Phono reamp recommendation

Phono reamp recommendation

I've just acquired a Pro-ject Debut III and Pro-ject Speed Box whose
sole purpose will be to sit near a PC for digitizing purposes. I need
a not-too-expensive RIAA preamp to connect the turntable to the M-
Audio card in the PC.

The leaders in the clubhouse are the Project Phono Box II (~$125) and
the TDL Tech 403/409 (~$200). I'm leaning toward the TDL because the
(fixed) gain in the newest Phono Box may be a little too high for
recording purposes.

Any comments on either of these devices or recommendations for
alternatives?

Re: Phono reamp recommendation

On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 08:17:37 -0800, squirrelf@hotmail,com wrote
(in article <fokjn101cmt@news1.newsguy,com >):

> I've just acquired a Pro-ject Debut III and Pro-ject Speed Box whose
> sole purpose will be to sit near a PC for digitizing purposes. I need
> a not-too-expensive RIAA preamp to connect the turntable to the M-
> Audio card in the PC.
>
> The leaders in the clubhouse are the Project Phono Box II (~$125) and
> the TDL Tech 403/409 (~$200). I'm leaning toward the TDL because the
> (fixed) gain in the newest Phono Box may be a little too high for
> recording purposes.
>
> Any comments on either of these devices or recommendations for
> alternatives?

I have the Bellari Tube phone stage. At $250, it's priced right and it sounds
REALLY good with accurate RIAA. It sports a headphone jack, variable gain, a
rumble filter and a mute switch making it just perfect for what you are
doing.

http :// www .musicdirect,com /product/73106

Re: Phono reamp recommendation

<squirrelf@hotmail,com > wrote in message
news:fokjn101cmt@news1.newsguy,com

> I've just acquired a Pro-ject Debut III and Pro-ject
> Speed Box whose sole purpose will be to sit near a PC for
> digitizing purposes. I need a not-too-expensive RIAA
> preamp to connect the turntable to the M- Audio card in
> the PC.

A legacy preamp from the used equipment market might be a good choice. Along
the way I've picked up a PAT-5, an Apt/Holman, and a Conrad-Johnson. The
latter seems to be the most reliable and easiest to use.

Re: Phono reamp recommendation

On Feb 9, 10:40 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop,com > wrote:
> <squirr...@hotmail,com > wrote in message
>
> news:fokjn101cmt@news1.newsguy,com
>
> > I've just acquired a Pro-ject Debut III and Pro-ject
> > Speed Box whose sole purpose will be to sit near a PC for
> > digitizing purposes.  I need a not-too-expensive RIAA
> > preamp to connect the turntable to the M- Audio card in
> > the PC.
>
> A legacy preamp from the used equipment market might be a good choice. Along
> the way I've picked up a PAT-5, an Apt/Holman, and a Conrad-Johnson. The
> latter seems to be the most reliable and easiest to use.

The PAT-5 requires an external amp to drive headphones. You may want
to reject that one for that reason. Several other pre-amps are
similarly challenged, so be sure you have an on-board headphone driver
if that is an issue for you.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

Re: Phono reamp recommendation

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 16:11:10 -0800, Peter Wieck wrote
(in article <foqo6u02t5v@news1.newsguy,com >):

> On Feb 9, 10:40 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop,com > wrote:
>> <squirr...@hotmail,com > wrote in message
>>
>> news:fokjn101cmt@news1.newsguy,com
>>
>>> I've just acquired a Pro-ject Debut III and Pro-ject
>>> Speed Box whose sole purpose will be to sit near a PC for
>>> digitizing purposes.  I need a not-too-expensive RIAA
>>> preamp to connect the turntable to the M- Audio card in
>>> the PC.
>>
>> A legacy preamp from the used equipment market might be a good choice. Along
>> the way I've picked up a PAT-5, an Apt/Holman, and a Conrad-Johnson. The
>> latter seems to be the most reliable and easiest to use.
>
> The PAT-5 requires an external amp to drive headphones. You may want
> to reject that one for that reason. Several other pre-amps are
> similarly challenged, so be sure you have an on-board headphone driver
> if that is an issue for you.
>
> Peter Wieck
> Wyncote, PA

That's why I suggested the Bellari VP-129. It has everything one needs
INCLUDING an excellent headphone amp with its own volume control..

