are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

Some maker literature extolls the virtues of forged high carbon non-
stainless steel utensils (including knives) over stainless steel
utensils/knives even if the company makes utensils out of both kinds
of steel. One of the points the different companies seem to have in
common is that they claim forged high-carbon non-stainless steel
knives sharpen up faster and sharper than forged stainless steel
knives. I've never seen literature from companies making forged
stainless steel knives which counters this claim. So I'm trying to ask
a few simple questions

#1) Do forged high carbon non-stainless steel knives have some
property that allows them to be sharpened "sharper", or for a given
sharpness, do they sharpen faster?

#2) If so is this because for some reason forged high carbon non-
stainless steel knives are softer than forged stainless steel knives
or perhaps is stainless steel harder in general than non-stainless
steel (this should be considered generally across comparable quality
knives and I'm not seeking the exception that always exists), or do
some kinds of forged non-stainless steels take an edge better than
stainless steels (again generally)?

#3) Are multilayer forged high carbon non-stainless steels (like
Damascus or folded) so different they could actually be much harder
than comparable stainless steels or one layer non-stainless steels and
more difficult or time-consuming to sharpen or less able to be
sharpened ultra-sharp?

#4) Is there any general rule-of-thumb about forged non-stainless
steel vs forged stainless steel utensils that would make one better
than the other (EXCEPT for the non-rusting stain resistance of
stainless steel)? Once a knife, serving fork or spoon is ultra-stiff,
there doesn't seem to be other properties that are important (except
for specialty utensils like filleting knives etc). But taking a heavy
cleaver as an example, what could make a forged stainless steel
cleaver better than a non-stainless steel cleaver or vice versa, metal-
wise?

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

tomtgradeczek@yahoo,com wrote:
> Some maker literature extolls the virtues of forged high carbon non-
> stainless steel utensils (including knives) over stainless steel

Maybe you should try rec.knives or rec.crafts.metalworking or
net.crafts.metalworking.general, or sci.engr.metallurgy or .... This is a
general food equipment NG.

--
Dave
www .davebbq,com

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

I'm only interested in this kind of information about kitchen/cooking
knives and none other. Since this seems to be the group concerned with
utensils used for cooking food, I'd be interested in the opinions of
someone who works for a kitchen knife company like Wusthof, Sabatier,
AG Russell, Chicago Cutlery, Ontario Knife Co. or Victornox. Even
someone whose trade involved sharpening knives for restaurants could
help answer these questions. Or maybe there is a butcher out there
with the right knowledge. That's why I'm asking here. If you see the
flame space-wasting that occurred when I asked about cross-posting to
multiple usenet groups in rec.food.cooking, I'd prefer to see what
people have to say about this subject here. There is so much space
wasting that occurs here with off-point posting, I prefer to present
these questions one usenet group at a time.

On Mar 9, 8:07 pm, "Dave Bugg" <davebu...@yahoo,com > wrote:
> tomtgradec...@yahoo,com wrote:
> > Some maker literature extolls the virtues of forged high carbon non-
> > stainless steel utensils (including knives) over stainless steel
>
> Maybe you should try rec.knives or rec.crafts.metalworking or
> net.crafts.metalworking.general, or sci.engr.metallurgy or .... This is a
> general food equipment NG.
>
> --
> Davewww .davebbq,com

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

tomtgradeczek@yahoo,com wrote:
> I'm only interested in this kind of information about kitchen/cooking
> knives and none other. Since this seems to be the group concerned with
> utensils used for cooking food, .... snip

Look, you top-posting numbnuts, this is a food equipment group. Most of what
gets talked about is equipment, not utensils. You can ask about specialized
kitchen knife construction and metallurgy stuff all you want. I was pointing
out that there are newsgroups that are devoted to knife and blade
construction, including kitchen knives WHICH ARE KNIVES. The guys who are
most fanatic about knives hang out there.

As to cross posting, WTF are you yammering on about. You don't need to
crosspost. Just copy your text, then re-paste it into a post in whatever
other newsgroup you want. Why do you need to crosspost to do that?

