Can you see the similarities?

Can you see the similarities?

Pioneer

http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938_1.jpg

versus

Goldmund

http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938_2.jpg

Re: Can you see the similarities?

On Jan 15, 10:13 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop,com > wrote:
> Pioneer
>
> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938 1.jpg
>
> versus
>
> Goldmund
>
> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938 2.jpg

The difference seems to be implementation. The subtle difference may
mean alot sonically. Isn't this why DIY audio mods are so popular?
Replacing capacitors, opamps etc on certain products turns them from
run-of-the-mill to world class products.

This is analogous to the Rolls Royce and Chevy Nova both being cars
with 4 doors and 4 wheels. The similarity ends there.

CD

Re: Can you see the similarities?

"codifus" <codifus@optonline,net > wrote in message
news:fmm3uq0puo@news1.newsguy,com ...
> On Jan 15, 10:13 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop,com > wrote:
>> Pioneer
>>
>> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938_1.jpg
>>
>> versus
>>
>> Goldmund
>>
>> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938_2.jpg
>
> The difference seems to be implementation. The subtle difference may
> mean alot sonically. Isn't this why DIY audio mods are so popular?
> Replacing capacitors, opamps etc on certain products turns them from
> run-of-the-mill to world class products.
>
>
Most unlikely unless the original product was broken. Changing capacitors,
op-amps or anything else won't change the perceived sound one iota as any
differences are well below the threshold of hearing. That is, unless the
original CD player was fine, and the modifications have broken it, then one
may hear a difference.

S.

--
http :// audiopages.googlepages,com

Re: Can you see the similarities?

"codifus" <codifus@optonline,net > wrote in message
news:fmm3uq0puo@news1.newsguy,com
> On Jan 15, 10:13 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop,com >
> wrote:
>> Pioneer
>>
>> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938_1.jpg
>>
>> versus
>>
>> Goldmund
>>
>> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938_2.jpg
>
> The difference seems to be implementation.

Really? The only difference I see is that the identical same components
were housed in a different box.

>The subtle difference may mean alot sonically.

That's an audiophile myth.

> Isn't this why DIY audio mods are so popular?

Modern DIY audio mods typically have no technical or audible signficance
whatsoever. They often seem to be based on the myth that every electronic
component has an audible signature. The perceived benefits seem to be the
result of a bonding experience, facilitated by a soldering iron.

> Replacing capacitors, opamps
> etc on certain products turns them from run-of-the-mill
> to world class products.

It takes considerable suspension of disbelief in engineering and science to
believe that myth if you are well-educated in engineering and science.

> This is analogous to the Rolls Royce and Chevy Nova both
> being cars with 4 doors and 4 wheels. The similarity ends there.

Thing is, Roly Royces and Chevy Novas are violently different cars, on just
about every relevant ground. You can't turn a Nova into a Silver Shadow by
putting on a new coat of paint, adding different mouse oil to the crankcase,
now can you?

Re: Can you see the similarities?

On Jan 17, 10:51 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop,com > wrote:
> "codifus" <codi...@optonline,net > wrote in message
>
> news:fmm3uq0puo@news1.newsguy,com
>
> > On Jan 15, 10:13 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop,com >
> > wrote:
> >> Pioneer
>
> >> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938 1.jpg
>
> >> versus
>
> >> Goldmund
>
> >> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938 2.jpg
>
> > The difference seems to be implementation.
>
> Really? The only difference I see is that the identical same components
> were housed in a different box.
>
> >The subtle difference may mean alot sonically.
>
> That's an audiophile myth.
>
> > Isn't this why DIY audio mods are so popular?
>
> Modern DIY audio mods typically have no technical or audible signficance
> whatsoever. They often seem to be based on the myth that every electronic
> component has an audible signature. The perceived benefits seem to be the
> result of a bonding experience, facilitated by a soldering iron.
>
> > Replacing capacitors, opamps
> > etc on certain products turns them from run-of-the-mill
> > to world class products.
>
> It takes considerable suspension of disbelief in engineering and science to
> believe that myth if you are well-educated in engineering and science.

My technical understanding is layman's, but the fact is, electrical
components do not behave ideally. Capacitors have resistance,
inductors have capacitance etc. When you build a system with higher
grade components in circuits, such as gold foil capacitors and the
like, you end up with a circuit that acts more as it is supposed to.

Tell me, then, why do different types of capacitors, inductors,
transformers, resistros,etc exist? You cab but a 100 uF capcictor for
$10 for a thousand at Radio Shack, or get a dozen high grade 100uFs
from a specialty electronics outlet.