Re: Phono reamp recommendation

"Peter Wieck" <pfjw@aol,com > wrote in message
news:foqo6u02t5v@news1.newsguy,com
> On Feb 9, 10:40 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop,com >
> wrote:
>> <squirr...@hotmail,com > wrote in message
>>
>> news:fokjn101cmt@news1.newsguy,com
>>
>>> I've just acquired a Pro-ject Debut III and Pro-ject
>>> Speed Box whose sole purpose will be to sit near a PC
>>> for digitizing purposes. I need a not-too-expensive RIAA
>>> preamp to connect the turntable to the M- Audio card in
>>> the PC.
>>
>> A legacy preamp from the used equipment market might be
>> a good choice. Along the way I've picked up a PAT-5, an
>> Apt/Holman, and a Conrad-Johnson. The latter seems to be
>> the most reliable and easiest to use.
>
> The PAT-5 requires an external amp to drive headphones.
> You may want to reject that one for that reason. Several
> other pre-amps are similarly challenged, so be sure you
> have an on-board headphone driver if that is an issue for
> you.

You can generally drive the headphones from the PC's audio interface.
Virtually every PC audio interface has some way to route the input signal
being recorded to its output.

Re: Phono reamp recommendation

On Feb 9, 11:17 am, squirr...@hotmail,com wrote:
> I've just acquired a Pro-ject Debut III and Pro-ject Speed Box whose
> sole purpose will be to sit near a PC for digitizing purposes. I need
> a not-too-expensive RIAA preamp to connect the turntable to the M-
> Audio card in the PC.
>
> The leaders in the clubhouse are the Project Phono Box II (~$125) and
> the TDL Tech 403/409 (~$200). I'm leaning toward the TDL because the
> (fixed) gain in the newest Phono Box may be a little too high for
> recording purposes.
>
> Any comments on either of these devices or recommendations for
> alternatives?

I like the idea of a used vintage pre-amp as you can incorporate it
into your stereo or A/V system if needed and likely have a much better
preamp than comes in most A/V receiver today.

However, since you are going to archive your vinyl, please let me
gently suggest you DO NOT ARCHIVE on CR-R or CD-RW media: Archive on
an external hard drive, and keep your vinyl in climate controlled
storage.

Why? Because virtually all consumer CR-R's and CR-RW's use a "dye-
sublimation" process to burn the pits into the disc. This means the
laser is burning pits into a coloured dye substrate layer, not a
metallic aluminum substrate layer that is used in commercial CD's and
DVD's.

No computer CD or DVD burner has a laser powerful enough to burn pits
into aluminum, so the industry adapted the "dye-sublimation" process
for the low-power lasers used in consumer burners to burn pits into a
layer of coloured dye.

But, and this is a BIG BUT, this dye, over time, will run back
together and the pits you have burned in your disc will disappear. The
Smithsonian Institute was one of the first to get bitten by this when
they began archiving crumbling wax cylinder and shellac disc media
some years back onto regular consumer CD-R's. Now, virtually all of
these CD-R's are unplayable, and in some cases the media they were
recorded from was damaged beyond repair during the recording process.

Some manufacturers claim to sell 100 year archival CD-R's, but I would
take their claims with a grain of salt. As old as the vinyl format is,
no one has yet to develop a longer-lasting format if the LP's are kept
clean, dry, and in a low-humidity environment. And commercial CD's and
DVD's made with an aluminum substrate layer also probably have a long
life-expentency.

So were I to undertake such a project, I would not even bother with
the CR-R's or DVD's you can buy in any of the office stores - I would
look for an external big hard drive to use to archive onto, and I
would then back up it's information on another external HD just to be
safe. And I would keep my original media.

Re: Phono reamp recommendation

"Vinyl Rules!" <timbritt@cyber-wizard,com > wrote in message
news:fotrl202kdv@news2.newsguy,com

> However, since you are going to archive your vinyl,
> please let me gently suggest you DO NOT ARCHIVE on CR-R
> or CD-RW media: Archive on an external hard drive, and
> keep your vinyl in climate controlled storage.

I agree that vinyl should be carefully stored after transcription, and so
should the CD-Rs. However, hard drives aren't reliable means of archiving,
either. Hard drives can definately fail while being stored.

