FIA analysing Kovalainen crash

Re: FIA analysing Kovalainen crash


"forty" <cforteR3M0V3@THISgmail,com > wrote in message
news:67rl9bF2puf71U19@mid.individual,net ...
> Mike P wrote:
>> "forty" <cforteR3M0V3@THISgmail,com > wrote in message
>> news:67rk1vF2puf71U18@mid.individual,net ...
>>> Who Needs Fenders? wrote:
>>>> John Briggs wrote:
>>>>> forty wrote:
>>>>>> Thank heavens they are seriously investigating the poor medical
>>>>>> response. That kind of delay is unacceptable.
>>>>> I don't think they could have got the medical car there any quicker
>>>>> without red-flagging the race.
>>>> They could if they should take (another) queue from ChampCar/IRL: adopt
>>>> a professional "Safety Team". A team that (1) travels with the circus,
>>>> and (2) are stationed about the track in strategic location.
>>>>
>>>> In the event of a major shunt, the crew heads to the scene as soon as
>>>> it is reported, even before the SC is called and the medical car can
>>>> roll.
>>>>
>>>> To be honest; I've always been surprised that the FIA, with all the
>>>> safety rules in place, they appear to have the worse plans in place for
>>>> driver safety _after_ an incident.
>>>>
>>>> Just my 2-cents...
>>>>
>>> American Open Wheel racing does have that precious truth figured out,
>>> thankfully.
>>>
>>
>> How many fatalities have there been in top level US open wheel racing
>> since May 1994? I know there's been none in F1 and at least 4 in
>> OW..without looking. I suspect there's been a lot more serious injuries
>> too..
>>
>> Mike P
> Much of that is due to the areas of weakness in car design and the more
> dangerous nature of oval racing IIRC. The Safety Teams' performances
> haven't been lacking. The single statistic of the number of fatalities or
> serious injuries is an oversimplification in the context of the issue
> being discussed.
>

Yes, I'm aware of that. I was just stirring ;-) I was most impressed with
the Safety Team being on the scene almost instantly after Dario's (1st) wild
ride in Michigan last year. He was obviously happy with it too, as he did it
again the week after at Kansas!

Mike P

Re: FIA analysing Kovalainen crash

Mike P wrote:
> "forty" <cforteR3M0V3@THISgmail,com > wrote in message
> news:67rl9bF2puf71U19@mid.individual,net ...
>> Mike P wrote:
>>> "forty" <cforteR3M0V3@THISgmail,com > wrote in message
>>> news:67rk1vF2puf71U18@mid.individual,net ...
>>>> Who Needs Fenders? wrote:
>>>>> John Briggs wrote:
>>>>>> forty wrote:
>>>>>>> Thank heavens they are seriously investigating the poor medical
>>>>>>> response. That kind of delay is unacceptable.
>>>>>> I don't think they could have got the medical car there any quicker
>>>>>> without red-flagging the race.
>>>>> They could if they should take (another) queue from ChampCar/IRL: adopt
>>>>> a professional "Safety Team". A team that (1) travels with the circus,
>>>>> and (2) are stationed about the track in strategic location.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the event of a major shunt, the crew heads to the scene as soon as
>>>>> it is reported, even before the SC is called and the medical car can
>>>>> roll.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be honest; I've always been surprised that the FIA, with all the
>>>>> safety rules in place, they appear to have the worse plans in place for
>>>>> driver safety after an incident.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my 2-cents...
>>>>>
>>>> American Open Wheel racing does have that precious truth figured out,
>>>> thankfully.
>>>>
>>> How many fatalities have there been in top level US open wheel racing
>>> since May 1994? I know there's been none in F1 and at least 4 in
>>> OW..without looking. I suspect there's been a lot more serious injuries
>>> too..
>>>
>>> Mike P
>> Much of that is due to the areas of weakness in car design and the more
>> dangerous nature of oval racing IIRC. The Safety Teams' performances
>> haven't been lacking. The single statistic of the number of fatalities or
>> serious injuries is an oversimplification in the context of the issue
>> being discussed.
>>
>
> Yes, I'm aware of that. I was just stirring ;-) I was most impressed with
> the Safety Team being on the scene almost instantly after Dario's (1st) wild
> ride in Michigan last year. He was obviously happy with it too, as he did it
> again the week after at Kansas!
>
> Mike P
>
>

Poor Dario. I don't think he wanted to be remembered as the Flying
Scotsman in quite that sense...

