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Dega NW
Dega NW
Wow, Jr seemed to go 1/2 - 3/4 of a lap too soon. I thought he had it.
#'s 91 and 61 should be suspended for stupidity and/or lack of proper
communication with their spotter (or maybe the spotter did not alert
then as to where the problems were). No matter what the exact reason
those two incidents were extremely unprofessional and unnecessary.
Wow, Jr seemed to go 1/2 - 3/4 of a lap too soon. I thought he had it.
#'s 91 and 61 should be suspended for stupidity and/or lack of proper
communication with their spotter (or maybe the spotter did not alert
then as to where the problems were). No matter what the exact reason
those two incidents were extremely unprofessional and unnecessary.
Re: Dega NW
DAVe <smalleyster@gmail,com > wrote in news:d34cfbd3-1ae7-4d1f-bd2d-
435345845ccb@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups,com :
> Wow, Jr seemed to go 1/2 - 3/4 of a lap too soon. I thought he had it.
Yeah, he might have misjudged that a little...OTOH, maybe he should
have gone earlier, tried to make a deal with someone to stick with
him and pull both of them around in the high line - doing that
would take a lap to setup & get a run going.
> #'s 91
I don't recall now what Gunselman did. Can't have been that bad
an error in judgement, I'd think, or I'd have remembered.
> and 61 should be suspended for stupidity and/or lack of proper
> communication with their spotter (or maybe the spotter did not alert
> then as to where the problems were). No matter what the exact reason
> those two incidents were extremely unprofessional and unnecessary.
The Lepage incident is a harder call. It's obvious that NASCAR's
instructions on where and how to blend were opaque (and NASCAR
then tried to cover up by rigidly enforcing a new set of rules
after the accident - perhaps the first time NASCAR's rules
whiteboard has been re-written _during_ a race).
But Jarrett (who was in the most recent previous race at Dega)
obviously understood the rule to be "left side under the line
in turn one", which is what Lepage did.
So it seems to be there's two areas where blame can be placed,
and neither of them warrants strong blame:
1) Lepage's spotter told him the pack was coming (we heard that
on the radio during the replay). So even tho he was't required
to, better judgement would have led Lepage to stay on the apron.
2) Either Edwards' spotter failed to tell him there was a slow
car low in turn 1, or Edwards ignored that. OTOH, it's hard to
fault Edwards for pulling low when the car in front of him seemed
to drift high entering the turn, leaving a possible opening for
a pass.
I would suggest that to avoid that sort of situation in the future,
what they should do is tear up some of the asphalt in turn 1, and
replace it with a grass strip seperating the pit exit from the
track. Other tracks, notably Indy, are configured that way. That
forces the exiting cars to stay clear of the track until the pit
exit merges with the track in the turn 2/backstretch area, where
a car can safely come up to speed on the track.
John
DAVe <smalleyster@gmail,com > wrote in news:d34cfbd3-1ae7-4d1f-bd2d-
435345845ccb@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups,com :
> Wow, Jr seemed to go 1/2 - 3/4 of a lap too soon. I thought he had it.
Yeah, he might have misjudged that a little...OTOH, maybe he should
have gone earlier, tried to make a deal with someone to stick with
him and pull both of them around in the high line - doing that
would take a lap to setup & get a run going.
> #'s 91
I don't recall now what Gunselman did. Can't have been that bad
an error in judgement, I'd think, or I'd have remembered.
> and 61 should be suspended for stupidity and/or lack of proper
> communication with their spotter (or maybe the spotter did not alert
> then as to where the problems were). No matter what the exact reason
> those two incidents were extremely unprofessional and unnecessary.
The Lepage incident is a harder call. It's obvious that NASCAR's
instructions on where and how to blend were opaque (and NASCAR
then tried to cover up by rigidly enforcing a new set of rules
after the accident - perhaps the first time NASCAR's rules
whiteboard has been re-written _during_ a race).
But Jarrett (who was in the most recent previous race at Dega)
obviously understood the rule to be "left side under the line
in turn one", which is what Lepage did.