> Why? Because virtually all consumer CR-R's and CR-RW's
> use a "dye- sublimation" process to burn the pits into
> the disc. This means the laser is burning pits into a
> coloured dye substrate layer, not a metallic aluminum
> substrate layer that is used in commercial CD's and DVD's.

This method of storing data is known to last for dozens of years, by means
of practical example and acellerated life testing.

> But, and this is a BIG BUT, this dye, over time, will run
> back together and the pits you have burned in your disc
> will disappear. The Smithsonian Institute was one of the
> first to get bitten by this when they began archiving
> crumbling wax cylinder and shellac disc media some years
> back onto regular consumer CD-R's.

I know of no medium that hasn't failed for the Smithsonian.

> Now, virtually all of
> these CD-R's are unplayable, and in some cases the media
> they were recorded from was damaged beyond repair during
> the recording process.

I searched for credible references to confirm this, and found none. Please
provide a link.

> Some manufacturers claim to sell 100 year archival
> CD-R's, but I would take their claims with a grain of
> salt.

Caution is always a good thing.

> As old as the vinyl format is, no one has yet to
> develop a longer-lasting format if the LP's are kept
> clean, dry, and in a low-humidity environment.

I have never worked with media that was more prone to sonic degradation than
vinyl and analog tape.

> And commercial CD's and DVD's made with an aluminum substrate
> layer also probably have a long life-expentency.

I know of no commercial CD or DVD product that uses any substrate other than
polycarbonate.

> So were I to undertake such a project, I would not even
> bother with the CR-R's or DVD's you can buy in any of the
> office stores - I would look for an external big hard
> drive to use to archive onto, and I would then back up
> it's information on another external HD just to be safe.
> And I would keep my original media.

The gold standard for recordable CD and DVD meida is usually given as being
Taiyo Yuden. Their products are widely available for reasonable prices.

Re: Phono reamp recommendation

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:32:23 -0800, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article <fp026n01mtt@news4.newsguy,com >):

> "Vinyl Rules!" <timbritt@cyber-wizard,com > wrote in message
> news:fotrl202kdv@news2.newsguy,com
>
>> However, since you are going to archive your vinyl,
>> please let me gently suggest you DO NOT ARCHIVE on CR-R
>> or CD-RW media: Archive on an external hard drive, and
>> keep your vinyl in climate controlled storage.
>
> I agree that vinyl should be carefully stored after transcription, and so
> should the CD-Rs. However, hard drives aren't reliable means of archiving,
> either. Hard drives can definately fail while being stored.
>
>> Why? Because virtually all consumer CR-R's and CR-RW's
>> use a "dye- sublimation" process to burn the pits into
>> the disc. This means the laser is burning pits into a
>> coloured dye substrate layer, not a metallic aluminum
>> substrate layer that is used in commercial CD's and DVD's.
>
> This method of storing data is known to last for dozens of years, by means
> of practical example and acellerated life testing.
>
>> But, and this is a BIG BUT, this dye, over time, will run
>> back together and the pits you have burned in your disc
>> will disappear. The Smithsonian Institute was one of the
>> first to get bitten by this when they began archiving
>> crumbling wax cylinder and shellac disc media some years
>> back onto regular consumer CD-R's.
>
> I know of no medium that hasn't failed for the Smithsonian.

I do. Phonograph records where the newly cut disc has been plated as in the
pressing process and the plated negative and the record master are not
separated, but left together. If stored in low humidity at a constant room
temperature, these should last forever.

>> Now, virtually all of
>> these CD-R's are unplayable, and in some cases the media
>> they were recorded from was damaged beyond repair during
>> the recording process.
>
> I searched for credible references to confirm this, and found none. Please
> provide a link.
>
>> Some manufacturers claim to sell 100 year archival
>> CD-R's, but I would take their claims with a grain of
>> salt.
>
> Caution is always a good thing.
>
>> As old as the vinyl format is, no one has yet to
>> develop a longer-lasting format if the LP's are kept
>> clean, dry, and in a low-humidity environment.
>
> I have never worked with media that was more prone to sonic degradation than
> vinyl and analog tape.

