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U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther ...

Reply from: Kyle Schwitters
Date: 29 Jun 2009, 17:40
U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther ...

Forget "electric" cars for at least 15 years.

Until then, it'll be gas-guzzlin' all the way!

A one-dollar federal tax on gasoline would help solve the problem ...
but it won't happen here in SUV-land.

-----------------
"It's a Long Road to Profitable Fuel Economy in the U.S."

By Warren Brown
Sunday, June 28, 2009


THE BEST MYTHS are sometimes planted in academic studies, one of which
was delivered last week by the University of Michigan Transportation
Research Institute.

The 35-page tome, "Fixing Detroit: How Far, How Fast, How Fuel
Efficient," argues that the Obama administration's push for more
vehicle miles per gallon could return domestic car companies to
profitability.

The study also says many of the domestic industry's current problems
stem from its habitual underestimation of U.S. consumer demand for
fuel-efficient cars.

That failure, according to study co-authors Walter McManus and Rob
Kleinbaum, caused U.S. automobile manufacturers to lose market share
to foreign rivals -- especially to those from Japan.

Kleinbaum, a former GM employee who is now a consultant to the
Transportation Research Institute, accused his former company of
myopia in matters fuel economy:

"For years [GM] has discounted consumer research results when
calculating the benefits of improving fuel economy. . . . If GM had
followed its own market research results over the last three decades,
[GM] would not be in Chapter 11 [bankruptcy reorganization] today."

The study and its core argument -- that fuel economy is a profitable
opportunity in the United States missed by domestic car companies who
ignored U.S. consumer demands for better vehicle mileage -- constitute
rich topsoil for environmentalists who have long made the same claim.
But it gets washed away in a market flooded with cheap gasoline, here
defined as a gallon of regular unleaded priced below $4.00.

Remember May 2008?

Back then, when regular unleaded gasoline prices hit that $4 tipping
point, U.S. motorists were screaming for better fuel economy. Toyota,
the God of Green Motoring, finally began turning toward profitability
with U.S. sales of its gas-electric Prius hybrid sedan -- a car
largely made possible by money earned from sales of Toyota sport-
utility vehicles, trucks and other high-horsepower rides in the United
States.

Giddy with the possibility of actually being able to earn money on
U.S. sales of fuel-efficient vehicles, Toyota scrapped plans to build
a sport-utility truck plant in Tupelo, Miss. Instead, the company said
it would build a Prius plant in that place.

But U.S. gasoline prices tumbled in the fall of 2008. Plans for the
Mississippi Prius plant were shelved. A globally collapsed economy
crushed worldwide car sales in general. But it shredded U.S. sales of
the most fuel-efficient models in particular.

Overall car sales in the U.S. market were down 34 percent in May,
compared with May 2008. Gas-sippers, mostly small cars that get 30
miles per gallon or better in combined city/highway motoring,
practically tanked. Here are some examples:

Chevrolet Cobalt, being marketed with big discounts, down 52 percent
May 2009, compared with May last year;

Ford Focus, down 54 percent;

Honda Civic, 61 percent;

Toyota Corolla, down 55 percent.

How bad is bad for U.S. sales of fuel-efficient small cars? Give me a
drum-roll, please: The GM-made Chevrolet Aveo gets 27 miles per gallon
in the city and 34 miles per gallon on the highway. It's cute and
reasonably safe. (Size matters in car-to-car crashes.) It starts at
$11,965, and GM is having a hard time giving them away.

There is a 380-day supply of Aveo cars in a market where a 60-day
supply of saleable inventory is considered "normal."

This isn't the first time that dreams of profitable fuel-efficient
motoring have been sideswiped in an America drunk on cheap gasoline.
History gives us the example of the now-defunct American Motors, a
company that thrived for a few decades with nifty, wonderfully rattle-
free fuel sippers such as the Nash Rambler and Rambler American, but
was buried in the dust of the nation's seemingly unending horsepower
wars.

