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Thank you for the tip!
Thank you for the tip!
To somebody posting here: "Thank you!"
Some weeks (months?) back, somebody here posted about how they had such
excellent success with capturing the "sour", in sourdough. You'd mentioned
a starter you got from "King Arthur". Being one that's sought just that for
years (and NOT found it!), I ordered some directly from your post (sometime
in the second week of January).
What I'd neglected to consider and what I didn't know, was that KA sends
their starters "live" (everybody else sends dried crumbs)! I ordered it (as
well as a dozen other things), and then promptly left the PNW for the charms
(and warm, dry climate) of Quartzsite, Az Some days later my daughter sent
me an eMail that "another package" had arrived for me. Since she'd become
the "forwarder" of record for me...nothing much was thought of that. She
usually gathers our mail until it's a reasonable amount to send, and then
forwards it to us.
So, this "live" culture got sent to her from KA, then it spent a week or so
in her house waiting to get sent to me. She went on to send this to my mom
in Yuma, where it spent another week or so gathering dust while I found out
about it and scheduled a trip down there to pick it up. When I got back, it
spent a few days (probably closer to a week) waiting for me to "find it" and
take some kind of action.
When I actually got to "reading" my mail, I found the KA starter. Dismayed
over the time it took to get to me, I put it in the fridge while I rounded
up containers, flour, and water. Did that. Took it out and began to
culture it. The first 3-days weren't exactly anything to write home about.
But on the 4th day, it bloomed! And on the fifth day--today--I used it to
bake a loaf of my beloved SD bread.
The results were nothing short of amazing! My dear wife, not one with a
discerning sense of taste, found it "nicely sour!" I did too. Actually,
truth be told, the flavor was nothing short of outstanding! I've been
searching for the SD flavor I found in the bread that I got on the pier in
SF those many decades ago. Today, I found it.
To whom ever it was that posted that note: A great, big, "Thank you!"
You've made my century!
I've been baking SD for many years. I'd not yet found the "secret" for
getting the real SD flavor that I've been seeking. I was pretty sure that
getting to where I wanted to be was a matter of: starter, method, or flour.
I've tried just about every method, many starters, and most flours. I'd not
gotten even close! I knew it couldn't be: digital scales, any number of
tons of tiles, bannetons--no matter what kind of wood they were woven out
of, or microscopic temperature gradients.
While my "method" was pretty similar to what I've been doing for years, the
only real difference was the starter. Out here in the "outback", I use no
scales, thermometers, mixers, tiles, bannetons, or any of the other
"necessary" accoutrements that most posting here find so absolutely
necessary. Yet the bread was fantastic!
Thank you again, whom ever you are...
Dusty -- Comin' atcha via AMC9 from: N 33° 45' 30.2", W 114° 11' 17.6",
which is a
flatspot 3-washes north of BLM marker 811, north side of Plomosa Rd,
~2-miles east of US95, and ~6-miles north of Quartzsite, Az
To somebody posting here: "Thank you!"
Some weeks (months?) back, somebody here posted about how they had such
excellent success with capturing the "sour", in sourdough. You'd mentioned
a starter you got from "King Arthur". Being one that's sought just that for
years (and NOT found it!), I ordered some directly from your post (sometime
in the second week of January).
What I'd neglected to consider and what I didn't know, was that KA sends
their starters "live" (everybody else sends dried crumbs)! I ordered it (as
well as a dozen other things), and then promptly left the PNW for the charms
(and warm, dry climate) of Quartzsite, Az Some days later my daughter sent
me an eMail that "another package" had arrived for me. Since she'd become
the "forwarder" of record for me...nothing much was thought of that. She
usually gathers our mail until it's a reasonable amount to send, and then
forwards it to us.
So, this "live" culture got sent to her from KA, then it spent a week or so
in her house waiting to get sent to me. She went on to send this to my mom
in Yuma, where it spent another week or so gathering dust while I found out
about it and scheduled a trip down there to pick it up. When I got back, it
spent a few days (probably closer to a week) waiting for me to "find it" and
take some kind of action.
When I actually got to "reading" my mail, I found the KA starter. Dismayed
over the time it took to get to me, I put it in the fridge while I rounded
up containers, flour, and water. Did that. Took it out and began to
culture it. The first 3-days weren't exactly anything to write home about.
But on the 4th day, it bloomed! And on the fifth day--today--I used it to
bake a loaf of my beloved SD bread.
The results were nothing short of amazing! My dear wife, not one with a
discerning sense of taste, found it "nicely sour!" I did too. Actually,
truth be told, the flavor was nothing short of outstanding! I've been
searching for the SD flavor I found in the bread that I got on the pier in
SF those many decades ago. Today, I found it.