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels


"Dave Bugg" <davebugg2@yahoo,com > wrote in message
news:PpoIh.192$y52.166@newsfe04.lga...
> tomtgradeczek@yahoo,com wrote:
>> Some maker literature extolls the virtues of forged high carbon non-
>> stainless steel utensils (including knives) over stainless steel
>
> Maybe you should try rec.knives or rec.crafts.metalworking or
> net.crafts.metalworking.general, or sci.engr.metallurgy or .... This is a
> general food equipment NG.
>
> Dave
>
>
I don't think your comment is appropriate. Carbon, vs High Carbon, vs
Stainless knives is a very appropriate subject on this NG.

Kent

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

Kent Hagen wrote:
> "Dave Bugg" <davebugg2@yahoo,com > wrote in message
> news:PpoIh.192$y52.166@newsfe04.lga...
>> tomtgradeczek@yahoo,com wrote:
>>> Some maker literature extolls the virtues of forged high carbon non-
>>> stainless steel utensils (including knives) over stainless steel
>>
>> Maybe you should try rec.knives or rec.crafts.metalworking or
>> net.crafts.metalworking.general, or sci.engr.metallurgy or .... This is a
>> general food equipment NG.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
> I don't think your comment is appropriate. Carbon, vs High Carbon, vs
> Stainless knives is a very appropriate subject on this NG.

Sure my comment was appropriate. No one said the topic couldn't be discussed
here. I merely pointed out that as a general equipment newsgroup, someone
seeking specific information about knives might have additional luck at a
specific newsgroup dedicated to metals and knives.

Apology accepted.

--
Dave
www .davebbq,com

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels


<tomtgradeczek@yahoo,com > wrote in message
> #1) Do forged high carbon non-stainless steel knives have some
> property that allows them to be sharpened "sharper", or for a given
> sharpness, do they sharpen faster?

>
> #4) Is there any general rule-of-thumb about forged non-stainless
> steel vs forged stainless steel utensils that would make one better
> than the other (EXCEPT for the non-rusting stain resistance of
> stainless steel)?


Keep in mind, heat treating of the material is important and just because
one maker touts a particular alloy it does not mean it is a good knife.

As a rule, the carbon steel knives can take a sharper edge, but they have to
be sharpened more frequently than high carbon stainless. They don't look as
pretty either. A true full stainless steel blade usually looks pretty but
won't cut for crap as it will not take a good edge.

There are other properties that make knives good or bad. Tripe rivet
handles take more time and cost more than molded handles. full tangs use
more material, there is stamped versus forged, thickness of the material,
the alloy, and the heat treatment. Once you put all the right material
together, it has to feel good in your hand and be of a size you can readily
use for the task at hand.

Some of your questions require more metallurgical knowledge than I have so I
defer to others.

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

Thank you for those insights.

On Mar 9, 9:42 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" <e...@snet,net > wrote:
> <tomtgradec...@yahoo,com > wrote in message
> > #1) Do forged high carbon non-stainless steel knives have some
> > property that allows them to be sharpened "sharper", or for a given
> > sharpness, do they sharpen faster?
>
> > #4) Is there any general rule-of-thumb about forged non-stainless
> > steel vs forged stainless steel utensils that would make one better
> > than the other (EXCEPT for the non-rusting stain resistance of
> > stainless steel)?
>
> Keep in mind, heat treating of the material is important and just because
> one maker touts a particular alloy it does not mean it is a good knife.
>
> As a rule, the carbon steel knives can take a sharper edge, but they have to
> be sharpened more frequently than high carbon stainless. They don't look as
> pretty either. A true full stainless steel blade usually looks pretty but
> won't cut for crap as it will not take a good edge.
>
> There are other properties that make knives good or bad. Tripe rivet
> handles take more time and cost more than molded handles. full tangs use
> more material, there is stamped versus forged, thickness of the material,
> the alloy, and the heat treatment. Once you put all the right material
> together, it has to feel good in your hand and be of a size you can readily
> use for the task at hand.
>
> Some of your questions require more metallurgical knowledge than I have so I
> defer to others.

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

> As a rule, the carbon steel knives can take a sharper edge, but they have to
> be sharpened more frequently than high carbon stainless. They don't look as
> pretty either.