>
> > This is analogous to the Rolls Royce and Chevy Nova both
> > being cars with 4 doors and 4 wheels. The similarity ends there.
>
> Thing is, Roly Royces and Chevy Novas are violently different cars, on just
> about every relevant ground. You can't turn a Nova into a Silver Shadow by
> putting on a new coat of paint, adding different mouse oil to the crankcase,
> now can you?

It was a loose analogy. The differences with these 2 products may be
more subtle.

CD

Re: Can you see the similarities?

"codifus" <codifus@optonline,net > wrote in message
news:fmrb79016ec@news1.newsguy,com
> On Jan 17, 10:51 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop,com >
> wrote:
>> "codifus" <codi...@optonline,net > wrote in message
>>
>> news:fmm3uq0puo@news1.newsguy,com
>>
>>> On Jan 15, 10:13 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop,com >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Pioneer
>>
>>>> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938_1.jpg
>>
>>>> versus
>>
>>>> Goldmund
>>
>>>> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938_2.jpg
>>
>>> The difference seems to be implementation.
>>
>> Really? The only difference I see is that the identical
>> same components were housed in a different box.
>>
>>> The subtle difference may mean alot sonically.
>>
>> That's an audiophile myth.
>>
>>> Isn't this why DIY audio mods are so popular?
>>
>> Modern DIY audio mods typically have no technical or
>> audible signficance whatsoever. They often seem to be
>> based on the myth that every electronic component has an
>> audible signature. The perceived benefits seem to be the
>> result of a bonding experience, facilitated by a
>> soldering iron.
>>
>>> Replacing capacitors, opamps
>>> etc on certain products turns them from run-of-the-mill
>>> to world class products.
>>
>> It takes considerable suspension of disbelief in
>> engineering and science to believe that myth if you are
>> well-educated in engineering and science.
>
> My technical understanding is layman's, but the fact is,
> electrical components do not behave ideally.

Nothing is perfectly ideal, but many things are sufficiently close to ideal
that the differences can be safely ignored.

> Capacitors have resistance,

Low ESR capacitors are more of the rule than ever.

> inductors have capacitance etc.

Inductors are rarely used outside of loudspeakers.

> When you build a system with higher grade components in circuits,
> such as gold foil capacitors and the like, you end up
> with a circuit that acts more as it is supposed to.

Not at all. Gold is not the best material for making capacitors, or anything
conductive. It has much more resistance than gold or silver. The
conductivity of the material that is commonly used to make capacitors,
aluminum can be easily managed by simply using a little more of it.

Besides, you need to keep up with current audiophile revealed wisdom which
focuses on dielectric material, not conductor materials in capacitors. In
the area of capacitor dielectrics, components using the best materials are
reasonably priced and commonly used.

> Tell me, then, why do different types of capacitors,
> inductors, transformers, resistrors,etc exist?

Not all capacitor or resistor applications are the same and this has been
known for dozens of years. Some of the commonly-cited articles about passive
parts were obsolete on the day they were first published because they failed
to consider good accepted practice of the day which advised against some of
the components presented as bad choices.

In some sense the range of capacitors and resistors used in audio gear has
shrunk, because in the last 30 years some of the real all-time losers like
carbon composition resistors and ceramic coupling capacitors have
disappeared, either totally or at least from common use in audio gear.

> You cab but
> a 100 uF capcictor for $10 for a thousand at Radio Shack,
> or get a dozen high grade 100uFs from a specialty
> electronics outlet.

This is not true - the lowest cost 100uF capacitor at Radio Shack store
runs about $1.29, not ten cents. So, the RS parts cost even more than the
price you quoted for the specialty electronics outlet (about $0.80).

>> This is analogous to the Rolls Royce and Chevy Nova both
>>> being cars with 4 doors and 4 wheels. The similarity
>>> ends there.
>>
>> Thing is, Roly Royces and Chevy Novas are violently
>> different cars, on just about every relevant ground. You
>> can't turn a Nova into a Silver Shadow by putting on a
>> new coat of paint, adding different mouse oil to the
>> crankcase, now can you?
>
> It was a loose analogy. The differences with these 2
> products may be more subtle.

Anything may in some sense be, but only a limited subset of all possibilties
actually is.

Re: Can you see the similarities?

