Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.

Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.

'Crabby' cars may be scaled back by NASCAR: Expect NASCAR to tell Sprint Cup
teams that they've gone far enough - and in some cases, too far - with
making crooked cars. Sprint Cup Series director John Darby said Saturday
that teams will get a memo, likely this week, telling them to "clean up" the
way they're turning their wheels to help the cars handle better. "They need
some of that, but there are some of them that have pushed it," Darby said.
The rear wheels on some of the cars were turned to the point that some were
having difficulty being pushed onto the scales used in inspection.(Charlotte
Observer)(5-18-2008)
The new cars are ugly all reddy but when thay are going sideways there
uglier.

tom

Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.

On Sun, 18 May 2008 20:30:22 CST, "Wheels63" <boomerpop3@yahoo,com > wrote in <JZKdnZxjFOg8T63VnZ2dnUVZ_uSdnZ2d@wctc,net >:

>'Crabby' cars may be scaled back by NASCAR: Expect NASCAR to tell Sprint Cup
>teams that they've gone far enough - and in some cases, too far - with
>making crooked cars. Sprint Cup Series director John Darby said Saturday
>that teams will get a memo, likely this week, telling them to "clean up" the
>way they're turning their wheels to help the cars handle better. "They need
>some of that, but there are some of them that have pushed it," Darby said.
>The rear wheels on some of the cars were turned to the point that some were
>having difficulty being pushed onto the scales used in inspection.(Charlotte
>Observer)(5-18-2008)
>The new cars are ugly all reddy but when thay are going sideways they're
>uglier.

"UPDATE: NASCAR sent a memo to Sprint Cup teams this week putting a limit on the
amount of rear adjustment being made to create more sideforce. The adjustment
basically has the back tires turned to the right with a rear toe adjustment,
allowing the car to enter the turns with more speed. It's not visibly noticeable
on the turns, but on the straightaways the car appears to be crabbing down the
track sideways. Darby said teams have been adjusting the rear end in excess of
two degrees. NASCAR limited the adjustment to one degree.(ESPN,com )m this rule
takes effect as of the race at Dover next weekend.(5-22-2008)"

http :// www .jayski,com /teams/nastuff.htm

This is where a picture is worth a thousand words.

Anybody got any pix to show the crookedness?

Video?

Personal note: I've just come back from a long truck
ride (14' U-Haul) from S.C. through DC, NJ, Ithaca,
the southern tier, and back to Buffalo. I think this
is a very interesting topic. Some folks say Carl
Edwards' team was the first to figure out how to
twist the chassis under the car, hence his success
early in the season.

Marty
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Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.


"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski@canisius.edu> wrote in message
news:m56dnZJJc5BUg6vVnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@supernews,com ...
> On Sun, 18 May 2008 20:30:22 CST, "Wheels63" <boomerpop3@yahoo,com > wrote
> in <JZKdnZxjFOg8T63VnZ2dnUVZ_uSdnZ2d@wctc,net >:
>
>>'Crabby' cars may be scaled back by NASCAR: Expect NASCAR to tell Sprint
>>Cup
>>teams that they've gone far enough - and in some cases, too far - with
>>making crooked cars. Sprint Cup Series director John Darby said Saturday
>>that teams will get a memo, likely this week, telling them to "clean up"
>>the
>>way they're turning their wheels to help the cars handle better. "They
>>need
>>some of that, but there are some of them that have pushed it," Darby said.
>>The rear wheels on some of the cars were turned to the point that some
>>were
>>having difficulty being pushed onto the scales used in
>>inspection.(Charlotte
>>Observer)(5-18-2008)
>>The new cars are ugly all reddy but when thay are going sideways they're
>>uglier.
>
> "UPDATE: NASCAR sent a memo to Sprint Cup teams this week putting a limit
> on the
> amount of rear adjustment being made to create more sideforce. The
> adjustment
> basically has the back tires turned to the right with a rear toe
> adjustment,
> allowing the car to enter the turns with more speed. It's not visibly
> noticeable
> on the turns, but on the straightaways the car appears to be crabbing down
> the
> track sideways. Darby said teams have been adjusting the rear end in
> excess of
> two degrees. NASCAR limited the adjustment to one degree.(ESPN,com )m this
> rule
> takes effect as of the race at Dover next weekend.(5-22-2008)"
>
> http :// www .jayski,com /teams/nastuff.htm
>
> This is where a picture is worth a thousand words.
>
> Anybody got any pix to show the crookedness?
>
> Video?
>
> Personal note: I've just come back from a long truck
> ride (14' U-Haul) from S.C. through DC, NJ, Ithaca,
> the southern tier, and back to Buffalo. I think this
> is a very interesting topic. Some folks say Carl
> Edwards' team was the first to figure out how to
> twist the chassis under the car, hence his success
> early in the season.
>
> Marty

