Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated

Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated

While preparing my RPG picks, I came across an article on NASCAR,com .
It stated that the Haas-CNC #66 and #70 were both confiscated and
hauled to the R&D Center. NASCAR apparently had "an issue with the
upper rear wing mounting points of the 66 and 70 cars." They had
apparently been altered.

I am just wondering why both cars were altered, how they were altered,
etc. I know that changing the location of those points can affect the
amount of downforce and drag generated by the wing. But, that would
only be really useful if you could change the angle of the wing during
the course of the race, similar to what some World of Outlaw racers do
- increase the angle in the turns for more downforce and decrease it
on the straights for less drag. But, I don't see how that could be
done without some sort of mechanical linkage to do the moving.

Any Scott Riggs and Johnny Sauter will be starting in the back in
backup cars, so it doesn't really bode well for the Haas -CNC cars
tomorrow.

Tom S.

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated

Tom S. wrote:
> While preparing my RPG picks, I came across an article on NASCAR,com .
> It stated that the Haas-CNC #66 and #70 were both confiscated and
> hauled to the R&D Center. NASCAR apparently had "an issue with the
> upper rear wing mounting points of the 66 and 70 cars." They had
> apparently been altered.
>
> I am just wondering why both cars were altered, how they were altered,
> etc. I know that changing the location of those points can affect the
> amount of downforce and drag generated by the wing. But, that would
> only be really useful if you could change the angle of the wing during
> the course of the race, similar to what some World of Outlaw racers do
> - increase the angle in the turns for more downforce and decrease it
> on the straights for less drag. But, I don't see how that could be
> done without some sort of mechanical linkage to do the moving.
>
> Any Scott Riggs and Johnny Sauter will be starting in the back in
> backup cars, so it doesn't really bode well for the Haas -CNC cars
> tomorrow.
>
> Tom S.
>

A couple crazy ideas based on Tom's comments:

1. Perhaps the team discovered that relocating the bolt holes
changed the impact the fastener protrusions (bolt head, nut,
etc.) made on the airflow over / through the wing, helping in
some way. This might also explain why Nascar took the cars,
versus just the brackets as they did to Earnhardt last year.

2. Perhaps the altered locations made the mounting geometry
incur more load (lever arm), and possibly allow the wing to shift
slightly during the race. As the race conditions change over the
course of the event, the wing would directionally contribute to
help correct the car, along with the typical adjustments. Of
course, it would fail post-race tech, and perhaps the bolt holes
are close-tolerance enough to prevent this, but ...

Anyway, those are my SWAGs for fun. Feel free to debunk or build
on as desired.

Aero

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated

AeroLoose <aeroloose@gmail,com > wrote in news:48396425$0$30520$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :

> 2. Perhaps the altered locations made the mounting geometry
> incur more load (lever arm), and possibly allow the wing to shift
> slightly during the race. As the race conditions change over the
> course of the event, the wing would directionally contribute to
> help correct the car, along with the typical adjustments. Of
> course, it would fail post-race tech, and perhaps the bolt holes
> are close-tolerance enough to prevent this, but ...

Now that's a good thought. Ferrari, of course, are notorious
for doing that last year in F1 (and inspiring a huge arguement
about what, exactly, a "movable aerodynamic device" actually
is). It'd be a little extreme for the engineering resources
of Haas, I think, altho it's also the kind of thing one might
accidently stumble on (which is how most aero advances are
made). But maybe it's really a Hendrick design being tried
out in a "safe" place :-)

John

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated

But maybe it's really a Hendrick design being tried
out in a "safe" place :-)

That could be. What does Hendrick provide for Haas/CNC Racing besides
engines?

"John McCoy" <igopogo@ix,net com,com > wrote in message
news:Xns9AA96D4FD18AEpogosupernews@216.168.3.30...
> AeroLoose <aeroloose@gmail,com > wrote in
> news:48396425$0$30520$4c368faf@roadrunner,com :
>
>> 2. Perhaps the altered locations made the mounting geometry
>> incur more load (lever arm), and possibly allow the wing to shift
>> slightly during the race. As the race conditions change over the
>> course of the event, the wing would directionally contribute to
>> help correct the car, along with the typical adjustments. Of
>> course, it would fail post-race tech, and perhaps the bolt holes
>> are close-tolerance enough to prevent this, but ...
>
> Now that's a good thought. Ferrari, of course, are notorious
> for doing that last year in F1 (and inspiring a huge arguement
> about what, exactly, a "movable aerodynamic device" actually
> is). It'd be a little extreme for the engineering resources
> of Haas, I think, altho it's also the kind of thing one might
> accidently stumble on (which is how most aero advances are
> made). But maybe it's really a Hendrick design being tried
> out in a "safe" place :-)
>
> John
>

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated

"acornct_dad" <acornct_dad@home,com > wrote in news:Z_h_j.2393$u7.431
@trnddc07:

> But maybe it's really a Hendrick design being tried
> out in a "safe" place :-)
>
> That could be. What does Hendrick provide for Haas/CNC Racing besides
> engines?

