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System down: Audiophile urgency
System down: Audiophile urgency
Hello all,
my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
the 0404 USB improved the system.
My system:
Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
convey the life of the music.
Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
"Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
"Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
"Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
"Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
movie soundtrack
Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
for the dual woofers.
Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
control, onto the speakers. That's it.
Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
and tweeter are SOL.
To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
given the history.
So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
I'm looking for:
Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
anyone could point me to other options.
Thanks in advance.
I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
criteria I mentioned above.
Thanks
CD
Hello all,
my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
the 0404 USB improved the system.
My system:
Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
convey the life of the music.
Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
"Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
"Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
"Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
"Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
movie soundtrack
Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
for the dual woofers.
Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
control, onto the speakers. That's it.
Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
and tweeter are SOL.
To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
given the history.
So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
I'm looking for:
Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
anyone could point me to other options.
Thanks in advance.
I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
criteria I mentioned above.
Thanks
CD
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote
(in article <ftt3lj019vo@news2.newsguy . com >):
> Hello all,
>
> my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
> breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
>
> Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
>
> Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
> have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
> near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
> system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
> the 0404 USB improved the system.
>
> My system:
>
> Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
> The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
> 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
> rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
>
> Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
> Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
> handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
> web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
> Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
> Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
> good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
> fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
>
> Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
> the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
> which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
> respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
> take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
> flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
> there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
> convey the life of the music.
>
> Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
> ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
> respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
> their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
> in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
> previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
> times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
> With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
> for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
>
> "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
> "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
> "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
> "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
> movie soundtrack
>
> Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
> single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
> speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
> for the dual woofers.
>
> Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
> audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
> control, onto the speakers. That's it.
>
> Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
> 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
> and tweeter are SOL.
> To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
> that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
> this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
>
> For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
> other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
> given the history.
>
> So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
> I'm looking for:
>
> Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
>
> 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
>
> Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
> look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
> whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
> These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
>
> Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
>
> I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
> anyone could point me to other options.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
> its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
>
> Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
> criteria I mentioned above.
>
> Thanks
>
> CD
>
I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I
do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or
buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger
amplifier, or better yet, do both!
Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your
Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much
power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no
uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs
(the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping
amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they
get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is
turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but
essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded,
they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100
W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the
crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote
(in article <ftt3lj019vo@news2.newsguy . com >):
> Hello all,
>
> my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
> breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
>
> Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
>
> Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
> have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
> near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
> system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
> the 0404 USB improved the system.
>
> My system:
>
> Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
> The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
> 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
> rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
>
> Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
> Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
> handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
> web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
> Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
> Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
> good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
> fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
>
> Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
> the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
> which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
> respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
> take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
> flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
> there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
> convey the life of the music.
>
> Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
> ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
> respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
> their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
> in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
> previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
> times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
> With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
> for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
>
> "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
> "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
> "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
> "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
> movie soundtrack
>
> Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
> single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
> speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
> for the dual woofers.
>
> Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
> audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
> control, onto the speakers. That's it.
>
> Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
> 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
> and tweeter are SOL.
> To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
> that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
> this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
>
> For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
> other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
> given the history.
>
> So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
> I'm looking for:
>
> Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
>
> 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
>
> Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
> look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
> whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
> These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
>
> Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
>
> I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
> anyone could point me to other options.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
> its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
>
> Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
> criteria I mentioned above.
>
> Thanks
>
> CD
>
I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I
do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or
buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger
amplifier, or better yet, do both!
Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your
Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much
power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no
uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs
(the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping
amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they
get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is
turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but
essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded,
they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100
W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the
crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
"Sonnova" <sonnova@audiosanatorium . com > wrote in message
news:ftuehs0qqr@news4.newsguy . com
> I can't give you any recommendations with regard to
> specific speakers, but I do have a suggestion: Whether
> you get your current speakers fixed again or buy new ones
> either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a
> bigger amplifier, or better yet, do both!
The fuse is a good idea. The bigger amp???
> Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are
> likely clipping your Yamaha and clipping amps will fry
> speakers a lot quicker than will too-much power.
Well, that's a testiable hypothesis, albeit a controversial one.
