so that it can put
things basically back the way they were and I can see a current IRL fan
wanting CCWS to fail so that those drivers/sites/resources, etc. will
be part of the Indy 500 again as well as other IRL events.
But when open wheel is struggling so much, how does blowing all of this
energy pointing fingers at each other add anything to the sport in
general?
It seems that in order for a sport to grow, it needs to focus all
energy (including its core fan base) on hyping its events/upcoming
season and there appears to be almost none of that in open wheel from
what I can see.
Look at the current off season...How much 'hot stove' talk is there
about open wheel in the larger sporting world? I see almost nothing.
Almost all of the talk here is the pro-IRL people fighting with the
pro-CCWS people. How does that advance anything?
I trust there are a few other quiet folks out here who actually don't
mind the diversity of having two series with their own storylines and
competition - providing in essence double the number of events. I'd be
excited to see it come together - but only in a pro-growth move and not
driven by the desperation by one or the other side. Neither series
seems strong enough to handle somebody else's desperation.
Am I alone on this list or must you pick a side in order to be welcome?
me
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
I suggest that you study history a little more carefully before you post
such a message.
Pay particular attention to the attacks by the IRL against Champ Car.
Trying to buy its resources in an effort to shut them down. Trying to
buy exclusives on established Champ Car venues.
Or just to throw some real facts into the picture, check the attendance
at races other than the Indy 500 just to see if the IRL club is real.
Or is it just a plastic creation founded for the single purpose of
wrecking Champ Car for the sole benefit of Tony George.
Do a little research on the founding ideals of the IRL. See how that
maps to the current racing.
If the IRL was founded to save open wheel from the clutches of a failing
racing plan, why does the current IRL follow the same competition plan
of Champ Car and look so much like Champ Car?
As was recently stated, the IRL was never about the racing.
Or are you maybe just another troll?
I suggest that you study history a little more carefully before you post
such a message.
Pay particular attention to the attacks by the IRL against Champ Car.
Trying to buy its resources in an effort to shut them down. Trying to
buy exclusives on established Champ Car venues.
Or just to throw some real facts into the picture, check the attendance
at races other than the Indy 500 just to see if the IRL club is real.
Or is it just a plastic creation founded for the single purpose of
wrecking Champ Car for the sole benefit of Tony George.
Do a little research on the founding ideals of the IRL. See how that
maps to the current racing.
If the IRL was founded to save open wheel from the clutches of a failing
racing plan, why does the current IRL follow the same competition plan
of Champ Car and look so much like Champ Car?
As was recently stated, the IRL was never about the racing.
Or are you maybe just another troll?
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:02:27 -0600, Cal Vanize wrote:
>
> Or are you maybe just another troll?
More likely just one of the old trolls.
Bob
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:02:27 -0600, Cal Vanize wrote:
>
> Or are you maybe just another troll?
More likely just one of the old trolls.
Bob
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:02:27 -0600, Cal Vanize
<dont.even.spam.me@myspam.org> wrote:
>
>I suggest that you study history a little more carefully before you post
>such a message.
[snip]
So that's a "yes." Along with a pitch for which side to pick.
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:02:27 -0600, Cal Vanize
<dont.even.spam.me@myspam.org> wrote:
>
>I suggest that you study history a little more carefully before you post
>such a message.
[snip]
So that's a "yes." Along with a pitch for which side to pick.
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
Ken Plotkin wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:02:27 -0600, Cal Vanize
> <dont.even.spam.me@myspam.org> wrote:
>
>
>>I suggest that you study history a little more carefully before you post
>>such a message.
>
> [snip]
>
> So that's a "yes." Along with a pitch for which side to pick.
True. When one looks at the events in a logical and objective manner,
there's only one logical conclusion.
Ken Plotkin wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:02:27 -0600, Cal Vanize
> <dont.even.spam.me@myspam.org> wrote:
>
>
>>I suggest that you study history a little more carefully before you post
>>such a message.