I'm afraid you're only half right. Tape will degrade over time regardless of
how it's stored. Storing it under ideal conditions will only forestall the
inevitable. OTOH, an analog record if sealed, stored on edge with constant
pressure in a low humidity, constant room temperature environment it will,
literally last forever (assuming it's not played, of course).
>
>> And commercial CD's and DVD's made with an aluminum substrate
>> layer also probably have a long life-expentency.

>
> I know of no commercial CD or DVD product that uses any substrate other than
> polycarbonate.

I think he means aluminized polycarbonate substrate.

>> So were I to undertake such a project, I would not even
>> bother with the CR-R's or DVD's you can buy in any of the
>> office stores - I would look for an external big hard
>> drive to use to archive onto, and I would then back up
>> it's information on another external HD just to be safe.
>> And I would keep my original media.
>
> The gold standard for recordable CD and DVD meida is usually given as being
> Taiyo Yuden. Their products are widely available for reasonable prices.
>

Re: Phono reamp recommendation

On Feb 14, 6:06 pm, Sonnova <sonn...@audiosanatorium,com > wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:32:23 -0800, Arny Krueger wrote
> (in article <fp026n01...@news4.newsguy,com >):
>
>
>
> > "Vinyl Rules!" <timbr...@cyber-wizard,com > wrote in message
> >news:fotrl202kdv@news2.newsguy,com
>
> >> However, since you are going to archive your vinyl,
> >> please let me gently suggest you DO NOT ARCHIVE on CR-R
> >> or CD-RW media: Archive on an external hard drive, and
> >> keep your vinyl in climate controlled storage.
>
> > I agree that vinyl should be carefully stored after transcription, and so
> > should the CD-Rs. However, hard drives aren't reliable means of archiving,
> > either. Hard drives can definately fail while being stored.
>
> >> Why? Because virtually all consumer CR-R's and CR-RW's
> >> use a "dye- sublimation" process to burn the pits into
> >> the disc. This means the laser is burning pits into a
> >> coloured dye substrate layer, not a metallic aluminum
> >> substrate layer that is used in commercial CD's and DVD's.
>
> > This method of storing data is known to last for dozens of years, by means
> > of practical example and acellerated life testing.
>
> >> But, and this is a BIG BUT, this dye, over time, will run
> >> back together and the pits you have burned in your disc
> >> will disappear. The Smithsonian Institute was one of the
> >> first to get bitten by this when they began archiving
> >> crumbling wax cylinder and shellac disc media some years
> >> back onto regular consumer CD-R's.
>
> > I know of no medium that hasn't failed for the Smithsonian.
>
> I do. Phonograph records where the newly cut disc has been plated as in the
> pressing process and the plated negative and the record master are not
> separated, but left together. If stored in low humidity at a constant room
> temperature, these should last forever.
>
>
>
> >> Now, virtually all of
> >> these CD-R's are unplayable, and in some cases the media
> >> they were recorded from was damaged beyond repair during
> >> the recording process.
>
> > I searched for credible references to confirm this, and found none. Please
> > provide a link.
>
> >> Some manufacturers claim to sell 100 year archival
> >> CD-R's, but I would take their claims with a grain of
> >> salt.
>
> > Caution is always a good thing.
>
> >> As old as the vinyl format is, no one has yet to
> >> develop a longer-lasting format if the LP's are kept
> >> clean, dry, and in a low-humidity environment.
>
> > I have never worked with media that was more prone to sonic degradation than
> > vinyl and analog tape.
>
> I'm afraid you're only half right. Tape will degrade over time regardless of
> how it's stored. Storing it under ideal conditions will only forestall the
> inevitable. OTOH, an analog record if sealed, stored on edge with constant
> pressure in a low humidity, constant room temperature environment it will,
> literally last forever (assuming it's not played, of course).
>
>
>
> >> And commercial CD's and DVD's made with an aluminum substrate
> >> layer also probably have a long life-expentency.
>
> > I know of no commercial CD or DVD product that uses any substrate other than
> > polycarbonate.
>
> I think he means aluminized polycarbonate substrate.
>
> >> So were I to undertake such a project, I would not even
> >> bother with the CR-R's or DVD's you can buy in any of the
> >> office stores - I would look for an external big hard
> >> drive to use to archive onto, and I would then back up
> >> it's information on another external HD just to be safe.
> >> And I would keep my original media.
>
> > The gold standard for recordable CD and DVD meida is usually given as being
> > Taiyo Yuden. Their products are widely available for reasonable prices.