So it seems to be there's two areas where blame can be placed,
and neither of them warrants strong blame:
1) Lepage's spotter told him the pack was coming (we heard that
on the radio during the replay). So even tho he was't required
to, better judgement would have led Lepage to stay on the apron.
2) Either Edwards' spotter failed to tell him there was a slow
car low in turn 1, or Edwards ignored that. OTOH, it's hard to
fault Edwards for pulling low when the car in front of him seemed
to drift high entering the turn, leaving a possible opening for
a pass.
I would suggest that to avoid that sort of situation in the future,
what they should do is tear up some of the asphalt in turn 1, and
replace it with a grass strip seperating the pit exit from the
track. Other tracks, notably Indy, are configured that way. That
forces the exiting cars to stay clear of the track until the pit
exit merges with the track in the turn 2/backstretch area, where
a car can safely come up to speed on the track.
John
Re: Dega NW
He's the one who hit Franchitti, that final hit that took out Dario's ankle.
It's interesting, both fan and pro, every comment I've heard has either been
"he had no choice, nowhere to go, couldn't have avoided it" or "how
incredibly stupid, there's no reason he shouldn't have avoided it." Ain't
no middle ground there nowhere.
IMO, not having seen either his view of the scene or heard what his spotter
said, I have no idea if he could have avoided it or not.
On Lepage, it's interesting to me that everyone else who was asked what
NASCAR said in the driver's meeting about where to blend remembered
something very different from what Lepage said he heard, and in fact someone
else (I've forgotten who: Bowyer?) was black flagged earlier for improper
blending for doing exactly what Lepage did. That implies that it's Lepage's
memory that was faulty as to what the instructions were.
--pig
On 4/27/08 13:02, in article Xns9A8D7ACDE27B6pogosupernews@216.168.3.30,
"John McCoy" <igopogo@ix,net com,com > wrote:
> I don't recall now what Gunselman did. Can't have been that bad
> an error in judgement, I'd think, or I'd have remembered.
He's the one who hit Franchitti, that final hit that took out Dario's ankle.
It's interesting, both fan and pro, every comment I've heard has either been
"he had no choice, nowhere to go, couldn't have avoided it" or "how
incredibly stupid, there's no reason he shouldn't have avoided it." Ain't
no middle ground there nowhere.
IMO, not having seen either his view of the scene or heard what his spotter
said, I have no idea if he could have avoided it or not.
On Lepage, it's interesting to me that everyone else who was asked what
NASCAR said in the driver's meeting about where to blend remembered
something very different from what Lepage said he heard, and in fact someone
else (I've forgotten who: Bowyer?) was black flagged earlier for improper
blending for doing exactly what Lepage did. That implies that it's Lepage's
memory that was faulty as to what the instructions were.
--pig
On 4/27/08 13:02, in article Xns9A8D7ACDE27B6pogosupernews@216.168.3.30,
"John McCoy" <igopogo@ix,net com,com > wrote:
> I don't recall now what Gunselman did. Can't have been that bad
> an error in judgement, I'd think, or I'd have remembered.
Re: Dega NW
Megan Zurawicz <listpig@sbcglobal,net > wrote in
news:C43A2B4E.5FBDD%listpig@sbcglobal,net :
> He's the one who hit Franchitti, that final hit that took out Dario's
> ankle.
>
> It's interesting, both fan and pro, every comment I've heard has
> either been "he had no choice, nowhere to go, couldn't have avoided
> it" or "how incredibly stupid, there's no reason he shouldn't have
> avoided it." Ain't no middle ground there nowhere.
>
> IMO, not having seen either his view of the scene or heard what his
> spotter said, I have no idea if he could have avoided it or not.
Ah, OK, I remember now. I lean to the "no where to go" school,
since they didn't really show (probably didn't have) replays
showing exactly the course he took before the impact. If his
spotter had told him to go low because he thought the accident
would stay up on the track, and Gunselman had driven down onto
the flat, he'd pretty much be stuck at that point. At race car
speeds, you can't just suddenly decide to change course when you're
on the apron.