>
> [snip]
>
> So that's a "yes." Along with a pitch for which side to pick.
True. When one looks at the events in a logical and objective manner,
there's only one logical conclusion.
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
"Cal Vanize" <dont.even.spam.me@myspam.org> wrote in message
news:Fnysh.62$y_1.51@newsfe02.lga...
>
>
> Ken Plotkin wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:02:27 -0600, Cal Vanize
>> <dont.even.spam.me@myspam.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I suggest that you study history a little more carefully before you post
>>>such a message.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> So that's a "yes." Along with a pitch for which side to pick.
>
> True. When one looks at the events in a logical and objective manner,
> there's only one logical conclusion.
>
>
>
The only logical conclusion is that CART stole the whole thing from USAC and
now they are crying foul after they ran it into the ground.
"Cal Vanize" <dont.even.spam.me@myspam.org> wrote in message
news:Fnysh.62$y_1.51@newsfe02.lga...
>
>
> Ken Plotkin wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:02:27 -0600, Cal Vanize
>> <dont.even.spam.me@myspam.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I suggest that you study history a little more carefully before you post
>>>such a message.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> So that's a "yes." Along with a pitch for which side to pick.
>
> True. When one looks at the events in a logical and objective manner,
> there's only one logical conclusion.
>
>
>
The only logical conclusion is that CART stole the whole thing from USAC and
now they are crying foul after they ran it into the ground.
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
>
> The only logical conclusion is that CART stole the whole thing from USAC
> and now they are crying foul after they ran it into the ground.
>
Well that doesn't follow the facts. First of all CART never sanctioned the
Indy 500. It was USAC till the IRL took over. (Remember that fine victory
lane in Texas where AJ went to victory lane, but he didn't win the race)
Second when CART formed, they were a bunch of racers trying to make a
living. No one cared about any race outside the 500. Not much different
about that in the IRL now. They formed a series that would reward the teams
enough to justify the business and physical risks of racing. The family
tradition of lock outs was born. The speedway tried to bar several teams
from competing in the 500, even though they had cars that met the rules that
applied to everyone else. The Cart teams filed a suit and the speedway lost
in federal court. Cart prospered, but the USAC gold crown series faded into
history.
>
> The only logical conclusion is that CART stole the whole thing from USAC
> and now they are crying foul after they ran it into the ground.
>
Well that doesn't follow the facts. First of all CART never sanctioned the
Indy 500. It was USAC till the IRL took over. (Remember that fine victory
lane in Texas where AJ went to victory lane, but he didn't win the race)
Second when CART formed, they were a bunch of racers trying to make a
living. No one cared about any race outside the 500. Not much different
about that in the IRL now. They formed a series that would reward the teams
enough to justify the business and physical risks of racing. The family
tradition of lock outs was born. The speedway tried to bar several teams
from competing in the 500, even though they had cars that met the rules that
applied to everyone else. The Cart teams filed a suit and the speedway lost
in federal court. Cart prospered, but the USAC gold crown series faded into
history.
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
RickyBobby wrote:
>
> The only logical conclusion is that CART stole the whole thing from USAC and
> now they are crying foul after they ran it into the ground.
>
>
Oh, another bitter USAC fan. Or is it USUC fan? They should be
included in any description of why the IRL is failing. They couldn't
keep up with racing when CART broke free, they can't run an event now.
RickyBobby wrote:
>
> The only logical conclusion is that CART stole the whole thing from USAC and
> now they are crying foul after they ran it into the ground.
>
>
Oh, another bitter USAC fan. Or is it USUC fan? They should be
included in any description of why the IRL is failing. They couldn't
keep up with racing when CART broke free, they can't run an event now.
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 18:23:00 -0600, Cal Vanize
<dont.even.spam.me@myspam.org> wrote:
>True. When one looks at the events in a logical and objective manner,
>there's only one logical conclusion.