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:12:24 -0800, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article <fmtei80hac@news1.newsguy,com >):

> "codifus" <codifus@optonline,net > wrote in message
> news:fmrb79016ec@news1.newsguy,com
>> On Jan 17, 10:51 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop,com >
>> wrote:
>>> "codifus" <codi...@optonline,net > wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:fmm3uq0puo@news1.newsguy,com
>>>
>>>> On Jan 15, 10:13 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop,com >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Pioneer
>>>
>>>>> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938_1.jpg
>>>
>>>>> versus
>>>
>>>>> Goldmund
>>>
>>>>> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938_2.jpg
>>>
>>>> The difference seems to be implementation.
>>>
>>> Really? The only difference I see is that the identical
>>> same components were housed in a different box.
>>>
>>>> The subtle difference may mean alot sonically.
>>>
>>> That's an audiophile myth.
>>>
>>>> Isn't this why DIY audio mods are so popular?
>>>
>>> Modern DIY audio mods typically have no technical or
>>> audible signficance whatsoever. They often seem to be
>>> based on the myth that every electronic component has an
>>> audible signature. The perceived benefits seem to be the
>>> result of a bonding experience, facilitated by a
>>> soldering iron.
>>>
>>>> Replacing capacitors, opamps
>>>> etc on certain products turns them from run-of-the-mill
>>>> to world class products.
>>>
>>> It takes considerable suspension of disbelief in
>>> engineering and science to believe that myth if you are
>>> well-educated in engineering and science.
>>
>> My technical understanding is layman's, but the fact is,
>> electrical components do not behave ideally.
>
> Nothing is perfectly ideal, but many things are sufficiently close to ideal
> that the differences can be safely ignored.
>
>> Capacitors have resistance,
>
> Low ESR capacitors are more of the rule than ever.
>
>> inductors have capacitance etc.
>
> Inductors are rarely used outside of loudspeakers.
>
>> When you build a system with higher grade components in circuits,
>> such as gold foil capacitors and the like, you end up
>> with a circuit that acts more as it is supposed to.
>
> Not at all. Gold is not the best material for making capacitors, or anything
> conductive. It has much more resistance than gold or silver. The
> conductivity of the material that is commonly used to make capacitors,
> aluminum can be easily managed by simply using a little more of it.

The metals used are not that important (with some exceptions), what is
important is the dielectric material used in capacitors. Polypropelene has
the least dielectric absorbtion in larger sizes, and polystyrene in very
small capacitors is best. One should keep aluminum electrolytics out of the
audio path and one should keep tantalums out of audio circuits altogether.
>
> Besides, you need to keep up with current audiophile revealed wisdom which
> focuses on dielectric material, not conductor materials in capacitors.

Yep.

> In the area of capacitor dielectrics, components using the best materials are

> reasonably priced and commonly used.

Yep.
>
>> Tell me, then, why do different types of capacitors,
>> inductors, transformers, resistrors,etc exist?
>
> Not all capacitor or resistor applications are the same and this has been
> known for dozens of years. Some of the commonly-cited articles about passive
> parts were obsolete on the day they were first published because they failed
> to consider good accepted practice of the day which advised against some of
> the components presented as bad choices.
>
> In some sense the range of capacitors and resistors used in audio gear has
> shrunk, because in the last 30 years some of the real all-time losers like
> carbon composition resistors and ceramic coupling capacitors have
> disappeared, either totally or at least from common use in audio gear.

That's true, although some cheap amplifiers (especially SS amps) still use
un-bypassed electrolytics in the audio path. A definite no-no.

>> You cab but
>> a 100 uF capcictor for $10 for a thousand at Radio Shack,
>> or get a dozen high grade 100uFs from a specialty
>> electronics outlet.
>
> This is not true - the lowest cost 100uF capacitor at Radio Shack store
> runs about $1.29, not ten cents. So, the RS parts cost even more than the
> price you quoted for the specialty electronics outlet (about $0.80).

Radio shack is strictly retail. Wholesale outlets do far better on component
pricing.

>>> This is analogous to the Rolls Royce and Chevy Nova both
>>>> being cars with 4 doors and 4 wheels. The similarity
>>>> ends there.
>>>
>>> Thing is, Roly Royces and Chevy Novas are violently
>>> different cars, on just about every relevant ground. You
>>> can't turn a Nova into a Silver Shadow by putting on a
>>> new coat of paint, adding different mouse oil to the
>>> crankcase, now can you?
>>
>> It was a loose analogy. The differences with these 2
>> products may be more subtle.
>
> Anything may in some sense be, but only a limited subset of all possibilties
> actually is.
>

Re: Can you see the similarities?

Arny Krueger wrote:
> Pioneer
>
> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938 1.jpg
>
> versus
>
> Goldmund
>
> http :// audiostereo.lukarnet,com /gfx/960000/969938 2.jpg
>

I just saw the price difference between the 2 units; $100 vs $10,000.
I'd buy the $100 unit and tweak it with mods to make it hopefully sound
like the $10,000 unit. That of course assumes that the Goldmund unit
really does sound better.

CD