Im actually somewhat annoyed that NASCAR is stepping in to regulate this.
Anymore, there are so darned few things that teams can do to try to gain an
edge it seems that NASCAR is overtly attempting to stifle innovation.
AFAIK, the "crabbyness" does not affect the safety of the vehicle, so why
not let 'em experiment?

<sigh> what happened to the days of "run whutcha brung"?

Mike

Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.

On Fri, 23 May 2008 05:42:18 CST, "Mike Simmons" <mikesim@yhti,net > wrote in <2cidnc3jw_NGCKvVnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@posted.yhti>:

>> ... Darby said teams have been adjusting the rear end in
>> excess of
>> two degrees. NASCAR limited the adjustment to one degree.(ESPN,com )m this
>> rule
>> takes effect as of the race at Dover next weekend.(5-22-2008)"

>> http :// www .jayski,com /teams/nastuff.htm

>Im actually somewhat annoyed that NASCAR is stepping in to regulate this.
>Anymore, there are so darned few things that teams can do to try to gain an
>edge it seems that NASCAR is overtly attempting to stifle innovation.

They are setting a measurable limit.

>AFAIK, the "crabbyness" does not affect the safety of the vehicle, so why
>not let 'em experiment?

Because they look bad?

><sigh> what happened to the days of "run whutcha brung"?

Long gone--if they ever existed.

They say the Can-Am series was about as close as you
could get to "no rules racing" (other than the street
scene, which is a different kettle of fish):

http :// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can-Am

NASCAR has always used a formula. The formula has
gotten more complicated, but I think it was ruled
racing from the beginning.

Marty
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Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.


"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski@canisius.edu> wrote in message
news:M_udnX7ks9hvNqvVnZ2dnUVZ_s_inZ2d@supernews,com ...
> On Fri, 23 May 2008 05:42:18 CST, "Mike Simmons" <mikesim@yhti,net > wrote
> in <2cidnc3jw_NGCKvVnZ2dnUVZ_o3inZ2d@posted.yhti>:
>
>>> ... Darby said teams have been adjusting the rear end in
>>> excess of
>>> two degrees. NASCAR limited the adjustment to one degree.(ESPN,com )m
>>> this
>>> rule
>>> takes effect as of the race at Dover next weekend.(5-22-2008)"
>
>>> http :// www .jayski,com /teams/nastuff.htm
>
>>Im actually somewhat annoyed that NASCAR is stepping in to regulate this.
>>Anymore, there are so darned few things that teams can do to try to gain
>>an
>>edge it seems that NASCAR is overtly attempting to stifle innovation.
>
> They are setting a measurable limit.

The limit for this season should not invalidate work that teams have already
done. The limit should be set at the max angle teams are already using, then
reduced for 2009.

>
>>AFAIK, the "crabbyness" does not affect the safety of the vehicle, so why
>>not let 'em experiment?
>
> Because they look bad?

The COT is ugly to begin with. Angle of attack is just a drop in the ugly
bucket.

>
> NASCAR has always used a formula. The formula has
> gotten more complicated, but I think it was ruled
> racing from the beginning.
>

I think it's unfair to change the formula mid-season when it doesn't affect
all teams equally. I don't see the point of changing on the fly.

Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.

On Fri, 23 May 2008 08:41:06 CST, "armpit" <armarmpitpit@yahoo,com > wrote in <0IGdna_sL_CQXKvVnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews,com >:

>>>AFAIK, the "crabbyness" does not affect the safety of the vehicle, so why
>>>not let 'em experiment?

>> Because they look bad?

>The COT is ugly to begin with. Angle of attack is just a drop in the ugly
>bucket.

Heh heh.

>> NASCAR has always used a formula. The formula has
>> gotten more complicated, but I think it was ruled
>> racing from the beginning.

>I think it's unfair to change the formula mid-season when it doesn't affect
>all teams equally. I don't see the point of changing on the fly.

I don't see it either.

Heck, I can't see how I would go about building a
crabby car in the first place.

It is at least conceivable to me that the folks
defining and defending the formula may see things
that I don't. Perhaps they're watching the way
the most crooked cars behave on the track--and
don't like what they see.

Or maybe it's the problem of pushing the cars into
the Iron Maiden.

For now, I'm gonna give NASCAR the benefit of the
doubt.

Marty
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Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.


"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski@canisius.edu> wrote in message
news:gvGdnRB4nq6YdKvVnZ2dnUVZ_oHinZ2d@supernews,com ...
> On Fri, 23 May 2008 08:41:06 CST, "armpit" <armarmpitpit@yahoo,com > wrote
> in <0IGdna_sL_CQXKvVnZ2dnUVZ_ojinZ2d@giganews,com >:
>
>>>>AFAIK, the "crabbyness" does not affect the safety of the vehicle, so
>>>>why
>>>>not let 'em experiment?
>
>>> Because they look bad?
>
>>The COT is ugly to begin with. Angle of attack is just a drop in the ugly
>>bucket.
>
> Heh heh.
>
>>> NASCAR has always used a formula. The formula has
>>> gotten more complicated, but I think it was ruled
>>> racing from the beginning.
>
>>I think it's unfair to change the formula mid-season when it doesn't
>>affect
>>all teams equally. I don't see the point of changing on the fly.
>
> I don't see it either.
>
> Heck, I can't see how I would go about building a
> crabby car in the first place.

Shoot Marty, that's easy! First you start with a female car.....

Mike
(who's ducking and running)

Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.

Martin X. Moleski, SJ wrote:...Heck, I can't see how I would go about
building a crabby car in the first place.


Back in the early 1970's, Richie Evans had leaf springs in the rear of his
car.
They were mounted solid in the front so all the movement was in the rear
mount.
When he went into a corner and the weight shifted to the outside, the right
rear spring flattened out which moved the rear wheel back.
The left rear lightened so the rear spring curved more which moved the left
rear wheel ahead.
He had a crabby car 35 years ago.
Before the modifieds used dry sump systems, Richie had a bleeder ball full
of oil mounted in his car.
Just above the oil filter in the block (big block Chevy) was a threaded hole
that went into an oil galley.
He ran a line from this hole through a shutoff to the bleeder ball.
After he started the engine he would open the shutoff and the oil pump would
pressurize the bleeder ball.
Now any time during the race, if the oil pump starved for oil, instead of
the engine running without oil for a second or two, (which would destroy the
engine) as soon as the oil pressure dropped below what was in the bleeder
ball, the bleeder ball would push the oil back throught the oil galley and
lubricate the bearings.
When the oil pump started working again, it would push the oil back into the
bleeder ball.
Again, this was 35 years ago.
--
JerryD(upstateNY)

Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.

In article "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" <jerryd@rochester.rr,com > wrote:

>Back in the early 1970's, Richie Evans had leaf springs in the rear of his
>car.
>They were mounted solid in the front so all the movement was in the rear
>mount.
>When he went into a corner and the weight shifted to the outside, the right
>rear spring flattened out which moved the rear wheel back.
>The left rear lightened so the rear spring curved more which moved the left
>rear wheel ahead.
>He had a crabby car 35 years ago.