The problem is one well-known to domestic and foreign car companies
doing business in this country. Absent high gasoline prices, most U.S.
buyers go for more horsepower, bigger cars and trucks.

Toyota didn't make billions selling fuel efficiency in the United
States. It cleaned up selling sport-utility vehicles, luxury sedans,
sports cars and trucks. Toyota lost billions -- $4.6 billion in the
fiscal year ended in March -- only when sales of its muscle-flexing
rides went limp in a U.S. market whipsawed by radically fluctuating
fuel prices. Tougher consumer credit in tandem with those fuel-price
gyrations didn't help.

Honda, which has yet to introduce an eight-cylinder car in the United
States, nonetheless has done exceptionally well selling six-cylinder
sport-utility models such as its Honda Pilot and Acura MDX, and hot,
six-cylinder versions of its Honda Accord mid-size sedan.

Maybe the day will come when domestic and foreign car companies can
turn handsome profits in America selling small cars that get better
than 30 miles per gallon. But that is not likely to happen without a
sensible federal policy affecting the price of gasoline in a way that
makes consumers pay more attention to how they use the stuff.

http :// www .washingtonpost,com /wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/26/AR2009062602338.html

Reply from: ben91932
Date: 29 Jun 2009, 19:00
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther ...

On Jun 29, 8:40 am, Kyle Schwitters <slipuva...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> Forget "electric" cars for at least 15 years.
>
> Until then, it'll be gas-guzzlin' all the way!
>
> A one-dollar federal tax on gasoline would help solve the problem ...
> but it won't happen here in SUV-land.

I'd be happy to pay an extra dollar or two for gas if the proceeds
went to alt fuels research directly.
Oil has been subsidized for decades and we have underpaid for decades.
Ben

Reply from: E. Meyer
Date: 29 Jun 2009, 23:27
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther ...




On 6/29/09 12:00 PM, in article
67408118-6389-4b57-b512-8ece665e9727@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups,com , "ben91932"
<benteaches@gmail,com > wrote:

> On Jun 29, 8:40 am, Kyle Schwitters <slipuva...@yahoo,com > wrote:
>> Forget "electric" cars for at least 15 years.
>>
>> Until then, it'll be gas-guzzlin' all the way!
>>
>> A one-dollar federal tax on gasoline would help solve the problem ...
>> but it won't happen here in SUV-land.
>
> I'd be happy to pay an extra dollar or two for gas if the proceeds
> went to alt fuels research directly.
> Oil has been subsidized for decades and we have underpaid for decades.
> Ben

Utopian-esque thinking. That extra dollar or two would go to this, that, or
the other politically correct welfare program instead, just like the gas tax
does.


Reply from: jim
Date: 30 Jun 2009, 00:59
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther...



"E. Meyer" wrote:
>
> On 6/29/09 12:00 PM, in article
> 67408118-6389-4b57-b512-8ece665e9727@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups,com , "ben91932"
> <benteaches@gmail,com > wrote:
>
> > On Jun 29, 8:40 am, Kyle Schwitters <slipuva...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> >> Forget "electric" cars for at least 15 years.
> >>
> >> Until then, it'll be gas-guzzlin' all the way!
> >>
> >> A one-dollar federal tax on gasoline would help solve the problem ...
> >> but it won't happen here in SUV-land.
> >
> > I'd be happy to pay an extra dollar or two for gas if the proceeds
> > went to alt fuels research directly.
> > Oil has been subsidized for decades and we have underpaid for decades.
> > Ben
>
> Utopian-esque thinking. That extra dollar or two would go to this, that, or
> the other politically correct welfare program instead, just like the gas tax
> does.

Doesn't sound like you know much about how any of this really works. A
increased gas tax (or tax direct on oil) would spur new research for
other forms of transportation and research for alternate energy sources
even if not one penny of the collected tax went to pay for that
research. That is it could be used to pay nations current bills instead
of shamelessly making future generations pay those bills and at the same
time encourage research in alternate fuels.

