Quorum sensing, filamentous growth and 'no kneading'

Quorum sensing, filamentous growth and 'no kneading'

this post is strictly for those who have an interest in what is really
'scientifically' happening inside there dough

at the time of the 'no knead' method discussions I think I remember
some questions asking how the effect of mechanical kneading was
duplicated in a 'no knead' dough. I was also involved in some mailings
regarding the differing methods of re-production yeasts (of various
kinds) can deploy in differing conditions, sporing, 'sexual
reproduction' and budding. During those mailings we also covered the
possibility that yeast colonies can send chemical signals to each
other with the affect that colonies grow away from each other rather
than linking up.

In the last few days I have become more aware of something that
scientists now call 'quorum sensing', this covers the behaviour of
some microbes, including yeasts where emission of a chemical by some
members of the colony amongst the colony gets to a level where the
colony as a whole swaps from one mode to another (for instance into
budding mode).

this paper * w w w .genesdev.org/cgi/reprint/20/9/1150.pdf records
finding that colonies of Saccharomyces cerevisiae (bakers yeast) can
both emit and react to an emission or the presence of aromatic
alcohols Tryptophol and Phenylethanol to go into an "invasive
filamentous" mode of growth.

The nature of 'filamentous growth' which is also associated with the
dangerous cycle of some disease causing yeasts is further described
here * ec.asm.org/cgi/content/full/5/8/1266

It occurs to be that this 'filamentous growth' (which I wasn't really
aware of before) where yeast colonies form a plastic and adhesive and
invasive film may be precisely the mechanism by which gluten strands
are joined up by the 'no knead' method - something normally achieved
or at least aided by mechanical kneading.

The 'quorum sensing'/aromatic alcohol findings may give some clues on
ways in which to stimulate this effect (i.e. by addition of something
mimicking or duplicating the sending of this chemical signal by the
colony)

yours
atty

Re: Quorum sensing, filamentous growth and 'no kneading'


"atty" <atty@area3 . net > wrote in message =
news:1173438033.135415.68110@c51g2000cwc.googlegroups . com ...
> this post is strictly for those who have an interest in what is really
> 'scientifically' happening inside there dough

Well, I am interested, but your speculations are not helping much.
"Atty" is a shorthand expression for attorney = lawyer. Are you a
lawyer? By their certifications, medical doctors are qualified to 
speculate on everything, but I am not sure that lawyers are similarly
entitled.

> [ ... ]

> * ec.asm.org/cgi/content/full/5/8/1266
> It occurs to be that this 'filamentous growth' (which I wasn't really
> aware of before) where yeast colonies form a plastic and adhesive and
> invasive film may be precisely the mechanism by which gluten strands
> are joined up by the 'no knead' method - something normally achieved
> or at least aided by mechanical kneading.

Well, I wasn't aware of it, either, and it seems very doubtful if it is =
a 
factor in the development of gluten in bread dough, or of a mycelium
which might bind the dough in the way that a gluten network does.

It does continue to be a mystery how gluten development, known to
science to be a endothermic process (requiring the application of 
energy) could occur passively. I think it is worthwhile to note that 
loaves which are made without kneading are conventionally intended
to be cooked in high heat and dampness -- I would say "popped",
rather like a kernel of popping corn, or a flat round of pita dough.

--
Dicky
* w w w .prettycolors . com /dickya/blosxom.cgi

Re: Quorum sensing, filamentous growth and 'no kneading'

On Mar 9, 8:02 am, "Dick Adams" <Bad.A...@nonexist . com > wrote:
> It does continue to be a mystery how gluten development, known to
> science to be a endothermic process (requiring the application of
> energy) could occur passively. I think it is worthwhile to note that
> loaves which are made without kneading are conventionally intended
> to be cooked in high heat and dampness -- I would say "popped",
> rather like a kernel of popping corn, or a flat round of pita dough.
> --
> Dicky * w w w .prettycolors . com /dickya/blosxom.cgi

Dick,
I don't know what you mean by "passively". You can certainly have
energy absorbtion without a temperature rise (ice melts).
And the biochemistry of what is going on in a batch of sourdough is
certainly not a net consumer of energy.

Also, I have never made pita bread without kneading and rolling the
dough. If you have a less time consuming process bring it on!

Cheers,
Doc

Re: Quorum sensing, filamentous growth and 'no kneading'


"Doc" <doc.dough@verizon . net > wrote in message =
news:1173487108.020208.124300@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups . com ...

[ ... ]

> I have never made pita bread without kneading and rolling the
> dough. If you have a less time consuming process bring it on!

I have never made pita bread. I am sorry I mentioned pita bread.
It was only to say pita dough "pops" like popcorn when great heat is 
applied. Go ahead, confound that.