Here is a carbon steel knife that I used very, very often for 20
years, never sharpened. Sharper than any Wusthof knives I owned (a
full set), which I admit never were sharpened professionally, but only
on a stone by my husband and a steel used. http :// tinypic,com :80/2w6ezvd.jpg

The edge was sharp all those years, and the only reason I don't use it
any longer is the handle has split. I bought it in San Francisco and
have written for a replacement, but they cannot tell what blade it is
by picture (single or double or something like that.) Perhaps if I
wanted I could send it to them, but I have not and probably will not.
The ones I have seen in stores, for some reason, are not comparable to
mine in quality, though.

There are some carbon knives, http :// fantes,com /carbon.htm#products
that look pretty darned good to me and the price is certainly right.
Only problem is that most/some are unavailable.
Any comments on these knives, by anyone on this group, are welcome.

Tom, it's difficult to know sometimes just what group to post to, to
get direct answers. I know you realize that.
Dee

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

Dee Dee wrote:
>> As a rule, the carbon steel knives can take a sharper edge, but they
>> have to be sharpened more frequently than high carbon stainless.
>> They don't look as pretty either.
>
> Here is a carbon steel knife that I used very, very often for 20
> years, never sharpened. Sharper than any Wusthof knives I owned (a
> full set), which I admit never were sharpened professionally, but only
> on a stone by my husband and a steel used.
> http :// tinypic,com :80/2w6ezvd.jpg
>
> The edge was sharp all those years, and the only reason I don't use it
> any longer is the handle has split. I bought it in San Francisco and
> have written for a replacement, but they cannot tell what blade it is
> by picture (single or double or something like that.) Perhaps if I
> wanted I could send it to them, but I have not and probably will not.
> The ones I have seen in stores, for some reason, are not comparable to
> mine in quality, though.
>
> There are some carbon knives, http :// fantes,com /carbon.htm#products
> that look pretty darned good to me and the price is certainly right.
> Only problem is that most/some are unavailable.
> Any comments on these knives, by anyone on this group, are welcome.
>
> Tom, it's difficult to know sometimes just what group to post to, to
> get direct answers. I know you realize that.
> Dee

I own a bunch of Japanese made kitchen knives made with a variety of
different metals and ranging from RC 59 - 64 (hardness scale). I have found
that my high end carbon knives/cleaver not only take a sharper edge but also
keep it longer than stainless with a few exceptions. The main difference I
find though between stainless and carbon is not but the required up keep.
For example with stainless if you use it and leave it sitting on the cutting
board it isn't going to stain or rust. With carbon I wash and dry as soon as
I'm done using it. I also find that some carbons will stain (patina) which
can be good as it tends to stop rust but can transfer food tastes in some
cases.

There are other types of knives that I own are the best of both worlds in
many ways in that they are clad. The Japanese have been cladding knives for
a very long time and the kitchen type knives made today often have stainless
over a carbon blade. The only part that can stain is the sharpened edge with
little or no food taste transfer. Most of what I own I purchased from
Japanese Chef's Knife but also some custom makers such as Takeda, Watanabe
and Carter.

It really comes down to the actual steel used to make the knife, heat
treating and the blade geometry. Not all stainless is equal nor is carbon
steels. European knives tend to be between RC 57 - 58 so they are softer
than the typical Japanese blade. Due to this the European knife tends to be
thicker with more bevel flatter bevel angles rarely going below a total
bevel or 40 deg. Japanese blades being harder their knives are thinner with
more acute angles often around a total of 20 - 30 deg. The harder knives cut
better but can't take the abuse the European knives can due to this harder
metal which will chip easier.


--

Joe Cilinceon

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

Thank you for the post below Dee Dee. The smallish cleaver you use
looks interesting but you say you've never sharpened it? What brand is
it and what type of steel does the maker say it is made of (or is it
steel)? I guess that the discoloration is oil gall right? I've heard
deer processors say they use oil gall to coat a good carbon steel
blade but those private abbatoirs may not be representative. The
little Sabatier paring knife looks very nice. Thanks for the
reference. Sabatier says their high carbon knives sharpen more easily
and take a sharper edge, but they aren't really clear on why their
knife edge does that. I have some Ontario, 1776 and Case high carbon
steel knives and cleavers (the Ontario cleaver is the best one I have
because of the edge it takes, it makes fine, thin fast-chopping easy
but it's taller than the one you show. Yours seems thicker at the top
edge so maybe that gives it the same weight and feel). Thank you