Your information on where the gas tax is currently being spent is wrong
also. The current tax on oil in the US is much lower than Europe or
Japan and it is designed to facilitate one thing - use of oil. And right
now every penny of the tax goes to subsidize oil powered transportation
and nothing else. Currently the gas tax is way too low to even fully
fund the maintenance of the nation's highway system as a result much of
the money spent on highways is now coming out of general revenue funds.


-jim

Reply from: Kruse
Date: 30 Jun 2009, 02:15
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther...

On Jun 29, 5:59 pm, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote:
>         Doesn't sound like you know much about how any of this really works. A
> increased gas tax (or tax direct on oil) would spur new research for
> other forms of transportation.

Currently the gas tax is way too low to


<snip>

Tell you what. If gas taxes are too low, not only can you pay for the
increased taxes that you feel
that YOU need to pay, but you can also pay for the increased taxes you
feel that I ought to pay.
Get you checkbook out and write a $100,000 (or more) check to the IRS.
Better yet, send them cash.
Just send $100,000 in cash to the IRS with no return address on your
envelope. We can blindly trust
our government to efficiently put this money to good use, right? The
government has always had
excellent programs that help people and they always run their programs
in the financial black.

Of course, I'm kidding. But people saying that we need more taxes is
like Hollywood telling everybody
that we need more taxes during an election year. Wesley Snipes, we
need to raise taxes, don't we?
If Hollywood truly wanted to pay for more taxes, why is California is
such bad shape? Why don't they just open up their wallets and pay off
the deficiet that California is strapped with?
People, open your eyes.



Reply from: jim
Date: 30 Jun 2009, 03:03
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther...



Kruse wrote:
>
> On Jun 29, 5:59 pm, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote:
> > Doesn't sound like you know much about how any of this really works. A
> > increased gas tax (or tax direct on oil) would spur new research for
> > other forms of transportation.
>
> Currently the gas tax is way too low to
>
> <snip>
>
> Tell you what. If gas taxes are too low, not only can you pay for the
> increased taxes that you feel
> that YOU need to pay, but you can also pay for the increased taxes you
> feel that I ought to pay.

I'm not going to pay your taxes, but you seem to have no problem with
dumping your taxes on future generations.



> Get you checkbook out and write a $100,000 (or more) check to the IRS.
> Better yet, send them cash.
> Just send $100,000 in cash to the IRS with no return address on your
> envelope. We can blindly trust
> our government to efficiently put this money to good use, right? The
> government has always had
> excellent programs that help people and they always run their programs
> in the financial black.

That is right the US government did that for 200 years . Up until 28
years ago the federal government was not wildly spending beyond its
means.





> Of course, I'm kidding. But people saying that we need more taxes is
> like Hollywood telling everybody
> that we need more taxes during an election year. Wesley Snipes, we
> need to raise taxes, don't we?
> If Hollywood truly wanted to pay for more taxes, why is California is
> such bad shape? Why don't they just open up their wallets and pay off
> the deficiet that California is strapped with?
> People, open your eyes.

California will pay - their party is now over.

-jim

Reply from: Kruse
Date: 30 Jun 2009, 12:35
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther...

On Jun 29, 9:03 pm, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote:

> I'm not going to pay your taxes, but you seem to have no problem with
> dumping your taxes on future generations.

You had to reply without reading what I said. You are posting just to
be heard.
I am NOT in favor of dumping this on future generation. Like most
state budgets,
we need to balance our books. Our national government, (both parties)
hasn't
balanced a budget for quite a few years, and I don't think they ever
will. Their
attitude is to just print up more money.
However, when somebody says that our taxes are too low, they are
usually being
a hypocrite. If they really believed that, why don't they just send
their cash to the IRS?
The government obviously will spend it wisely, correct? I mean,
they've always done it
in the past, correct?
A few months ago, Hollywood wanted a president that would openly raise
their taxes.
How many of them now are opening up their checkbook to pay off the
pathetic budget
of California?
Anybody who says that we need to raise our taxes is a hypocrite, pure
and simple.
If you disagree with me, how much have you freely given to the IRS?
And when you
get your tax rebate every year, please don't cash it. Just frame it
and hang it on the wall.
Yea, right.

