'Natural wine' ?

Re: 'Natural wine' ?


Thanks for your comments Mike, and for taking the time to have a look
at the site.

You are right that there is nothing, in princple, to prevent you from
producing a very natural wine on a large vineyard or in large
quantities. Nor to prevent a very large company from producing some of
its wines in this way. It's a question of method rather than size or
ownership. In practice I think this is unlikely to happen, but that's
a slightly separate issue.

The only part of your post that I would really take issue with is
this :

> This is actually not bad and a lot better than the lesvinnaturels.org
> site, but unfortunately you will find that most of the winemakers that
> regularly meet in France under the "natural" label do not meet these
> criteria. And in the absence of a means for independently certifying
> that these criteria are met, the whole thing is meaningless.

I think the absence of independent certification makes things
difficult, but not meaningless. You can't simply go to 'natural wine'
fair and assume that all of the wines you find there are naturally
made.

Instead, you have to be clear about what you mean by natural wine and
do everything you can to ensure that the wines you sell as 'natural'
meet your own definition. That means working only with winemakers whom
you know and trust and have seen at work. Of course, it is still
possible for someone to fool you. But that's a risk that you have to
accept.

Until there is achange in the law, either to establish a sensible
definition of organic wine or to make it necessary to label wine with
it's additives and means of production, that's all you can do. But
it's still worth doing.

Thanks again for your interest.

Oliver Morgan

http :// www .morethanorganic,com /

Re: 'Natural wine' ?

oli@morethanorganic,com wrote:
> The only part of your post that I would really take issue with is
> this :
>
>> This is actually not bad and a lot better than the lesvinnaturels.org
>> site, but unfortunately you will find that most of the winemakers that
>> regularly meet in France under the "natural" label do not meet these
>> criteria. And in the absence of a means for independently certifying
>> that these criteria are met, the whole thing is meaningless.
>
> I think the absence of independent certification makes things
> difficult, but not meaningless. You can't simply go to 'natural wine'
> fair and assume that all of the wines you find there are naturally
> made.

That was my point. Why not? If I go to a fair that claims to be about
"natural wines", then I would expect all present to abide by a set of
rules.

> Instead, you have to be clear about what you mean by natural wine and
> do everything you can to ensure that the wines you sell as 'natural'
> meet your own definition.

As stated, I think the rules on your website are as good a definitioon
as any I have seen. Why not have all participants sign a contract and
establish some means of verifying compliance? You cannot have each
winemaker make up his own rules, this is a real problem and lowers the
credibility of the whole "movement".

That means working only with winemakers whom
> you know and trust and have seen at work.


> Until there is achange in the law, either to establish a sensible
> definition of organic wine or to make it necessary to label wine with
> it's additives and means of production, that's all you can do. But
> it's still worth doing.

The law will not change if the movement remains in a "classified" mode
reserved for the few wine nuts that can develop a trusting relationship
with their winemaking friends. The law will not change unless you get
structured and present credible guarantees.

In an ideal world all future wine production will be "natural" according
to a set of clear and reasonable rules. Winemakers would be free to
experiment beyond the rules (for example without adding sulfites at
all), but they must bear in mind that unless their wine is also good and
reliable, they will fail. Shipping a bottle that has a 50/50 chance of
reaching its customer either refermented or terminally oxydized or
vinegary is a sign of lack of respect for your customer.

My favourite wines are of the "natural" type by your own definitions.
These wines require great skill to produce and present no significant
defects. While I find the folksy atmosphere of the natural fairs warm
and lots of fun, I think that some of those winemakers lack the skill
and discipline required to make a good stable natural wine.




--
Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
email link http :// www .tommasi.org/mymail

Re: 'Natural wine' ?

This thread cross posted to rec.crafts.winemaking; from a winemaking
standpoint I'm not sure I followed the logic of natural wines when the
weather doesn't cooperate with the vineyard. In your definitions it
said natural wines contained no added acids so I'm wondering how they
will pull this off in hot years. Grapes are finicky, at the small
amount of sulfite you are stating this wine may contain the longevity
of the wine might depend on acidity. Lower acid wines may go off on
you quicker than higher acid wines.

I applaud your efforts; I'm big on minimal intervention myself but do
use acids and sulfites when the raw materials call for them. I don't
own my own vineyard. This position on acids seems to limit your
growers to very predictable climates and very predictable vines. I'm
not saying it's impossible, just harder. They will probably be
blending wines of varied acid levels due to ripeness which may work
out very well on some varieties; less well with others. They will be
less apt to pick a whole vineyard at once also, just picking areas at
optimum ripeness. None of that is bad, it's actually great for the
wine. You just need a lot more intervention in the vineyard, that is
all.
I thought this was a biodynamic thread originally, I see it's not.

Joe

On May 9, 3:05 am, o...@morethanorganic,com wrote:
> > http :// www .morethanorganic,com putsquite a good case for the
> > difference between 'natural' and 'organic' wines, but I can't help
> > feeling it's just smart way of selling their product.
>
> We're not yet selling a product, although we do intend to start to
> start importing later this year. At the moment the site is purely
> informational. You can find our position on 'natural wine' as a term
> in the section 'Wine terminology' ( http :// www .morethanorganic,com /wine-
> terminology).
>
> Obviously, we don't agree with the 'vinegar' argument, principallcan given my starting point, you are trying to get your grapes right
> because, as Joe Dressner points out, there is a group of winemakers
> within France who describe themselves in this way, as well as cavistes
> and restaurants who specialise in 'vin naturel'. They even have a
> website ( http :// www .lesvinsnaturels.org/). We need a way to describe
> these wines in English and 'natural wine' seems like the most sensible
> translation. I suppose another option would be to adopt the French
> term. Dressner himself prefers 'real wine' I think.
>
> The other reason the term is useful, within the EU at least, is the
> mess the law is currently in over organic and biodynamic wine.
> Winemakers have effectively been forced to find an alternative because
> the term 'organic wine' is illegal and the term 'wine made from
> organically grown grapes' is not strict enough. There are plenty of
> wines made industrially from organically grown grapes.
>
> A bigger problem is agreeing exactly what qualifies as 'natural wine'.
> Until that's done, you can't get a system of certfication running. Our
> attempt at a definition is here ( http :// www .morethanorganic,com /
> definition-of-natural-wine) but it should be seen as just that, an
> attempt. There's another one, fairly similar, on wikipedia ( http ://
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural wine).
>
> Incidentally, how did you find morethanorganic ? It's only about a
> month old and is still teething really. Nor is it set in stone, so any
> feedback would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Oliver Morgan http :// www .morethanorganic,com /