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Driver Rankings - after Catalunya
Numbers in brackets () in second column indicate table positions before
adding the most recent GP (IE the change in table position).
GPs - number of GPs counted for each driver (from the last 100)
[-1] [+1], etc. - number of races deleted or added to driver's record
since the last event
PP - number of Pole Positions (in the last 100)
W - number of wins (in the last 100)
FL - number of Fastest Laps (in the last 100)
Points - these are 'my' points, allocated for many & various things, not
just wins, poles, f.laps, etc.
[Change] - the change in points as a result of the most recent race
** - current drivers
The Last 100 GPs (~5 years)
===========================
First race (GP #1) - British GP, 07 July 2002
Last race (GP #100) - Spanish GP, 27 April 2008
Driver GPs [Ch] PP W FL Points [Change]
===================================================================
1 Fernando Alonso 91 [+1] 17 19 11 5450.33 [-52.44] **
2 Kimi Räikkönen 99 15 17 25 5200.31 [+199.67] **
3 Michael Schumacher 79 [-1] 22 32 29 3998.97 [-114.02]
4 Felipe Massa 81 10 6 8 3790.71 [+32.77] **
5 Lewis Hamilton 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
6 Rubens Barrichello 98 8 7 10 2037.60 [-48.85] **
7 Giancarlo Fisichella 97 2 3 1 1972.84 [-12.25] **
8 Jenson Button 95 3 1 - 1785.58 [+4.23] **
9 Nick Heidfeld 94 1 - 1 1687.38 [-4.88] **
10 (11) Jarno Trulli 98 2 1 - 1505.89 [-2.53] **
11 (10) Juan Pablo Montoya 65 [-1] 6 6 6 1486.46 [-45.89]
12 Ralf Schumacher 87 [-1] 4 2 2 1362.07 [-35.13]
13 David Coulthard 99 - 1 1 1252.69 [-4.55] **
14 Mark Webber 99 - - - 1143.29 [+23.81] **
15 Takuma Sato 78 - - - 968.33 [+6.34] **
16 Robert Kubica 25 [+1] 1 - - 937.13 [+41.29] **
17 Nico Rosberg 39 [+1] - - 1 753.73 [+3.96] **
18 Heikki Kovalainen 21 [+1] - - 2 725.28 [+0.02] **
19 Vitantonio Liuzzi 39 - - - 559.54 [-7.36]
20 Christijan Albers 45 - - - 530.60 [-8.18]
21 Jacques Villeneuve 55 [-1] - - - 487.29 [-12.26]
22 Christian Klien 46 - - - 472.09 [-9.38]
23 Tiago Monteiro 36 - - - 461.80 [-7.83]
24 Alexander Wurz 17 - - - 374.51 [-4.57]
25 Scott Speed 28 - - - 356.33 [-4.81]
26 Anthony Davidson 24 [+1] - - - 343.11 [+0.64] **
27 Adrian Sutil 21 [+1] - - - 291.98 [-0.56] **
28 Pedro de la Rosa 17 [-1] - - 1 240.58 [-4.80]
29 Narain Karthikeyan 19 - - - 199.90 [-3.83]
30 Sebastian Vettel 12 [+1] - - - 191.70 [+0.63] **
31 Sakon Yamamoto 14 - - - 187.77 [-2.18]
32 Olivier Panis 40 [-1] - - - 169.30 [-8.15]
33 Robert Doornbos 11 - - - 145.90 [-2.28]
34 (37) Kazuki Nakajima 5 [+1] - - - 144.73 [+34.03] **
35 (34) Cristiano da Matta 27 - - - 127.53 [-5.93]
36 (35) Antonio Pizzonia 20 - - - 119.55 [-3.79]
37 (36) Zsolt Baumgartner 20 - - - 117.69 [-3.58]
38 (40) Timo Glock 8 [+1] - - - 104.85 [+22.76] **
39 (38) Gianmaria Bruni 18 - - - 94.54 [-2.80]
40 (39) Patrick Friesacher 11 - - - 83.73 [-1.72]
41 Giorgio Pantano 14 - - - 64.72 [-2.07]
42 (43) Sébastien Bourdais 4 [+1] - - - 64.34 [+3.81] **
43 (42) Franck Montagny 7 - - - 61.50 [-0.89]
44 (45) Nelson Piquet 4 [+1] - - - 53.27 [+3.67] **
45 (44) Heinz-Harald Frentzen 18 [-1] - - - 52.78 [-3.72]
46 Jos Verstappen 16 - - - 46.31 [-2.76]
47 Justin Wilson 16 - - - 41.72 [-2.42]
48 Ralph Firman 14 - - - 37.54 [-2.34]
49 Ricardo Zonta 5 - - - 35.98 [-0.91]
50 Yuji Ide 4 - - - 35.76 [-0.56]
51 Marc Gené 3 - - - 25.91 [-0.91]
52 Nicholas Kiesa 5 - - - 24.67 [-1.12]
53 (54) Markus Winkelhock 1 - - - 11.34 [-0.13]
54 (53) Eddie Irvine 8 [-1] - - - 9.66 [-1.96]
55 Mika Salo 8 [-1] - - - 8.45 [-1.83]
56 Alan McNish 7 [-1] - - - 4.40 [-1.24]
57 Alex Yoong 4 [-1] - - - 3.11 [-0.78]
58 Enrique Bernoldi 2 [-1] - - - 0.51 [-0.46]
Fifty eight drivers have driven in the last 100 GPs.
The last 156 weeks (3 years)
============================
First race (GP #1) - Spanish GP, 08 May 2005
Last race (GP #54) - Spanish GP, 27 April 2008
Driver GPs PP W FL Points [Change]
==================================================================
1 Fernando Alonso 54 [+1] 12 16 9 4754.00 [-28.80] **
2 Kimi Räikkönen 54 [+1] 12 15 19 4609.60 [+226.40] **
3 Felipe Massa 53 [+1] 10 6 8 3605.34 [+39.54] **
4 Lewis Hamilton 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
5 Michael Schumacher 34 5 8 10 2319.64 [-35.47]
6 Giancarlo Fisichella 53 [+1] 1 1 1 1614.87 [+1.16] **
7 Nick Heidfeld 49 [+1] 1 - 1 1463.51 [+5.45] **
8 Jenson Button 51 [+1] 2 1 - 1335.40 [+21.72] **
9 Rubens Barrichello 54 [+1] - - - 1055.45 [-3.93] **
10 Jarno Trulli 54 [+1] - - - 1025.58 [+15.84] **
11 Ralf Schumacher 50 1 - 1 980.79 [-14.54]
12 (13) Robert Kubica 25 [+1] 1 - - 937.13 [+41.29] **
13 (12) David Coulthard 54 [+1] - - - 913.56 [+11.93] **
14 (15) Mark Webber 54 [+1] - - - 911.75 [+33.54] **
15 (14) Juan Pablo Montoya 23 2 3 1 865.07 [-14.96]
16 Nico Rosberg 39 [+1] - - 1 753.73 [+3.96] **
17 Takuma Sato 49 [+1] - - - 747.41 [+14.60] **
18 Heikki Kovalainen 21 [+1] - - 2 725.28 [+0.02] **
19 Vitantonio Liuzzi 39 - - - 559.54 [-7.36]
20 Christijan Albers 42 - - - 507.34 [-7.66]
25 Anthony Davidson 21 [+1] - - - 340.72 [+0.90] **
27 Adrian Sutil 21 [+1] - - - 291.98 [-0.56] **
29 Sebastian Vettel 12 [+1] - - - 191.70 [+0.63] **
33 Kazuki Nakajima 5 [+1] - - - 144.73 [+34.03] **
34 (39) Timo Glock 4 [+1] - - - 65.84 [+23.79] **
35 (36) Sébastien Bourdais 4 [+1] - - - 64.34 [+3.81] **
38 Nelson Piquet 4 [+1] - - - 53.27 [+3.67] **
Forty one drivers have driven in the last three years (156 weeks).
The last 104 weeks (2 years)
============================
First race (GP #1) - European GP, 07 May 2006
Last race (GP #36) - Spanish GP, 27 April 2008
Driver GPs PP W FL Points [Change]
==================================================================
1 Fernando Alonso 36 [+1] 8 9 7 3434.32 [-5.09] **
2 Felipe Massa 35 [+1] 10 6 8 3345.74 [+44.20] **
3 Kimi Räikkönen 36 [+1] 7 8 9 3247.55 [+251.69] **
4 Lewis Hamilton 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
5 Michael Schumacher 15 3 7 7 1650.81 [-23.11]
6 Nick Heidfeld 36 [+1] - - 1 1190.29 [+10.69] **
7 Giancarlo Fisichella 35 [+1] - - - 1013.16 [+11.61] **
8 Robert Kubica 25 [+1] 1 - - 937.13 [+41.29] **
9 Jenson Button 36 [+1] - 1 - 828.21 [+30.57] **
10 (11) Jarno Trulli 36 [+1] - - - 736.38 [+21.24] **
11 (10) Heikki Kovalainen 21 [+1] - - 2 725.28 [+0.02] **
12 Nico Rosberg 36 [+1] - - - 711.58 [+4.63] **
13 Rubens Barrichello 35 [+1] - - - 705.76 [+2.49] **
14 David Coulthard 36 [+1] - - - 684.57 [+16.13] **
15 Mark Webber 36 [+1] - - - 618.49 [+38.95] **
16 Takuma Sato 35 [+1] - - - 580.97 [+17.54] **
17 Ralf Schumacher 32 - - - 547.24 [-6.83]
18 Vitantonio Liuzzi 32 - - - 488.22 [-6.05]
19 Alexander Wurz 16 - - - 346.86 [-3.97]
20 Anthony Davidson 21 [+1] - - - 340.72 [+0.90] **
23 Adrian Sutil 21 [+1] - - - 291.98 [-0.56] **
25 Sebastian Vettel 12 [+1] - - - 191.70 [+0.63] **
29 (31) Kazuki Nakajima 5 [+1] - - - 144.73 [+34.03] **
32 (36) Timo Glock 4 [+1] - - - 65.84 [+23.79] **
33 Sébastien Bourdais 4 [+1] - - - 64.34 [+3.81] **
36 (35) Nelson Piquet 4 [+1] - - - 53.27 [+3.67] **
Thirty eight drivers have driven in the last two years (104 weeks).
Note that unlike after most events NO races have been removed from the
104-week data - compared to the last report, data for 36 rather than 35
races is included.
The last 52 weeks (1 year)
==========================
First race (GP #1) - Spanish GP, 13 May 2007
Last race (GP #20) - Spanish GP, 27 April 2008
Driver GPs PP W FL Points [Change]
==================================================================
1 Lewis Hamilton 20 [+1] 7 5 2 2394.23 [+35.88] **
2 (3) Kimi Räikkönen 20 [+1] 3 7 6 2293.14 [+264.51] **
3 (2) Felipe Massa 19 [+1] 7 4 6 2272.45 [+58.72] **
4 Fernando Alonso 20 [+1] 2 4 3 1784.00 [+18.10] **
5 Nick Heidfeld 20 [+1] - - 1 856.66 [+15.27] **
6 Robert Kubica 19 [+1] 1 - - 805.46 [+43.00] **
7 Heikki Kovalainen 20 [+1] - - 2 710.94 [+0.20] **
8 Nico Rosberg 20 [+1] - - - 516.99 [+7.35] **
9 Jarno Trulli 20 [+1] - - - 453.15 [+25.14] **
10 Giancarlo Fisichella 19 [+1] - - - 432.21 [+19.62] **
11 (13) Mark Webber 20 [+1] - - - 415.24 [+41.78] **
12 (11) David Coulthard 20 [+1] - - - 411.09 [+19.93] **
13 (12) Takuma Sato 20 [+1] - - - 397.50 [+20.07] **
14 Rubens Barrichello 19 [+1] - - - 366.83 [+7.17] **
15 (17) Jenson Button 20 [+1] - - - 353.36 [+37.04] **
16 (15) Alexander Wurz 15 - - - 338.02 [-3.86]
17 (16) Anthony Davidson 20 [+1] - - - 326.52 [+1.08] **
18 Ralf Schumacher 16 - - - 280.93 [-3.17]
19 Adrian Sutil 20 [+1] - - - 277.78 [-0.38] **
20 Vitantonio Liuzzi 16 - - - 254.63 [-2.83]
21 Sebastian Vettel 12 [+1] - - - 191.70 [+0.63] **
22 (24) Kazuki Nakajima 5 [+1] - - - 144.73 [+34.03] **
26 (28) Timo Glock 4 [+1] - - - 65.84 [+23.79] **
27 (26) Sébastien Bourdais 4 [+1] - - - 64.34 [+3.81] **
28 (27) Nelson Piquet 4 [+1] - - - 53.27 [+3.67] **
Twenty nine drivers have driven in the last year (52 weeks).