Argueably he should have slowed more earlier, but on the other
hand it takes a long long time to slow down from 190 mph, and you
can't use the brake hard at the same time you're steering.
> On Lepage, it's interesting to me that everyone else who was asked
> what NASCAR said in the driver's meeting about where to blend
> remembered something very different from what Lepage said he heard,
> and in fact someone else (I've forgotten who: Bowyer?) was black
> flagged earlier for improper blending for doing exactly what Lepage
> did. That implies that it's Lepage's memory that was faulty as to
> what the instructions were.
I disagree completely with that analysis. The Bowyer black flag
was after the accident, not before. That's why I said NASCAR was
re-writing the rules after the fact. And since two drivers were
blackflagged for failing to blend properly, it supports the idea
that Lepage's understanding of how to blend was the same as
everyone elses. (I think you have to discount the opinion of
Edwards and the other drivers who were knocked out by the
accident, since obviously they'd be in a bad temper and would
say Lepage was wrong whatever he'd done).
It's significant to me that Jarrett said, right after the event,
that his understanding was "left side below the line", since
he's been in a lot of races there and would know what the common
understanding was. Also, that agrees with what I've always
understood as the rule in previous races, that the right side
wheels could cross the line, but a car couldn't merge fully
onto the banking in turns 1 & 2 (in fact, it seems to me there
used to be a line at the turn 2 exit to show where a car could
come up fully onto the track).
That said, there's an element of discretion and common sense
that a driver should display, and Lepage didn't. It should be
obvious not to pull in front of a car going 100 mph faster.
So I assign to Lepage the blame of not using common sense, but
not the blame of breaking a rule.
John
Megan Zurawicz <listpig@sbcglobal,net > wrote in
news:C43A2B4E.5FBDD%listpig@sbcglobal,net :
> He's the one who hit Franchitti, that final hit that took out Dario's
> ankle.
>
> It's interesting, both fan and pro, every comment I've heard has
> either been "he had no choice, nowhere to go, couldn't have avoided
> it" or "how incredibly stupid, there's no reason he shouldn't have
> avoided it." Ain't no middle ground there nowhere.
>
> IMO, not having seen either his view of the scene or heard what his
> spotter said, I have no idea if he could have avoided it or not.
Ah, OK, I remember now. I lean to the "no where to go" school,
since they didn't really show (probably didn't have) replays
showing exactly the course he took before the impact. If his
spotter had told him to go low because he thought the accident
would stay up on the track, and Gunselman had driven down onto
the flat, he'd pretty much be stuck at that point. At race car
speeds, you can't just suddenly decide to change course when you're
on the apron.
Argueably he should have slowed more earlier, but on the other
hand it takes a long long time to slow down from 190 mph, and you
can't use the brake hard at the same time you're steering.
> On Lepage, it's interesting to me that everyone else who was asked
> what NASCAR said in the driver's meeting about where to blend
> remembered something very different from what Lepage said he heard,
> and in fact someone else (I've forgotten who: Bowyer?) was black
> flagged earlier for improper blending for doing exactly what Lepage
> did. That implies that it's Lepage's memory that was faulty as to
> what the instructions were.
I disagree completely with that analysis. The Bowyer black flag
was after the accident, not before. That's why I said NASCAR was
re-writing the rules after the fact. And since two drivers were
blackflagged for failing to blend properly, it supports the idea
that Lepage's understanding of how to blend was the same as
everyone elses. (I think you have to discount the opinion of
Edwards and the other drivers who were knocked out by the
accident, since obviously they'd be in a bad temper and would
say Lepage was wrong whatever he'd done).
It's significant to me that Jarrett said, right after the event,
that his understanding was "left side below the line", since
he's been in a lot of races there and would know what the common
understanding was. Also, that agrees with what I've always
understood as the rule in previous races, that the right side
wheels could cross the line, but a car couldn't merge fully
onto the banking in turns 1 & 2 (in fact, it seems to me there
used to be a line at the turn 2 exit to show where a car could
come up fully onto the track).
That said, there's an element of discretion and common sense
that a driver should display, and Lepage didn't. It should be
obvious not to pull in front of a car going 100 mph faster.