I agree that vinyl, if it's not abused and properly stored, will sound
about
the same as it did the day it was pressed. My Miles Davis records from
the
50's are a little dirty from having been played over the years, but
they
haven't really 'degraded' at all. Just about any digital medium will
degrade all by itself, regardless of how it's stored. I wish analog
tape
didn't degrade, but there are at least ways of getting at least one
last
play out of a tape that's falling apart (tape baking, etc).

As far as Taiyo Yuden CD-R's go, there are plenty of counterfeits out
there
now, so do your homework, and buy from a reputable dealer.

-Neb

Re: Phono reamp recommendation

"Vinyl Rules!" <timbritt@cyber-wizard,com > wrote in message
news:fotrl202kdv@news2.newsguy,com ...
> On Feb 9, 11:17 am, squirr...@hotmail,com wrote:
>> I've just acquired a Pro-ject Debut III and Pro-ject Speed Box whose
>> sole purpose will be to sit near a PC for digitizing purposes. I need
>> a not-too-expensive RIAA preamp to connect the turntable to the M-
>> Audio card in the PC.
>>
>> The leaders in the clubhouse are the Project Phono Box II (~$125) and
>> the TDL Tech 403/409 (~$200). I'm leaning toward the TDL because the
>> (fixed) gain in the newest Phono Box may be a little too high for
>> recording purposes.
>>
>> Any comments on either of these devices or recommendations for
>> alternatives?
>
> I like the idea of a used vintage pre-amp as you can incorporate it
> into your stereo or A/V system if needed and likely have a much better
> preamp than comes in most A/V receiver today.
>
> However, since you are going to archive your vinyl, please let me
> gently suggest you DO NOT ARCHIVE on CR-R or CD-RW media: Archive on
> an external hard drive, and keep your vinyl in climate controlled
> storage.

Archive? I'd expect that anyone going to the effort of transferring vinyl
to a digital medium isn't doing so to "archive" the vinyl...the vinyl itself
is far and away the best means to "archive" that audio. The real point to
this transfer is to allow playback on portable devices (iPod, ferex), not as
an archive.

> Why? Because virtually all consumer CR-R's and CR-RW's use a "dye-
> sublimation" process to burn the pits into the disc.

I don't wish to seem rude here, but it really bothers me when someone
displays their ignorance in such an egregious manner.

JFGI.

http :// www .imation,com /products/cd-r_media/la_cdrw_technology.html "In a
CD-R, the recording layer is made with organic dyes - greenish cyanine dye,
golden phthalocyanine dye, or silver-blue azo dye, depending on the disc
manufacturer. While there are differences among the dyes, the differences
are probably most important to chemists, not to CD-R users. Each dye's
quality is such that which dye is used makes no difference for disc use and
life.
The laser of your CD-R/CD-RW drive heats the dye to a temperature of about
200° C, irreversibly melting a pitted pattern into the recording layer. A
plastic layer alongside the dye expands into the newly available space,
creating a pit pattern similar to that of a conventional CD. Your CD player
reads this highly reflective pattern for playback. Because the plastic layer
melts into the dye layer to set the pattern, CD-R discs cannot be
re-recorded.

CD-RW Technology
Unlike CD-R discs, a CD-RW disc can be reused - in fact, up to 1,000 times
with current discs, and perhaps even more with upcoming media improvements.
However, older computer CD drives and audio CD players cannot read CD-RW
media.

In a CD-RW disc, the recording layer is made of an alloy of silver and other
metals - indium, antimony, and tellurium. Out of the case, this layer has a
polycrystalline structure. When you record to the CD-RW, your CD-RW drive's
laser selectively heats tiny areas of the recording track to a temperature
above the layer's melting point (500 - 700° C) - a much higher heat than the
laser in a CD-R recorder can reach.

The energy delivered by the laser beam melts the crystals in the heated
areas into a non-crystalline phase - also known as "pits." These pits
reflect less light than the remaining crystalline areas, creating the
playback pattern for your Multi-Read CD-ROM drive or specialized audio CD
player."