Note that unlike after most events NO races have been removed from the
52-week data - compared to the last report, data for 20 rather than 19
races is included (after Bahrain it increased from 18 to 19).
--
Brian W Lawrence
Wantage,
Oxfordshire, UK
Brian_W_Lawrence@msn.com
adding the most recent GP (IE the change in table position).
GPs - number of GPs counted for each driver (from the last 100)
[-1] [+1], etc. - number of races deleted or added to driver's record
since the last event
PP - number of Pole Positions (in the last 100)
W - number of wins (in the last 100)
FL - number of Fastest Laps (in the last 100)
Points - these are 'my' points, allocated for many & various things, not
just wins, poles, f.laps, etc.
[Change] - the change in points as a result of the most recent race
** - current drivers
The Last 100 GPs (~5 years)
===========================
First race (GP #1) - British GP, 07 July 2002
Last race (GP #100) - Spanish GP, 27 April 2008
Driver GPs [Ch] PP W FL Points [Change]
===================================================================
1 Fernando Alonso 91 [+1] 17 19 11 5450.33 [-52.44] **
2 Kimi Räikkönen 99 15 17 25 5200.31 [+199.67] **
3 Michael Schumacher 79 [-1] 22 32 29 3998.97 [-114.02]
4 Felipe Massa 81 10 6 8 3790.71 [+32.77] **
5 Lewis Hamilton 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
6 Rubens Barrichello 98 8 7 10 2037.60 [-48.85] **
7 Giancarlo Fisichella 97 2 3 1 1972.84 [-12.25] **
8 Jenson Button 95 3 1 - 1785.58 [+4.23] **
9 Nick Heidfeld 94 1 - 1 1687.38 [-4.88] **
10 (11) Jarno Trulli 98 2 1 - 1505.89 [-2.53] **
11 (10) Juan Pablo Montoya 65 [-1] 6 6 6 1486.46 [-45.89]
12 Ralf Schumacher 87 [-1] 4 2 2 1362.07 [-35.13]
13 David Coulthard 99 - 1 1 1252.69 [-4.55] **
14 Mark Webber 99 - - - 1143.29 [+23.81] **
15 Takuma Sato 78 - - - 968.33 [+6.34] **
16 Robert Kubica 25 [+1] 1 - - 937.13 [+41.29] **
17 Nico Rosberg 39 [+1] - - 1 753.73 [+3.96] **
18 Heikki Kovalainen 21 [+1] - - 2 725.28 [+0.02] **
19 Vitantonio Liuzzi 39 - - - 559.54 [-7.36]
20 Christijan Albers 45 - - - 530.60 [-8.18]
21 Jacques Villeneuve 55 [-1] - - - 487.29 [-12.26]
22 Christian Klien 46 - - - 472.09 [-9.38]
23 Tiago Monteiro 36 - - - 461.80 [-7.83]
24 Alexander Wurz 17 - - - 374.51 [-4.57]
25 Scott Speed 28 - - - 356.33 [-4.81]
26 Anthony Davidson 24 [+1] - - - 343.11 [+0.64] **
27 Adrian Sutil 21 [+1] - - - 291.98 [-0.56] **
28 Pedro de la Rosa 17 [-1] - - 1 240.58 [-4.80]
29 Narain Karthikeyan 19 - - - 199.90 [-3.83]
30 Sebastian Vettel 12 [+1] - - - 191.70 [+0.63] **
31 Sakon Yamamoto 14 - - - 187.77 [-2.18]
32 Olivier Panis 40 [-1] - - - 169.30 [-8.15]
33 Robert Doornbos 11 - - - 145.90 [-2.28]
34 (37) Kazuki Nakajima 5 [+1] - - - 144.73 [+34.03] **
35 (34) Cristiano da Matta 27 - - - 127.53 [-5.93]
36 (35) Antonio Pizzonia 20 - - - 119.55 [-3.79]
37 (36) Zsolt Baumgartner 20 - - - 117.69 [-3.58]
38 (40) Timo Glock 8 [+1] - - - 104.85 [+22.76] **
39 (38) Gianmaria Bruni 18 - - - 94.54 [-2.80]
40 (39) Patrick Friesacher 11 - - - 83.73 [-1.72]
41 Giorgio Pantano 14 - - - 64.72 [-2.07]
42 (43) Sébastien Bourdais 4 [+1] - - - 64.34 [+3.81] **
43 (42) Franck Montagny 7 - - - 61.50 [-0.89]
44 (45) Nelson Piquet 4 [+1] - - - 53.27 [+3.67] **
45 (44) Heinz-Harald Frentzen 18 [-1] - - - 52.78 [-3.72]
46 Jos Verstappen 16 - - - 46.31 [-2.76]
47 Justin Wilson 16 - - - 41.72 [-2.42]
48 Ralph Firman 14 - - - 37.54 [-2.34]
49 Ricardo Zonta 5 - - - 35.98 [-0.91]
50 Yuji Ide 4 - - - 35.76 [-0.56]
51 Marc Gené 3 - - - 25.91 [-0.91]
52 Nicholas Kiesa 5 - - - 24.67 [-1.12]
53 (54) Markus Winkelhock 1 - - - 11.34 [-0.13]
54 (53) Eddie Irvine 8 [-1] - - - 9.66 [-1.96]
55 Mika Salo 8 [-1] - - - 8.45 [-1.83]
56 Alan McNish 7 [-1] - - - 4.40 [-1.24]
57 Alex Yoong 4 [-1] - - - 3.11 [-0.78]
58 Enrique Bernoldi 2 [-1] - - - 0.51 [-0.46]
Fifty eight drivers have driven in the last 100 GPs.
The last 156 weeks (3 years)
============================
First race (GP #1) - Spanish GP, 08 May 2005
Last race (GP #54) - Spanish GP, 27 April 2008
Driver GPs PP W FL Points [Change]
==================================================================
1 Fernando Alonso 54 [+1] 12 16 9 4754.00 [-28.80] **
2 Kimi Räikkönen 54 [+1] 12 15 19 4609.60 [+226.40] **
3 Felipe Massa 53 [+1] 10 6 8 3605.34 [+39.54] **
4 Lewis Hamilton 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
5 Michael Schumacher 34 5 8 10 2319.64 [-35.47]
6 Giancarlo Fisichella 53 [+1] 1 1 1 1614.87 [+1.16] **
7 Nick Heidfeld 49 [+1] 1 - 1 1463.51 [+5.45] **
8 Jenson Button 51 [+1] 2 1 - 1335.40 [+21.72] **
9 Rubens Barrichello 54 [+1] - - - 1055.45 [-3.93] **
10 Jarno Trulli 54 [+1] - - - 1025.58 [+15.84] **
11 Ralf Schumacher 50 1 - 1 980.79 [-14.54]
12 (13) Robert Kubica 25 [+1] 1 - - 937.13 [+41.29] **
13 (12) David Coulthard 54 [+1] - - - 913.56 [+11.93] **
14 (15) Mark Webber 54 [+1] - - - 911.75 [+33.54] **
15 (14) Juan Pablo Montoya 23 2 3 1 865.07 [-14.96]
16 Nico Rosberg 39 [+1] - - 1 753.73 [+3.96] **
17 Takuma Sato 49 [+1] - - - 747.41 [+14.60] **
18 Heikki Kovalainen 21 [+1] - - 2 725.28 [+0.02] **
19 Vitantonio Liuzzi 39 - - - 559.54 [-7.36]
20 Christijan Albers 42 - - - 507.34 [-7.66]
25 Anthony Davidson 21 [+1] - - - 340.72 [+0.90] **
27 Adrian Sutil 21 [+1] - - - 291.98 [-0.56] **
29 Sebastian Vettel 12 [+1] - - - 191.70 [+0.63] **
33 Kazuki Nakajima 5 [+1] - - - 144.73 [+34.03] **
34 (39) Timo Glock 4 [+1] - - - 65.84 [+23.79] **
35 (36) Sébastien Bourdais 4 [+1] - - - 64.34 [+3.81] **
38 Nelson Piquet 4 [+1] - - - 53.27 [+3.67] **
Forty one drivers have driven in the last three years (156 weeks).
The last 104 weeks (2 years)
============================
First race (GP #1) - European GP, 07 May 2006
Last race (GP #36) - Spanish GP, 27 April 2008
Driver GPs PP W FL Points [Change]
==================================================================
1 Fernando Alonso 36 [+1] 8 9 7 3434.32 [-5.09] **
2 Felipe Massa 35 [+1] 10 6 8 3345.74 [+44.20] **
3 Kimi Räikkönen 36 [+1] 7 8 9 3247.55 [+251.69] **
4 Lewis Hamilton 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
5 Michael Schumacher 15 3 7 7 1650.81 [-23.11]
6 Nick Heidfeld 36 [+1] - - 1 1190.29 [+10.69] **
7 Giancarlo Fisichella 35 [+1] - - - 1013.16 [+11.61] **
8 Robert Kubica 25 [+1] 1 - - 937.13 [+41.29] **
9 Jenson Button 36 [+1] - 1 - 828.21 [+30.57] **
10 (11) Jarno Trulli 36 [+1] - - - 736.38 [+21.24] **
11 (10) Heikki Kovalainen 21 [+1] - - 2 725.28 [+0.02] **
12 Nico Rosberg 36 [+1] - - - 711.58 [+4.63] **
13 Rubens Barrichello 35 [+1] - - - 705.76 [+2.49] **
14 David Coulthard 36 [+1] - - - 684.57 [+16.13] **
15 Mark Webber 36 [+1] - - - 618.49 [+38.95] **
16 Takuma Sato 35 [+1] - - - 580.97 [+17.54] **
17 Ralf Schumacher 32 - - - 547.24 [-6.83]
18 Vitantonio Liuzzi 32 - - - 488.22 [-6.05]
19 Alexander Wurz 16 - - - 346.86 [-3.97]
20 Anthony Davidson 21 [+1] - - - 340.72 [+0.90] **
23 Adrian Sutil 21 [+1] - - - 291.98 [-0.56] **
25 Sebastian Vettel 12 [+1] - - - 191.70 [+0.63] **
29 (31) Kazuki Nakajima 5 [+1] - - - 144.73 [+34.03] **
32 (36) Timo Glock 4 [+1] - - - 65.84 [+23.79] **
33 Sébastien Bourdais 4 [+1] - - - 64.34 [+3.81] **
36 (35) Nelson Piquet 4 [+1] - - - 53.27 [+3.67] **
Thirty eight drivers have driven in the last two years (104 weeks).
Note that unlike after most events NO races have been removed from the
104-week data - compared to the last report, data for 36 rather than 35
races is included.
