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Questions about fermenting and pickling
Questions about fermenting and pickling
I've been trying lots of recipes from Linda Ziedrich's "The Joy of
Pickling." It took me awhile to overcome fear of food spoilage before
I trusted fermented foods that I tried making like sauerkraut and
kimchi. Before trying this, I would have thought any shredded veggies
that sat unrefrigerated for a few days would be unsafe to eat even if
they
didn't look or smell harmful. I don't worry about that anymore,
although I wonder if it's safe to sample fermenting foods in the
middle of the process.
In some of the recipes, Ziedrich suggests tasting the fermented foods
after a week or two to see if it's sour enough. In some recipes, she
hints that you can taste test them all through the process, although
she always gives a range when they should be finished. Is it only
safe
to taste these things after the end of the process, in the time frame
when it's nearly finished, or is it safe to taste them all along? I
realize that fermentation develops some organisms that kill botulinum
and toxic things, but I'm not sure if they start doing it within the
first few days, or only at the end of the process.
Another question I've had about fermentation is whether it develops
acid as it goes along. Obviously the flavor and juices change during
the process. Maybe I'm drawing a totally absurd parallel, but some
unfermented pickles are preserved by putting them in an acidic
solution like vinegar. I just wondered if fermentation creates acid
during the process, or if it's only preserved because of the
competing
organisms that kill harmful organisms.
Thanks,
Deidzoeb
[I posted this question on rec.food.cooking a few days ago and some
people recommended this group to me. Glad I found you!]
I've been trying lots of recipes from Linda Ziedrich's "The Joy of
Pickling." It took me awhile to overcome fear of food spoilage before
I trusted fermented foods that I tried making like sauerkraut and
kimchi. Before trying this, I would have thought any shredded veggies
that sat unrefrigerated for a few days would be unsafe to eat even if
they
didn't look or smell harmful. I don't worry about that anymore,
although I wonder if it's safe to sample fermenting foods in the
middle of the process.
In some of the recipes, Ziedrich suggests tasting the fermented foods
after a week or two to see if it's sour enough. In some recipes, she
hints that you can taste test them all through the process, although
she always gives a range when they should be finished. Is it only
safe
to taste these things after the end of the process, in the time frame
when it's nearly finished, or is it safe to taste them all along? I
realize that fermentation develops some organisms that kill botulinum
and toxic things, but I'm not sure if they start doing it within the
first few days, or only at the end of the process.
Another question I've had about fermentation is whether it develops
acid as it goes along. Obviously the flavor and juices change during
the process. Maybe I'm drawing a totally absurd parallel, but some
unfermented pickles are preserved by putting them in an acidic
solution like vinegar. I just wondered if fermentation creates acid
during the process, or if it's only preserved because of the
competing
organisms that kill harmful organisms.
Thanks,
Deidzoeb
[I posted this question on rec.food.cooking a few days ago and some
people recommended this group to me. Glad I found you!]
Re: Questions about fermenting and pickling
Deidzoeb wrote:
> I've been trying lots of recipes from Linda Ziedrich's "The Joy of
> Pickling." It took me awhile to overcome fear of food spoilage
Fermentation *is* "food spoilage.
It's controlled spoilage. What's yogurt, after all, except for rotten milk?
> before
> I trusted fermented foods that I tried making like sauerkraut and
> kimchi. Before trying this, I would have thought any shredded veggies
> that sat unrefrigerated for a few days would be unsafe to eat even
> if they didn't look or smell harmful. I don't worry about that
> anymore, although I wonder if it's safe to sample fermenting foods in
> the middle of the process.
Sure.
> In some of the recipes, Ziedrich suggests tasting the fermented foods
> after a week or two to see if it's sour enough. In some recipes, she
> hints that you can taste test them all through the process, although
> she always gives a range when they should be finished. Is it only
> safe to taste these things after the end of the process, in the time
> frame when it's nearly finished, or is it safe to taste them all
> along?