The down side is that the Yamaha AX-596 is already speced at 100-145 wpc,
which is actually quite a bit of power.
* w w w .yamaha.co.jp/english/product/av/products/hf/ax596.html
The Yamaha AX-596 does have preamp outs and power amp inputs on the back
panel, normally linked together.
So, a separate power amp can be added without also having to get a new
preamp.
In order to have appreciably more power, anywhere from 200 (+3 dB) to 400
(+6 dB) wpc would required. To get twice as loud subjectively without
clipping, would require 1000 wpc.
There are few consumer power amps with this kind of power for a reasonable
price. The pro audio world has some attractive options, but as a rule they
have cooling fans which requires that you either risk disabling the fans or
put the amps where the fan noise will not disturb your listening.
If you want a lot of clean power for not much money, check out the Behringer
EP-2500, which will deliver about 500 wpc into 6 ohms for less than $400.
If you clip out this power amp frequently, you will no doubt destroy your
speakers. I have a number of friends who have these in very high end
audiophile systems, and they are very clean and very powerful, despite the
low price. To give you an idea of what kind of power these amps can crank
out, I've seen them make 12 gauge stranded speaker wires literally dance to
the music (writhe and move rhythmically several inches) in the external
magnetic field of large subwoofers running as 2 ohm loads.
> As long
> as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in
> no uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long
> before any damage occurs (the cones will rattle and the
> voice coils will bottom-out),
Not necessarily true. A well-designed speaker will be impossible to bottom
out. Instead, the magnetic motors for the speakers will run out of force
before the cone or voice coil hits something solid.
This is especially true of tweeters, because they don't need to stroke very
far at all to produce lots of output.
> but clipping amps exceed
> the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors
> and they get hot with no chance to cool down between
> waveform peaks (a clipping amp is turned on-HARD for all
> the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
> current into the speakers non-stop.
This begs the question, which crossover parts can fail, and what happens
when they fail. I've seen some speaker crossovers that failed this way in
the hands of inexperienced DJs, and at frat house and dorm parties. This is
a common path to failure of consumer speakers, because consumer speakers as
a rule are not intended to be run very loud, very long.
It takes a lot of power to fry a crossover coil. Usually, the forms melt or
vibration causes enamel to be scraped away and then there may be arcing and
burning. I've seen crossover caps with inadequate voltage ratings explode.
I've seen power resistors in crossovers that were cracked in half.
Overstressed speaker drivers can literally catch on fire, but its more
likely that the voice coils will slowly cook, the voice coil might buble and
hang up on the magnetic pole pieces, and eventually insulation scrapes off
and shorts out the voice coil. Or the lead wires fracture, or the rubbing
causes an open, and the driver opens up.
> This is a gross
> simplification but essentially, when these components get
> their duty cycles constantly exceeded, they burn-up. A
> bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a
> 100 W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent
> speaker.
I've seen it happen, especially to midranges and tweeters. Another failure
involves drivers with magnetic damping fluid. The synthetic oil part of the
goo gets evaporated, and its all downhill after that.
> Especially the crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
The most common source of loudspeaker failure is as you seem to be
suggesting, simple excessive power causing things to heat up and fry. Often
all a more powerful amp accomplishes is to speed the process because it
takes a lot of power to have an amplifier that sounds significantly louder
than 100 wpc.
Looking forward, I see a need for speakers that can handle a lot of power
for a long time and keep ticking.
"Sonnova" <sonnova@audiosanatorium . com > wrote in message
news:ftuehs0qqr@news4.newsguy . com
> I can't give you any recommendations with regard to
> specific speakers, but I do have a suggestion: Whether
> you get your current speakers fixed again or buy new ones
> either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a
> bigger amplifier, or better yet, do both!
The fuse is a good idea. The bigger amp???
> Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are
> likely clipping your Yamaha and clipping amps will fry
> speakers a lot quicker than will too-much power.
Well, that's a testiable hypothesis, albeit a controversial one.
The down side is that the Yamaha AX-596 is already speced at 100-145 wpc,
which is actually quite a bit of power.
* w w w .yamaha.co.jp/english/product/av/products/hf/ax596.html
The Yamaha AX-596 does have preamp outs and power amp inputs on the back
panel, normally linked together.