The last 52 weeks (1 year)
==========================
First race (GP #1) - Spanish GP, 13 May 2007
Last race (GP #20) - Spanish GP, 27 April 2008
Driver GPs PP W FL Points [Change]
==================================================================
1 Lewis Hamilton 20 [+1] 7 5 2 2394.23 [+35.88] **
2 (3) Kimi Räikkönen 20 [+1] 3 7 6 2293.14 [+264.51] **
3 (2) Felipe Massa 19 [+1] 7 4 6 2272.45 [+58.72] **
4 Fernando Alonso 20 [+1] 2 4 3 1784.00 [+18.10] **
5 Nick Heidfeld 20 [+1] - - 1 856.66 [+15.27] **
6 Robert Kubica 19 [+1] 1 - - 805.46 [+43.00] **
7 Heikki Kovalainen 20 [+1] - - 2 710.94 [+0.20] **
8 Nico Rosberg 20 [+1] - - - 516.99 [+7.35] **
9 Jarno Trulli 20 [+1] - - - 453.15 [+25.14] **
10 Giancarlo Fisichella 19 [+1] - - - 432.21 [+19.62] **
11 (13) Mark Webber 20 [+1] - - - 415.24 [+41.78] **
12 (11) David Coulthard 20 [+1] - - - 411.09 [+19.93] **
13 (12) Takuma Sato 20 [+1] - - - 397.50 [+20.07] **
14 Rubens Barrichello 19 [+1] - - - 366.83 [+7.17] **
15 (17) Jenson Button 20 [+1] - - - 353.36 [+37.04] **
16 (15) Alexander Wurz 15 - - - 338.02 [-3.86]
17 (16) Anthony Davidson 20 [+1] - - - 326.52 [+1.08] **
18 Ralf Schumacher 16 - - - 280.93 [-3.17]
19 Adrian Sutil 20 [+1] - - - 277.78 [-0.38] **
20 Vitantonio Liuzzi 16 - - - 254.63 [-2.83]
21 Sebastian Vettel 12 [+1] - - - 191.70 [+0.63] **
22 (24) Kazuki Nakajima 5 [+1] - - - 144.73 [+34.03] **
26 (28) Timo Glock 4 [+1] - - - 65.84 [+23.79] **
27 (26) Sébastien Bourdais 4 [+1] - - - 64.34 [+3.81] **
28 (27) Nelson Piquet 4 [+1] - - - 53.27 [+3.67] **
Twenty nine drivers have driven in the last year (52 weeks).
Note that unlike after most events NO races have been removed from the
52-week data - compared to the last report, data for 20 rather than 19
races is included (after Bahrain it increased from 18 to 19).
--
Brian W Lawrence
Wantage,
Oxfordshire, UK
Brian_W_Lawrence@msn.com
Brian Lawrence wrote:
> Driver GPs [Ch] PP W FL Points [Change]
> ===================================================================
> 1 Fernando Alonso 91 [+1] 17 19 11 5450.33 [-52.44] **
> 2 Kimi Räikkönen 99 15 17 25 5200.31 [+199.67] **
> 3 Michael Schumacher 79 [-1] 22 32 29 3998.97 [-114.02]
> 4 Felipe Massa 81 10 6 8 3790.71 [+32.77] **
> 5 Lewis Hamilton 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
Brian, what aspect of your scoring causes Massa to score worse than
Lewis despite having a better weekend in every respect except Lewis
leading a single lap?
--
Pitwall is an online F1 manager game where you receive a team and need
to develop the team to get on the top podium position! Pitwall is
entirely free! No sh*t!
http://tinyurl.com/5y6ls3
> Driver GPs [Ch] PP W FL Points [Change]
> ===================================================================
> 1 Fernando Alonso 91 [+1] 17 19 11 5450.33 [-52.44] **
> 2 Kimi Räikkönen 99 15 17 25 5200.31 [+199.67] **
> 3 Michael Schumacher 79 [-1] 22 32 29 3998.97 [-114.02]
> 4 Felipe Massa 81 10 6 8 3790.71 [+32.77] **
> 5 Lewis Hamilton 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
Brian, what aspect of your scoring causes Massa to score worse than
Lewis despite having a better weekend in every respect except Lewis
leading a single lap?
--
Pitwall is an online F1 manager game where you receive a team and need
to develop the team to get on the top podium position! Pitwall is
entirely free! No sh*t!
http://tinyurl.com/5y6ls3
Bigbird scripsit:
> Brian Lawrence wrote:
>
>> Driver GPs [Ch] PP W FL Points [Change]
>> ===================================================================
>> 1 Fernando Alonso 91 [+1] 17 19 11 5450.33 [-52.44] **
>> 2 Kimi Räikkönen 99 15 17 25 5200.31 [+199.67] **
>> 3 Michael Schumacher 79 [-1] 22 32 29 3998.97 [-114.02]
>> 4 Felipe Massa 81 10 6 8 3790.71 [+32.77] **
>> 5 Lewis Hamilton 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
>
> Brian, what aspect of your scoring causes Massa to score worse than
> Lewis despite having a better weekend in every respect except Lewis
> leading a single lap?
As I understand idea of this type of rankings this is not effectively
comparison of performance this particular weekend between drivers but
comparison of performance of particular driver this year and year ago.
Last year Massa won pole, race and had fastest lap. Comparing to that
Massa was significantly worse this year while Hamilton only slightly
worse (second position and second fastest lap last year comparing to
third place this year).
m.
> Brian Lawrence wrote:
>
>> Driver GPs [Ch] PP W FL Points [Change]
>> ===================================================================
>> 1 Fernando Alonso 91 [+1] 17 19 11 5450.33 [-52.44] **
>> 2 Kimi Räikkönen 99 15 17 25 5200.31 [+199.67] **
>> 3 Michael Schumacher 79 [-1] 22 32 29 3998.97 [-114.02]
>> 4 Felipe Massa 81 10 6 8 3790.71 [+32.77] **
>> 5 Lewis Hamilton 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
>
> Brian, what aspect of your scoring causes Massa to score worse than
> Lewis despite having a better weekend in every respect except Lewis
> leading a single lap?
As I understand idea of this type of rankings this is not effectively
comparison of performance this particular weekend between drivers but
comparison of performance of particular driver this year and year ago.
Last year Massa won pole, race and had fastest lap. Comparing to that
Massa was significantly worse this year while Hamilton only slightly
worse (second position and second fastest lap last year comparing to
third place this year).
m.
"Mikolaj Machowski" <mikmach@wp.pl> wrote:
> Bigbird scripsit:
>> Brian Lawrence wrote:
>>
>>> Driver GPs [Ch] PP W FL Points [Change]
>>> ===================================================================
>>> 1 Fernando Alonso 91 [+1] 17 19 11 5450.33 [-52.44] **
>>> 2 Kimi Räikkönen 99 15 17 25 5200.31 [+199.67] **
>>> 3 Michael Schumacher 79 [-1] 22 32 29 3998.97 [-114.02]
>>> 4 Felipe Massa 81 10 6 8 3790.71 [+32.77] **
>>> 5 Lewis Hamilton 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
>>
>> Brian, what aspect of your scoring causes Massa to score worse than
>> Lewis despite having a better weekend in every respect except Lewis
>> leading a single lap?
>
> As I understand idea of this type of rankings this is not effectively
> comparison of performance this particular weekend between drivers but
> comparison of performance of particular driver this year and year ago.
>
> Last year Massa won pole, race and had fastest lap. Comparing to that
> Massa was significantly worse this year while Hamilton only slightly
> worse (second position and second fastest lap last year comparing to
> third place this year).
While what you wrote is true, the ranking above is based on the last 100
GPs. Felipe has 81 starts which are counted towards his points total.
He effectively loses points from the previous 80 starts due to the 'ageing'
of the data - older data counts for less. He has a lot more data to be
aged than Lewis with only 21 starts. In the 'last 3 years' table Massa
does slightly better than Hamilton, as he does in the '2 years' and 'last
year' ones.
In actual points accrued from the Spanish GP Massa scored 78 to Hamilton's
59.
--
Brian
> Bigbird scripsit:
>> Brian Lawrence wrote:
>>
>>> Driver GPs [Ch] PP W FL Points [Change]
>>> ===================================================================
>>> 1 Fernando Alonso 91 [+1] 17 19 11 5450.33 [-52.44] **
>>> 2 Kimi Räikkönen 99 15 17 25 5200.31 [+199.67] **
>>> 3 Michael Schumacher 79 [-1] 22 32 29 3998.97 [-114.02]
>>> 4 Felipe Massa 81 10 6 8 3790.71 [+32.77] **
>>> 5 Lewis Hamilton 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
>>
>> Brian, what aspect of your scoring causes Massa to score worse than
>> Lewis despite having a better weekend in every respect except Lewis
>> leading a single lap?
>
> As I understand idea of this type of rankings this is not effectively
> comparison of performance this particular weekend between drivers but
> comparison of performance of particular driver this year and year ago.
>
> Last year Massa won pole, race and had fastest lap. Comparing to that
> Massa was significantly worse this year while Hamilton only slightly
> worse (second position and second fastest lap last year comparing to
> third place this year).
While what you wrote is true, the ranking above is based on the last 100
GPs. Felipe has 81 starts which are counted towards his points total.
He effectively loses points from the previous 80 starts due to the 'ageing'
of the data - older data counts for less. He has a lot more data to be
aged than Lewis with only 21 starts. In the 'last 3 years' table Massa
does slightly better than Hamilton, as he does in the '2 years' and 'last
year' ones.
In actual points accrued from the Spanish GP Massa scored 78 to Hamilton's
59.
--
Brian
Brian Lawrence wrote:
> "Mikolaj Machowski" <mikmach@wp.pl> wrote:
>
> > Bigbird scripsit:
> > > Brian Lawrence wrote:
> > >
> >>> Driver GPs [Ch] PP W FL Points [Change]
> > > > ================================================================
> > > > === 1 Fernando Alonso 91 [+1] 17 19 11 5450.33
> > > > [-52.44] ** 2 Kimi Räikkönen 99 15 17 25
> > > > 5200.31 [+199.67] ** 3 Michael Schumacher 79 [-1] 22
> > > > 32 29 3998.97 [-114.02] 4 Felipe Massa 81
> > > > 10 6 8 3790.71 [+32.77] ** 5 Lewis Hamilton
> > > > 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
> > >
> > > Brian, what aspect of your scoring causes Massa to score worse
> > > than Lewis despite having a better weekend in every respect
> > > except Lewis leading a single lap?
> >
> > As I understand idea of this type of rankings this is not
> > effectively comparison of performance this particular weekend
> > between drivers but comparison of performance of particular driver
> > this year and year ago.
> >
> > Last year Massa won pole, race and had fastest lap. Comparing to
> > that Massa was significantly worse this year while Hamilton only
> > slightly worse (second position and second fastest lap last year
> > comparing to third place this year).
>
> While what you wrote is true, the ranking above is based on the last
> 100 GPs. Felipe has 81 starts which are counted towards his points
> total. He effectively loses points from the previous 80 starts due
> to the 'ageing' of the data - older data counts for less. He has a
> lot more data to be aged than Lewis with only 21 starts. In the 'last
> 3 years' table Massa does slightly better than Hamilton, as he does
> in the '2 years' and 'last year' ones.
>
> In actual points accrued from the Spanish GP Massa scored 78 to
> Hamilton's 59.
Ah, I had forgotten about the ageing process. That's alzheimer's for
you.