At last - we agree on something!
Now we just need to figure out why each of us has come to a different
logical conclusion.
Ken Plotkin
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 18:23:00 -0600, Cal Vanize
<dont.even.spam.me@myspam.org> wrote:
>True. When one looks at the events in a logical and objective manner,
>there's only one logical conclusion.
At last - we agree on something!
Now we just need to figure out why each of us has come to a different
logical conclusion.
Ken Plotkin
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
Cal;
I have no argument concerning your view of the facts. I just find it
hard to believe that it seems the most passionate content here isn't
related to 'intra-Series' rivalries even after more than 10 years. Both
series need a lot of that to grow. It just seems like the fan base is
stuck in this time warp and can't move ahead and it is really hurting
the sport.
Maybe nobody else feels that way.
For example, college football fans at Auburn and Alabama buy tickets,
buy shirts, give money and tune into radio and TV shows about their
schools in large part because of the rivaly between the two of them.
But if their fans all decided instead that they were going to stop
doing those things so they could waste attention bash the NFL in the
name of college football, their rivalry would be greatly diminished.
me
Cal Vanize wrote:
> I suggest that you study history a little more carefully before you post
> such a message.
>
> Pay particular attention to the attacks by the IRL against Champ Car.
> Trying to buy its resources in an effort to shut them down. Trying to
> buy exclusives on established Champ Car venues.
>
> Or just to throw some real facts into the picture, check the attendance
> at races other than the Indy 500 just to see if the IRL club is real.
> Or is it just a plastic creation founded for the single purpose of
> wrecking Champ Car for the sole benefit of Tony George.
>
> Do a little research on the founding ideals of the IRL. See how that
> maps to the current racing.
>
> If the IRL was founded to save open wheel from the clutches of a failing
> racing plan, why does the current IRL follow the same competition plan
> of Champ Car and look so much like Champ Car?
>
> As was recently stated, the IRL was never about the racing.
>
>
>
> Or are you maybe just another troll?
Cal;
I have no argument concerning your view of the facts. I just find it
hard to believe that it seems the most passionate content here isn't
related to 'intra-Series' rivalries even after more than 10 years. Both
series need a lot of that to grow. It just seems like the fan base is
stuck in this time warp and can't move ahead and it is really hurting
the sport.
Maybe nobody else feels that way.
For example, college football fans at Auburn and Alabama buy tickets,
buy shirts, give money and tune into radio and TV shows about their
schools in large part because of the rivaly between the two of them.
But if their fans all decided instead that they were going to stop
doing those things so they could waste attention bash the NFL in the
name of college football, their rivalry would be greatly diminished.
me
Cal Vanize wrote:
> I suggest that you study history a little more carefully before you post
> such a message.
>
> Pay particular attention to the attacks by the IRL against Champ Car.
> Trying to buy its resources in an effort to shut them down. Trying to
> buy exclusives on established Champ Car venues.
>
> Or just to throw some real facts into the picture, check the attendance
> at races other than the Indy 500 just to see if the IRL club is real.
> Or is it just a plastic creation founded for the single purpose of
> wrecking Champ Car for the sole benefit of Tony George.
>
> Do a little research on the founding ideals of the IRL. See how that
> maps to the current racing.
>
> If the IRL was founded to save open wheel from the clutches of a failing
> racing plan, why does the current IRL follow the same competition plan
> of Champ Car and look so much like Champ Car?
>
> As was recently stated, the IRL was never about the racing.
>
>
>
> Or are you maybe just another troll?
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
<u8241@hotmail,com > wrote in message
news:1169334017.637962.180020@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups,com ...
> Cal;
>
> I have no argument concerning your view of the facts. I just find it
> hard to believe that it seems the most passionate content here isn't
> related to 'intra-Series' rivalries even after more than 10 years. Both
> series need a lot of that to grow. It just seems like the fan base is
> stuck in this time warp and can't move ahead and it is really hurting
> the sport.