I was under the impression Haas/CNC got complete cars from Hendrick.

John

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated

> made).  But maybe it's really a Hendrick design being tried
> out in a "safe" place :-)
>
> John

Oh, get real. You can't lay this one on Rick's doorstep without
looking like the fool of the decade. Bootie's demeanor and comments
tell me that he was one of the perps on the mounting bracket deal.

I don't think you'll find any HMS chief taking chances with losing
points this season, especially when big fines are allegedly going to
be the rule.

N.

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated

Nancy2 <nancy-dooley@uiowa.edu> wrote in news:667e82f1-f78e-40ab-a0ab-
42bfa1fc5c8e@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups,com :

>> made).  But maybe it's really a Hendrick design being tried
>> out in a "safe" place :-)
>>
>> John
>
> Oh, get real. You can't lay this one on Rick's doorstep without
> looking like the fool of the decade.

LOL. I try real hard :-)

> Bootie's demeanor and comments
> tell me that he was one of the perps on the mounting bracket deal.

Now that I know a little more about what susposedly was done,
yes, I think this was Bootie's ingenuity. It doesn't appear to
strictly speaking be a rule violation either..,it 's possible
NASCAR will come back with a "don't do it again".

> I don't think you'll find any HMS chief taking chances with losing
> points this season, especially when big fines are allegedly going to
> be the rule.

Well that was exactly my point. Of course an HMS team won't try
something until it's shown to be legal. But a Haas team, that
basically runs as a test team for Hendrick? Sure, give them
the new bits to try. If NASCAR has a cow, the worst that HMS
would suffer would be a little extra financial assistance to
the Haas teams.

John

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated

On May 25, 8:05 am, AeroLoose <aerolo...@gmail,com > wrote:
> Tom S. wrote:
> > While preparing my RPG picks, I came across an article on NASCAR,com .
> > It stated that the Haas-CNC #66 and #70 were both confiscated and
> > hauled to the R&D Center. NASCAR apparently had "an issue with the
> > upper rear wing mounting points of the 66 and 70 cars." They had
> > apparently been altered.
>
> > I am just wondering why both cars were altered, how they were altered,
> > etc. I know that changing the location of those points can affect the
> > amount of downforce and drag generated by the wing. But, that would
> > only be really useful if you could change the angle of the wing during
> > the course of the race, similar to what some World of Outlaw racers do
> > - increase the angle in the turns for more downforce and decrease it
> > on the straights for less drag. But, I don't see how that could be
> > done without some sort of mechanical linkage to do the moving.
>
> > Any Scott Riggs and Johnny Sauter will be starting in the back in
> > backup cars, so it doesn't really bode well for the Haas -CNC cars
> > tomorrow.
>
> > Tom S.
>
> A couple crazy ideas based on Tom's comments:
>
> 1. Perhaps the team discovered that relocating the bolt holes
> changed the impact the fastener protrusions (bolt head, nut,
> etc.) made on the airflow over / through the wing, helping in
> some way. This might also explain why Nascar took the cars,
> versus just the brackets as they did to Earnhardt last year.
>
> 2. Perhaps the altered locations made the mounting geometry
> incur more load (lever arm), and possibly allow the wing to shift
> slightly during the race. As the race conditions change over the
> course of the event, the wing would directionally contribute to
> help correct the car, along with the typical adjustments. Of
> course, it would fail post-race tech, and perhaps the bolt holes
> are close-tolerance enough to prevent this, but ...
>
> Anyway, those are my SWAGs for fun. Feel free to debunk or build
> on as desired.
>
> Aero

Along those lines it is possible that the mounting points were located
so that the wing angle changes at racing speeds but returned to spec
for the inspection process with no air pushing on it.

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated-PENALTIES

"Tom S." <tscalfjr@cox,net > wrote in message
news:ke8h34htn2ha98fuu777gs8hkrjrrs8mcv@4ax,com ...
> While preparing my RPG picks, I came across an article on NASCAR,com .
> It stated that the Haas-CNC #66 and #70 were both confiscated and
> hauled to the R&D Center. NASCAR apparently had "an issue with the
> upper rear wing mounting points of the 66 and 70 cars." They had
> apparently been altered.

Penalties have been handed down:

Both drivers- 150 points
Both owners- 150 points
Both crew chiefs- six race suspension/probation until 12/31/$100,000 fine
Both car chiefs- six race suspension/probation until 12/31
Both teams- NASCAR now owns the cars

Larry
http :// larrysnatureshots,com

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated-PENALTIES

"RetiredFF" <lbatter@bogfeet,net > wrote in
news:DbqdnWivaoUUYKDVnZ2dnUVZ_t_inZ2d@earthlink,com :

> Penalties have been handed down:
>
> Both drivers- 150 points
> Both owners- 150 points
> Both crew chiefs- six race suspension/probation until 12/31/$100,000
> fine
> Both car chiefs- six race suspension/probation until 12/31
> Both teams- NASCAR now owns the cars
>
> Larry

Yeah, saw that after I'd posted earlier. I also saw this quote
from NASCAR's Darby:

"Typically when you go through some penalties and there's a
rules infraction, you always ask yourself `Why?' " Darby said.
"Why should we have to deal with that? It's obviously not good
for Haas Racing, it's not good for NASCAR, it's not good for
our sport."