--
Pitwall is an online F1 manager game where you receive a team and need
to develop the team to get on the top podium position! Pitwall is
entirely free! No sh*t!
http://tinyurl.com/5y6ls3
> "Mikolaj Machowski" <mikmach@wp.pl> wrote:
>
> > Bigbird scripsit:
> > > Brian Lawrence wrote:
> > >
> >>> Driver GPs [Ch] PP W FL Points [Change]
> > > > ================================================================
> > > > === 1 Fernando Alonso 91 [+1] 17 19 11 5450.33
> > > > [-52.44] ** 2 Kimi Räikkönen 99 15 17 25
> > > > 5200.31 [+199.67] ** 3 Michael Schumacher 79 [-1] 22
> > > > 32 29 3998.97 [-114.02] 4 Felipe Massa 81
> > > > 10 6 8 3790.71 [+32.77] ** 5 Lewis Hamilton
> > > > 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
> > >
> > > Brian, what aspect of your scoring causes Massa to score worse
> > > than Lewis despite having a better weekend in every respect
> > > except Lewis leading a single lap?
> >
> > As I understand idea of this type of rankings this is not
> > effectively comparison of performance this particular weekend
> > between drivers but comparison of performance of particular driver
> > this year and year ago.
> >
> > Last year Massa won pole, race and had fastest lap. Comparing to
> > that Massa was significantly worse this year while Hamilton only
> > slightly worse (second position and second fastest lap last year
> > comparing to third place this year).
>
> While what you wrote is true, the ranking above is based on the last
> 100 GPs. Felipe has 81 starts which are counted towards his points
> total. He effectively loses points from the previous 80 starts due
> to the 'ageing' of the data - older data counts for less. He has a
> lot more data to be aged than Lewis with only 21 starts. In the 'last
> 3 years' table Massa does slightly better than Hamilton, as he does
> in the '2 years' and 'last year' ones.
>
> In actual points accrued from the Spanish GP Massa scored 78 to
> Hamilton's 59.
Ah, I had forgotten about the ageing process. That's alzheimer's for
you.
--
Pitwall is an online F1 manager game where you receive a team and need
to develop the team to get on the top podium position! Pitwall is
entirely free! No sh*t!
http://tinyurl.com/5y6ls3
"Bigbird" <Bigbird.UsenetREMOVTHS@Gmail.com> wrote in message
news:xn0fpnyx64iqjfo00a@news.individual.net...
> Brian Lawrence wrote:
>
>> "Mikolaj Machowski" <mikmach@wp.pl> wrote:
>>
>> > Bigbird scripsit:
>> > > Brian Lawrence wrote:
>> > >
>> >>> Driver GPs [Ch] PP W FL Points [Change]
>> > > > ================================================================
>> > > > === 1 Fernando Alonso 91 [+1] 17 19 11 5450.33
>> > > > [-52.44] ** 2 Kimi Räikkönen 99 15 17 25
>> > > > 5200.31 [+199.67] ** 3 Michael Schumacher 79 [-1] 22
>> > > > 32 29 3998.97 [-114.02] 4 Felipe Massa 81
>> > > > 10 6 8 3790.71 [+32.77] ** 5 Lewis Hamilton
>> > > > 21 [+1] 7 5 2 2440.64 [+35.31] **
>> > >
>> > > Brian, what aspect of your scoring causes Massa to score worse
>> > > than Lewis despite having a better weekend in every respect
>> > > except Lewis leading a single lap?
>> >
>> > As I understand idea of this type of rankings this is not
>> > effectively comparison of performance this particular weekend
>> > between drivers but comparison of performance of particular driver
>> > this year and year ago.
>> >
>> > Last year Massa won pole, race and had fastest lap. Comparing to
>> > that Massa was significantly worse this year while Hamilton only
>> > slightly worse (second position and second fastest lap last year
>> > comparing to third place this year).
>>
>> While what you wrote is true, the ranking above is based on the last
>> 100 GPs. Felipe has 81 starts which are counted towards his points
>> total. He effectively loses points from the previous 80 starts due
>> to the 'ageing' of the data - older data counts for less. He has a
>> lot more data to be aged than Lewis with only 21 starts. In the 'last
>> 3 years' table Massa does slightly better than Hamilton, as he does
>> in the '2 years' and 'last year' ones.
>>
>> In actual points accrued from the Spanish GP Massa scored 78 to
>> Hamilton's 59.
>
> Ah, I had forgotten about the ageing process. That's alzheimer's for
> you.
>
> --
Glad you did forget, as we got an explanation. Which I for one needed!!!
AC
"AC" <xxxx@xxxx.xxx> wrote:
>>> > > Brian, what aspect of your scoring causes Massa to score worse
>>> > > than Lewis despite having a better weekend in every respect
>>> > > except Lewis leading a single lap?
>>> >
>>> > As I understand idea of this type of rankings this is not
>>> > effectively comparison of performance this particular weekend
>>> > between drivers but comparison of performance of particular driver
>>> > this year and year ago.
>>> >
>>> > Last year Massa won pole, race and had fastest lap. Comparing to
>>> > that Massa was significantly worse this year while Hamilton only
>>> > slightly worse (second position and second fastest lap last year
>>> > comparing to third place this year).
>>>
>>> While what you wrote is true, the ranking above is based on the last
>>> 100 GPs. Felipe has 81 starts which are counted towards his points
>>> total. He effectively loses points from the previous 80 starts due
>>> to the 'ageing' of the data - older data counts for less. He has a
>>> lot more data to be aged than Lewis with only 21 starts. In the 'last
>>> 3 years' table Massa does slightly better than Hamilton, as he does
>>> in the '2 years' and 'last year' ones.
>>>
>>> In actual points accrued from the Spanish GP Massa scored 78 to
>>> Hamilton's 59.
>>
>> Ah, I had forgotten about the ageing process. That's alzheimer's for
>> you.
> Glad you did forget, as we got an explanation. Which I for one needed!!!
Sorry, I need to rewrite the intro to make it more understandable :-)
--
Brian
>>> > > Brian, what aspect of your scoring causes Massa to score worse
>>> > > than Lewis despite having a better weekend in every respect
>>> > > except Lewis leading a single lap?
>>> >
>>> > As I understand idea of this type of rankings this is not
>>> > effectively comparison of performance this particular weekend
>>> > between drivers but comparison of performance of particular driver
>>> > this year and year ago.
>>> >
>>> > Last year Massa won pole, race and had fastest lap. Comparing to
>>> > that Massa was significantly worse this year while Hamilton only
>>> > slightly worse (second position and second fastest lap last year
>>> > comparing to third place this year).
>>>
>>> While what you wrote is true, the ranking above is based on the last
>>> 100 GPs. Felipe has 81 starts which are counted towards his points
>>> total. He effectively loses points from the previous 80 starts due
>>> to the 'ageing' of the data - older data counts for less. He has a
>>> lot more data to be aged than Lewis with only 21 starts. In the 'last
>>> 3 years' table Massa does slightly better than Hamilton, as he does
>>> in the '2 years' and 'last year' ones.
>>>
>>> In actual points accrued from the Spanish GP Massa scored 78 to
>>> Hamilton's 59.
>>
>> Ah, I had forgotten about the ageing process. That's alzheimer's for
>> you.
> Glad you did forget, as we got an explanation. Which I for one needed!!!
Sorry, I need to rewrite the intro to make it more understandable :-)
--
Brian
I've been posting driver rankings for about a year. They are based on my own
allocation of points for driver performance. I award points for winning,
finishing the race, setting fastest lap, pole position, km. in the lead, km.
raced, etc. The number of points were chosen by me but are awarded consistently
without bias to any driver.
In order to produce the rankings I needed to gather data for the last five
years, but in doing so a lot of the earlier data was easily gathered together,
partly with a view to looking at possible rankings in days long gone. This is
still a 'work in progress', but I have been able to complete the data for all
of the highest ranked drivers. Using my points system it is sometimes possible
to score as many as 300 points in a race.
Rather than simply posting the drivers with the most points in their career I
have instead calculated the average points per race, which I feel reflects a
driver's consistency over his career.
The previous driver rankings discount any races which a driver failed to start
as well as races where he was disqualified. This means that, for example, points
for qualifying in pole position are discarded if the driver subsequently fails
to start or is disqualified. For this reason the number of starts is often
different to the true number of GPs given in most statistical sources.
In addition I have chosen to ignore the ten Indianapolis 500 races which
formed part of the World Championship from 1950-60 (I made one exception by
including Alberto Ascari's 1952 attempt at Indy).
Lewis Hamilton's meteoric start to his F1 career meant that he was already
ranked seventh on the all-time list. Clearly, drivers who have performed very
well over a very brief career should be ranked lower than those who had a
substantially longer one. It was suggested to me that drivers who had not
completed three seasons of F1 should be excluded, but that would be going too
far. It might have been reasonable in the 1950s when three seasons would have
comprised maybe 25 GPs, but today three seasons could easily include 54 races,
and only 83 drivers have ever passed that many F1 starts. I therefore decided
to treat drivers with less than 30 starts as 'new' drivers and reduce their
race average accordingly. So, drivers with less than 10 starts have their
average reduced to only 25% of their real average; those with less than 20
starts have their averages reduced to 50%; and those with less than 30 starts
receive 75% of their full average.
Current drivers are indicated by a '*'. Their averages are volatile and may
fluctuate wildly.
Drivers with less than 30 starts are indicated by '%1', '%2' or '%3' which
shows those with 25%, 50% and 75% averages respectively.
Laps Laps Total Race
GPs PP W FL Led Raced Points Avg. WDC
====================================================================
1. Juan Manuel Fangio 51 30 23 23 1348 3031 9707 190.33 5
2. Alberto Ascari 32 14 13 13 925 1690 5466 170.81 2
3. Jim Clark 72 33 25 28 1943 3923 10622 147.53 2
4. Michael Schumacher 245 67 91 76 4996 13754 31339 127.91 7
5. Ayrton Senna 158 63 41 20 2967 8054 18243 115.46 3
6. Stirling Moss 64 16 16 18 1181 3304 6666 104.15 0
7. Giuseppe Farina 33 5 5 5 338 1827 3427 103.83 1
8. Jackie Stewart 99 17 27 15 1921 5216 9875 99.75 3
9. Alain Prost 198 33 51 41 2680 10485 19547 98.72 4
10. Lewis Hamilton %3 * 21 7 5 2 372 1273 2566 91.64 0
11. Damon Hill 114 20 22 19 1358 5778 9747 85.50 1
12. Fernando Alonso * 107 17 19 11 1159 5974 8941 83.56 2
13. Nigel Mansell 185 32 31 29 2077 8705 13831 74.76 1
14. Kimi Räikkönen * 124 15 17 26 944 6226 9104 73.42 1
15. Mike Hawthorn 44 4 3 6 223 2341 3165 71.92 1
16. Mika Häkkinen 160 25 20 25 1479 7654 11282 70.51 2
17. Juan Pablo Montoya 91 13 7 12 595 4726 6219 68.34 0
18. Niki Lauda 166 24 25 24 1592 8007 11159 67.22 3
19. Nelson Piquet 199 24 23 23 1566 9704 12786 64.25 3
20. Jack Brabham 125 13 14 12 818 6109 7765 62.12 3
21. Phil Hill 48 6 3 6 171 2413 2958 61.62 1
22. Froilan González %3 26 3 2 6 272 1273 2058 59.36 0
23. James Hunt 92 14 10 8 634 3890 5385 58.53 1
24. Tony Brooks 38 3 6 3 133 1601 2216 58.30 0
25. Jochen Rindt 60 10 6 3 387 2516 3384 56.40 1
26. Felipe Massa * 90 10 6 8 520 4922 5048 56.09 0
27. Jacky Ickx 115 13 8 14 529 5646 6174 53.69 0
28. Jody Scheckter 111 3 10 5 675 6034 5773 52.01 1
29. Ronnie Peterson 122 14 10 9 704 5686 6280 51.47 0
30. Carlos Reutemann 144 6 12 6 645 6943 7322 50.84 0
31. Graham Hill 176 13 14 10 1102 8759 8888 50.50 2
32. Denny Hulme 112 1 8 9 435 6231 5642 50.38 1
33. Mario Andretti 126 18 12 10 798 5194 6330 50.24 1
34. David Coulthard * 231 12 13 18 896 11702 11595 50.19 0
35. Gilles Villeneuve 65 2 6 8 534 3186 3220 49.55 0
36. Alan Jones 116 6 12 13 589 5565 5672 48.90 1
37. Richie Ginther 52 0 1 3 116 2930 2518 48.42 0
38. John Surtees 111 8 6 11 308 4977 5262 47.41 1
39. Gerhard Berger 209 12 10 21 692 9783 9873 47.24 0
40. Emerson Fittipaldi 144 6 14 6 478 7285 6662 46.26 2
41. René Arnoux 149 18 7 12 506 6613 6837 45.89 0
42. Clay Regazzoni 132 5 5 15 360 6596 6034 45.71 0
43. Peter Revson 30 1 2 0 63 1565 1354 45.14 0
44. Rubens Barrichello * 250 13 9 15 734 12658 11250 45.00 0
45. Jacques Villeneuve 161 12 11 9 627 8180 7211 44.79 1
46. Dan Gurney 86 3 4 6 200 3673 3756 43.68 0
47. Peter Collins 32 0 3 0 127 1400 1372 42.87 0
48. Didier Pironi 69 3 3 5 295 3352 2850 41.31 0
49. François Cevert 46 0 1 2 129 2369 1892 41.14 0
50. Lorenzo Bandini 42 1 1 2 143 2260 1702 40.52 0
Keke Rosberg is the only WDC who doesn't make the top 50. He ranks in 55th
place - just below Ralf Schumacher.