>
>
About 96% of the fan base was alientated by the sudden influx of foreign
drivers. The open wheel series did it to themselves. Do not blame the
fans. The open wheel moguls did not seems to think that the Foyt, Mears,
Andretti, Unser group was getting the job done so they hired a bunch of hot
shoes who totally drove off the fans. Those motorsports fans were sucked up
by the Earnhardt, Gordon, Stewart series and that series is not giving them
back.
<u8241@hotmail,com > wrote in message
news:1169334017.637962.180020@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups,com ...
> Cal;
>
> I have no argument concerning your view of the facts. I just find it
> hard to believe that it seems the most passionate content here isn't
> related to 'intra-Series' rivalries even after more than 10 years. Both
> series need a lot of that to grow. It just seems like the fan base is
> stuck in this time warp and can't move ahead and it is really hurting
> the sport.
>
>
About 96% of the fan base was alientated by the sudden influx of foreign
drivers. The open wheel series did it to themselves. Do not blame the
fans. The open wheel moguls did not seems to think that the Foyt, Mears,
Andretti, Unser group was getting the job done so they hired a bunch of hot
shoes who totally drove off the fans. Those motorsports fans were sucked up
by the Earnhardt, Gordon, Stewart series and that series is not giving them
back.
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
Think more like NFL/AFL or NBA/ABA, except without the hair and the
ankle length coats.
Ken Plotkin can fill you in on the technical flaws in the rasi and rasc
charters.
Both of the sanctioning bodies have expressed interest in merging their
series, so discussion of how this change may shake out probably is
appropriate in either group. "The three point line sucks/rules" would
be appropriate in basketball discussion. News/speculation about Champ
Car probably isn't appropriate in rasi unless it will impact the IRL;
eg "When Kevin Kalkhoven goes to prison, the IRL will race at Long
Beach." The same logic applies to rasc.
There's little true "hot stove" news in either the IRL or Champ Car.
The off-track news essentially is economic: this or that
team/track/sanctioning body found/lost sponsorship, which means they
will increase/decrease/continue their operations and hire/fire/keep
personnel. Even the biggest on-track story in Champ Car last year
ended up as an off-track economic story when Allmendinger signed a
multi-million deal to drive in Nascar.
The rest of the intramural squabbling is Sam and Ralph style hijinx, or
bear baiting, or whatever metaphor you like. No different than any
unmoderated discussion forum on the wire. If you want focused
discussion of any subject, you need wise moderation.
Think more like NFL/AFL or NBA/ABA, except without the hair and the
ankle length coats.
Ken Plotkin can fill you in on the technical flaws in the rasi and rasc
charters.
Both of the sanctioning bodies have expressed interest in merging their
series, so discussion of how this change may shake out probably is
appropriate in either group. "The three point line sucks/rules" would
be appropriate in basketball discussion. News/speculation about Champ
Car probably isn't appropriate in rasi unless it will impact the IRL;
eg "When Kevin Kalkhoven goes to prison, the IRL will race at Long
Beach." The same logic applies to rasc.
There's little true "hot stove" news in either the IRL or Champ Car.
The off-track news essentially is economic: this or that
team/track/sanctioning body found/lost sponsorship, which means they
will increase/decrease/continue their operations and hire/fire/keep
personnel. Even the biggest on-track story in Champ Car last year
ended up as an off-track economic story when Allmendinger signed a
multi-million deal to drive in Nascar.
The rest of the intramural squabbling is Sam and Ralph style hijinx, or
bear baiting, or whatever metaphor you like. No different than any
unmoderated discussion forum on the wire. If you want focused
discussion of any subject, you need wise moderation.
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
Maple1;
I fully agree that fans need to pick sides - but wouldn't both series
benefit more if the core fan base focused on building the rivalries
within that series?