--
"We always have hope of winning, because the others might lose..."

Monsieur Orgini - The Grand Prix of Gibraltar

Re: FIA analysing Kovalainen crash


"forty" <cforteR3M0V3@THISgmail,com > wrote in message
news:67rrntF2qfl5iU1@mid.individual,net ...
> Mike P wrote:
>> "forty" <cforteR3M0V3@THISgmail,com > wrote in message
>> news:67rl9bF2puf71U19@mid.individual,net ...
>>> Mike P wrote:
>>>> "forty" <cforteR3M0V3@THISgmail,com > wrote in message
>>>> news:67rk1vF2puf71U18@mid.individual,net ...
>>>>> Who Needs Fenders? wrote:
>>>>>> John Briggs wrote:
>>>>>>> forty wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thank heavens they are seriously investigating the poor medical
>>>>>>>> response. That kind of delay is unacceptable.
>>>>>>> I don't think they could have got the medical car there any quicker
>>>>>>> without red-flagging the race.
>>>>>> They could if they should take (another) queue from ChampCar/IRL:
>>>>>> adopt a professional "Safety Team". A team that (1) travels with the
>>>>>> circus, and (2) are stationed about the track in strategic location.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the event of a major shunt, the crew heads to the scene as soon as
>>>>>> it is reported, even before the SC is called and the medical car can
>>>>>> roll.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be honest; I've always been surprised that the FIA, with all the
>>>>>> safety rules in place, they appear to have the worse plans in place
>>>>>> for driver safety _after_ an incident.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just my 2-cents...
>>>>>>
>>>>> American Open Wheel racing does have that precious truth figured out,
>>>>> thankfully.
>>>>>
>>>> How many fatalities have there been in top level US open wheel racing
>>>> since May 1994? I know there's been none in F1 and at least 4 in
>>>> OW..without looking. I suspect there's been a lot more serious injuries
>>>> too..
>>>>
>>>> Mike P
>>> Much of that is due to the areas of weakness in car design and the more
>>> dangerous nature of oval racing IIRC. The Safety Teams' performances
>>> haven't been lacking. The single statistic of the number of fatalities
>>> or serious injuries is an oversimplification in the context of the issue
>>> being discussed.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, I'm aware of that. I was just stirring ;-) I was most impressed with
>> the Safety Team being on the scene almost instantly after Dario's (1st)
>> wild ride in Michigan last year. He was obviously happy with it too, as
>> he did it again the week after at Kansas!
>>
>> Mike P
>
> Poor Dario. I don't think he wanted to be remembered as the Flying
> Scotsman in quite that sense...
>

Heh. I just watched it again. It took around 25secs for them to get to him
at *Kentucky* not Kansas after the car came to rest, which is damn good. As
others have noted, it's not as easy at a road course. There's also the
problem of getting the car out of the tyres it was in, you can't just yank
it out if there's an injured driver in there .. it can all be improved I'm
sure. How about something as simple as a small crane on the back of a truck
near each tyre barrier, just to lift them off quickly for a start..?