> This means the
> laser is burning pits into a coloured dye substrate layer, not a
> metallic aluminum substrate layer that is used in commercial CD's and
> DVD's.
>
> No computer CD or DVD burner has a laser powerful enough to burn pits
> into aluminum, so the industry adapted the "dye-sublimation" process
> for the low-power lasers used in consumer burners to burn pits into a
> layer of coloured dye.
>
> But, and this is a BIG BUT, this dye, over time, will run back
> together and the pits you have burned in your disc will disappear. The
> Smithsonian Institute was one of the first to get bitten by this when
> they began archiving crumbling wax cylinder and shellac disc media
> some years back onto regular consumer CD-R's. Now, virtually all of
> these CD-R's are unplayable, and in some cases the media they were
> recorded from was damaged beyond repair during the recording process.
>
> Some manufacturers claim to sell 100 year archival CD-R's, but I would
> take their claims with a grain of salt. As old as the vinyl format is,
> no one has yet to develop a longer-lasting format if the LP's are kept
> clean, dry, and in a low-humidity environment. And commercial CD's and
> DVD's made with an aluminum substrate layer also probably have a long
> life-expentency.
>
> So were I to undertake such a project, I would not even bother with
> the CR-R's or DVD's you can buy in any of the office stores - I would
> look for an external big hard drive to use to archive onto, and I
> would then back up it's information on another external HD just to be
> safe. And I would keep my original media.

Re: Phono reamp recommendation

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:27:28 -0800, Ghod wrote
(in article <fqi1h00aov@news3.newsguy,com >):

> "Vinyl Rules!" <timbritt@cyber-wizard,com > wrote in message
> news:fotrl202kdv@news2.newsguy,com ...
>> On Feb 9, 11:17 am, squirr...@hotmail,com wrote:
>>> I've just acquired a Pro-ject Debut III and Pro-ject Speed Box whose
>>> sole purpose will be to sit near a PC for digitizing purposes. I need
>>> a not-too-expensive RIAA preamp to connect the turntable to the M-
>>> Audio card in the PC.
>>>
>>> The leaders in the clubhouse are the Project Phono Box II (~$125) and
>>> the TDL Tech 403/409 (~$200). I'm leaning toward the TDL because the
>>> (fixed) gain in the newest Phono Box may be a little too high for
>>> recording purposes.
>>>
>>> Any comments on either of these devices or recommendations for
>>> alternatives?
>>
>> I like the idea of a used vintage pre-amp as you can incorporate it
>> into your stereo or A/V system if needed and likely have a much better
>> preamp than comes in most A/V receiver today.
>>
>> However, since you are going to archive your vinyl, please let me
>> gently suggest you DO NOT ARCHIVE on CR-R or CD-RW media: Archive on
>> an external hard drive, and keep your vinyl in climate controlled
>> storage.
>
> Archive? I'd expect that anyone going to the effort of transferring vinyl
> to a digital medium isn't doing so to "archive" the vinyl...the vinyl itself
> is far and away the best means to "archive" that audio. The real point to
> this transfer is to allow playback on portable devices (iPod, ferex), not as
> an archive.
>
>> Why? Because virtually all consumer CR-R's and CR-RW's use a "dye-
>> sublimation" process to burn the pits into the disc.
>
> I don't wish to seem rude here, but it really bothers me when someone
> displays their ignorance in such an egregious manner.
>
> JFGI.
>
> http :// www .imation,com /products/cd-r media/la cdrw technology.html "In a
> CD-R, the recording layer is made with organic dyes - greenish cyanine dye,
> golden phthalocyanine dye, or silver-blue azo dye, depending on the disc
> manufacturer. While there are differences among the dyes, the differences
> are probably most important to chemists, not to CD-R users. Each dye's
> quality is such that which dye is used makes no difference for disc use and
> life.
> The laser of your CD-R/CD-RW drive heats the dye to a temperature of about
> 200° C, irreversibly melting a pitted pattern into the recording layer. A
> plastic layer alongside the dye expands into the newly available space,
> creating a pit pattern similar to that of a conventional CD. Your CD player
> reads this highly reflective pattern for playback. Because the plastic layer
> melts into the dye layer to set the pattern, CD-R discs cannot be
> re-recorded.
>
> CD-RW Technology
> Unlike CD-R discs, a CD-RW disc can be reused - in fact, up to 1,000 times
> with current discs, and perhaps even more with upcoming media improvements.
> However, older computer CD drives and audio CD players cannot read CD-RW
> media.
>
> In a CD-RW disc, the recording layer is made of an alloy of silver and other
> metals - indium, antimony, and tellurium. Out of the case, this layer has a
> polycrystalline structure. When you record to the CD-RW, your CD-RW drive's
> laser selectively heats tiny areas of the recording track to a temperature
> above the layer's melting point (500 - 700° C) - a much higher heat than the
> laser in a CD-R recorder can reach.
>
> The energy delivered by the laser beam melts the crystals in the heated
> areas into a non-crystalline phase - also known as "pits." These pits
> reflect less light than the remaining crystalline areas, creating the
> playback pattern for your Multi-Read CD-ROM drive or specialized audio CD
> player."