Yep.
> I realize that fermentation develops some organisms that kill
> botulinum and toxic things, but I'm not sure if they start doing it
> within the first few days, or only at the end of the process.
You might want to read up on botulism and botulinum. That's not a worry
in that process--botulism only develops in an oxygen-poor environment.
Here's a couple of sites with info:
The National Center for Home Food Preservation
http :// www .uga.edu/nchfp/
and
The National Food Safety Database
http :// www .agen.ufl.edu/~foodsaf/can1.html
> Another question I've had about fermentation is whether it develops
> acid as it goes along.
Yep.
> Obviously the flavor and juices change during
> the process. Maybe I'm drawing a totally absurd parallel, but some
> unfermented pickles are preserved by putting them in an acidic
> solution like vinegar. I just wondered if fermentation creates acid
> during the process, or if it's only preserved because of the
> competing organisms that kill harmful organisms.
Read the information at those links.
B/
>
> Thanks, Deidzoeb
>
> [I posted this question on rec.food.cooking a few days ago and some
> people recommended this group to me. Glad I found you!]
Deidzoeb wrote:
> I've been trying lots of recipes from Linda Ziedrich's "The Joy of
> Pickling." It took me awhile to overcome fear of food spoilage
Fermentation *is* "food spoilage.
It's controlled spoilage. What's yogurt, after all, except for rotten milk?
> before
> I trusted fermented foods that I tried making like sauerkraut and
> kimchi. Before trying this, I would have thought any shredded veggies
> that sat unrefrigerated for a few days would be unsafe to eat even
> if they didn't look or smell harmful. I don't worry about that
> anymore, although I wonder if it's safe to sample fermenting foods in
> the middle of the process.
Sure.
> In some of the recipes, Ziedrich suggests tasting the fermented foods
> after a week or two to see if it's sour enough. In some recipes, she
> hints that you can taste test them all through the process, although
> she always gives a range when they should be finished. Is it only
> safe to taste these things after the end of the process, in the time
> frame when it's nearly finished, or is it safe to taste them all
> along?
Yep.
> I realize that fermentation develops some organisms that kill
> botulinum and toxic things, but I'm not sure if they start doing it
> within the first few days, or only at the end of the process.
You might want to read up on botulism and botulinum. That's not a worry
in that process--botulism only develops in an oxygen-poor environment.
Here's a couple of sites with info:
The National Center for Home Food Preservation
http :// www .uga.edu/nchfp/
and
The National Food Safety Database
http :// www .agen.ufl.edu/~foodsaf/can1.html
> Another question I've had about fermentation is whether it develops
> acid as it goes along.
Yep.
> Obviously the flavor and juices change during
> the process. Maybe I'm drawing a totally absurd parallel, but some
> unfermented pickles are preserved by putting them in an acidic
> solution like vinegar. I just wondered if fermentation creates acid
> during the process, or if it's only preserved because of the
> competing organisms that kill harmful organisms.
Read the information at those links.
B/
>
> Thanks, Deidzoeb
>
> [I posted this question on rec.food.cooking a few days ago and some
> people recommended this group to me. Glad I found you!]
Re: Questions about fermenting and pickling
On Apr 9, 8:12 pm, Deidzoeb <deidz...@gmail,com > wrote:
> Another question I've had about fermentation is whether it develops
> acid as it goes along. Obviously the flavor and juices change during
> the process. Maybe I'm drawing a totally absurd parallel, but some
> unfermented pickles are preserved by putting them in an acidic
> solution like vinegar. I just wondered if fermentation creates acid
> during the process, or if it's only preserved because of the
> competing
> organisms that kill harmful organisms.
You've got it exactly. The bacteria "sour" it, which is producing acid
that makes it continually more inhospitable for other organisms to
grow in. I would imagine that there is some yeast fermentation going
on too, which initially would produce alcohol that bacteria would
later convert to vinegar.