Not exactly the same...
That was rear steer.
What we have today isn't exactly rear steer..
It's skewed all the time.
Which is why the cars look so stupid.
Rear steer, is when the axle skews due to suspension travel,
but returns to square on the straights.

>Before the modifieds used dry sump systems, Richie had a bleeder ball full
>of oil mounted in his car.

That was not his idea, however... that's an accumulator, and has been
around for a long time...
Cheap racer's dry sump!

re: supers/Oswego
If you think the methanol fumes were bad in the covered stands,
you should be on the track during cautions!


Dan
****************************************
When people say, 'can I ask you a question?',
you really don't have much of a choice...

Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.

chuck_steak@nospam,com (Chuck Steak) wrote in
news:r4%Zj.3846$2C.3514@trndny08:

> re: supers/Oswego
> If you think the methanol fumes were bad in the covered stands,
> you should be on the track during cautions!

Careful - folks are likely to wonder "why was Dan on the
track during the cautions"?

John

Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.


"Chuck Steak" <chuck_steak@nospam,com > wrote in message
news:r4%Zj.3846$2C.3514@trndny08...

>
> re: supers/Oswego
> If you think the methanol fumes were bad in the covered stands,
> you should be on the track during cautions!
>

And that's saying a lot, because it's eyeball burning stuff in the stands.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel,net

Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.

On Fri, 23 May 2008 21:14:50 CST, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" <jerryd@rochester.rr,com > wrote in
<48377a0d$0$30217$4c368faf@roadrunner,com >:

>Back in the early 1970's, Richie Evans had leaf springs in the rear of his
>car.
>They were mounted solid in the front so all the movement was in the rear
>mount.
>When he went into a corner and the weight shifted to the outside, the right
>rear spring flattened out which moved the rear wheel back.
>The left rear lightened so the rear spring curved more which moved the left
>rear wheel ahead.
>He had a crabby car 35 years ago.

OK, I can picture that.

Are they doing something like that now?

>Before the modifieds used dry sump systems, Richie had a bleeder ball full
>of oil mounted in his car.
>Just above the oil filter in the block (big block Chevy) was a threaded hole
>that went into an oil galley.
>He ran a line from this hole through a shutoff to the bleeder ball.
>After he started the engine he would open the shutoff and the oil pump would
>pressurize the bleeder ball.
>Now any time during the race, if the oil pump starved for oil, instead of
>the engine running without oil for a second or two, (which would destroy the
>engine) as soon as the oil pressure dropped below what was in the bleeder
>ball, the bleeder ball would push the oil back throught the oil galley and
>lubricate the bearings.
>When the oil pump started working again, it would push the oil back into the
>bleeder ball.
>Again, this was 35 years ago.

Bright man. Tragic death!

< http :// www .nascar,com /2002/kyn/history/drivers/02/02/revans/index.html>:

The unquestioned king of modified racing, Evans won nine NASCAR Featherlite
Modified Tour championships before his untimely death in an accident during
practice at Martinsville Speedway in 1985. The Rome, N.Y., driver captured his
first title in 1973 and from 1978 through 1985 won a remarkable eight
championships in a row. In 1979, Evans started 60 NASCAR Modified races and
posted 54 top-five finishes -- including 37 victories. In 1986, Evans was
inducted into the National Motorsports Press Association's Hall of Fame at
Darlington (S.C.) Raceway. Ten years later, he was inducted into the
International Motorsports Hall of Fame in Talladega, Ala.

Marty
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Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.

"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski@canisius.edu> wrote in
news:G72dnW9CopItbqXVnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@supernews,com :

> On Fri, 23 May 2008 21:14:50 CST, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)"
> <jerryd@rochester.rr,com > wrote in
> <48377a0d$0$30217$4c368faf@roadrunner,com >:
>
>>Back in the early 1970's, Richie Evans had leaf springs in the rear
>>of his car.
>>They were mounted solid in the front so all the movement was in the
>>rear mount.
>>When he went into a corner and the weight shifted to the outside, the
>>right rear spring flattened out which moved the rear wheel back.
>>The left rear lightened so the rear spring curved more which moved
>>the left rear wheel ahead.
>>He had a crabby car 35 years ago.
>
> OK, I can picture that.
>
> Are they doing something like that now?