So I assign to Lepage the blame of not using common sense, but
not the blame of breaking a rule.
John
Re: Dega NW
Actually, the comments about what they said that I heard were all
broadcasters who had been in the meeting, one of whom (this morning on
Sirius) said he'd gone back and re-listened to his tape of the driver's
meeting.
He said that the instructions were definitely *confusing*, but were not what
Lepage reported them as being. Also, there was a lot of jet dryer noise,
the track being dried just outside the meeting, and them leaving the doors
open to keep the meeting from getting hot, stuffy and muggy---enough noise
that they had to interrupt the meeting and just wait for them to get further
away---which they admitted could have contributed to Lepage or others
mishearing or misunderstanding.
On 4/27/08 14:36, in article Xns9A8D8AA846D7Apogosupernews@216.168.3.30,
"John McCoy" <igopogo@ix,net com,com > wrote:
> And since two drivers were
> blackflagged for failing to blend properly, it supports the idea
> that Lepage's understanding of how to blend was the same as
> everyone elses. (I think you have to discount the opinion of
> Edwards and the other drivers who were knocked out by the
> accident, since obviously they'd be in a bad temper and would
> say Lepage was wrong whatever he'd done).
Actually, the comments about what they said that I heard were all
broadcasters who had been in the meeting, one of whom (this morning on
Sirius) said he'd gone back and re-listened to his tape of the driver's
meeting.
He said that the instructions were definitely *confusing*, but were not what
Lepage reported them as being. Also, there was a lot of jet dryer noise,
the track being dried just outside the meeting, and them leaving the doors
open to keep the meeting from getting hot, stuffy and muggy---enough noise
that they had to interrupt the meeting and just wait for them to get further
away---which they admitted could have contributed to Lepage or others
mishearing or misunderstanding.
On 4/27/08 14:36, in article Xns9A8D8AA846D7Apogosupernews@216.168.3.30,
"John McCoy" <igopogo@ix,net com,com > wrote:
> And since two drivers were
> blackflagged for failing to blend properly, it supports the idea
> that Lepage's understanding of how to blend was the same as
> everyone elses. (I think you have to discount the opinion of
> Edwards and the other drivers who were knocked out by the
> accident, since obviously they'd be in a bad temper and would
> say Lepage was wrong whatever he'd done).
Re: Dega NW
Megan Zurawicz <listpig@sbcglobal,net > wrote in
news:C43A33C8.5FBE6%listpig@sbcglobal,net :
> He said that the instructions were definitely *confusing*, but were
> not what Lepage reported them as being. Also, there was a lot of jet
> dryer noise, the track being dried just outside the meeting, and them
> leaving the doors open to keep the meeting from getting hot, stuffy
> and muggy---enough noise that they had to interrupt the meeting and
> just wait for them to get further away---which they admitted could
> have contributed to Lepage or others mishearing or misunderstanding.
Sounds like we're agreeing, then, that Lepage is guilty more of
not using common sense than of intentionally breaking a rule.
John
Megan Zurawicz <listpig@sbcglobal,net > wrote in
news:C43A33C8.5FBE6%listpig@sbcglobal,net :
> He said that the instructions were definitely *confusing*, but were
> not what Lepage reported them as being. Also, there was a lot of jet
> dryer noise, the track being dried just outside the meeting, and them
> leaving the doors open to keep the meeting from getting hot, stuffy
> and muggy---enough noise that they had to interrupt the meeting and
> just wait for them to get further away---which they admitted could
> have contributed to Lepage or others mishearing or misunderstanding.
Sounds like we're agreeing, then, that Lepage is guilty more of
not using common sense than of intentionally breaking a rule.
John
Re: Dega NW
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 11:02:53 CST, John McCoy <igopogo@ix,net com,com >
wrote:
>DAVe <smalleyster@gmail,com > wrote in news:d34cfbd3-1ae7-4d1f-bd2d-
>435345845ccb@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups,com :
>
>> Wow, Jr seemed to go 1/2 - 3/4 of a lap too soon. I thought he had it.