Which just confirms that neither Darby nor anyone else in
NASCAR's brain trust have the remotest shade of a clue.

Personally, based on what I've seen reported on what was
actually done to the car, I think the penalties are grossly
excessive. OTOH, they do follow the pattern (which, in all
fairness, NASCAR has been pretty plain about) of continually
increasing penalties for the act of violation, not the
nature of the violation.

John

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated-PENALTIES

On May 28, 9:49 pm, "RetiredFF" <lbat...@bogfeet,net > wrote:

> Penalties have been handed down:
>
> Both drivers- 150 points
> Both owners- 150 points
> Both crew chiefs- six race suspension/probation until 12/31/$100,000 fine
> Both car chiefs- six race suspension/probation until 12/31
> Both teams- NASCAR now owns the cars


The fines and suspensions don't surprise me--although this is the
first time the car chief has been suspended along with the crew chief.

The last one does. I know when NA$CAr took one of Tony Stewart's cars
to the R&D center the team eventually got it back. Has there ever
been another case where a car was confiscated and not returned? I
can't think of one. Did MW get his "jet fuel" car back?

That just doesn't sound right. Is there a provision on the entry
blank where the teams agree to relinquish ownership of a car that
fails inspection? If not, I'd think the team has really solid grounds
to sue NA$CAR for the return of their property.

I heard Michael Waltrip mention he thought the cars would eventually
end up doing crash tests. I thought he was putting everyone on, but
maybe not....

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated-PENALTIES


<bob.paxton@gmail,com > wrote in message
news:274d3d9e-4a26-4a84-b433-53bfb2c60bd0@56g2000hsm.googlegroups,com ...
> On May 28, 9:49 pm, "RetiredFF" <lbat...@bogfeet,net > wrote:
>
>> Penalties have been handed down:
>>
>> Both drivers- 150 points
>> Both owners- 150 points
>> Both crew chiefs- six race suspension/probation until 12/31/$100,000 fine
>> Both car chiefs- six race suspension/probation until 12/31
>> Both teams- NASCAR now owns the cars
>
>
> The fines and suspensions don't surprise me--although this is the
> first time the car chief has been suspended along with the crew chief.
>
> The last one does. I know when NA$CAr took one of Tony Stewart's cars
> to the R&D center the team eventually got it back. Has there ever
> been another case where a car was confiscated and not returned? I
> can't think of one. Did MW get his "jet fuel" car back?
>
> That just doesn't sound right. Is there a provision on the entry
> blank where the teams agree to relinquish ownership of a car that
> fails inspection? If not, I'd think the team has really solid grounds
> to sue NA$CAR for the return of their property.
>
> I heard Michael Waltrip mention he thought the cars would eventually
> end up doing crash tests. I thought he was putting everyone on, but
> maybe not....

I agree, Bob. The permanent confiscation of the cars struck me as a bit
harsh also. Unless there is a provision in the rules that allows NASCAR to
do so, I would think Haas-CNC has a good case to get their property
returned.

Mike

>

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated-PENALTIES

In article bob.paxton@gmail,com wrote:


>That just doesn't sound right. Is there a provision on the entry
>blank where the teams agree to relinquish ownership of a car that
>fails inspection? If not, I'd think the team has really solid grounds
>to sue NA$CAR for the return of their property.

NASCAR "can" confiscate any
car.. part or fuel.. that fails inspection.
Without any obligation for reimbursement.


Dan
****************************************
When people say, 'can I ask you a question?',
you really don't have much of a choice...

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated-PENALTIES

On May 29, 11:41 am, chuck st...@nospam,com (Chuck Steak) wrote:

>
> NASCAR "can" confiscate any
> car.. part or fuel.. that fails inspection.
> Without any obligation for reimbursement.

I can see taking an illegal part. I just can't see taking the whole
car permanently. By doing that, they're taking a bunch of legal parts
along with the illegal ones and that just seems to me like a flagrant
violation of basic property rights.

Re: Haas-CNC Cars Confiscated-PENALTIES

In article , bob.paxton@gmail,com wrote:

>On May 29, 11:41 am, chuck_st...@nospam,com (Chuck Steak) wrote:

>> NASCAR "can" confiscate any
>> car.. part or fuel.. that fails inspection.
>> Without any obligation for reimbursement.

>I can see taking an illegal part. I just can't see taking the whole
>car permanently. By doing that, they're taking a bunch of legal parts
>along with the illegal ones and that just seems to me like a flagrant
>violation of basic property rights.

Well, that may be true if someone tried to take your car
from your garage...
But you are at a race, and you are aware of the rules
of the organization that you joined, and.
you agreed to abide by them when you paid to race.....


Dan
****************************************
When people say, 'can I ask you a question?',
you really don't have much of a choice...