Re: Quorum sensing, filamentous growth and 'no kneading'

On 10 Mar, 05:22, "Dick Adams" <Bad.A...@nonexist . com > wrote:
> "Doc" <doc.do...@verizon . net > wrote in messagenews:1173487108.020208.124300@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups . com ...
>
> [ ... ]
>
> > I have never made pita bread without kneading and rolling the
> > dough. If you have a less time consuming process bring it on!
>
> I have never made pita bread. I am sorry I mentioned pita bread.
> It was only to say pita dough "pops" like popcorn when great heat is
> applied. Go ahead, confound that.

Dick, I think we all know what was going on in your reply to atty, I
thought about replying but where do you start? You have to be able to
account for what you say as much as he does though.

Jim

Re: Quorum sensing, filamentous growth and 'no kneading'

On Mar 9, 4:02 pm, "Dick Adams" <Bad.A...@nonexist . com > wrote:
> "atty" <a...@area3 . net > wrote in
messagenews:1173438033.135415.68110@c51g2000cwc.googlegroups . com ...
> > this post is strictly for those who have an interest in what is
really
> > 'scientifically' happening inside there dough
>
> Well, I am interested, but your speculations are not helping much.
> "Atty" is a shorthand expression for attorney = lawyer.

in the US only. I have been known as atty (often exclusively) in a
variety of social situations since early childhood, sorry for the
confusion but I am sure you realise nearly every short word is an
abbreviation for something somewhere. I am not doctor or lawyer but
merely quite inquisitive as to what is 'scientifically' happening
inside
my dough, I more or less follow the McGee school in that I think
understanding at molecular level of cooking/baking processes can
inform
and sometimes improve practice.

> > * ec.asm.org/cgi/content/full/5/8/1266
> > It occurs to be that this 'filamentous growth' (which I wasn't
really
> > aware of before) where yeast colonies form a plastic and adhesive
and
> > invasive film may be precisely the mechanism by which gluten
strands
> > are joined up by the 'no knead' method - something normally
achieved
> > or at least aided by mechanical kneading.
>
> Well, I wasn't aware of it, either, and it seems very doubtful if
it is a
> factor in the development of gluten in bread dough, or of a
mycelium
> which might bind the dough in the way that a gluten network does.

I think its quite unlikely that bakers yeast would have a major mode
of
'behaviour' and this not express itself in some part of the baking
process even if only in that there might be some part of traditional
baking practice that suppressed it. Closer reading of
* ec.asm.org/cgi/content/full/5/8/1266 reveals they are writing
not
about a single mode of behaviour but several, formation of a 'mat'
across a surface (sliding motility), 'filamentous growth' and
invasive
growth (essentially downwards when grown on a surface). Their
comparison
of yeast behaviour over a surface with behaviour in a solution I
don't
think is directly applicable to dough since I don't think dough is
exactly analogous to a solution (where yeast grow 'planktonically') or
a
surface, particularly since I think it is fairly accepted that dough
mixing incorporates air (bubbles) into the dough.

As I understand in the conventional mechanical kneading process of
'developing' a dough is somewhat analogous to carding in raw wool
treatment, i.e. repeated stretching and folding facilitates the
unravelling (with hydration) and lining up of glutentin proteins and
then there
joining up end to end to form extensive sheets or mats. According to
McGee the other main protein in gluten, gliatin are very different in
shape and behaviour to glutenin's long kinked strands and propensity
to
join end to end, and so tend to act as 'ball-bearing' like
lubrication
enabling sheets/nets of glutenin to slide over each other.

The essential question is how a fairly wet dough left to stand for
enough time manages to form these sheets of glutenin at least nearly
as
well, without mechanical kneading as with. My hypothesis is not I
think
that (end) crumb structure in a 'no knead' loaf is not gluten sheets
at
all but some kind of sheets of yeast structure, but rather that yeast
may be causing sufficient disruption and microscopic movement to
facilitate unravelling and joining up of glutenin proteins.

Other modes of yeast behaviour also may cause some movement, at
however
a microscopic level
* w w w .bio.unc.edu/faculty/bloom/lab/pdf/maddox.pdf shows how
yeast
cells re-orientate themselves towards a potential mating partner in
'sexual' phase of reproduction

The other mechanism that might explain glutenin development in a
dough
including yeast would of course be generation of C02, the yeast's
leavening properties.

One might suggest an experiment where three batches of dough were
made
up with same hydration and flour and initial mixing, one with no
yeast
culture or other leavener, one with an alternative leavener to yeast,
and one with a yeast culture. Leave the three for a suitable amount
of
time and then perform what Peter Reinhart describes in 'Crust and
Crumb'
as the 'window pane test' (stretch a lump of dough in all directions
and
see whether you get a translucent unbroken window pane) in as rigorous
a
manner as possible.

yours
Andy Forbes (aka atty)

Re: Quorum sensing, filamentous growth and 'no kneading'

atty wrote:

>
> The essential question is how a fairly wet dough left to stand for
> enough time manages to form these sheets of glutenin at least nearly
> as
> well, without mechanical kneading as with.
>

Bread Faeries? Perhaps they do more than just raise the bread.


Regards,

Charles