To whom ever it was that posted that note: A great, big, "Thank you!"
You've made my century!
I've been baking SD for many years. I'd not yet found the "secret" for
getting the real SD flavor that I've been seeking. I was pretty sure that
getting to where I wanted to be was a matter of: starter, method, or flour.
I've tried just about every method, many starters, and most flours. I'd not
gotten even close! I knew it couldn't be: digital scales, any number of
tons of tiles, bannetons--no matter what kind of wood they were woven out
of, or microscopic temperature gradients.
While my "method" was pretty similar to what I've been doing for years, the
only real difference was the starter. Out here in the "outback", I use no
scales, thermometers, mixers, tiles, bannetons, or any of the other
"necessary" accoutrements that most posting here find so absolutely
necessary. Yet the bread was fantastic!
Thank you again, whom ever you are...
Dusty -- Comin' atcha via AMC9 from: N 33° 45' 30.2", W 114° 11' 17.6",
which is a
flatspot 3-washes north of BLM marker 811, north side of Plomosa Rd,
~2-miles east of US95, and ~6-miles north of Quartzsite, Az
Re: Thank you for the tip!
On Feb 16, 10:08 pm, "Dusty da baker"
<BakerB...@innerREMOVETHISlodge,com > wrote:
> I've been baking SD for many years. I'd not yet found the "secret" for
> getting the real SD flavor that I've been seeking. I was pretty sure that
> getting to where I wanted to be was a matter of: starter, method, or flour.
> I've tried just about every method, many starters, and most flours. I'd not
> gotten even close! I knew it couldn't be: digital scales, any number of
> tons of tiles, bannetons--no matter what kind of wood they were woven out
> of, or microscopic temperature gradients.
So which process do you think KA employs to manufacture that
starter...
a product which has so impressed you?
a) yours... very casual measuring and temperature control...
b) rigorous determination of water ratios, specific time and
temperature controls...
You don't have to flame me. Just answer A or B <g>.
Will
On Feb 16, 10:08 pm, "Dusty da baker"
<BakerB...@innerREMOVETHISlodge,com > wrote:
> I've been baking SD for many years. I'd not yet found the "secret" for
> getting the real SD flavor that I've been seeking. I was pretty sure that
> getting to where I wanted to be was a matter of: starter, method, or flour.
> I've tried just about every method, many starters, and most flours. I'd not
> gotten even close! I knew it couldn't be: digital scales, any number of
> tons of tiles, bannetons--no matter what kind of wood they were woven out
> of, or microscopic temperature gradients.
So which process do you think KA employs to manufacture that
starter...
a product which has so impressed you?
a) yours... very casual measuring and temperature control...
b) rigorous determination of water ratios, specific time and
temperature controls...
You don't have to flame me. Just answer A or B <g>.
Will
Re: Thank you for the tip!
"Will" <waller.william@gmail,com > wrote in message
news:1171729145.017024.92980@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
...
> So which process do you think KA employs to manufacture that
> starter...
> a product which has so impressed you?
>
> a) yours... very casual measuring and temperature control...
>
> b) rigorous determination of water ratios, specific time and
> temperature controls...
>
> You don't have to flame me. Just answer A or B <g>.
No flames necessary, but I'm gonna hafta go with "C"...(:-o)!
Dusty
>
> Will
>
>
"Will" <waller.william@gmail,com > wrote in message
news:1171729145.017024.92980@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
...
> So which process do you think KA employs to manufacture that
> starter...
> a product which has so impressed you?
>
> a) yours... very casual measuring and temperature control...
>
> b) rigorous determination of water ratios, specific time and
> temperature controls...
>
> You don't have to flame me. Just answer A or B <g>.
No flames necessary, but I'm gonna hafta go with "C"...(:-o)!
Dusty
>
> Will
>
>
Re: Thank you for the tip!
On Feb 17, 2:19 pm, "Dusty da baker"
<BakerB...@innerREMOVETHISlodge,com > wrote:
> "Will" <waller.will...@gmail,com > wrote in message
>
> news:1171729145.017024.92980@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
> ...> So which process do you think KA employs to manufacture that
> > starter...
> > a product which has so impressed you?
>
> > a) yours... very casual measuring and temperature control...
>
> > b) rigorous determination of water ratios, specific time and
> > temperature controls...
>
> > You don't have to flame me. Just answer A or B <g>.
>
> No flames necessary, but I'm gonna hafta go with "C"...(:-o)!
>
> Dusty
>
>
>
> > Will
You're a slippery devil <g>.
Anyway... I'm glad you like that starter. I like it too.
