2008 Preview

2008 Preview

Thought it may be interesting to look at what you blokes reckon the
team prospects will be this year before testing gets underway. Please
keep personalities out of this thread, thanks. I'll start off with a
few random thoughts about each team.

09/01/2008
F1-2008-Preview

FERRARI
Montezemollo is back, Domenicali is in charge with a great team behind
him. Will we see more of the halcyon years of Luca in 75-77? They look
like the team to beat in 2008.

MCLAREN
After a turbulent 2007, they could be forgiven if they take a breath
this year but it won't happen. I guess there's a question on how the
three defunct development areas will affect the new car. Also lack of
an experienced driver will take a toll. Something tells me this will
be a difficult year for McLaren but I don't expect that to mean less
than top three.

BMW
Well one would expect this team to continue it's solid climb up the F1
ladder but watching the tennis reminds me just how easy it is to
faulter under pressure. I have to admit that while I admire their
achievements I don't like the team, they're cold and clinical with no
real passion, I'd enjoy watching them fail (not a good character
reference for myself is it).

WILLIAMS
Sam has done what he does best and left the races to others so I'm
expecting the FW08 to outperform this year, with the Toyota grunt it
should scare the top three and I'd love to see them take the top step
on occasion.

RENAULT
"The Team" at Renault are the best in F1, they win as a team and lose
as a team without pointing fingers and I admire that a lot. I also
think that "team" approach will see them recover quickly from the
nightmare of last season. It would not surprise me if they fight with
Ferrari for the title but I'm expecting them to challenge not win.

REDBULL
The second evolution car from Adrian Newey and all eyes will be on
this car in Melbourne. With young Horner in charge there's no doubt in
my mind that they'll take a step forward but how far? They have the
ingredients, will they win?

-----
Note# It's possible and wouldn't it be great to see a five way battle
for honors this year? Of coarse at least one team will falter at some
point. At worst we can expect Ferrari to dominate and a three way
battle for second.

HONDA
Ross B will be busy preparing the best chassis possible for this
season and it will be better than last season but he doesn't have a
magic wand so don't expect miracles. With the grunt of the Honda
engine it won't be long before his again visiting the podium.

TOYOTA
The biggest budget in F1 has not brought the rewards and that doesn't
appear to be changing nor the management restructure that is so
obviously required. Toyota disparately need a head kicking leader in
F1 just like they have in Tokyo.

TORO ROSSO
What a great name for a race team! Perhaps they should have had one of
the more emotional drivers of the eighties in the charge? (just
kidding). For purely sentimental reasons I hope Gerhard does extremely
well this year.

SUPER AGURI
Considering their budget they must be super and like their comic strip
namesakes, wouldn't it be nice if they prevailed? :-)

FORCE INDIA
Maybe a bigger force than more established teams would like they have
rounded up a formidable team is a very short time. Toyota had better
watch out or their mirrors may well be empty.

What are your thoughts?
beers,
build

Re: 2008 Preview

build wrote:

> What are your thoughts?

Um... okay, here goes...

Ferrari and McLaren will win races. Force India and Super Aguri won't.
BMW might.

Honda's resurgence from the dark days of 2007 could be more impressive
than many expect; Renault, not so much. Or vice-versa.

Williams will continue to give its engine supplier a sound and deserved
thrashing.

The back markers will no longer be able to rely on the big boys making
fools of themselves on a regular basis, although it will still happen
from time to time thanks to the qualifying system and four-race gearboxes.

Red Bull and STR... oh, I don't know. They're a laugh though, aren't they?

The Championships? Lewis and McLaren, by a nose. Possibly. Provided the
FIA doesn't declare metallic paint illegal halfway through the season.

--
Duncan Snowden.

Re: 2008 Preview

(in-line reply)
On Jan 24, 11:35 am, Duncan Snowden <d...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> build wrote:
> > What are your thoughts?

G'day Dunc,
Thanks for the reply.

> Um... okay, here goes...
>
> Ferrari and McLaren will win races. Force India and Super Aguri won't.
> BMW might.
>
> Honda's resurgence from the dark days of 2007 could be more impressive
> than many expect; Renault, not so much. Or vice-versa.

Many I speak to are expecting quite a bit from Ross so if their more
impressive they'll be winning which won't happen in my humble opinion.