Mike

Re: FIA analysing Kovalainen crash

Mike P wrote:
> "forty" <cforteR3M0V3@THISgmail,com > wrote in message
> news:67rrntF2qfl5iU1@mid.individual,net ...
>> Mike P wrote:
>>> "forty" <cforteR3M0V3@THISgmail,com > wrote in message
>>> news:67rl9bF2puf71U19@mid.individual,net ...
>>>> Mike P wrote:
>>>>> "forty" <cforteR3M0V3@THISgmail,com > wrote in message
>>>>> news:67rk1vF2puf71U18@mid.individual,net ...
>>>>>> Who Needs Fenders? wrote:
>>>>>>> John Briggs wrote:
>>>>>>>> forty wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Thank heavens they are seriously investigating the poor medical
>>>>>>>>> response. That kind of delay is unacceptable.
>>>>>>>> I don't think they could have got the medical car there any quicker
>>>>>>>> without red-flagging the race.
>>>>>>> They could if they should take (another) queue from ChampCar/IRL:
>>>>>>> adopt a professional "Safety Team". A team that (1) travels with the
>>>>>>> circus, and (2) are stationed about the track in strategic location.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the event of a major shunt, the crew heads to the scene as soon as
>>>>>>> it is reported, even before the SC is called and the medical car can
>>>>>>> roll.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be honest; I've always been surprised that the FIA, with all the
>>>>>>> safety rules in place, they appear to have the worse plans in place
>>>>>>> for driver safety after an incident.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just my 2-cents...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> American Open Wheel racing does have that precious truth figured out,
>>>>>> thankfully.
>>>>>>
>>>>> How many fatalities have there been in top level US open wheel racing
>>>>> since May 1994? I know there's been none in F1 and at least 4 in
>>>>> OW..without looking. I suspect there's been a lot more serious injuries
>>>>> too..
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike P
>>>> Much of that is due to the areas of weakness in car design and the more
>>>> dangerous nature of oval racing IIRC. The Safety Teams' performances
>>>> haven't been lacking. The single statistic of the number of fatalities
>>>> or serious injuries is an oversimplification in the context of the issue
>>>> being discussed.
>>>>
>>> Yes, I'm aware of that. I was just stirring ;-) I was most impressed with
>>> the Safety Team being on the scene almost instantly after Dario's (1st)
>>> wild ride in Michigan last year. He was obviously happy with it too, as
>>> he did it again the week after at Kansas!
>>>
>>> Mike P
>> Poor Dario. I don't think he wanted to be remembered as the Flying
>> Scotsman in quite that sense...
>>
>
> Heh. I just watched it again. It took around 25secs for them to get to him
> at *Kentucky* not Kansas after the car came to rest, which is damn good. As
> others have noted, it's not as easy at a road course. There's also the
> problem of getting the car out of the tyres it was in, you can't just yank
> it out if there's an injured driver in there .. it can all be improved I'm
> sure. How about something as simple as a small crane on the back of a truck
> near each tyre barrier, just to lift them off quickly for a start..?
>
> Mike
>
>

I seem to recall A1GP playing with the idea of having a small army of
cranes at road courses for easy tyre wall repair/moving and wreckage
removal. I can't remember ever hearing about whether or not that was a
success, but I can imagine that some circuits without access roads near
the barriers may pose problems for the logistics of that kind of setup.

--
"We always have hope of winning, because the others might lose..."

Monsieur Orgini - The Grand Prix of Gibraltar

Re: FIA analysing Kovalainen crash

Mike P wrote:
> How many fatalities have there been in top level US open wheel racing since
> May 1994? I know there's been none in F1 and at least 4 in OW..without
> looking. I suspect there's been a lot more serious injuries too..

Just looked it up: 3 in the IRL (all ovals [1996, 2003, 2006]) and 3 in
CART (1 street course [1996], 1 oval [1999], 1 road course [1999]).

In most of these cases, track/vehicle design were most likely major
factors, not safety team response.

In fact, I'd say safety team response has prevented more deaths: Alex
Zanardi for example. In most cases (especially on the oval tracks),
safety crews are rolling even before the cars involved have stopped...

Yes--F1 has a better "head count" since Sena died, but any system can
always do with an improvement.

Just having professionally trained crews stationed around the course
with the equipment necessary to perform any extraction and is allowed to
roll the moment a major shunt occurs could be an improvement...

Re: FIA analysing Kovalainen crash

Who Needs Fenders? wrote...