On Feb 17, 2:19 pm, "Dusty da baker"
<BakerB...@innerREMOVETHISlodge,com > wrote:
> "Will" <waller.will...@gmail,com > wrote in message
>
> news:1171729145.017024.92980@s48g2000cws.googlegroups,com ...
> ...> So which process do you think KA employs to manufacture that
> > starter...
> > a product which has so impressed you?
>
> > a) yours... very casual measuring and temperature control...
>
> > b) rigorous determination of water ratios, specific time and
> > temperature controls...
>
> > You don't have to flame me. Just answer A or B <g>.
>
> No flames necessary, but I'm gonna hafta go with "C"...(:-o)!
>
> Dusty
>
>
>
> > Will
You're a slippery devil <g>.
Anyway... I'm glad you like that starter. I like it too.
Re: Thank you for the tip!
Dusty da baker wrote:
> What I'd neglected to consider and what I didn't know, was that KA sends
> their starters "live" (everybody else sends dried crumbs)!
I don't. I send a doughball of the SF starter.
(snip survival story)
I'm not surprised. I sent a doughball to someone who was moving and
gave me the old address. Thanks to the efficiency of the USPS it took
something like six weeks for it to be forwarded. The fellow told me
what I sent revived with no problem. Starter isn't all that delicate.
B/
Dusty da baker wrote:
> What I'd neglected to consider and what I didn't know, was that KA sends
> their starters "live" (everybody else sends dried crumbs)!
I don't. I send a doughball of the SF starter.
(snip survival story)
I'm not surprised. I sent a doughball to someone who was moving and
gave me the old address. Thanks to the efficiency of the USPS it took
something like six weeks for it to be forwarded. The fellow told me
what I sent revived with no problem. Starter isn't all that delicate.
B/
Re: Thank you for the tip!
On Feb 16, 10:08 pm, "Dusty da baker"
<BakerB...@innerREMOVETHISlodge,com > wrote:
> To somebody posting here: "Thank you!"
>
> Some weeks (months?) back, somebody here posted about how they had such
> excellent success with capturing the "sour", in sourdough. You'd mentioned
> a starter you got from "King Arthur". Being one that's sought just that for
> years (and NOT found it!), I ordered some directly from your post (sometime
> in the second week of January).
>
> What I'd neglected to consider and what I didn't know, was that KA sends
> their starters "live" (everybody else sends dried crumbs)! I ordered it (as
> well as a dozen other things), and then promptly left the PNW for the charms
> (and warm, dry climate) of Quartzsite, Az Some days later my daughter sent
> me an eMail that "another package" had arrived for me. Since she'd become
> the "forwarder" of record for me...nothing much was thought of that. She
> usually gathers our mail until it's a reasonable amount to send, and then
> forwards it to us.
>
> So, this "live" culture got sent to her from KA, then it spent a week or so
> in her house waiting to get sent to me. She went on to send this to my mom
> in Yuma, where it spent another week or so gathering dust while I found out
> about it and scheduled a trip down there to pick it up. When I got back, it
> spent a few days (probably closer to a week) waiting for me to "find it" and
> take some kind of action.
>
> When I actually got to "reading" my mail, I found the KA starter. Dismayed
> over the time it took to get to me, I put it in the fridge while I rounded
> up containers, flour, and water. Did that. Took it out and began to
> culture it. The first 3-days weren't exactly anything to write home about.
> But on the 4th day, it bloomed! And on the fifth day--today--I used it to
> bake a loaf of my beloved SD bread.
>
> The results were nothing short of amazing! My dear wife, not one with a
> discerning sense of taste, found it "nicely sour!" I did too. Actually,
> truth be told, the flavor was nothing short of outstanding! I've been
> searching for the SD flavor I found in the bread that I got on the pier in
> SF those many decades ago. Today, I found it.
>
> To whom ever it was that posted that note: A great, big, "Thank you!"
> You've made my century!
>
> I've been baking SD for many years. I'd not yet found the "secret" for
> getting the real SD flavor that I've been seeking. I was pretty sure that
> getting to where I wanted to be was a matter of: starter, method, or flour.
> I've tried just about every method, many starters, and most flours. I'd not
> gotten even close! I knew it couldn't be: digital scales, any number of
> tons of tiles, bannetons--no matter what kind of wood they were woven out
> of, or microscopic temperature gradients.
>
> While my "method" was pretty similar to what I've been doing for years, the
> only real difference was the starter. Out here in the "outback", I use no
> scales, thermometers, mixers, tiles, bannetons, or any of the other
> "necessary" accoutrements that most posting here find so absolutely
> necessary. Yet the bread was fantastic!
>
> Thank you again, whom ever you are...