> Williams will continue to give its engine supplier a sound and deserved
> thrashing.

I reckon they'll do more than that. In my opinion Williams will be the
underestimated team of '08, and jeeze I'll enjoy that.

> The back markers will no longer be able to rely on the big boys making
> fools of themselves on a regular basis, although it will still happen
> from time to time thanks to the qualifying system and four-race gearboxes.
>
> Red Bull and STR... oh, I don't know. They're a laugh though, aren't they?
>
> The Championships? Lewis and McLaren, by a nose. Possibly. Provided the
> FIA doesn't declare metallic paint illegal halfway through the season.
>
> --
> Duncan Snowden.

Thanks again.
Any one else?
beers,
build

Re: 2008 Preview

build wrote:

> Any one else?

OK, I'll bite.

McLaren
Ferrari

Williams
Renault

BMW
Red Bull
Toyota
Honda

Toro Rosso
Force India

Super Aguri

--
Mark Jackson - http :// www .alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Never send anthromorphic animals to do a mother's job.
- Sabrina Tanzini (Corey Pandolph)

Re: 2008 Preview

On Jan 24, 2:25 pm, Mark Jackson <mjack...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> build wrote:
> > Any one else?
>
> OK, I'll bite.
>
> McLaren
> Ferrari
>
> Williams
> Renault
>
> BMW
> Red Bull
> Toyota
> Honda
>
> Toro Rosso
> Force India
>
> Super Aguri
>
> --
> Mark Jackson - http :// www .alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
> Never send anthromorphic animals to do a mother's job.
> - Sabrina Tanzini (Corey Pandolph)

G'day Mark,
I didn't put the teams in any particular order although I think they
were approx last years results.
So my comments were the pertinent bit from my point of view. Those
being that I expect BMW to surprise in a disappointing way and
Renault, RedBull and particularly Williams to surprise in a positive
way.
beers,
build

Re: 2008 Preview

build wrote:
> On Jan 24, 2:25 pm, Mark Jackson <mjack...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>> build wrote:
>>> Any one else?
>> OK, I'll bite.
>>
>> McLaren
>> Ferrari
>>
>> Williams
>> Renault
>>
>> BMW
>> Red Bull
>> Toyota
>> Honda
>>
>> Toro Rosso
>> Force India
>>
>> Super Aguri

> I didn't put the teams in any particular order although I think they
> were approx last years results.
> So my comments were the pertinent bit from my point of view. Those
> being that I expect BMW to surprise in a disappointing way and
> Renault, RedBull and particularly Williams to surprise in a positive
> way.

My predicted* order more or less agrees with your comments, depending of
course on what expectations one held that would be disappointed or exceeded!

[*I would be less surprised at a reordering within a group than at a
reordering across a gap]

--
Mark Jackson - http :// www .alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Never send anthromorphic animals to do a mother's job.
- Sabrina Tanzini (Corey Pandolph)

Re: 2008 Preview

Mark Jackson wrote:
> build wrote:
>> On Jan 24, 2:25 pm, Mark Jackson <mjack...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>> build wrote:
>>>> Any one else?
>>> OK, I'll bite.
>>>
>>> McLaren
>>> Ferrari
>>>
>>> Williams
>>> Renault
>>>
>>> BMW
>>> Red Bull
>>> Toyota
>>> Honda
>>>
>>> Toro Rosso
>>> Force India
>>>
>>> Super Aguri
>
>> I didn't put the teams in any particular order although I think they
>> were approx last years results.
>> So my comments were the pertinent bit from my point of view. Those
>> being that I expect BMW to surprise in a disappointing way and
>> Renault, RedBull and particularly Williams to surprise in a positive
>> way.
>
> My predicted* order more or less agrees with your comments, depending
> of course on what expectations one held that would be disappointed or
> exceeded!
> [*I would be less surprised at a reordering within a group than at a
> reordering across a gap]

Not really. Your predicted order - and even your grouping - is based on
guesswork (or wishful thinking) rather than last year's results. Let's look
at a grouping based on last year's results:

McLaren
Ferrari

BMW
Renault

Williams
Red Bull

Toyota
Toro Rosso
Honda

Super Aguri
Force India

Now, everyone expects that BMW won't do as well this year, but that would
surely only mean them falling back to the Renault/Williams battle. Everyone
expects Williams to do well, but overhauling Renault will be tough in
itself. If Alonso really does bring his fabled half a second to Renault,
shouldn't we also deduct that from McLaren? The grouping is an artefact of
the points system: usually there is only room for four teams to have a
substantial points total, and it tends to break: 200/200/100/80/50 - the
better the top teams do, the worse those in 4th and 5th places do, and vice
versa.
--
John Briggs

Re: 2008 Preview

"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld,com > wrote:

[snip]

> surely only mean them falling back to the Renault/Williams battle. Everyone
> expects Williams to do well, but overhauling Renault will be tough in
> itself. If Alonso really does bring his fabled half a second to Renault,
> shouldn't we also deduct that from McLaren? The grouping is an artefact of

I note that at the Renault launch yesterday Alonso said that they were 0.8s
to 1 second off the McLaren/Ferrari pace. BMW Sauber and Honda also seem to
be 'slow' in early testing, but they have not sorted out the teething
troubles/aero handling yet.

Re: 2008 Preview

Brian Lawrence wrote:
> "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld,com > wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> surely only mean them falling back to the Renault/Williams battle.
>> Everyone expects Williams to do well, but overhauling Renault will
>> be tough in itself. If Alonso really does bring his fabled half a
>> second to Renault, shouldn't we also deduct that from McLaren? The
>> grouping is an artefact of

[another snip]
>
> I note that at the Renault launch yesterday Alonso said that they
> were 0.8s to 1 second off the McLaren/Ferrari pace. BMW Sauber and
> Honda also seem to be 'slow' in early testing, but they have not
> sorted out the teething troubles/aero handling yet.

As I went on to suggest in the bit you snipped, the points system
artificially boosts whichever team is third quickest, if the top two hoover
up maximum points. It could be someone unlikely, making us all look silly
:-)
--
John Briggs

Re: 2008 Preview

On Feb 1, 10:00 pm, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld,com > wrote:
> Brian Lawrence wrote:
> > "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld,com > wrote:
>
> > [snip]
>
> >> surely only mean them falling back to the Renault/Williams battle.
> >> Everyone expects Williams to do well, but overhauling Renault will
> >> be tough in itself. If Alonso really does bring his fabled half a
> >> second to Renault, shouldn't we also deduct that from McLaren? The
> >> grouping is an artefact of
>
> [another snip]
>
>
>
> > I note that at the Renault launch yesterday Alonso said that they
> > were 0.8s to 1 second off the McLaren/Ferrari pace. BMW Sauber and
> > Honda also seem to be 'slow' in early testing, but they have not
> > sorted out the teething troubles/aero handling yet.
>
> As I went on to suggest in the bit you snipped, the points system
> artificially boosts whichever team is third quickest, if the top two hoover
> up maximum points. It could be someone unlikely, making us all look silly
> :-)
> --
> John Briggs

G'day John,
Yep, we are playing a guessing game for bragging rights later on ;-)
which is pretty difficult as most teams are playing poker especially
with the all too visible aero parts. I doubt BMW won't do as well as
last year I expect them to improve however I expect more improvement
from Williams, Renault and Red Bull hopefully giving us a better show.
The Ferrari - McLaren advantage last year was so big it will be
difficult for teams to catch them especially if they improve which
they will. However I'm hoping the gap will be closed somewhat. Ferrari
will perhaps improve more than McLaren.

The points gap also has a lot to do with reliability and consistency
while BMW were only slightly quicker than the other "B" teams they
were a *lot* more consistent and reliable, that is what created the
gap.

G'day Duncan,
You may be right about the TC but I reckon by Melb most will be fine
with it.

Yes I agree predictions won't stay current for long and the first real
indication of teams full season strength won't come till Barcelona.
Interesting that Webber topped the sheets yesterday as he is not prone
to doing low fuel laps, that said I doubt it was with a heavy load.
Also not nice to see Williams with a niggling problem cutting valuable
testing time.

On the Honda test times ... I know Ross Brawn is a good poker player
but heck he's got me concerned.