I think the dyes are there merely to have something dark in the recording
area to absorb, rather than reflect the laser beam. It;s this absorption that
likely causes the heat required to melt the pits into the media. In any
event, those familiar with photographic print processes will know that azo
dyes are the most stable and permanent that there are. They are used in
archival print processes such as Cibachrome, which does not fade, not even in
direct sunlight (according to the Library of Congress photographic section).
>
>> This means the
>> laser is burning pits into a coloured dye substrate layer, not a
>> metallic aluminum substrate layer that is used in commercial CD's and
>> DVD's.
>>
>> No computer CD or DVD burner has a laser powerful enough to burn pits
>> into aluminum, so the industry adapted the "dye-sublimation" process
>> for the low-power lasers used in consumer burners to burn pits into a
>> layer of coloured dye.
>>
>> But, and this is a BIG BUT, this dye, over time, will run back
>> together and the pits you have burned in your disc will disappear. The
>> Smithsonian Institute was one of the first to get bitten by this when
>> they began archiving crumbling wax cylinder and shellac disc media
>> some years back onto regular consumer CD-R's. Now, virtually all of
>> these CD-R's are unplayable, and in some cases the media they were
>> recorded from was damaged beyond repair during the recording process.
>>
>> Some manufacturers claim to sell 100 year archival CD-R's, but I would
>> take their claims with a grain of salt. As old as the vinyl format is,
>> no one has yet to develop a longer-lasting format if the LP's are kept
>> clean, dry, and in a low-humidity environment. And commercial CD's and
>> DVD's made with an aluminum substrate layer also probably have a long
>> life-expentency.
>>
>> So were I to undertake such a project, I would not even bother with
>> the CR-R's or DVD's you can buy in any of the office stores - I would
>> look for an external big hard drive to use to archive onto, and I
>> would then back up it's information on another external HD just to be
>> safe. And I would keep my original media.