I've dabbled with making yogurt, cheese, beer, wine, vinegar,
sauerkraut, and pickles, among other things - it's great fun. Now
starting in on fermented sausages as well. I have to say my sauerkraut
wasn't all that great, but I'll try again next time I get a box of
cabbage. I hear that late (winter) cabbage is the best for sauerkraut,
so perhaps I'll try that next time.
--Jeff
On Apr 9, 8:12 pm, Deidzoeb <deidz...@gmail,com > wrote:
> Another question I've had about fermentation is whether it develops
> acid as it goes along. Obviously the flavor and juices change during
> the process. Maybe I'm drawing a totally absurd parallel, but some
> unfermented pickles are preserved by putting them in an acidic
> solution like vinegar. I just wondered if fermentation creates acid
> during the process, or if it's only preserved because of the
> competing
> organisms that kill harmful organisms.
You've got it exactly. The bacteria "sour" it, which is producing acid
that makes it continually more inhospitable for other organisms to
grow in. I would imagine that there is some yeast fermentation going
on too, which initially would produce alcohol that bacteria would
later convert to vinegar.
I've dabbled with making yogurt, cheese, beer, wine, vinegar,
sauerkraut, and pickles, among other things - it's great fun. Now
starting in on fermented sausages as well. I have to say my sauerkraut
wasn't all that great, but I'll try again next time I get a box of
cabbage. I hear that late (winter) cabbage is the best for sauerkraut,
so perhaps I'll try that next time.
--Jeff
Re: Questions about fermenting and pickling
The salt is also a preservative!
JeffH wrote:
> On Apr 9, 8:12 pm, Deidzoeb <deidz...@gmail,com > wrote:
>> Another question I've had about fermentation is whether it develops
>> acid as it goes along. Obviously the flavor and juices change during
>> the process. Maybe I'm drawing a totally absurd parallel, but some
>> unfermented pickles are preserved by putting them in an acidic
>> solution like vinegar. I just wondered if fermentation creates acid
>> during the process, or if it's only preserved because of the
>> competing
>> organisms that kill harmful organisms.
>
> You've got it exactly. The bacteria "sour" it, which is producing acid
> that makes it continually more inhospitable for other organisms to
> grow in. I would imagine that there is some yeast fermentation going
> on too, which initially would produce alcohol that bacteria would
> later convert to vinegar.
>
> I've dabbled with making yogurt, cheese, beer, wine, vinegar,
> sauerkraut, and pickles, among other things - it's great fun. Now
> starting in on fermented sausages as well. I have to say my sauerkraut
> wasn't all that great, but I'll try again next time I get a box of
> cabbage. I hear that late (winter) cabbage is the best for sauerkraut,
> so perhaps I'll try that next time.
>
> --Jeff
>
The salt is also a preservative!
JeffH wrote:
> On Apr 9, 8:12 pm, Deidzoeb <deidz...@gmail,com > wrote:
>> Another question I've had about fermentation is whether it develops
>> acid as it goes along. Obviously the flavor and juices change during
>> the process. Maybe I'm drawing a totally absurd parallel, but some
>> unfermented pickles are preserved by putting them in an acidic
>> solution like vinegar. I just wondered if fermentation creates acid
>> during the process, or if it's only preserved because of the
>> competing
>> organisms that kill harmful organisms.
>
> You've got it exactly. The bacteria "sour" it, which is producing acid
> that makes it continually more inhospitable for other organisms to
> grow in. I would imagine that there is some yeast fermentation going
> on too, which initially would produce alcohol that bacteria would
> later convert to vinegar.
>
> I've dabbled with making yogurt, cheese, beer, wine, vinegar,
> sauerkraut, and pickles, among other things - it's great fun. Now
> starting in on fermented sausages as well. I have to say my sauerkraut
> wasn't all that great, but I'll try again next time I get a box of
> cabbage. I hear that late (winter) cabbage is the best for sauerkraut,
> so perhaps I'll try that next time.
>
> --Jeff
>