G'day Brian,
Don't pay too much attention to press releases as you know they tell
you what they want you to hear not what is true. Teams are now going
to great lengths to mask their true performance even down to employing
techniques to thwart sonic analysis. In my humble opinion Renault and
BMW will be quite close to McLaren in Melbourne. Information I receive
has me reconsidering my thoughts on BMW, they are looking much better
than I anticipated. Red Bull and Williams are still on track but I
still have niggling worries about reliability, hope I'm wrong as I was
hoping this season would be a lot closer than last year.

beers all,
build

Re: 2008 Preview

On Feb 4, 11:55 am, build <bui...@gmail,com > wrote:
> On Feb 1, 10:00 pm, "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld,com > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Brian Lawrence wrote:
> > > "John Briggs" <john.brig...@ntlworld,com > wrote:
>
> > > [snip]
>
> > >> surely only mean them falling back to the Renault/Williams battle.
> > >> Everyone expects Williams to do well, but overhauling Renault will
> > >> be tough in itself. If Alonso really does bring his fabled half a
> > >> second to Renault, shouldn't we also deduct that from McLaren? The
> > >> grouping is an artefact of
>
> > [another snip]
>
> > > I note that at the Renault launch yesterday Alonso said that they
> > > were 0.8s to 1 second off the McLaren/Ferrari pace. BMW Sauber and
> > > Honda also seem to be 'slow' in early testing, but they have not
> > > sorted out the teething troubles/aero handling yet.
>
> > As I went on to suggest in the bit you snipped, the points system
> > artificially boosts whichever team is third quickest, if the top two hoover
> > up maximum points. It could be someone unlikely, making us all look silly
> > :-)
> > --
> > John Briggs
>
> G'day John,
> Yep, we are playing a guessing game for bragging rights later on ;-)
> which is pretty difficult as most teams are playing poker especially
> with the all too visible aero parts. I doubt BMW won't do as well as
> last year I expect them to improve however I expect more improvement
> from Williams, Renault and Red Bull hopefully giving us a better show.
> The Ferrari - McLaren advantage last year was so big it will be
> difficult for teams to catch them especially if they improve which
> they will. However I'm hoping the gap will be closed somewhat. Ferrari
> will perhaps improve more than McLaren.
>
> The points gap also has a lot to do with reliability and consistency
> while BMW were only slightly quicker than the other "B" teams they
> were a *lot* more consistent and reliable, that is what created the
> gap.
>
> G'day Duncan,
> You may be right about the TC but I reckon by Melb most will be fine
> with it.
>
> Yes I agree predictions won't stay current for long and the first real
> indication of teams full season strength won't come till Barcelona.
> Interesting that Webber topped the sheets yesterday as he is not prone
> to doing low fuel laps, that said I doubt it was with a heavy load.
> Also not nice to see Williams with a niggling problem cutting valuable
> testing time.
>
> On the Honda test times ... I know Ross Brawn is a good poker player
> but heck he's got me concerned.
>
> G'day Brian,
> Don't pay too much attention to press releases as you know they tell
> you what they want you to hear not what is true. Teams are now going
> to great lengths to mask their true performance even down to employing
> techniques to thwart sonic analysis. In my humble opinion Renault and
> BMW will be quite close to McLaren in Melbourne. Information I receive
> has me reconsidering my thoughts on BMW, they are looking much better
> than I anticipated. Red Bull and Williams are still on track but I
> still have niggling worries about reliability, hope I'm wrong as I was
> hoping this season would be a lot closer than last year.
>
> beers all,
> build

G'day All,
Looking at software I have access to, these would be the order in
Melbourne as of the last test. The variables are exponential so take
with a grain of salt and common sense.
Ferrari
McLaren
Renault
Williams
BMW
Redbull
STR
Force India
Honda
Toyota
Super Aguri

Ferrari had a clear margin, McLaren did not, so mix the 2nd to 6th as
you will. I'm looking forward to a good season :-)

beers,
build

btw, the STR result should indicate that these are not indicative of
reality.