>
> Dusty -- Comin' atcha via AMC9 from: N 33° 45' 30.2", W 114° 11' 17.6",
> which is a
> flatspot 3-washes north of BLM marker 811, north side of Plomosa Rd,
> ~2-miles east of US95, and ~6-miles north of Quartzsite, Az
Dusty,
I'm reading Calval's Taste of Bread. Just got to the part where he
says levain storage below 10 C. (50 F.) causes loss of some flora (and
therefore taste). From my own experience (untested... just heuristics)
this is true. So don't chill that KA too much.
On Feb 16, 10:08 pm, "Dusty da baker"
<BakerB...@innerREMOVETHISlodge,com > wrote:
> To somebody posting here: "Thank you!"
>
> Some weeks (months?) back, somebody here posted about how they had such
> excellent success with capturing the "sour", in sourdough. You'd mentioned
> a starter you got from "King Arthur". Being one that's sought just that for
> years (and NOT found it!), I ordered some directly from your post (sometime
> in the second week of January).
>
> What I'd neglected to consider and what I didn't know, was that KA sends
> their starters "live" (everybody else sends dried crumbs)! I ordered it (as
> well as a dozen other things), and then promptly left the PNW for the charms
> (and warm, dry climate) of Quartzsite, Az Some days later my daughter sent
> me an eMail that "another package" had arrived for me. Since she'd become
> the "forwarder" of record for me...nothing much was thought of that. She
> usually gathers our mail until it's a reasonable amount to send, and then
> forwards it to us.
>
> So, this "live" culture got sent to her from KA, then it spent a week or so
> in her house waiting to get sent to me. She went on to send this to my mom
> in Yuma, where it spent another week or so gathering dust while I found out
> about it and scheduled a trip down there to pick it up. When I got back, it
> spent a few days (probably closer to a week) waiting for me to "find it" and
> take some kind of action.
>
> When I actually got to "reading" my mail, I found the KA starter. Dismayed
> over the time it took to get to me, I put it in the fridge while I rounded
> up containers, flour, and water. Did that. Took it out and began to
> culture it. The first 3-days weren't exactly anything to write home about.
> But on the 4th day, it bloomed! And on the fifth day--today--I used it to
> bake a loaf of my beloved SD bread.
>
> The results were nothing short of amazing! My dear wife, not one with a
> discerning sense of taste, found it "nicely sour!" I did too. Actually,
> truth be told, the flavor was nothing short of outstanding! I've been
> searching for the SD flavor I found in the bread that I got on the pier in
> SF those many decades ago. Today, I found it.
>
> To whom ever it was that posted that note: A great, big, "Thank you!"
> You've made my century!
>
> I've been baking SD for many years. I'd not yet found the "secret" for
> getting the real SD flavor that I've been seeking. I was pretty sure that
> getting to where I wanted to be was a matter of: starter, method, or flour.
> I've tried just about every method, many starters, and most flours. I'd not
> gotten even close! I knew it couldn't be: digital scales, any number of
> tons of tiles, bannetons--no matter what kind of wood they were woven out
> of, or microscopic temperature gradients.
>
> While my "method" was pretty similar to what I've been doing for years, the
> only real difference was the starter. Out here in the "outback", I use no
> scales, thermometers, mixers, tiles, bannetons, or any of the other
> "necessary" accoutrements that most posting here find so absolutely
> necessary. Yet the bread was fantastic!
>
> Thank you again, whom ever you are...
>
> Dusty -- Comin' atcha via AMC9 from: N 33° 45' 30.2", W 114° 11' 17.6",
> which is a
> flatspot 3-washes north of BLM marker 811, north side of Plomosa Rd,
> ~2-miles east of US95, and ~6-miles north of Quartzsite, Az
Dusty,
I'm reading Calval's Taste of Bread. Just got to the part where he
says levain storage below 10 C. (50 F.) causes loss of some flora (and
therefore taste). From my own experience (untested... just heuristics)
this is true. So don't chill that KA too much.
Re: Thank you for the tip!
"Will" <waller.william@gmail,com > wrote in message news:1171764864.406310.202080@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups,com ...
> ... I'm reading Calval's Taste of Bread. Just got to the part where he
says levain storage below 10 C. (50 F.) causes loss of some flora (and
therefore taste). From my own experience (untested... just heuristics)
this is true. So don't chill that KA too much. <
If you keep your storage culture in the fridge, as one would if not baking
very frequently, like once or twice a day, it will be below 50°F. If it
were true that there is some depletion of some unnamed taste-
producing organism, it is most likely that the original balance of
microflora would be restored by refreshment, particularly the kind
of serial refreshment I, and many others, do.