If there ever was such a thing as a normal F1 career it may well have begun
with one or two seasons in a poor car followed by several seasons in a good
car, with perhaps a couple of seasons in a lesser car before retirement.
Recently, several drivers are debuting in leading teams which allows them
(like Hamilton) to leap to the upper reaches of the table.
--
Brian W Lawrence
Wantage,
Oxfordshire, UK
Brian_W_Lawrence@msn.com
allocation of points for driver performance. I award points for winning,
finishing the race, setting fastest lap, pole position, km. in the lead, km.
raced, etc. The number of points were chosen by me but are awarded consistently
without bias to any driver.
In order to produce the rankings I needed to gather data for the last five
years, but in doing so a lot of the earlier data was easily gathered together,
partly with a view to looking at possible rankings in days long gone. This is
still a 'work in progress', but I have been able to complete the data for all
of the highest ranked drivers. Using my points system it is sometimes possible
to score as many as 300 points in a race.
Rather than simply posting the drivers with the most points in their career I
have instead calculated the average points per race, which I feel reflects a
driver's consistency over his career.
The previous driver rankings discount any races which a driver failed to start
as well as races where he was disqualified. This means that, for example, points
for qualifying in pole position are discarded if the driver subsequently fails
to start or is disqualified. For this reason the number of starts is often
different to the true number of GPs given in most statistical sources.
In addition I have chosen to ignore the ten Indianapolis 500 races which
formed part of the World Championship from 1950-60 (I made one exception by
including Alberto Ascari's 1952 attempt at Indy).
Lewis Hamilton's meteoric start to his F1 career meant that he was already
ranked seventh on the all-time list. Clearly, drivers who have performed very
well over a very brief career should be ranked lower than those who had a
substantially longer one. It was suggested to me that drivers who had not
completed three seasons of F1 should be excluded, but that would be going too
far. It might have been reasonable in the 1950s when three seasons would have
comprised maybe 25 GPs, but today three seasons could easily include 54 races,
and only 83 drivers have ever passed that many F1 starts. I therefore decided
to treat drivers with less than 30 starts as 'new' drivers and reduce their
race average accordingly. So, drivers with less than 10 starts have their
average reduced to only 25% of their real average; those with less than 20
starts have their averages reduced to 50%; and those with less than 30 starts
receive 75% of their full average.
Current drivers are indicated by a '*'. Their averages are volatile and may
fluctuate wildly.
Drivers with less than 30 starts are indicated by '%1', '%2' or '%3' which
shows those with 25%, 50% and 75% averages respectively.
Laps Laps Total Race
GPs PP W FL Led Raced Points Avg. WDC
====================================================================
1. Juan Manuel Fangio 51 30 23 23 1348 3031 9707 190.33 5
2. Alberto Ascari 32 14 13 13 925 1690 5466 170.81 2
3. Jim Clark 72 33 25 28 1943 3923 10622 147.53 2
4. Michael Schumacher 245 67 91 76 4996 13754 31339 127.91 7
5. Ayrton Senna 158 63 41 20 2967 8054 18243 115.46 3
6. Stirling Moss 64 16 16 18 1181 3304 6666 104.15 0
7. Giuseppe Farina 33 5 5 5 338 1827 3427 103.83 1
8. Jackie Stewart 99 17 27 15 1921 5216 9875 99.75 3
9. Alain Prost 198 33 51 41 2680 10485 19547 98.72 4
10. Lewis Hamilton %3 * 21 7 5 2 372 1273 2566 91.64 0
11. Damon Hill 114 20 22 19 1358 5778 9747 85.50 1
12. Fernando Alonso * 107 17 19 11 1159 5974 8941 83.56 2
13. Nigel Mansell 185 32 31 29 2077 8705 13831 74.76 1
14. Kimi Räikkönen * 124 15 17 26 944 6226 9104 73.42 1
15. Mike Hawthorn 44 4 3 6 223 2341 3165 71.92 1
16. Mika Häkkinen 160 25 20 25 1479 7654 11282 70.51 2
17. Juan Pablo Montoya 91 13 7 12 595 4726 6219 68.34 0
18. Niki Lauda 166 24 25 24 1592 8007 11159 67.22 3
19. Nelson Piquet 199 24 23 23 1566 9704 12786 64.25 3
20. Jack Brabham 125 13 14 12 818 6109 7765 62.12 3
21. Phil Hill 48 6 3 6 171 2413 2958 61.62 1
22. Froilan González %3 26 3 2 6 272 1273 2058 59.36 0
23. James Hunt 92 14 10 8 634 3890 5385 58.53 1
24. Tony Brooks 38 3 6 3 133 1601 2216 58.30 0
25. Jochen Rindt 60 10 6 3 387 2516 3384 56.40 1
26. Felipe Massa * 90 10 6 8 520 4922 5048 56.09 0
27. Jacky Ickx 115 13 8 14 529 5646 6174 53.69 0
28. Jody Scheckter 111 3 10 5 675 6034 5773 52.01 1
29. Ronnie Peterson 122 14 10 9 704 5686 6280 51.47 0
30. Carlos Reutemann 144 6 12 6 645 6943 7322 50.84 0
31. Graham Hill 176 13 14 10 1102 8759 8888 50.50 2
32. Denny Hulme 112 1 8 9 435 6231 5642 50.38 1
33. Mario Andretti 126 18 12 10 798 5194 6330 50.24 1
34. David Coulthard * 231 12 13 18 896 11702 11595 50.19 0
35. Gilles Villeneuve 65 2 6 8 534 3186 3220 49.55 0
36. Alan Jones 116 6 12 13 589 5565 5672 48.90 1
37. Richie Ginther 52 0 1 3 116 2930 2518 48.42 0
38. John Surtees 111 8 6 11 308 4977 5262 47.41 1
39. Gerhard Berger 209 12 10 21 692 9783 9873 47.24 0
40. Emerson Fittipaldi 144 6 14 6 478 7285 6662 46.26 2
41. René Arnoux 149 18 7 12 506 6613 6837 45.89 0
42. Clay Regazzoni 132 5 5 15 360 6596 6034 45.71 0
43. Peter Revson 30 1 2 0 63 1565 1354 45.14 0
44. Rubens Barrichello * 250 13 9 15 734 12658 11250 45.00 0
45. Jacques Villeneuve 161 12 11 9 627 8180 7211 44.79 1
46. Dan Gurney 86 3 4 6 200 3673 3756 43.68 0
47. Peter Collins 32 0 3 0 127 1400 1372 42.87 0
48. Didier Pironi 69 3 3 5 295 3352 2850 41.31 0
49. François Cevert 46 0 1 2 129 2369 1892 41.14 0
50. Lorenzo Bandini 42 1 1 2 143 2260 1702 40.52 0
Keke Rosberg is the only WDC who doesn't make the top 50. He ranks in 55th
place - just below Ralf Schumacher.
If there ever was such a thing as a normal F1 career it may well have begun
with one or two seasons in a poor car followed by several seasons in a good
car, with perhaps a couple of seasons in a lesser car before retirement.
Recently, several drivers are debuting in leading teams which allows them
(like Hamilton) to leap to the upper reaches of the table.
--
Brian W Lawrence
Wantage,
Oxfordshire, UK
Brian_W_Lawrence@msn.com
Brian Lawrence wrote:
> It was suggested
> to me that drivers who had not completed three seasons of F1 should
> be excluded, but that would be going too far. It might have been
> reasonable in the 1950s when three seasons would have comprised maybe
> 25 GPs, but today three seasons could easily include 54 races, and
> only 83 drivers have ever passed that many F1 starts.
I think that is why seasons rather than starts was suggested.
--
Pitwall is an online F1 manager game where you receive a team and need
to develop the team to get on the top podium position! Pitwall is
entirely free! No sh*t!
http://tinyurl.com/5y6ls3
> It was suggested
> to me that drivers who had not completed three seasons of F1 should
> be excluded, but that would be going too far. It might have been
> reasonable in the 1950s when three seasons would have comprised maybe
> 25 GPs, but today three seasons could easily include 54 races, and
> only 83 drivers have ever passed that many F1 starts.
I think that is why seasons rather than starts was suggested.
--
Pitwall is an online F1 manager game where you receive a team and need
to develop the team to get on the top podium position! Pitwall is
entirely free! No sh*t!
http://tinyurl.com/5y6ls3
"Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote
> I've ---- This is
> still a 'work in progress', --
> Rather than simply posting the drivers with the most points in their
career I
> have instead calculated the average points per race, which I feel reflects
a
> driver's consistency over his career.
In my humble opinion,
This is a real significant and major list,
a major project of love.
(of course, my eyes, and all our eyes see more
easily what names are there, rather than what missing!?!)
I am not seeing a single name on this list that
is not "significant" in their contributions to F1.
(weither top "50"?, certainly debatable, but still
quite "significant" and worthy of a top 'x#'.)
Thank you Brian.
> It was suggested to me that drivers who had not
> completed three seasons of F1 should be excluded, but that would be going
too
> far. It might have been reasonable in the 1950s when three seasons would
have
> comprised maybe 25 GPs, but today three seasons could easily include 54
races,
> and only 83 drivers have ever passed that many F1 starts.
> I therefore decided
> to treat drivers with less than 30 starts as 'new' drivers and reduce
their
> race average accordingly. So, drivers with less than 10 starts have their
> average reduced to only 25% of their real average; those with less than 20
> starts have their averages reduced to 50%; and those with less than 30
starts
> receive 75% of their full average.
(Semi-tease, but perhaps somewhat a real point,)
Your above paragraph, is an "interesting" way to
massage out, the obvious contentious "eye catchers"!!
(I am agreeing, the Parkes, Taruffi, and Scarfiotti - not belong)
But using that number (starts v. years) ((as in bigbird's point))
does knock out von Tripps. He did reportedly 27 starts,
but was a significant driver for 5 years in F1
(sometimes in his era, only 7 GPs in a year).
Posthumiously "second" in 1961 WDC.
Possible solutions:
1. Give full credit to anyone starting the number of
GPs that would equall 3 years of their 'era'.