Leaf springs aren't used much any more (I think IMCA modifieds
still do, because that's a low-cost class, and leaf springs
have the virtues of being very cheap and very strong).

With a truck trailing arm suspension, like the Cup cars have,
you can get the same effect by setting the angles the arms
have at rest. If the arm is angled down at rest, then as
the suspension compresses and the arm moves to horizontal the
end will describe an arc, and move the rear wheel back.
Similarly if the arm starts horizontal, then as the suspension
extends (i.e. on the left side) it'll describe an arc which
pulls the wheel forward.

The more sophisticated 3-link and 4-link suspensions used
on modifieds and late models can also be made to do the same
thing - in fact, the 4-link as used in late models is popular
because it can create a lot of rear steer.

Note that rear steer as a routine handling trick is mostly a
dirt track technique. On pavement it's usually considered to
be a crutch compensating for some other facet of the suspension
which isn't designed right, and most setups are designed to
minimize the amount of rear steer which occurs.

John

Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.

On Sun, 25 May 2008 10:23:20 CST, John McCoy <igopogo@ix,net com,com > wrote in <Xns9AA9742815FDFpogosupernews@216.168.3.30>:

> ... With a truck trailing arm suspension, like the Cup cars have,
>you can get the same effect by setting the angles the arms
>have at rest. ...

OK.

Sounds like it is something people have thought of
and developed to quite a remarkable extent (remarkable
to me, I mean).

Thanks for the explanation!

Marty
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Re: Hey Nascar tells them to Fix it.



"John McCoy" <igopogo@ix,net com,com > wrote in message
news:Xns9AA9742815FDFpogosupernews@216.168.3.30...
> "Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski@canisius.edu> wrote in
> news:G72dnW9CopItbqXVnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@supernews,com :
>
> > On Fri, 23 May 2008 21:14:50 CST, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)"
> > <jerryd@rochester.rr,com > wrote in
> > <48377a0d$0$30217$4c368faf@roadrunner,com >:
> >
> >>Back in the early 1970's, Richie Evans had leaf springs in the rear
> >>of his car.
> >>They were mounted solid in the front so all the movement was in the
> >>rear mount.
> >>When he went into a corner and the weight shifted to the outside, the
> >>right rear spring flattened out which moved the rear wheel back.
> >>The left rear lightened so the rear spring curved more which moved
> >>the left rear wheel ahead.
> >>He had a crabby car 35 years ago.
> >
> > OK, I can picture that.
> >
> > Are they doing something like that now?
>
> Leaf springs aren't used much any more (I think IMCA modifieds
> still do, because that's a low-cost class, and leaf springs
> have the virtues of being very cheap and very strong).
>
> With a truck trailing arm suspension, like the Cup cars have,
> you can get the same effect by setting the angles the arms
> have at rest. If the arm is angled down at rest, then as
> the suspension compresses and the arm moves to horizontal the
> end will describe an arc, and move the rear wheel back.
> Similarly if the arm starts horizontal, then as the suspension
> extends (i.e. on the left side) it'll describe an arc which
> pulls the wheel forward.
>
> The more sophisticated 3-link and 4-link suspensions used
> on modifieds and late models can also be made to do the same
> thing - in fact, the 4-link as used in late models is popular
> because it can create a lot of rear steer.
>
> Note that rear steer as a routine handling trick is mostly a
> dirt track technique. On pavement it's usually considered to
> be a crutch compensating for some other facet of the suspension
> which isn't designed right, and most setups are designed to
> minimize the amount of rear steer which occurs.
>
> John
>

Chad Knaus's dad ran a fiberglass monoleaf spring in the right rear of his
late model for a season or two back in the 80's.