Propagating sourdough culture warmer than 90°F. causes loss of the
yeast eventually, but cultures stored in the fridge, even in the freezer,
are readily restored to their original microorganismical balance. A
reason for that is the interdependence of the bacteria and the yeast.
I have not read Calvel, and probably wont start unless his books suddenly
start appearing at my local library. It seems that everybody has opinions
about bread making, and the book writers are certainly entitled to theirs.
--
Dicky
"Will" <waller.william@gmail,com > wrote in message news:1171764864.406310.202080@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups,com ...
> ... I'm reading Calval's Taste of Bread. Just got to the part where he
says levain storage below 10 C. (50 F.) causes loss of some flora (and
therefore taste). From my own experience (untested... just heuristics)
this is true. So don't chill that KA too much. <
If you keep your storage culture in the fridge, as one would if not baking
very frequently, like once or twice a day, it will be below 50°F. If it
were true that there is some depletion of some unnamed taste-
producing organism, it is most likely that the original balance of
microflora would be restored by refreshment, particularly the kind
of serial refreshment I, and many others, do.
Propagating sourdough culture warmer than 90°F. causes loss of the
yeast eventually, but cultures stored in the fridge, even in the freezer,
are readily restored to their original microorganismical balance. A
reason for that is the interdependence of the bacteria and the yeast.
I have not read Calvel, and probably wont start unless his books suddenly
start appearing at my local library. It seems that everybody has opinions
about bread making, and the book writers are certainly entitled to theirs.
--
Dicky
Re: Thank you for the tip!
On Feb 17, 9:13 pm, "Dick Adams" <Bad.A...@nonexist,com > wrote:
> I have not read Calvel, and probably wont start unless his books suddenly
> start appearing at my local library. It seems that everybody has opinions
> about bread making, and the book writers are certainly entitled to theirs.
Dicky,
I am sure you would enjoy Calvel. He is, without question, the most
authoritative bread writer I have ever read. He is not shy about
expressing himself either... which is why I think you would like him.
I have found the library folks to be extremely responsive to purchase
requests. My system bought Hamelman at my request and, when he proved
popular, added another copy. They also bought Calvel at my request. So
you might give it a try.
Browse your library's site, there will be a purchase recommendation
form somewhere.
On Feb 17, 9:13 pm, "Dick Adams" <Bad.A...@nonexist,com > wrote:
> I have not read Calvel, and probably wont start unless his books suddenly
> start appearing at my local library. It seems that everybody has opinions
> about bread making, and the book writers are certainly entitled to theirs.
Dicky,
I am sure you would enjoy Calvel. He is, without question, the most
authoritative bread writer I have ever read. He is not shy about
expressing himself either... which is why I think you would like him.
I have found the library folks to be extremely responsive to purchase
requests. My system bought Hamelman at my request and, when he proved
popular, added another copy. They also bought Calvel at my request. So
you might give it a try.
Browse your library's site, there will be a purchase recommendation
form somewhere.
Re: Thank you for the tip!
"Will" <waller.william@gmail,com > wrote in message news:1171815756.334467.190200@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups,com ...
> Dicky, I am sure you would enjoy Calvel. He is, without question, the
> most authoritative bread writer I have ever read.
My old eyes do not love to read any more, so I must largely rely on
what folks tell me about books. A great deal of bread writing is about
demystifying and/or putting aside the ancient lore and old wives tales,
not to mention that new lore and wives tales are constantly being
invented, for filling pages, I heartily suspect, as short books never
seem good bargains to the book-buying public.
Now you wrote that you understood from your authority (Calvel) that
some unspecified constituent of sourdough microflora is adversely
affected by keeping storage culture below 50°F., with a concordant
loss of flavor in the bread produced from it.
My point is this: that some book writer named Calvel wrote it in some
book does not make it true, nor even qualify for further consideration
unless some substantiation other than opinion is provided. That is to
say that I would like to be told that there is some reason in nature
to suspect that the opinion might be valid.
My experience indicates to me that, as long as there are viable
sourdough organisms of the expected types in a storage culture,
adequate refreshment of the culture will restore the properties of
the culture to those expected.
I suspect, but can't prove in my kitchen, that there are relatively more
SD bacteria in a culture approaching starvation than there are in a
more-recently fed culture, where, relative to yeast numbers, the
bacteria, I suspect, are fewer. Similarly, I believe that dough which
has reached bake time through a proper and effective rise is souring
much faster than it did earlier.
> He is not shy about expressing himself either... which is why I
> think you would like him.
If I bought the book, or put my good reputation on the line for the
library to buy it, and it caused me useless eyestrain, I would hate him.
--
Dicky
"Will" <waller.william@gmail,com > wrote in message news:1171815756.334467.190200@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups,com ...