On Mar 10, 9:59 am, "Dee Dee" <deedo...@shentel,net > wrote:
> > As a rule, the carbon steel knives can take a sharper edge, but they have to
> > be sharpened more frequently than high carbon stainless. They don't look as
> > pretty either.
>
> Here is a carbon steel knife that I used very, very often for 20
> years, never sharpened. Sharper than any Wusthof knives I owned (a
> full set), which I admit never were sharpened professionally, but only
> on a stone by my husband and a steel used. http :// tinypic,com :80/2w6ezvd.jpg
>
> The edge was sharp all those years, and the only reason I don't use it
> any longer is the handle has split. I bought it in San Francisco and
> have written for a replacement, but they cannot tell what blade it is
> by picture (single or double or something like that.) Perhaps if I
> wanted I could send it to them, but I have not and probably will not.
> The ones I have seen in stores, for some reason, are not comparable to
> mine in quality, though.
>
> There are some carbon knives, http :// fantes,com /carbon.htm#products
> that look pretty darned good to me and the price is certainly right.
> Only problem is that most/some are unavailable.
> Any comments on these knives, by anyone on this group, are welcome.
>
> Tom, it's difficult to know sometimes just what group to post to, to
> get direct answers. I know you realize that.
> Dee

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

On Mar 10, 10:46 pm, tomtgradec...@yahoo,com wrote:
The smallish cleaver you use
> looks interesting but you say you've never sharpened it?

No, it was never touched with stone, nor steel as I recall. It would
still cut my finger off. I don't think I ever used it for anything
but veggies, though, and it cut a lot of them over the years before I
stopped using it. I've seen a Joyce Chen knife that is designed
similarly; however, it is carbon-stainless. Mine was carbon and it
got the ugly discoloration right away. This never bothered me. I
never tried cleaning it with anything.

I bought a similar looking knife that had a wider blade and it was
carbon stainless. DH liked it and swore by it, but to me it wouldn't
cut thru butter. At the time I bought these two knives, I had started
out first with a couple of I guess you'd call "Asian" cleavers; they
were too clumsy for my hands. Also, new, they weren't as sharp as the
one you saw in the picture; so the one in the picture was the one that
was used everyday.

I got this particular knife at Soko Hardware, but they weren't sure
about it from the picture.

http :// travel.yahoo,com /p-travelguide-2733494-soko_hardware_san_francisco-i

I loved that store.
Dee Dee

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

Dee Dee wrote:
> On Mar 10, 10:46 pm, tomtgradec...@yahoo,com wrote:
> The smallish cleaver you use
>> looks interesting but you say you've never sharpened it?
>
> No, it was never touched with stone, nor steel as I recall. It would
> still cut my finger off. I don't think I ever used it for anything
> but veggies, though, and it cut a lot of them over the years before I
> stopped using it. I've seen a Joyce Chen knife that is designed
> similarly; however, it is carbon-stainless. Mine was carbon and it
> got the ugly discoloration right away. This never bothered me. I
> never tried cleaning it with anything.
>
> I bought a similar looking knife that had a wider blade and it was
> carbon stainless. DH liked it and swore by it, but to me it wouldn't
> cut thru butter. At the time I bought these two knives, I had started
> out first with a couple of I guess you'd call "Asian" cleavers; they
> were too clumsy for my hands. Also, new, they weren't as sharp as the
> one you saw in the picture; so the one in the picture was the one that
> was used everyday.
>
> I got this particular knife at Soko Hardware, but they weren't sure
> about it from the picture.
>
> http :// travel.yahoo,com /p-travelguide-2733494-soko_hardware_san_francisco-i
>
> I loved that store.
> Dee Dee

By the way the knife you posted a picture of is called a Usuba. A single
bevel on the right side (right handed) or left side (left handed) with a
concave back or flat. These are designed for cutting veggies and excell at
pealing also. They are easy to sharpen once you know how to do it.

http :// www .knifeforums,com /forums/showtopic.php?tid/772696/ is a good way to
do it though a different type of knife it will sharpen the same way.

--

Joe Cilinceon

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

"Dee Dee" <deedovey@shentel,net > wrote:
> There are some carbon knives, http :// fantes,com /carbon.htm#products
> that look pretty darned good to me and the price is certainly right.
> Only problem is that most/some are unavailable.
> Any comments on these knives, by anyone on this group, are welcome.