2, If stick to a set number of starts, change to:
> "So, drivers with less than 8 starts have their
> average reduced to only 25% of their real average;
> those with less than 16 starts have their averages reduced to 50%;
> and those with less than 24 starts receive 75% of their full average."
(justifiable in that the numbers 10, 20, 30 are just
abstracts of our 'arabic number' system, where as
8 used to be more often a full season, and recently
is often a half season)
I also note, this "massaging" will in a couple of races
'suddenly' end, and Hamilton may 'bounce' way up
(or not?).
> Keke Rosberg is the only WDC who doesn't make the top 50.
> He ranks in 55th place - just below Ralf Schumacher.
1. Maybe, just "oh well".
(year he won WDC, only won one GP.)
2. Maybe, argument to just change to "top 60"
(please do not get me wrong, I've never been a
Ralf fan, but on other hand he did well enough
to get hired at Williams at right time, and won 6 GPs)
3. Or maybe, back to my earlier idea to somehow
scratch off the 'obviously uncompetitive' car years.
(noting Keke started in ?what 1979? but not very
significant until 1982).
Again, thanks for your contribution,
and for listening to ideas.
> I've ---- This is
> still a 'work in progress', --
> Rather than simply posting the drivers with the most points in their
career I
> have instead calculated the average points per race, which I feel reflects
a
> driver's consistency over his career.
In my humble opinion,
This is a real significant and major list,
a major project of love.
(of course, my eyes, and all our eyes see more
easily what names are there, rather than what missing!?!)
I am not seeing a single name on this list that
is not "significant" in their contributions to F1.
(weither top "50"?, certainly debatable, but still
quite "significant" and worthy of a top 'x#'.)
Thank you Brian.
> It was suggested to me that drivers who had not
> completed three seasons of F1 should be excluded, but that would be going
too
> far. It might have been reasonable in the 1950s when three seasons would
have
> comprised maybe 25 GPs, but today three seasons could easily include 54
races,
> and only 83 drivers have ever passed that many F1 starts.
> I therefore decided
> to treat drivers with less than 30 starts as 'new' drivers and reduce
their
> race average accordingly. So, drivers with less than 10 starts have their
> average reduced to only 25% of their real average; those with less than 20
> starts have their averages reduced to 50%; and those with less than 30
starts
> receive 75% of their full average.
(Semi-tease, but perhaps somewhat a real point,)
Your above paragraph, is an "interesting" way to
massage out, the obvious contentious "eye catchers"!!
(I am agreeing, the Parkes, Taruffi, and Scarfiotti - not belong)
But using that number (starts v. years) ((as in bigbird's point))
does knock out von Tripps. He did reportedly 27 starts,
but was a significant driver for 5 years in F1
(sometimes in his era, only 7 GPs in a year).
Posthumiously "second" in 1961 WDC.
Possible solutions:
1. Give full credit to anyone starting the number of
GPs that would equall 3 years of their 'era'.
2, If stick to a set number of starts, change to:
> "So, drivers with less than 8 starts have their
> average reduced to only 25% of their real average;
> those with less than 16 starts have their averages reduced to 50%;
> and those with less than 24 starts receive 75% of their full average."
(justifiable in that the numbers 10, 20, 30 are just
abstracts of our 'arabic number' system, where as
8 used to be more often a full season, and recently
is often a half season)
I also note, this "massaging" will in a couple of races
'suddenly' end, and Hamilton may 'bounce' way up
(or not?).
> Keke Rosberg is the only WDC who doesn't make the top 50.
> He ranks in 55th place - just below Ralf Schumacher.
1. Maybe, just "oh well".
(year he won WDC, only won one GP.)
2. Maybe, argument to just change to "top 60"
(please do not get me wrong, I've never been a
Ralf fan, but on other hand he did well enough
to get hired at Williams at right time, and won 6 GPs)
3. Or maybe, back to my earlier idea to somehow
scratch off the 'obviously uncompetitive' car years.
(noting Keke started in ?what 1979? but not very
significant until 1982).
Again, thanks for your contribution,
and for listening to ideas.
"a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote
>> I've ---- This is
>> still a 'work in progress', --
>> Rather than simply posting the drivers with the most points in their
> career I
>> have instead calculated the average points per race, which I feel reflects
> a
>> driver's consistency over his career.
>
> In my humble opinion,
> This is a real significant and major list,
> a major project of love.
Too kind, but thanks.
> (of course, my eyes, and all our eyes see more
> easily what names are there, rather than what missing!?!)
>
> I am not seeing a single name on this list that
> is not "significant" in their contributions to F1.
> (weither top "50"?, certainly debatable, but still
> quite "significant" and worthy of a top 'x#'.)
>
> Thank you Brian.
>
>> It was suggested to me that drivers who had not
>> completed three seasons of F1 should be excluded, but that would be going
> too
>> far. It might have been reasonable in the 1950s when three seasons would
> have
>> comprised maybe 25 GPs, but today three seasons could easily include 54
> races,
>> and only 83 drivers have ever passed that many F1 starts.
>
>> I therefore decided
>> to treat drivers with less than 30 starts as 'new' drivers and reduce
> their
>> race average accordingly. So, drivers with less than 10 starts have their
>> average reduced to only 25% of their real average; those with less than 20
>> starts have their averages reduced to 50%; and those with less than 30
> starts
>> receive 75% of their full average.
>
> (Semi-tease, but perhaps somewhat a real point,)
> Your above paragraph, is an "interesting" way to
> massage out, the obvious contentious "eye catchers"!!
> (I am agreeing, the Parkes, Taruffi, and Scarfiotti - not belong)
>
> But using that number (starts v. years) ((as in bigbird's point))
> does knock out von Tripps. He did reportedly 27 starts,
> but was a significant driver for 5 years in F1
> (sometimes in his era, only 7 GPs in a year).
> Posthumiously "second" in 1961 WDC.
Yes, I was disappointed at that, and also at demoting Gonzalez too.
> Possible solutions:
> 1. Give full credit to anyone starting the number of
> GPs that would equall 3 years of their 'era'.
Yes I did plan to do that, but it seemed simpler to stick to a uniform
30. However, I'd only need to work it out once for just a few drivers,
so it wouldn't be much work.
> 2, If stick to a set number of starts, change to:
>> "So, drivers with less than 8 starts have their
>> average reduced to only 25% of their real average;
>> those with less than 16 starts have their averages reduced to 50%;
>> and those with less than 24 starts receive 75% of their full average."
> (justifiable in that the numbers 10, 20, 30 are just
> abstracts of our 'arabic number' system, where as
> 8 used to be more often a full season, and recently
> is often a half season)
>
> I also note, this "massaging" will in a couple of races
> 'suddenly' end, and Hamilton may 'bounce' way up
> (or not?).
>
>> Keke Rosberg is the only WDC who doesn't make the top 50.
>> He ranks in 55th place - just below Ralf Schumacher.
>
> 1. Maybe, just "oh well".
> (year he won WDC, only won one GP.)
> 2. Maybe, argument to just change to "top 60"
> (please do not get me wrong, I've never been a
> Ralf fan, but on other hand he did well enough
> to get hired at Williams at right time, and won 6 GPs)
> 3. Or maybe, back to my earlier idea to somehow
> scratch off the 'obviously uncompetitive' car years.
> (noting Keke started in ?what 1979? but not very
> significant until 1982).
>
> Again, thanks for your contribution,
> and for listening to ideas.
Ideas are always worth listening to.
And sometimes even the trolls have their uses - they make you think
about things in different ways. :-)
> "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote
>> I've ---- This is
>> still a 'work in progress', --
>> Rather than simply posting the drivers with the most points in their
> career I
>> have instead calculated the average points per race, which I feel reflects
> a
>> driver's consistency over his career.
>
> In my humble opinion,
> This is a real significant and major list,
> a major project of love.
Too kind, but thanks.
> (of course, my eyes, and all our eyes see more
> easily what names are there, rather than what missing!?!)
>
> I am not seeing a single name on this list that
> is not "significant" in their contributions to F1.
> (weither top "50"?, certainly debatable, but still
> quite "significant" and worthy of a top 'x#'.)
>
> Thank you Brian.
>
>> It was suggested to me that drivers who had not
>> completed three seasons of F1 should be excluded, but that would be going
> too
>> far. It might have been reasonable in the 1950s when three seasons would
> have
>> comprised maybe 25 GPs, but today three seasons could easily include 54
> races,
>> and only 83 drivers have ever passed that many F1 starts.
>
>> I therefore decided
>> to treat drivers with less than 30 starts as 'new' drivers and reduce
> their
>> race average accordingly. So, drivers with less than 10 starts have their
>> average reduced to only 25% of their real average; those with less than 20
>> starts have their averages reduced to 50%; and those with less than 30
> starts
>> receive 75% of their full average.
>
> (Semi-tease, but perhaps somewhat a real point,)
> Your above paragraph, is an "interesting" way to
> massage out, the obvious contentious "eye catchers"!!
> (I am agreeing, the Parkes, Taruffi, and Scarfiotti - not belong)
>
> But using that number (starts v. years) ((as in bigbird's point))
> does knock out von Tripps. He did reportedly 27 starts,
> but was a significant driver for 5 years in F1
> (sometimes in his era, only 7 GPs in a year).
> Posthumiously "second" in 1961 WDC.
Yes, I was disappointed at that, and also at demoting Gonzalez too.
> Possible solutions:
> 1. Give full credit to anyone starting the number of
> GPs that would equall 3 years of their 'era'.
Yes I did plan to do that, but it seemed simpler to stick to a uniform
30. However, I'd only need to work it out once for just a few drivers,
so it wouldn't be much work.
> 2, If stick to a set number of starts, change to:
>> "So, drivers with less than 8 starts have their
>> average reduced to only 25% of their real average;
>> those with less than 16 starts have their averages reduced to 50%;
>> and those with less than 24 starts receive 75% of their full average."
> (justifiable in that the numbers 10, 20, 30 are just
> abstracts of our 'arabic number' system, where as
> 8 used to be more often a full season, and recently
> is often a half season)
>
> I also note, this "massaging" will in a couple of races
> 'suddenly' end, and Hamilton may 'bounce' way up
> (or not?).
>
>> Keke Rosberg is the only WDC who doesn't make the top 50.
>> He ranks in 55th place - just below Ralf Schumacher.
>
> 1. Maybe, just "oh well".
> (year he won WDC, only won one GP.)
> 2. Maybe, argument to just change to "top 60"
> (please do not get me wrong, I've never been a
> Ralf fan, but on other hand he did well enough
> to get hired at Williams at right time, and won 6 GPs)
> 3. Or maybe, back to my earlier idea to somehow
> scratch off the 'obviously uncompetitive' car years.
> (noting Keke started in ?what 1979? but not very
> significant until 1982).
>
> Again, thanks for your contribution,
> and for listening to ideas.
Ideas are always worth listening to.
And sometimes even the trolls have their uses - they make you think
about things in different ways. :-)
"Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote ...
> "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote
> > In my humble opinion,
> > This is a real significant and major list,
> > a major project of love.
>
> Too kind, but thanks.
Well, I do not think it was "too kind" at all.
But your modesty is always appreciated.
I definitely think it (at time of your own choosing)
deserves it's own 'thread'. On all 3 (or more?)
groups you post to.
Meanwhile, you might find interesting/courious
my long term project.
We both get enjoyment from working the data.
(and I do not compare mine nearly equal yours).
Perhaps I tried to computerize way too early,
with not enough on-line info etc.
Whatever, it became shambles. I discarded it
in disgust, and went back to crude pencil and
graph paper.
Although I've enjoyed various 'web-sites' etc.,
I do not use them much.
So, my since 1950 F1 "greats" list/chart/poster is
on graph paper. 1950 towards left, current to right.