> Dicky, I am sure you would enjoy Calvel. He is, without question, the
> most authoritative bread writer I have ever read.
My old eyes do not love to read any more, so I must largely rely on
what folks tell me about books. A great deal of bread writing is about
demystifying and/or putting aside the ancient lore and old wives tales,
not to mention that new lore and wives tales are constantly being
invented, for filling pages, I heartily suspect, as short books never
seem good bargains to the book-buying public.
Now you wrote that you understood from your authority (Calvel) that
some unspecified constituent of sourdough microflora is adversely
affected by keeping storage culture below 50°F., with a concordant
loss of flavor in the bread produced from it.
My point is this: that some book writer named Calvel wrote it in some
book does not make it true, nor even qualify for further consideration
unless some substantiation other than opinion is provided. That is to
say that I would like to be told that there is some reason in nature
to suspect that the opinion might be valid.
My experience indicates to me that, as long as there are viable
sourdough organisms of the expected types in a storage culture,
adequate refreshment of the culture will restore the properties of
the culture to those expected.
I suspect, but can't prove in my kitchen, that there are relatively more
SD bacteria in a culture approaching starvation than there are in a
more-recently fed culture, where, relative to yeast numbers, the
bacteria, I suspect, are fewer. Similarly, I believe that dough which
has reached bake time through a proper and effective rise is souring
much faster than it did earlier.
> He is not shy about expressing himself either... which is why I
> think you would like him.
If I bought the book, or put my good reputation on the line for the
library to buy it, and it caused me useless eyestrain, I would hate him.
--
Dicky
Re: Thank you for the tip!
Here are some numbers for 1 gram of typical "levain" culture...
Food Laboratory of the National Institute of Agronomic Research in
Dijon:
20 million yeast cells
1.03 billion lactobacilli cells
Western Regional Research Laboratory of the University of California
at Berkeley
15 to 28 million yeast cells
600 million to 2 billion lactobacilli cells
Kline/Sugihara are cited for the 50 F. (or above) levain storage
advice. In fact... Calvel believes that very few people have ever
tasted real "levain" bread, given the prevalence of refrigerated
storage.
So it's been a pretty eye opening book. But at $88 (Amazon) I'm
guessing not many will ever get to read it.
Here are some numbers for 1 gram of typical "levain" culture...
Food Laboratory of the National Institute of Agronomic Research in
Dijon:
20 million yeast cells
1.03 billion lactobacilli cells
Western Regional Research Laboratory of the University of California
at Berkeley
15 to 28 million yeast cells
600 million to 2 billion lactobacilli cells
Kline/Sugihara are cited for the 50 F. (or above) levain storage
advice. In fact... Calvel believes that very few people have ever
tasted real "levain" bread, given the prevalence of refrigerated
storage.
So it's been a pretty eye opening book. But at $88 (Amazon) I'm
guessing not many will ever get to read it.
Re: Thank you for the tip!
Will wrote:
> ...In fact... Calvel believes that very few people have ever
> tasted real "levain" bread, given the prevalence of refrigerated
> storage.
One word: "Poilane."
Well, other words come to mind as well: "Acme. Semifreddi's." Even
"Parisian" and "Columbo" (which might be considered one word since it's
the same company.). "Boudin."
B/
Will wrote:
> ...In fact... Calvel believes that very few people have ever
> tasted real "levain" bread, given the prevalence of refrigerated
> storage.
One word: "Poilane."
Well, other words come to mind as well: "Acme. Semifreddi's." Even
"Parisian" and "Columbo" (which might be considered one word since it's
the same company.). "Boudin."
B/
Re: Thank you for the tip!
"Will" <waller.william@gmail,com > wrote in message
news:1171823874.947147.89400@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups,com ...
> Here are some numbers for 1 gram of typical "levain" culture...
>
> Food Laboratory of the National Institute of Agronomic Research in
> Dijon:
>
> 20 million yeast cells
> 1.03 billion lactobacilli cells
>
> Western Regional Research Laboratory of the University of California
> at Berkeley
>
> 15 to 28 million yeast cells
> 600 million to 2 billion lactobacilli cells
>
> Kline/Sugihara are cited for the 50 F. (or above) levain storage
> advice. In fact... Calvel believes that very few people have ever
> tasted real "levain" bread, given the prevalence of refrigerated
> storage.
when i was baking every day, i kept my starter out on the counter at room
temp- 68ºf- and never in the fridge. although i don't remember a huge taste
difference in the final bread, i do remember the wonderful smell of my
starter. very sweet and yeasty. i do not get that same odor when i revive
from storage. iirc, it took three to four days maintained at room temp to
get to that nice bouquet.
dan w
"Will" <waller.william@gmail,com > wrote in message
news:1171823874.947147.89400@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups,com ...