Reply from: jim
Date: 30 Jun 2009, 14:48
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther...



Kruse wrote:
>
> On Jun 29, 9:03 pm, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote:
>
> > I'm not going to pay your taxes, but you seem to have no problem with
> > dumping your taxes on future generations.
>
> You had to reply without reading what I said. You are posting just to
> be heard.
> I am NOT in favor of dumping this on future generation. Like most
> state budgets,

If you are not in favor of paying the tax then you are in favor of
making future generations pay taxes. Somebody will end up pay one way or
the other.

Economists have been arguing for years that the increased national debt
isn't a problem because the GDP was growing along with the debt. The GDP
is no longer growing and it is now headed rapidly downward and the
national debt is rising faster than ever. What are the economist saying
now - they are too scared shitless to say much of anything. They are
like everybody else they have their heads buried in the sand and are
hoping that some miracle will happen.

The current economic downturn was triggered by rising oil prices. The
last time that happened in the 70's it took 25 years for the economy to
fully recover. This time the economic downturn is worse. Even if the
supply and price of oil can be stabilized and the economy put back on
track, this is all going to inevitably happen again some time in the
future as long as the economy is based on cheap oil. Even if we pull our
asses out of the fire this time at some point in the future this course
is going to be fatal.

The only reasonable solution if you don't believe a miracle is coming
is to apply a heavy tax on every barrel of oil that the oil companies
process. That will not only balance the budget it will force the economy
to find new ways to survive. New ways that are hopefully more
sustainable because it should be obvious to everyone by now that the
current economy based on cheap oil is not sustainable.

Remember we are asking future generations to pay our current debts and
that future generation won't have the benefit of an economy run on cheap
oil. If they have a prosperous economy at all ( you have to be an
optimist to believe that) it will be because they have managed to do it
some other way without cheap oil. If we expect they can do it why is it
asking so much to expect we can do it?

-jim


> we need to balance our books. Our national government, (both parties)
> hasn't
> balanced a budget for quite a few years, and I don't think they ever
> will. Their
> attitude is to just print up more money.
> However, when somebody says that our taxes are too low, they are
> usually being
> a hypocrite. If they really believed that, why don't they just send
> their cash to the IRS?

There



> The government obviously will spend it wisely, correct? I mean,
> they've always done it
> in the past, correct?
> A few months ago, Hollywood wanted a president that would openly raise
> their taxes.
> How many of them now are opening up their checkbook to pay off the
> pathetic budget
> of California?
> Anybody who says that we need to raise our taxes is a hypocrite, pure
> and simple.
> If you disagree with me, how much have you freely given to the IRS?
> And when you
> get your tax rebate every year, please don't cash it. Just frame it
> and hang it on the wall.
> Yea, right.

Reply from: fred
Date: 30 Jun 2009, 03:21
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther...

Kruse <kruse@kansas,net > wrote in
news:33515974-8d5c-491c-8865-c9ee4cc36b8e@x3g2000yqa.googlegroups,com :

> On Jun 29, 5:59 pm, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote:
>>         Doesn't sound like you know much about how any of this re

> Of course, I'm kidding. But people saying that we need more taxes is
> like Hollywood telling everybody
> that we need more taxes during an election year. Wesley Snipes, we
> need to raise taxes, don't we?
> If Hollywood truly wanted to pay for more taxes, why is California is
> such bad shape? Why don't they just open up their wallets and pay off
> the deficiet that California is strapped with?
> People, open your eyes.
>
So you think that California is in bad shape because they have too much
money to spend on anything. Interesting that they're in deficit right now
then isn't it? In fact Arnold had Gray Davis Kicked out for the very same
problem *he* has right now - he's running on a deficit. without actually
*looking* at the budget for California (which you obviously haven't, but
then neither have I, I have no reason to - I don't live there) you just
can't say. Maybe Arnold's giving multi-million dollar kickbacks to all the
men who's wifes he chatted up. Who knows? The fact is that you have
cheaper gasoline in the US than we do here in Canada despite the fact that
we have more oil production per year and the largest oil reserves in the
world. There has been far to much sucking up to the oil companies since
the 1970's. They haven't built *one* gas refinery since then. That's how
they keep the price up there. Take a look at what gas costs in Saudi
Arabia - $0.50 a gallon last I heard.