For each driver entered, first horizontal line is name,
second is make of car, third is standing in WDC,
forth is WDC points, and fifth is number of wins
that year. So, with blank space (for readability)
each entry takes 6 horizontal lines. So, only
6 1/2 names per page - so my 'poster' goes
2 pages deep, and 2 wide.
Certainly, some judgement (and predictive ability??)
is required to make/place and entry.
Mine has across each 'tier'
1st - Fangio, Stewart, Prost, Alonso.
2nd - Ascari, Brabham, Piquet
(yeah?? since 1993 none have 'inspired' me
enough to use that big space/line??
3rd - Farina, Clark, Lauda, MSchumacher
4th - Moss, Fittipaldi, Senna, J Villeneuve, now LH!
5th - G. Hill, Jones, D. Hill, Raikonnen
6th - Hawthorne, Surtees, Hunt, Mansell, R Schu
(that placing was more one of time/spacing?)
7th - von Tripps, Rindt, Schecter, Rossberg, Hakkinen
8th - P Hill, Andretti, Barrachello (again spacing?)
9th - Gonzalez, Brooks, Hulme, Patrese, Frentzen
(obviously spacings of length of career forced
WDC Hulme down there)
10, 11, 12, 13, and one partial one on 14
Comment if you wish.
> "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote
> > In my humble opinion,
> > This is a real significant and major list,
> > a major project of love.
>
> Too kind, but thanks.
Well, I do not think it was "too kind" at all.
But your modesty is always appreciated.
I definitely think it (at time of your own choosing)
deserves it's own 'thread'. On all 3 (or more?)
groups you post to.
Meanwhile, you might find interesting/courious
my long term project.
We both get enjoyment from working the data.
(and I do not compare mine nearly equal yours).
Perhaps I tried to computerize way too early,
with not enough on-line info etc.
Whatever, it became shambles. I discarded it
in disgust, and went back to crude pencil and
graph paper.
Although I've enjoyed various 'web-sites' etc.,
I do not use them much.
So, my since 1950 F1 "greats" list/chart/poster is
on graph paper. 1950 towards left, current to right.
For each driver entered, first horizontal line is name,
second is make of car, third is standing in WDC,
forth is WDC points, and fifth is number of wins
that year. So, with blank space (for readability)
each entry takes 6 horizontal lines. So, only
6 1/2 names per page - so my 'poster' goes
2 pages deep, and 2 wide.
Certainly, some judgement (and predictive ability??)
is required to make/place and entry.
Mine has across each 'tier'
1st - Fangio, Stewart, Prost, Alonso.
2nd - Ascari, Brabham, Piquet
(yeah?? since 1993 none have 'inspired' me
enough to use that big space/line??
3rd - Farina, Clark, Lauda, MSchumacher
4th - Moss, Fittipaldi, Senna, J Villeneuve, now LH!
5th - G. Hill, Jones, D. Hill, Raikonnen
6th - Hawthorne, Surtees, Hunt, Mansell, R Schu
(that placing was more one of time/spacing?)
7th - von Tripps, Rindt, Schecter, Rossberg, Hakkinen
8th - P Hill, Andretti, Barrachello (again spacing?)
9th - Gonzalez, Brooks, Hulme, Patrese, Frentzen
(obviously spacings of length of career forced
WDC Hulme down there)
10, 11, 12, 13, and one partial one on 14
Comment if you wish.
"a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a4mdnTLsN6hd24bVnZ2dnUVZ_oSunZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote ...
>> "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote
>> > In my humble opinion,
>> > This is a real significant and major list,
>> > a major project of love.
>>
>> Too kind, but thanks.
>
> Well, I do not think it was "too kind" at all.
> But your modesty is always appreciated.
>
> I definitely think it (at time of your own choosing)
> deserves it's own 'thread'. On all 3 (or more?)
> groups you post to.
>
> Meanwhile, you might find interesting/courious
> my long term project.
>
> We both get enjoyment from working the data.
> (and I do not compare mine nearly equal yours).
> Perhaps I tried to computerize way too early,
> with not enough on-line info etc.
> Whatever, it became shambles. I discarded it
> in disgust, and went back to crude pencil and
> graph paper.
> Although I've enjoyed various 'web-sites' etc.,
> I do not use them much.
>
> So, my since 1950 F1 "greats" list/chart/poster is
> on graph paper. 1950 towards left, current to right.
> For each driver entered, first horizontal line is name,
> second is make of car, third is standing in WDC,
> forth is WDC points, and fifth is number of wins
> that year. So, with blank space (for readability)
> each entry takes 6 horizontal lines. So, only
> 6 1/2 names per page - so my 'poster' goes
> 2 pages deep, and 2 wide.
>
> Certainly, some judgement (and predictive ability??)
> is required to make/place and entry.
>
> Mine has across each 'tier'
> 1st - Fangio, Stewart, Prost, Alonso.
> 2nd - Ascari, Brabham, Piquet
> (yeah?? since 1993 none have 'inspired' me
> enough to use that big space/line??
> 3rd - Farina, Clark, Lauda, MSchumacher
> 4th - Moss, Fittipaldi, Senna, J Villeneuve, now LH!
> 5th - G. Hill, Jones, D. Hill, Raikonnen
> 6th - Hawthorne, Surtees, Hunt, Mansell, R Schu
> (that placing was more one of time/spacing?)
> 7th - von Tripps, Rindt, Schecter, Rossberg, Hakkinen
> 8th - P Hill, Andretti, Barrachello (again spacing?)
> 9th - Gonzalez, Brooks, Hulme, Patrese, Frentzen
> (obviously spacings of length of career forced
> WDC Hulme down there)
> 10, 11, 12, 13, and one partial one on 14
>
> Comment if you wish.
>
>
I don't know who's is more "accurate" stats wise, but I do find your list
easier to "agree" with.
I thought Brabham and Clark seemed a bit low on the last list.
Senna would move up to just before Lauda for mine.
Chad
news:a4mdnTLsN6hd24bVnZ2dnUVZ_oSunZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote ...
>> "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote
>> > In my humble opinion,
>> > This is a real significant and major list,
>> > a major project of love.
>>
>> Too kind, but thanks.
>
> Well, I do not think it was "too kind" at all.
> But your modesty is always appreciated.
>
> I definitely think it (at time of your own choosing)
> deserves it's own 'thread'. On all 3 (or more?)
> groups you post to.
>
> Meanwhile, you might find interesting/courious
> my long term project.
>
> We both get enjoyment from working the data.
> (and I do not compare mine nearly equal yours).
> Perhaps I tried to computerize way too early,
> with not enough on-line info etc.
> Whatever, it became shambles. I discarded it
> in disgust, and went back to crude pencil and
> graph paper.
> Although I've enjoyed various 'web-sites' etc.,
> I do not use them much.
>
> So, my since 1950 F1 "greats" list/chart/poster is
> on graph paper. 1950 towards left, current to right.
> For each driver entered, first horizontal line is name,
> second is make of car, third is standing in WDC,
> forth is WDC points, and fifth is number of wins
> that year. So, with blank space (for readability)
> each entry takes 6 horizontal lines. So, only
> 6 1/2 names per page - so my 'poster' goes
> 2 pages deep, and 2 wide.
>
> Certainly, some judgement (and predictive ability??)
> is required to make/place and entry.
>
> Mine has across each 'tier'
> 1st - Fangio, Stewart, Prost, Alonso.
> 2nd - Ascari, Brabham, Piquet
> (yeah?? since 1993 none have 'inspired' me
> enough to use that big space/line??
> 3rd - Farina, Clark, Lauda, MSchumacher
> 4th - Moss, Fittipaldi, Senna, J Villeneuve, now LH!
> 5th - G. Hill, Jones, D. Hill, Raikonnen
> 6th - Hawthorne, Surtees, Hunt, Mansell, R Schu
> (that placing was more one of time/spacing?)
> 7th - von Tripps, Rindt, Schecter, Rossberg, Hakkinen
> 8th - P Hill, Andretti, Barrachello (again spacing?)
> 9th - Gonzalez, Brooks, Hulme, Patrese, Frentzen
> (obviously spacings of length of career forced
> WDC Hulme down there)
> 10, 11, 12, 13, and one partial one on 14
>
> Comment if you wish.
>
>
I don't know who's is more "accurate" stats wise, but I do find your list
easier to "agree" with.
I thought Brabham and Clark seemed a bit low on the last list.
Senna would move up to just before Lauda for mine.
Chad
"Chad" <cbstun@safemail.com> wrote
> "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote
> > "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote ...
> >> "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote
> >> > In my humble opinion,
> >> > This is a real significant and major list,
> >> > a major project of love.
> >> Too kind, but thanks. ----
> >
> > Meanwhile, you might find interesting/courious
> > my long term project.
> >
> > We both get enjoyment from working the data.
> > (and I do not compare mine nearly equal yours).
> > Perhaps I tried to computerize way too early,
> > with not enough on-line info etc.
> > Whatever, it became shambles. I discarded it
> > in disgust, and went back to crude pencil and
> > graph paper.
> > Although I've enjoyed various 'web-sites' etc.,
> > I do not use them much.
> >
> > So, my since 1950 F1 "greats" list/chart/poster is
> > on graph paper. 1950 towards left, current to right.
> > For each driver entered, first horizontal line is name,
> > second is make of car, third is standing in WDC,
> > forth is WDC points, and fifth is number of wins
> > that year. So, with blank space (for readability)
> > each entry takes 6 horizontal lines. So, only
> > 6 1/2 names per page - so my 'poster' goes
> > 2 pages deep, and 2 wide.
> >
> > Certainly, some judgement (and predictive ability??)
> > is required to make/place and entry.
> >
> > Mine has across each 'tier'
> > 1st - Fangio, Stewart, Prost, Alonso.
> > 2nd - Ascari, Brabham, Piquet
> > (yeah?? since 1993 none have 'inspired' me
> > enough to use that big space/line??
> > 3rd - Farina, Clark, Lauda, MSchumacher
> > 4th - Moss, Fittipaldi, Senna, J Villeneuve, now LH!
> > 5th - G. Hill, Jones, D. Hill, Raikonnen
> > 6th - Hawthorne, Surtees, Hunt, Mansell, R Schu
> > (that placing was more one of time/spacing?)
> > 7th - von Tripps, Rindt, Schecter, Rossberg, Hakkinen
> > 8th - P Hill, Andretti, Barrachello (again spacing?)
> > 9th - Gonzalez, Brooks, Hulme, Patrese, Frentzen
> > (obviously spacings of length of career forced
> > WDC Hulme down there)
> > 10, 11, 12, 13, and one partial one on 14
> >
> > Comment if you wish.
> >
> I don't know who's is more "accurate" stats wise, but I do
> find your list easier to "agree" with.
Why thank you.
It's just visually easy for my eyes, to see.
> I thought Brabham and Clark seemed a bit low on the last list.
Yes, understandable for 'stats', both hurt by
early years in uncompetitive car, and Brabham's
years to get 'his' new team competitive
(which raises a totally subjective issue of "challenge"!)
> Senna would move up to just before Lauda for mine.
> Chad
Well, interesting idea - road not taken.
Or -- once taken, I'm unlikely to re-do.
The spacings, would let both Lauda (3WDC)
and MSch (7 WDC) move up from 3rd tier to 2nd tier
(hence reducing Piquet (3WDC) to 3rd tier).
But, timing and career overlap pretty much
keep Senna on my 4th tier.
Life (and my work), often is not 'perfect'.
Judgement question to you,
why do you rate a one make 3WDC,
over a earlier two make 3WDC? ;<) ??
(or, #1, IMHO, when one has won GPs, in 3
different makes of cars - it's not just the car!!
or, #2, starting with a team in it's 'down' period
and helping bring it to the top, shows something also!!)