>
>Yeah, he might have misjudged that a little...OTOH, maybe he should
>have gone earlier, tried to make a deal with someone to stick with
>him and pull both of them around in the high line - doing that
>would take a lap to setup & get a run going.
>
>> #'s 91
>
>I don't recall now what Gunselman did. Can't have been that bad
>an error in judgement, I'd think, or I'd have remembered.
>
I didn't see that Gunselman did anything wrong. He dropped down onto
the apron with the accident happened at the top of the track. Should
he have gone in the grass? Maybe, but that bears a very high
probability of losing control and who knows where he would have ended
up.
Tom S.
<snip>
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 11:02:53 CST, John McCoy <igopogo@ix,net com,com >
wrote:
>DAVe <smalleyster@gmail,com > wrote in news:d34cfbd3-1ae7-4d1f-bd2d-
>435345845ccb@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups,com :
>
>> Wow, Jr seemed to go 1/2 - 3/4 of a lap too soon. I thought he had it.
>
>Yeah, he might have misjudged that a little...OTOH, maybe he should
>have gone earlier, tried to make a deal with someone to stick with
>him and pull both of them around in the high line - doing that
>would take a lap to setup & get a run going.
>
>> #'s 91
>
>I don't recall now what Gunselman did. Can't have been that bad
>an error in judgement, I'd think, or I'd have remembered.
>
I didn't see that Gunselman did anything wrong. He dropped down onto
the apron with the accident happened at the top of the track. Should
he have gone in the grass? Maybe, but that bears a very high
probability of losing control and who knows where he would have ended
up.
Tom S.
<snip>
Re: Dega NW
On Apr 27, 12:57 pm, "Tom S." <tscal...@cox,net > wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 11:02:53 CST, John McCoy <igop...@ix,net com,com >
> wrote:
>
> >DAVe <smalleys...@gmail,com > wrote in news:d34cfbd3-1ae7-4d1f-bd2d-
> >435345845...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups,com :
>
> >> Wow, Jr seemed to go 1/2 - 3/4 of a lap too soon. I thought he had it.
>
> >Yeah, he might have misjudged that a little...OTOH, maybe he should
> >have gone earlier, tried to make a deal with someone to stick with
> >him and pull both of them around in the high line - doing that
> >would take a lap to setup & get a run going.
>
> >> #'s 91
>
> >I don't recall now what Gunselman did. Can't have been that bad
> >an error in judgement, I'd think, or I'd have remembered.
>
> I didn't see that Gunselman did anything wrong. He dropped down onto
> the apron with the accident happened at the top of the track. Should
> he have gone in the grass? Maybe, but that bears a very high
> probability of losing control and who knows where he would have ended
> up.
>
> Tom S.
>
> <snip>
As I remember he had lots of time to slow down and correct his line.
IMHO a good spotter being listened to would have solved the problem.
On Apr 27, 12:57 pm, "Tom S." <tscal...@cox,net > wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 11:02:53 CST, John McCoy <igop...@ix,net com,com >
> wrote:
>
> >DAVe <smalleys...@gmail,com > wrote in news:d34cfbd3-1ae7-4d1f-bd2d-
> >435345845...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups,com :
>
> >> Wow, Jr seemed to go 1/2 - 3/4 of a lap too soon. I thought he had it.
>
> >Yeah, he might have misjudged that a little...OTOH, maybe he should
> >have gone earlier, tried to make a deal with someone to stick with
> >him and pull both of them around in the high line - doing that
> >would take a lap to setup & get a run going.
>
> >> #'s 91
>
> >I don't recall now what Gunselman did. Can't have been that bad
> >an error in judgement, I'd think, or I'd have remembered.
>
> I didn't see that Gunselman did anything wrong. He dropped down onto
> the apron with the accident happened at the top of the track. Should
> he have gone in the grass? Maybe, but that bears a very high
> probability of losing control and who knows where he would have ended
> up.
>
> Tom S.
>
> <snip>
As I remember he had lots of time to slow down and correct his line.
IMHO a good spotter being listened to would have solved the problem.