I got my carbon steel knives from Professional Cutlery Direct
(www .cutlery,com ) that still sells some of the Sabatier knives.
Unfortunately they don's show up in the normal menus, but if you put
"Sabatier" in the search box, you will currently get 9 products. I got my
knives there (before they had a web site) about a decade ago.

Also, if you do a google search for "sabatier carbon steel knives" (without
the quotes), you will get several other sources, including this one:

http :// www .thebestthings,com /knives/sabatiercarbon.htm

Some of the ones listed are on back order, just like Fantes.

Just remembered another place, www .lacuisineus,com , that carries them. Look
under "slicing & dicing", French knives, and you will see a selection of
carbon steel knives. Make sure to click through all the pages (lower right
of product display box). This place is local to me, and I've bought other
products, but not knives, in their store (Alexandria, VA). I've never bought
through their web site, I've always gone into their physical store.

Be aware that there are multiple companies using the Sabatier name, and not
all Sabatier is made in France. The Sabatiers I have were made by two
different companies. One group was made by a company using the name "Cuisine
de France, Sabatier", while the other group was made by Thiers-Issard, which
uses the four star elephant logo along with the Sabatier name. The two
companies products in their carbon steel lines seem about equal to me.

As to the cleaver you have, cleaver is a very loose term. You did say
"Asian" cleaver in another post, and mentioned you used it for veggies and
such. Those cleavers are definitely not in the same category as the normal
cleavers, though they might have a similar shape. They are more like a knife
that has a blunt end rather than a pointed end. The blade angles are similar
to normal knives, and are meant for cutting softer foods. The normal
cleavers are much heavier, and have a very wide blade angle, meant for
splitting bones, etc. You are not going to cut anything with the blade of a
normal cleaver. The knife edge of an Asian cleaver (or a normal knife for
that matter) would break off with such use. I've got a normal cleaver made
of carbon steel from Sabatier that I use for chopping chicken parts into
small pieces for stock. I use a thick end grain chopping block when I am
doing that, and slam the cleaver down through the bones. This is definitely
a different operation than normal cutting with a knife.

Re: are forged high carbon non-stainless steels softer than forged stainless steels

wff_ng_7 wrote:
>
< cropped>

> As to the cleaver you have, cleaver is a very loose term. You did say
> "Asian" cleaver in another post, and mentioned you used it for
> veggies and such. Those cleavers are definitely not in the same
> category as the normal cleavers, though they might have a similar
> shape. They are more like a knife that has a blunt end rather than a
> pointed end. The blade angles are similar to normal knives, and are
> meant for cutting softer foods. The normal cleavers are much heavier,
> and have a very wide blade angle, meant for splitting bones, etc. You
> are not going to cut anything with the blade of a normal cleaver. The
> knife edge of an Asian cleaver (or a normal knife for that matter)
> would break off with such use. I've got a normal cleaver made of
> carbon steel from Sabatier that I use for chopping chicken parts into
> small pieces for stock. I use a thick end grain chopping block when I
> am doing that, and slam the cleaver down through the bones. This is
> definitely a different operation than normal cutting with a knife.

The Chinese chef's knife (Chukabochoor) often called a cleaver looks much
like a cleaver. The blade is usually about 8" long x 4" wide. These come in
3 basic versions, the thin cleaver has a very thin blade and is used for
slicing/dicing etc. The spine is rarely larger than 2mm and often smaller at
the end. The mid range cleaver has a little thicker blade and can be used
for slicing as well as cutting softer bones like duck or chicken. These tend
to be a little over 4mm to 2mm at the spine. The heavy cleaver is much like
a European cleaver in that the are thick and heavy and could probably cut
down a tree with one, though the shape is the same in all 3 cleavers listed.

The knife that you called a little Asian cleaver is like I posted earlier
called a Usaba and they come in 2 versions. The one you have and one that
has a tip something like a Santoku. There is another knife called a Nakiri
which is a western version of the Usaba. The main difference being it has a
thinner blade, flatter sides and is double edged. Most traditional Japanese
knives are single edged with a concave back. The Japanese also make Western
style knives but they often sharpen them at two different angles. In other
words the outside edge might be 15 degrees and the inside edge might be 9
degrees.

This is just for information and not a correction to any ones opinion.

--

Joe Cilinceon