Re: 2008 Preview

build wrote:

> Looking at software I have access to, these would be the order in
> Melbourne as of the last test. The variables are exponential so take
> with a grain of salt and common sense.
> Ferrari
> McLaren
> Renault
> Williams
> BMW
> Redbull
> STR
> Force India
> Honda
> Toyota
> Super Aguri
>
> Ferrari had a clear margin, McLaren did not, so mix the 2nd to 6th as
> you will. I'm looking forward to a good season :-)

Looks about right. Although we don't really know anything about Super
Aguri yet, it's hard to believe they'll do much with last year's Honda.
(There's a rumour going around that it won't be last year's, mind you.)
If they can work the same sort of miracles they did with that dodgy old
Arrows a couple of years ago though, who knows? ;)

And my prediction of the "works" Honda team making a stronger comeback
than Renault looks like wishful thinking already. Pity. Mind you,
Williams and Renault seem to be very close indeed, so it could be a fun
season.

--
Duncan Snowden.

Re: 2008 Preview

On Feb 9, 10:55 am, Duncan Snowden <d...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> build wrote:
> > Looking at software I have access to, these would be the order in
> > Melbourne as of the last test. The variables are exponential so take
> > with a grain of salt and common sense.
> > Ferrari
> > McLaren
> > Renault
> > Williams
> > BMW
> > Redbull
> > STR
> > Force India
> > Honda
> > Toyota
> > Super Aguri
>
> > Ferrari had a clear margin, McLaren did not, so mix the 2nd to 6th as
> > you will. I'm looking forward to a good season :-)
>
> Looks about right. Although we don't really know anything about Super
> Aguri yet, it's hard to believe they'll do much with last year's Honda.
> (There's a rumour going around that it won't be last year's, mind you.)
> If they can work the same sort of miracles they did with that dodgy old
> Arrows a couple of years ago though, who knows? ;)
>
> And my prediction of the "works" Honda team making a stronger comeback
> than Renault looks like wishful thinking already. Pity. Mind you,
> Williams and Renault seem to be very close indeed, so it could be a fun
> season.
>
> --
> Duncan Snowden.

G'day Duncan,
Yes the last 5 are very difficult to gauge at this stage, I'm sure the
order there will change.

The 5 behind Ferrari are all *very* close the only team with a gap is
McLaren but the smallest hiccup will see one or more of those behind
past them. It's much harder to race against 5 competitors than 1. Also
McLaren will by nature also want to aim for Ferrari they don't want
the distraction from those behind, if they are beaten by one of 4 in
Melb I can see them floundering (perhaps).

A few thoughts ... BMW are bluffing they are known to be using methods
of disguising performance so they could well be ahead of anyones best
guess. The others are bluffing too but less obviously so (as far as we
know). Honda will move to the top of that last group, I'd bet my
britches on it. Red Bull's performance to date is below expectations
so they could surprise.

So anything could happen and probably will but trying to predict
performance with distorted data is good fun.

The drivers are another equation. For Instance if Massa cannot beat or
match Kimi in the first three races I reckon he (Kimi) will be
unbeatable. Likewise with Heikki, he'll need to make a mark or he'll
slide into a number two position, same at BMW too for that matter.
Nakajima may be worth watching.

Now a question. Last year did Ferrari looked a bit slow pre-season?
and in '05-'06 did Renault look a bit slow pre-season?