> Here are some numbers for 1 gram of typical "levain" culture...
>
> Food Laboratory of the National Institute of Agronomic Research in
> Dijon:
>
> 20 million yeast cells
> 1.03 billion lactobacilli cells
>
> Western Regional Research Laboratory of the University of California
> at Berkeley
>
> 15 to 28 million yeast cells
> 600 million to 2 billion lactobacilli cells
>
> Kline/Sugihara are cited for the 50 F. (or above) levain storage
> advice. In fact... Calvel believes that very few people have ever
> tasted real "levain" bread, given the prevalence of refrigerated
> storage.
when i was baking every day, i kept my starter out on the counter at room
temp- 68ºf- and never in the fridge. although i don't remember a huge taste
difference in the final bread, i do remember the wonderful smell of my
starter. very sweet and yeasty. i do not get that same odor when i revive
from storage. iirc, it took three to four days maintained at room temp to
get to that nice bouquet.
dan w
Re: Thank you for the tip!
Will wrote:
>
> I am sure you would enjoy Calvel. He is, without question, the most
> authoritative bread writer I have ever read. He is not shy about
> expressing himself either...
Well, sure, Dr Calvel is frequently quoted. However, I recall reading
or seeing Julia Child commenting on putting together her TV segment on
French bread.
She had been in France and had filmed some footage of Dr Calvel in a
bakery. When she returned and was working on the script she kept
sending the master drafts to review. He kept changing his mind about
the best procedure so often she finally had to just pick a version that
roughly fit the film footage in order to complete the job.
I took this as a caution not to go to far out on a limb quoting even
experts as they may have "moved on" as some are wont to say these days.
Say, will, did you ever bake bread in that ceramic bar-b-que? And, how
did it work out?
Regards,
Charles
Will wrote:
>
> I am sure you would enjoy Calvel. He is, without question, the most
> authoritative bread writer I have ever read. He is not shy about
> expressing himself either...
Well, sure, Dr Calvel is frequently quoted. However, I recall reading
or seeing Julia Child commenting on putting together her TV segment on
French bread.
She had been in France and had filmed some footage of Dr Calvel in a
bakery. When she returned and was working on the script she kept
sending the master drafts to review. He kept changing his mind about
the best procedure so often she finally had to just pick a version that
roughly fit the film footage in order to complete the job.
I took this as a caution not to go to far out on a limb quoting even
experts as they may have "moved on" as some are wont to say these days.
Say, will, did you ever bake bread in that ceramic bar-b-que? And, how
did it work out?
Regards,
Charles
Re: Thank you for the tip!
On Feb 18, 8:58 pm, Charles Perry <chef...@nospam,com > wrote:
> I took this as a caution not to go to far out on a limb quoting even
> experts as they may have "moved on" as some are wont to say these days.
Certainly good advice... I wish the Calvel's book had been translated
earlier and didn't cost $88. I think a few more of us might have
gotten around to reading it. Having read bits and pieces of Calvels's
work over the years, it's nice to have the thing in hand. I have not
been disappointed. It reminds me of the interesting discussions held
here (RFS) years ago when Wing and Roland were posting.
> Say, will, did you ever bake bread in that ceramic bar-b-que? And, how
> did it work out?
I did bake bread in the Kamado (pizza too). It did not turn out as I
expected. Perhaps my expectations were too high. The unit is cast from
about 600 pounds of boiler cement... meaning very heat resistant. I
had thought it would crank right up to 600-700 F, hold heat and serve
as a great little bread oven. Well, it does hold heat and it does
crank right up... but I had trouble getting it much beyond 450F.
Perhaps I needed more wood/charcoal. I've read in their user group
about folks getting these units up to 800-900 degrees. But I wasn't
one of them. It is, however, a great unit for precision meat roasting.
I have been so pleased with it in that capacity that I simply put the
bread baking expectations aside. Instead... I got a copy of
Charcuterie and went to work on long, low temperature (150-220 F)
roasting (and sausage making... G*d how I love bratwurst!). I have not
put meat in my regular kitchen oven since <g>. It's that good.
I'll give it another baking shot this spring after I prune the apple
trees.
On Feb 18, 8:58 pm, Charles Perry <chef...@nospam,com > wrote:
> I took this as a caution not to go to far out on a limb quoting even
> experts as they may have "moved on" as some are wont to say these days.
Certainly good advice... I wish the Calvel's book had been translated
earlier and didn't cost $88. I think a few more of us might have
gotten around to reading it. Having read bits and pieces of Calvels's
work over the years, it's nice to have the thing in hand. I have not
been disappointed. It reminds me of the interesting discussions held
here (RFS) years ago when Wing and Roland were posting.