> John Briggs wrote:
> > forty wrote:
> >> Thank heavens they are seriously investigating the poor medical
> >> response. That kind of delay is unacceptable.
> >
> > I don't think they could have got the medical car there any quicker without
> > red-flagging the race.
>
> They could if they should take (another) queue from ChampCar/IRL: adopt
> a professional "Safety Team". A team that (1) travels with the circus,
> and (2) are stationed about the track in strategic location.
>
> In the event of a major shunt, the crew heads to the scene as soon as it
> is reported, even before the SC is called and the medical car can roll.
>
> To be honest; I've always been surprised that the FIA, with all the
> safety rules in place, they appear to have the worse plans in place for
> driver safety after an incident.
>
> Just my 2-cents...
>
>

Read this and attempt to digest it
http :// www .singaporef1.tv/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=44

Then sdd a bit of clue - the world is not all English speaking.

Re: FIA analysing Kovalainen crash

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:20:34 -0400, forty wrote:

> Thank heavens they are seriously investigating the poor medical
> response. That kind of delay is unacceptable.
>
> http :// en.f1-live,com /f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080430095104.shtml

Time to un-retire Sid Watkins
http :// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Watkins

Re: FIA analysing Kovalainen crash

forty wrote...

> Thank heavens they are seriously investigating the poor medical
> response. That kind of delay is unacceptable.
>
> http :// en.f1-live,com /f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080430095104.shtml
>
>


Why is everyone assuming there were no medically marshalls at the
corner?

Re: FIA analysing Kovalainen crash


"Jon" <me@privvy,net > wrote in message
news:MPG.2282b664966ba7ef9896ec@66.250.146.159...
> forty wrote...
>
>> Thank heavens they are seriously investigating the poor medical
>> response. That kind of delay is unacceptable.
>>
>> http :// en.f1-live,com /f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080430095104.shtml
>>
>>
>
>
> Why is everyone assuming there were no medically marshalls at the
> corner?
>

Because they were attempting to pull the car out before lifting the tires
off. I'm a medical idiot, and I know you keep that neck straight until
you're damn sure there's no injury.

Heikki had a stiff neck aftewords. There was pressure on his neck be it
from the impact or the tires, but that's enough to warrant concern.

My concerns are:

1) Replace tire barriers with better technology (It does exist and you'd
think of all sports - F1 could develop it)
2) Strengthen wheel rims, require a certain amount of structural integrity
rather than letting teams get too close to the edge in trying to save
weight.

MW

Re: FIA analysing Kovalainen crash

forty wrote:
> Thank heavens they are seriously investigating the poor medical
> response. That kind of delay is unacceptable.
>
> http :// en.f1-live,com /f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080430095104.shtml
>
I don't know what was at the track, but I know someone who has been in
the medical team at the Phillip Island Motorcycle Grand Prix as a track
doctor. The team in charge of that race, then doubled in size and went
to the Mebourne F1 GP (though this doc didn't do the cars).

At PI, there were 5 or 6 cars with medical teams - 1 driver, 1
paramedic, one trauma specialist doc (and there was a fourth person.,
but can't remeber if they were a doc or a paramedic). They had to be
able to get to anywhere on the circuit in IIRC 90 sec (hence the high
performance vehicle, and driver). The car also had almost full first
response gear.

Then, in addition to that in the gaps on the circuit where 4 wheel
bikes, with a trauma specialist doctor, with a portable, smaller
response kit. They couldn't do a whole lot, but could commence CPR,
trauma control (ie bleeding), manage airways or control spinal injuries.
They had a mandated 30sec response time.

On the first three laps of any race, everyvehcile has to be fully
manned, with the engine running, with a target response time of 60sec
and 20sec for the car and bike respectively.

When something did happen, an ambulance could then be brought on track
(multiple around the circuit) and then take the casualty to the fully
manned medical centre (with a trauma team) or to a helicopter to go to
the major trauma hospital in the city, with a full team of doctors on
standby just for the drivers.

Now, at the time, I remember that the above was in excess of mandated
requirements. But even if it twice as good as the requirement, then a
doctor should be on scene within 60sec and a full first response medical
team should be on scene within 3 minutes.

I am sure that there should be similar times for fire and rescue
response vehciles too.