Reply from: Kruse
Date: 30 Jun 2009, 12:38
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther...

On Jun 29, 9:21 pm, fred <f...@bedrock.rock> wrote:

> So you think that California is in bad shape because they have too much
> money to spend on anything.

I posted because a lot of people say that we need to raise our taxes,
especially
the hollywood elite. How many of them are opening up their checkbooks
to
help California now? None.
Some people say we need to raise taxes on gasoline. Why not just send
a check
to the IRS (or favorite government of their choice) and write them a
check?
Oh, wait. They want somebody ELSE to pay for it.
Fred, this seems to be the favorite choice of word for you, some I'm
going to give it
back to you.
Idiot.

Reply from: Kruse
Date: 30 Jun 2009, 13:07
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther...

On Jun 29, 8:21 pm, fred <f...@bedrock.rock> wrote:

Take a look at what gas costs in Saudi
> Arabia - $0.50 a gallon last I heard.


One more thing, Fred. When was the last time you actually gave advice
on how to fix a car?
It's all "last I heard" or you jump in when it gets political or when
there are flames.
Are you qualified to give technical advice, like the name of this
group implies?
Ask you mom and dad if you can go outside to check the air in the
tires of their car.
It will be a start. Maybe next week dad will let you open up the hood.
Make sure you put on some sunblock. 16 hours a day on the computer
gets you
pretty pale.


Reply from: Scott Dorsey
Date: 30 Jun 2009, 13:33
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther...

In article <Xns9C39D8313DCCEfred@127.0.0.1>, fred <fred@bedrock.rock> wrote:
>So you think that California is in bad shape because they have too much
>money to spend on anything. Interesting that they're in deficit right now
>then isn't it? In fact Arnold had Gray Davis Kicked out for the very same
>problem *he* has right now - he's running on a deficit. without actually
>*looking* at the budget for California (which you obviously haven't, but
>then neither have I, I have no reason to - I don't live there) you just
>can't say.

I have looked at the budget for California, and the problem in California
sad to say is that it's a case of direct democracy gone horribly wrong.

It is very, very easy to get a referendum on the ballot in California,
and when you get a referendum on the ballot that looks like it will be
of benefit to people, people will vote in favor of it.

California is now burdened with a huge number of expenses that were
specifically approved by the taxpayers, and which have to be funded.
These are programs that cannot be shut down or reduced without another
referendum to get rid of them, and NOBODY will ever vote in favor of
getting rid of a program.

It's absolutely crazy, and Arnold knew what he was inherited. He's got
a lot of expenses that come out of his budget, but which he has absolutely
no control over. It has absolutely nothing to do with the problem that
the Federal government has, thank God. If the Federal government had
to deal with this kind of uncontrollable expense, we would all be a lot
worse off than we are now, even.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Reply from: jim
Date: 30 Jun 2009, 14:55
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther...



Scott Dorsey wrote:

>
> It's absolutely crazy, and Arnold knew what he was inherited. He's got
> a lot of expenses that come out of his budget, but which he has absolutely
> no control over. It has absolutely nothing to do with the problem that
> the Federal government has, thank God. If the Federal government had
> to deal with this kind of uncontrollable expense, we would all be a lot
> worse off than we are now, even.

Really it is the same problem the federl government has. The only
difference is that California isn't allowed to by law to defer the
problem as the federal government is allowed to. That simply means that
California needs to deal with it here and now. The federal government
can wait till it gets much bigger and much worse before it is forced to
deal with it.