> "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote
> > "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote ...
> >> "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote
> >> > In my humble opinion,
> >> > This is a real significant and major list,
> >> > a major project of love.
> >> Too kind, but thanks. ----
> >
> > Meanwhile, you might find interesting/courious
> > my long term project.
> >
> > We both get enjoyment from working the data.
> > (and I do not compare mine nearly equal yours).
> > Perhaps I tried to computerize way too early,
> > with not enough on-line info etc.
> > Whatever, it became shambles. I discarded it
> > in disgust, and went back to crude pencil and
> > graph paper.
> > Although I've enjoyed various 'web-sites' etc.,
> > I do not use them much.
> >
> > So, my since 1950 F1 "greats" list/chart/poster is
> > on graph paper. 1950 towards left, current to right.
> > For each driver entered, first horizontal line is name,
> > second is make of car, third is standing in WDC,
> > forth is WDC points, and fifth is number of wins
> > that year. So, with blank space (for readability)
> > each entry takes 6 horizontal lines. So, only
> > 6 1/2 names per page - so my 'poster' goes
> > 2 pages deep, and 2 wide.
> >
> > Certainly, some judgement (and predictive ability??)
> > is required to make/place and entry.
> >
> > Mine has across each 'tier'
> > 1st - Fangio, Stewart, Prost, Alonso.
> > 2nd - Ascari, Brabham, Piquet
> > (yeah?? since 1993 none have 'inspired' me
> > enough to use that big space/line??
> > 3rd - Farina, Clark, Lauda, MSchumacher
> > 4th - Moss, Fittipaldi, Senna, J Villeneuve, now LH!
> > 5th - G. Hill, Jones, D. Hill, Raikonnen
> > 6th - Hawthorne, Surtees, Hunt, Mansell, R Schu
> > (that placing was more one of time/spacing?)
> > 7th - von Tripps, Rindt, Schecter, Rossberg, Hakkinen
> > 8th - P Hill, Andretti, Barrachello (again spacing?)
> > 9th - Gonzalez, Brooks, Hulme, Patrese, Frentzen
> > (obviously spacings of length of career forced
> > WDC Hulme down there)
> > 10, 11, 12, 13, and one partial one on 14
> >
> > Comment if you wish.
> >
> I don't know who's is more "accurate" stats wise, but I do
> find your list easier to "agree" with.
Why thank you.
It's just visually easy for my eyes, to see.
> I thought Brabham and Clark seemed a bit low on the last list.
Yes, understandable for 'stats', both hurt by
early years in uncompetitive car, and Brabham's
years to get 'his' new team competitive
(which raises a totally subjective issue of "challenge"!)
> Senna would move up to just before Lauda for mine.
> Chad
Well, interesting idea - road not taken.
Or -- once taken, I'm unlikely to re-do.
The spacings, would let both Lauda (3WDC)
and MSch (7 WDC) move up from 3rd tier to 2nd tier
(hence reducing Piquet (3WDC) to 3rd tier).
But, timing and career overlap pretty much
keep Senna on my 4th tier.
Life (and my work), often is not 'perfect'.
Judgement question to you,
why do you rate a one make 3WDC,
over a earlier two make 3WDC? ;<) ??
(or, #1, IMHO, when one has won GPs, in 3
different makes of cars - it's not just the car!!
or, #2, starting with a team in it's 'down' period
and helping bring it to the top, shows something also!!)
"a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vu-dnV5tuOHs8YbVnZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Chad" <cbstun@safemail.com> wrote
>> "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote
>> > "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote ...
>> >> "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote
>> >> > In my humble opinion,
>> >> > This is a real significant and major list,
>> >> > a major project of love.
>> >> Too kind, but thanks. ----
>> >
>> > Meanwhile, you might find interesting/courious
>> > my long term project.
>> >
>> > We both get enjoyment from working the data.
>> > (and I do not compare mine nearly equal yours).
>> > Perhaps I tried to computerize way too early,
>> > with not enough on-line info etc.
>> > Whatever, it became shambles. I discarded it
>> > in disgust, and went back to crude pencil and
>> > graph paper.
>> > Although I've enjoyed various 'web-sites' etc.,
>> > I do not use them much.
>> >
>> > So, my since 1950 F1 "greats" list/chart/poster is
>> > on graph paper. 1950 towards left, current to right.
>> > For each driver entered, first horizontal line is name,
>> > second is make of car, third is standing in WDC,
>> > forth is WDC points, and fifth is number of wins
>> > that year. So, with blank space (for readability)
>> > each entry takes 6 horizontal lines. So, only
>> > 6 1/2 names per page - so my 'poster' goes
>> > 2 pages deep, and 2 wide.
>> >
>> > Certainly, some judgement (and predictive ability??)
>> > is required to make/place and entry.
>> >
>> > Mine has across each 'tier'
>> > 1st - Fangio, Stewart, Prost, Alonso.
>> > 2nd - Ascari, Brabham, Piquet
>> > (yeah?? since 1993 none have 'inspired' me
>> > enough to use that big space/line??
>> > 3rd - Farina, Clark, Lauda, MSchumacher
>> > 4th - Moss, Fittipaldi, Senna, J Villeneuve, now LH!
>> > 5th - G. Hill, Jones, D. Hill, Raikonnen
>> > 6th - Hawthorne, Surtees, Hunt, Mansell, R Schu
>> > (that placing was more one of time/spacing?)
>> > 7th - von Tripps, Rindt, Schecter, Rossberg, Hakkinen
>> > 8th - P Hill, Andretti, Barrachello (again spacing?)
>> > 9th - Gonzalez, Brooks, Hulme, Patrese, Frentzen
>> > (obviously spacings of length of career forced
>> > WDC Hulme down there)
>> > 10, 11, 12, 13, and one partial one on 14
>> >
>> > Comment if you wish.
>> >
>> I don't know who's is more "accurate" stats wise, but I do
>> find your list easier to "agree" with.
>
> Why thank you.
> It's just visually easy for my eyes, to see.
>
>> I thought Brabham and Clark seemed a bit low on the last list.
>
> Yes, understandable for 'stats', both hurt by
> early years in uncompetitive car, and Brabham's
> years to get 'his' new team competitive
> (which raises a totally subjective issue of "challenge"!)
>
>> Senna would move up to just before Lauda for mine.
>> Chad
>
> Well, interesting idea - road not taken.
> Or -- once taken, I'm unlikely to re-do.
>
> The spacings, would let both Lauda (3WDC)
> and MSch (7 WDC) move up from 3rd tier to 2nd tier
> (hence reducing Piquet (3WDC) to 3rd tier).
> But, timing and career overlap pretty much
> keep Senna on my 4th tier.
> Life (and my work), often is not 'perfect'.
>
> Judgement question to you,
> why do you rate a one make 3WDC,
> over a earlier two make 3WDC? ;<) ??
>
> (or, #1, IMHO, when one has won GPs, in 3
> different makes of cars - it's not just the car!!
> or, #2, starting with a team in it's 'down' period
> and helping bring it to the top, shows something also!!)
>
>
When you put it like that, I almost feel a little guilty for "putting" Nikki
down :)
He also made an inspiring comeback after injuries that might have stopped
most other people wanting to get back on a moped.
I suspect both of them could have potentially ended up at the top of most
stats list if their careers were not interrupted.
I'd like to give you a nice logical answer, but was going more on raw
emotion. Senna would probably be #1 on any list I put together, even if it
was hard to justify, he and Alan Jones are the reasons I started to love F1
in the first place.
Chad
news:vu-dnV5tuOHs8YbVnZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Chad" <cbstun@safemail.com> wrote
>> "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote
>> > "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote ...
>> >> "a425couple" <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_LawrenceREMTHIS@msn.com> wrote
>> >> > In my humble opinion,
>> >> > This is a real significant and major list,
>> >> > a major project of love.
>> >> Too kind, but thanks. ----
>> >
>> > Meanwhile, you might find interesting/courious
>> > my long term project.
>> >
>> > We both get enjoyment from working the data.
>> > (and I do not compare mine nearly equal yours).
>> > Perhaps I tried to computerize way too early,
>> > with not enough on-line info etc.
>> > Whatever, it became shambles. I discarded it
>> > in disgust, and went back to crude pencil and
>> > graph paper.
>> > Although I've enjoyed various 'web-sites' etc.,
>> > I do not use them much.
>> >
>> > So, my since 1950 F1 "greats" list/chart/poster is
>> > on graph paper. 1950 towards left, current to right.
>> > For each driver entered, first horizontal line is name,
>> > second is make of car, third is standing in WDC,
>> > forth is WDC points, and fifth is number of wins
>> > that year. So, with blank space (for readability)
>> > each entry takes 6 horizontal lines. So, only
>> > 6 1/2 names per page - so my 'poster' goes
>> > 2 pages deep, and 2 wide.
>> >
>> > Certainly, some judgement (and predictive ability??)
>> > is required to make/place and entry.
>> >
>> > Mine has across each 'tier'
>> > 1st - Fangio, Stewart, Prost, Alonso.
>> > 2nd - Ascari, Brabham, Piquet
>> > (yeah?? since 1993 none have 'inspired' me
>> > enough to use that big space/line??
>> > 3rd - Farina, Clark, Lauda, MSchumacher
>> > 4th - Moss, Fittipaldi, Senna, J Villeneuve, now LH!
>> > 5th - G. Hill, Jones, D. Hill, Raikonnen
>> > 6th - Hawthorne, Surtees, Hunt, Mansell, R Schu
>> > (that placing was more one of time/spacing?)
>> > 7th - von Tripps, Rindt, Schecter, Rossberg, Hakkinen
>> > 8th - P Hill, Andretti, Barrachello (again spacing?)
>> > 9th - Gonzalez, Brooks, Hulme, Patrese, Frentzen
>> > (obviously spacings of length of career forced
>> > WDC Hulme down there)
>> > 10, 11, 12, 13, and one partial one on 14
>> >
>> > Comment if you wish.
>> >
>> I don't know who's is more "accurate" stats wise, but I do
>> find your list easier to "agree" with.
>
> Why thank you.
> It's just visually easy for my eyes, to see.
>
>> I thought Brabham and Clark seemed a bit low on the last list.
>
> Yes, understandable for 'stats', both hurt by
> early years in uncompetitive car, and Brabham's
> years to get 'his' new team competitive
> (which raises a totally subjective issue of "challenge"!)
>
>> Senna would move up to just before Lauda for mine.
>> Chad
>
> Well, interesting idea - road not taken.
> Or -- once taken, I'm unlikely to re-do.
>
> The spacings, would let both Lauda (3WDC)
> and MSch (7 WDC) move up from 3rd tier to 2nd tier
> (hence reducing Piquet (3WDC) to 3rd tier).
> But, timing and career overlap pretty much
> keep Senna on my 4th tier.
> Life (and my work), often is not 'perfect'.
>
> Judgement question to you,
> why do you rate a one make 3WDC,
> over a earlier two make 3WDC? ;<) ??
>
> (or, #1, IMHO, when one has won GPs, in 3
> different makes of cars - it's not just the car!!
> or, #2, starting with a team in it's 'down' period
> and helping bring it to the top, shows something also!!)
>
>
When you put it like that, I almost feel a little guilty for "putting" Nikki
down :)
He also made an inspiring comeback after injuries that might have stopped
most other people wanting to get back on a moped.
I suspect both of them could have potentially ended up at the top of most
stats list if their careers were not interrupted.
I'd like to give you a nice logical answer, but was going more on raw
emotion. Senna would probably be #1 on any list I put together, even if it
was hard to justify, he and Alan Jones are the reasons I started to love F1
in the first place.
Chad