> Say, will, did you ever bake bread in that ceramic bar-b-que? And, how
> did it work out?
I did bake bread in the Kamado (pizza too). It did not turn out as I
expected. Perhaps my expectations were too high. The unit is cast from
about 600 pounds of boiler cement... meaning very heat resistant. I
had thought it would crank right up to 600-700 F, hold heat and serve
as a great little bread oven. Well, it does hold heat and it does
crank right up... but I had trouble getting it much beyond 450F.
Perhaps I needed more wood/charcoal. I've read in their user group
about folks getting these units up to 800-900 degrees. But I wasn't
one of them. It is, however, a great unit for precision meat roasting.
I have been so pleased with it in that capacity that I simply put the
bread baking expectations aside. Instead... I got a copy of
Charcuterie and went to work on long, low temperature (150-220 F)
roasting (and sausage making... G*d how I love bratwurst!). I have not
put meat in my regular kitchen oven since <g>. It's that good.
I'll give it another baking shot this spring after I prune the apple
trees.
Re: Thank you for the tip!
Hi Will & all;
"Will" <waller.william@gmail,com > wrote in message
news:1171764864.406310.202080@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups,com ...
...
I'm reading Calval's Taste of Bread. Just got to the part where he
says levain storage below 10 C. (50 F.) causes loss of some flora (and
therefore taste). From my own experience (untested... just heuristics)
this is true. So don't chill that KA too much.
[Yep. I've heard that as well. But, not to worry, I only kept it cool
while I located a source of materials (container, water, flour, etc...) that
I needed to deal with that new starter. I'd expected to just carry it with
me, and revive it when we got back home. I didn't know that I'd need to
handle it right away.]
[Took a bit of doing...but even way out here, I found the necessary
things...(:-o)! Now that it's both revived *and* so tasty, I'm going to
keep it going on the counter--which is what I usually do anyway. It's just
that in an RV, one is kind of cramped...so now that these guys have joined
the fun, somebody or thing else has gotta go...]
[I've got dried backups of my current starter stored in the freezer. Given
how well this starter has performed already, I'm gonna dump the old one and
replace it with the KA stuff. But for the moment it's "doin' its thang" on
the counter, and will yield both flapjacks for breakfast *and* a new loaf of
SD to be consumed with my famous "Chili-soup" after watching the big race
tomorrow...(:-o)!]
[Now, if only I could find someplace to get some ordinary rye flour...<big
sigh!> After not being able to find HK flour anywhere in the PNW, I can
find it in just about every po-dunk excuse for a grocery store within 25
miles. But rye flour? They act like you're talking a foreign language when
you ask for it... Oh well, we'll take a quick trip down to Yuma on Monday.
Take a trip, get a shower, find some rye flour...life is good...(:-o)!]
L8r all,
Dusty
Hi Will & all;
"Will" <waller.william@gmail,com > wrote in message
news:1171764864.406310.202080@t69g2000cwt.googlegroups,com ...
...
I'm reading Calval's Taste of Bread. Just got to the part where he
says levain storage below 10 C. (50 F.) causes loss of some flora (and
therefore taste). From my own experience (untested... just heuristics)
this is true. So don't chill that KA too much.
[Yep. I've heard that as well. But, not to worry, I only kept it cool
while I located a source of materials (container, water, flour, etc...) that
I needed to deal with that new starter. I'd expected to just carry it with
me, and revive it when we got back home. I didn't know that I'd need to
handle it right away.]
[Took a bit of doing...but even way out here, I found the necessary
things...(:-o)! Now that it's both revived *and* so tasty, I'm going to
keep it going on the counter--which is what I usually do anyway. It's just
that in an RV, one is kind of cramped...so now that these guys have joined
the fun, somebody or thing else has gotta go...]
[I've got dried backups of my current starter stored in the freezer. Given
how well this starter has performed already, I'm gonna dump the old one and
replace it with the KA stuff. But for the moment it's "doin' its thang" on
the counter, and will yield both flapjacks for breakfast *and* a new loaf of
SD to be consumed with my famous "Chili-soup" after watching the big race
tomorrow...(:-o)!]
[Now, if only I could find someplace to get some ordinary rye flour...<big
sigh!> After not being able to find HK flour anywhere in the PNW, I can
find it in just about every po-dunk excuse for a grocery store within 25
miles. But rye flour? They act like you're talking a foreign language when
you ask for it... Oh well, we'll take a quick trip down to Yuma on Monday.
Take a trip, get a shower, find some rye flour...life is good...(:-o)!]
L8r all,
Dusty