Re: Phono reamp recommendation

"Ghod" <ghod@ameritech,net > wrote in message
news:fqi1h00aov@news3.newsguy,com ...
> "Vinyl Rules!" <timbritt@cyber-wizard,com > wrote in message
> news:fotrl202kdv@news2.newsguy,com ...
>> On Feb 9, 11:17 am, squirr...@hotmail,com wrote:
>>> I've just acquired a Pro-ject Debut III and Pro-ject Speed Box whose
>>> sole purpose will be to sit near a PC for digitizing purposes. I need
>>> a not-too-expensive RIAA preamp to connect the turntable to the M-
>>> Audio card in the PC.
>>>
>>> The leaders in the clubhouse are the Project Phono Box II (~$125) and
>>> the TDL Tech 403/409 (~$200). I'm leaning toward the TDL because the
>>> (fixed) gain in the newest Phono Box may be a little too high for
>>> recording purposes.
>>>
>>> Any comments on either of these devices or recommendations for
>>> alternatives?
>>
>> I like the idea of a used vintage pre-amp as you can incorporate it
>> into your stereo or A/V system if needed and likely have a much better
>> preamp than comes in most A/V receiver today.
>>
>> However, since you are going to archive your vinyl, please let me
>> gently suggest you DO NOT ARCHIVE on CR-R or CD-RW media: Archive on
>> an external hard drive, and keep your vinyl in climate controlled
>> storage.
>
> Archive? I'd expect that anyone going to the effort of transferring vinyl
> to a digital medium isn't doing so to "archive" the vinyl...the vinyl
> itself
> is far and away the best means to "archive" that audio. The real point to
> this transfer is to allow playback on portable devices (iPod, ferex), not
> as
> an archive.
>
>> Why? Because virtually all consumer CR-R's and CR-RW's use a "dye-
>> sublimation" process to burn the pits into the disc.
>
> I don't wish to seem rude here, but it really bothers me when someone
> displays their ignorance in such an egregious manner.
>
> JFGI.
>
> http :// www .imation,com /products/cd-r_media/la_cdrw_technology.html "In a
> CD-R, the recording layer is made with organic dyes - greenish cyanine
> dye,
> golden phthalocyanine dye, or silver-blue azo dye, depending on the disc
> manufacturer. While there are differences among the dyes, the differences
> are probably most important to chemists, not to CD-R users. Each dye's
> quality is such that which dye is used makes no difference for disc use
> and
> life.
> The laser of your CD-R/CD-RW drive heats the dye to a temperature of about
> 200° C, irreversibly melting a pitted pattern into the recording layer. A
> plastic layer alongside the dye expands into the newly available space,
> creating a pit pattern similar to that of a conventional CD. Your CD
> player
> reads this highly reflective pattern for playback. Because the plastic
> layer
> melts into the dye layer to set the pattern, CD-R discs cannot be
> re-recorded.
>
> CD-RW Technology
> Unlike CD-R discs, a CD-RW disc can be reused - in fact, up to 1,000 times
> with current discs, and perhaps even more with upcoming media
> improvements.
> However, older computer CD drives and audio CD players cannot read CD-RW
> media.
>
> In a CD-RW disc, the recording layer is made of an alloy of silver and
> other
> metals - indium, antimony, and tellurium. Out of the case, this layer has
> a
> polycrystalline structure. When you record to the CD-RW, your CD-RW
> drive's
> laser selectively heats tiny areas of the recording track to a temperature
> above the layer's melting point (500 - 700° C) - a much higher heat than
> the
> laser in a CD-R recorder can reach.
>
> The energy delivered by the laser beam melts the crystals in the heated
> areas into a non-crystalline phase - also known as "pits." These pits
> reflect less light than the remaining crystalline areas, creating the
> playback pattern for your Multi-Read CD-ROM drive or specialized audio CD
> player."
>
>> This means the
>> laser is burning pits into a coloured dye substrate layer, not a
>> metallic aluminum substrate layer that is used in commercial CD's and
>> DVD's.
>>
>> No computer CD or DVD burner has a laser powerful enough to burn pits
>> into aluminum, so the industry adapted the "dye-sublimation" process
>> for the low-power lasers used in consumer burners to burn pits into a
>> layer of coloured dye.
>>
>> But, and this is a BIG BUT, this dye, over time, will run back
>> together and the pits you have burned in your disc will disappear. The
>> Smithsonian Institute was one of the first to get bitten by this when
>> they began archiving crumbling wax cylinder and shellac disc media
>> some years back onto regular consumer CD-R's. Now, virtually all of
>> these CD-R's are unplayable, and in some cases the media they were
>> recorded from was damaged beyond repair during the recording process.
>>
>> Some manufacturers claim to sell 100 year archival CD-R's, but I would
>> take their claims with a grain of salt. As old as the vinyl format is,
>> no one has yet to develop a longer-lasting format if the LP's are kept
>> clean, dry, and in a low-humidity environment. And commercial CD's and
>> DVD's made with an aluminum substrate layer also probably have a long
>> life-expentency.
>>
>> So were I to undertake such a project, I would not even bother with
>> the CR-R's or DVD's you can buy in any of the office stores - I would
>> look for an external big hard drive to use to archive onto, and I
>> would then back up it's information on another external HD just to be
>> safe. And I would keep my original media.

IIRC early on and simply put, I read that recording onto CD-R caused
_chemical_ changes, whereas CD-RW involved _physical_ changes and that the
life expectancy of a CD-RW recording was orders of magnitude greater than
that for a CD-R, (in case anyone's concerned that they might outlive their
CD-Rs). Additionally it is known that CD-R recordings are degraded by
exposure to sun light, however I do not know if this is true of CD-RW.