Supporting the sponsors tied to a series seems fine, but wouldn't the
series grow if the followers of each ignored the other and focused on
growing what they cared about?
Maple1 wrote:
> Not only is picking a side a requirement Purchasing from the sponsors is
> a requirement because without their support......
>
> So... I shop a WAlmart, Bought a Ford, Buy Brigstone tires, eat an
> McDonalds, I have a Visa card Ship Via UPS and so on
>
> I also go to the RAce here to show my support. And I am sure to watch
> every race on TV. Even though the wife bitches about it.
>
> That what it is to be a fan
>
> And Fans pick sides.
Maple1;
I fully agree that fans need to pick sides - but wouldn't both series
benefit more if the core fan base focused on building the rivalries
within that series?
Supporting the sponsors tied to a series seems fine, but wouldn't the
series grow if the followers of each ignored the other and focused on
growing what they cared about?
Maple1 wrote:
> Not only is picking a side a requirement Purchasing from the sponsors is
> a requirement because without their support......
>
> So... I shop a WAlmart, Bought a Ford, Buy Brigstone tires, eat an
> McDonalds, I have a Visa card Ship Via UPS and so on
>
> I also go to the RAce here to show my support. And I am sure to watch
> every race on TV. Even though the wife bitches about it.
>
> That what it is to be a fan
>
> And Fans pick sides.
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
<u8241@hotmail,com > wrote in message
news:1169334599.249688.136270@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups,com ...
> Maple1;
>
> I fully agree that fans need to pick sides - but wouldn't both series
> benefit more if the core fan base focused on building the rivalries
> within that series?
>
> Supporting the sponsors tied to a series seems fine, but wouldn't the
> series grow if the followers of each ignored the other and focused on
> growing what they cared about?
>
>
What the fans care about is media friendly drivers. That means drivers who
speak English without an accent.
Helio and Sebastien are no Dale and Darrell.
<u8241@hotmail,com > wrote in message
news:1169334599.249688.136270@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups,com ...
> Maple1;
>
> I fully agree that fans need to pick sides - but wouldn't both series
> benefit more if the core fan base focused on building the rivalries
> within that series?
>
> Supporting the sponsors tied to a series seems fine, but wouldn't the
> series grow if the followers of each ignored the other and focused on
> growing what they cared about?
>
>
What the fans care about is media friendly drivers. That means drivers who
speak English without an accent.
Helio and Sebastien are no Dale and Darrell.
Re: is picking a side a requirement?
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 16:12:57 -0800, RickyBobby <nascar42@cox,net > wrote:
>
><u8241@hotmail,com > wrote in message
> news:1169334599.249688.136270@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups,com ...
>> Maple1;
>>
>> I fully agree that fans need to pick sides - but wouldn't both series
>> benefit more if the core fan base focused on building the rivalries
>> within that series?
>>
>> Supporting the sponsors tied to a series seems fine, but wouldn't the
>> series grow if the followers of each ignored the other and focused on
>> growing what they cared about?
>>
>>
>
> What the fans care about is media friendly drivers. That means drivers who
> speak English without an accent.
>
> Helio and Sebastien are no Dale and Darrell.
>
>
Dale and Darrell speak English?
Bob
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 16:12:57 -0800, RickyBobby <nascar42@cox,net > wrote:
>
><u8241@hotmail,com > wrote in message
> news:1169334599.249688.136270@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups,com ...
>> Maple1;
>>
>> I fully agree that fans need to pick sides - but wouldn't both series
>> benefit more if the core fan base focused on building the rivalries
>> within that series?
>>
>> Supporting the sponsors tied to a series seems fine, but wouldn't the
>> series grow if the followers of each ignored the other and focused on
>> growing what they cared about?
>>
>>
>
> What the fans care about is media friendly drivers. That means drivers who
> speak English without an accent.
>
> Helio and Sebastien are no Dale and Darrell.
>
>
Dale and Darrell speak English?
Bob