-jim

Reply from: Scott Dorsey
Date: 30 Jun 2009, 16:34
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther...

jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> It's absolutely crazy, and Arnold knew what he was inherited. He's got
>> a lot of expenses that come out of his budget, but which he has absolutely
>> no control over. It has absolutely nothing to do with the problem that
>> the Federal government has, thank God. If the Federal government had
>> to deal with this kind of uncontrollable expense, we would all be a lot
>> worse off than we are now, even.
>
>Really it is the same problem the federl government has. The only
>difference is that California isn't allowed to by law to defer the
>problem as the federal government is allowed to. That simply means that
>California needs to deal with it here and now. The federal government
>can wait till it gets much bigger and much worse before it is forced to
>deal with it.

Nahh. In the Federal government, the folks in Congress can actually sit
down and say "we aren't going to pay for these things." I know, it's hard
to imagine them doing so, but it could happen.

In California, they can't do that. They have enormous expenses that the
governor and the state legislature _cannot_ stop without changing the state
constitution.

The Federal government has problems, but it's _nothing_ like what California
has.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Reply from: E. Meyer
Date: 30 Jun 2009, 18:10
Re: U.S. FUEL "ECONOMY" Is Way, Way In The Future! If Not Farther...




On 6/29/09 5:59 PM, in article jqednR-chfz62tTXnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@bright,net ,
"jim" <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote:

>
>
> "E. Meyer" wrote:
>>
>> On 6/29/09 12:00 PM, in article
>> 67408118-6389-4b57-b512-8ece665e9727@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups,com , "ben91932"
>> <benteaches@gmail,com > wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 29, 8:40 am, Kyle Schwitters <slipuva...@yahoo,com > wrote:
>>>> Forget "electric" cars for at least 15 years.
>>>>
>>>> Until then, it'll be gas-guzzlin' all the way!
>>>>
>>>> A one-dollar federal tax on gasoline would help solve the problem ...
>>>> but it won't happen here in SUV-land.
>>>
>>> I'd be happy to pay an extra dollar or two for gas if the proceeds
>>> went to alt fuels research directly.
>>> Oil has been subsidized for decades and we have underpaid for decades.
>>> Ben
>>
>> Utopian-esque thinking. That extra dollar or two would go to this, that, or
>> the other politically correct welfare program instead, just like the gas tax
>> does.
>
> Doesn't sound like you know much about how any of this really works. A
> increased gas tax (or tax direct on oil) would spur new research for
> other forms of transportation and research for alternate energy sources
> even if not one penny of the collected tax went to pay for that
> research. That is it could be used to pay nations current bills instead
> of shamelessly making future generations pay those bills and at the same
> time encourage research in alternate fuels.

I'm not interested in starting another flame war in the midst of this one,
but ... You can't possibly be that naïve. If the money is not being fed
directly into research projects, they simply are not going to happen. Surely
we have enough history by now to prove that point.

>
> Your information on where the gas tax is currently being spent is wrong
> also. The current tax on oil in the US is much lower than Europe or
> Japan and it is designed to facilitate one thing - use of oil. And right
> now every penny of the tax goes to subsidize oil powered transportation
> and nothing else. Currently the gas tax is way too low to even fully
> fund the maintenance of the nation's highway system as a result much of
> the money spent on highways is now coming out of general revenue funds.
>
>
Yeah, well, the gas tax is SUPPOSED to be used to build & maintain highways.
Sort of makes my point, doesn't it.


> -jim



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Thread:
   E. Meyer
    jim
     Kruse
      jim
       Kruse
        jim
      fred
       Kruse
       Kruse
       Scott Dorsey
        jim
         Scott Dorsey
     E. Meyer
      jim
       E. Meyer
        jim
         Roger Blake
          jim
           Roger Blake
            HLS
             E. Meyer
              Roger Blake
               jim
             Roger Blake
              HLS
              Scott Dorsey
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