beers,
build

Re: 2008 Preview

On Feb 9, 2:20 pm, build <bui...@gmail,com > wrote:
> On Feb 9, 10:55 am, Duncan Snowden <d...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> > build wrote:
> > > Looking at software I have access to, these would be the order in
> > > Melbourne as of the last test. The variables are exponential so take
> > > with a grain of salt and common sense.
> > > Ferrari
> > > McLaren
> > > Renault
> > > Williams
> > > BMW
> > > Redbull
> > > STR
> > > Force India
> > > Honda
> > > Toyota
> > > Super Aguri
>
> > > Ferrari had a clear margin, McLaren did not, so mix the 2nd to 6th as
> > > you will. I'm looking forward to a good season :-)
>
> > Looks about right. Although we don't really know anything about Super
> > Aguri yet, it's hard to believe they'll do much with last year's Honda.
> > (There's a rumour going around that it won't be last year's, mind you.)
> > If they can work the same sort of miracles they did with that dodgy old
> > Arrows a couple of years ago though, who knows? ;)
>
> > And my prediction of the "works" Honda team making a stronger comeback
> > than Renault looks like wishful thinking already. Pity. Mind you,
> > Williams and Renault seem to be very close indeed, so it could be a fun
> > season.
>
> > --
> > Duncan Snowden.
>
> G'day Duncan,
> Yes the last 5 are very difficult to gauge at this stage, I'm sure the
> order there will change.
>
> The 5 behind Ferrari are all *very* close the only team with a gap is
> McLaren but the smallest hiccup will see one or more of those behind
> past them. It's much harder to race against 5 competitors than 1. Also
> McLaren will by nature also want to aim for Ferrari they don't want
> the distraction from those behind, if they are beaten by one of 4 in
> Melb I can see them floundering (perhaps).
>
> A few thoughts ... BMW are bluffing they are known to be using methods
> of disguising performance so they could well be ahead of anyones best
> guess. The others are bluffing too but less obviously so (as far as we
> know). Honda will move to the top of that last group, I'd bet my
> britches on it. Red Bull's performance to date is below expectations
> so they could surprise.
>
> So anything could happen and probably will but trying to predict
> performance with distorted data is good fun.
>
> The drivers are another equation. For Instance if Massa cannot beat or
> match Kimi in the first three races I reckon he (Kimi) will be
> unbeatable. Likewise with Heikki, he'll need to make a mark or he'll
> slide into a number two position, same at BMW too for that matter.
> Nakajima may be worth watching.
>
> Now a question. Last year did Ferrari looked a bit slow pre-season?
> and in '05-'06 did Renault look a bit slow pre-season?
>
> beers,
> build

15/02/2008
Well with only two tests left before Melbourne, performance seems to
be pretty much as expected with Ferrari set to dominate and McLaren to
lead the "B" teams or perhaps fill the gap between them and Ferrari.
Williams and Red Bull look the strongest of the B's with Renault and
BMW needing improvement. However with the teams undoubtedly masking
their performance in a number of ways it is difficult to be certain.
Somehow when one watches the Renault "Team" at work it's difficult to
imagine them not being very competitive so I reckon there's more there
than meets the eye on the charts. The "C" teams are another matter
with Toyota looking strong at this point and the only one likely to
regularly challenge the B's but again it's difficult to tell and they
could well be among the B's. Toro Rosso look strong and Honda look set
to disappoint further. Mind you someone recently reminded me to never
play poker with Ross Brawn, so maybe they'll surprise? And with RB at
the helm I'd be surprised if Honda does not show the greatest
improvement by years end.

15/02/2008
Well with only two tests left before Melbourne, performance seems to
be pretty much as expected with Ferrari set to dominate and McLaren to
lead the "B" teams or perhaps fill the gap between them and Ferrari.
Williams and Red Bull look the strongest of the B's with Renault and
BMW needing improvement. I'd bet money that Nico and Mark will step on
the podium more than once this year, that much I know as Eddy might
say. However with the teams undoubtedly masking their performance in a
number of ways it is difficult to be certain. Somehow when one watches
the Renault "Team" at work it's difficult to imagine them not being
very competitive so I reckon there's more there than meets the eye on
the charts. The "C" teams are another matter with Toyota looking
strong at this point and the only one likely to regularly challenge
the B's but again it's difficult to tell and they could well be among
the B's. Toro Rosso look strong and Honda look set to disappoint
further. Mind you someone recently reminded me to never play poker
with Ross Brawn, so maybe they'll surprise? And with RB at the helm
I'd be surprised if Honda does not show the greatest improvement by
years end.

At the end of the day analysing the testing is a waste of time but a
lot of fun.
beers,
build

Re: 2008 Preview

build wrote:

> Many I speak to are expecting quite a bit from Ross so if their more
> impressive they'll be winning which won't happen in my humble opinion.

It's not just Brawn. It's the fact that they by all accounts the RA07
was mechanically sound - possibly with the best mechanical grip on the
grid - but the aero was worse than useless (Button lapping faster
without a front wing than with at Fuji springs to mind). If they sort
that out, they could be going places. If.

>> Williams will continue to give its engine supplier a sound and deserved
>> thrashing.
>
> I reckon they'll do more than that. In my opinion Williams will be the
> underestimated team of '08, and jeeze I'll enjoy that.

Me too. But I don't want to get my hopes up. :)

--
Duncan Snowden.