So, a separate power amp can be added without also having to get a new
preamp.
In order to have appreciably more power, anywhere from 200 (+3 dB) to 400
(+6 dB) wpc would required. To get twice as loud subjectively without
clipping, would require 1000 wpc.
There are few consumer power amps with this kind of power for a reasonable
price. The pro audio world has some attractive options, but as a rule they
have cooling fans which requires that you either risk disabling the fans or
put the amps where the fan noise will not disturb your listening.
If you want a lot of clean power for not much money, check out the Behringer
EP-2500, which will deliver about 500 wpc into 6 ohms for less than $400.
If you clip out this power amp frequently, you will no doubt destroy your
speakers. I have a number of friends who have these in very high end
audiophile systems, and they are very clean and very powerful, despite the
low price. To give you an idea of what kind of power these amps can crank
out, I've seen them make 12 gauge stranded speaker wires literally dance to
the music (writhe and move rhythmically several inches) in the external
magnetic field of large subwoofers running as 2 ohm loads.
> As long
> as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in
> no uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long
> before any damage occurs (the cones will rattle and the
> voice coils will bottom-out),
Not necessarily true. A well-designed speaker will be impossible to bottom
out. Instead, the magnetic motors for the speakers will run out of force
before the cone or voice coil hits something solid.
This is especially true of tweeters, because they don't need to stroke very
far at all to produce lots of output.
> but clipping amps exceed
> the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors
> and they get hot with no chance to cool down between
> waveform peaks (a clipping amp is turned on-HARD for all
> the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
> current into the speakers non-stop.
This begs the question, which crossover parts can fail, and what happens
when they fail. I've seen some speaker crossovers that failed this way in
the hands of inexperienced DJs, and at frat house and dorm parties. This is
a common path to failure of consumer speakers, because consumer speakers as
a rule are not intended to be run very loud, very long.
It takes a lot of power to fry a crossover coil. Usually, the forms melt or
vibration causes enamel to be scraped away and then there may be arcing and
burning. I've seen crossover caps with inadequate voltage ratings explode.
I've seen power resistors in crossovers that were cracked in half.
Overstressed speaker drivers can literally catch on fire, but its more
likely that the voice coils will slowly cook, the voice coil might buble and
hang up on the magnetic pole pieces, and eventually insulation scrapes off
and shorts out the voice coil. Or the lead wires fracture, or the rubbing
causes an open, and the driver opens up.
> This is a gross
> simplification but essentially, when these components get
> their duty cycles constantly exceeded, they burn-up. A
> bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a
> 100 W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent
> speaker.
I've seen it happen, especially to midranges and tweeters. Another failure
involves drivers with magnetic damping fluid. The synthetic oil part of the
goo gets evaporated, and its all downhill after that.
> Especially the crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
The most common source of loudspeaker failure is as you seem to be
suggesting, simple excessive power causing things to heat up and fry. Often
all a more powerful amp accomplishes is to speed the process because it
takes a lot of power to have an amplifier that sounds significantly louder
than 100 wpc.
Looking forward, I see a need for speakers that can handle a lot of power
for a long time and keep ticking.
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:55:33 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article <fu11ul0171a@news1.newsguy . com >):
> "Sonnova" <sonnova@audiosanatorium . com > wrote in message
> news:ftuehs0qqr@news4.newsguy . com
>
>> I can't give you any recommendations with regard to
>> specific speakers, but I do have a suggestion: Whether
>> you get your current speakers fixed again or buy new ones
>> either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a
>> bigger amplifier, or better yet, do both!
>
> The fuse is a good idea. The bigger amp???
>
>> Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are
>> likely clipping your Yamaha and clipping amps will fry
>> speakers a lot quicker than will too-much power.
>
> Well, that's a testiable hypothesis, albeit a controversial one.
>
> The down side is that the Yamaha AX-596 is already speced at 100-145 wpc,
> which is actually quite a bit of power.
>
> * w w w .yamaha.co.jp/english/product/av/products/hf/ax596.html
>
> The Yamaha AX-596 does have preamp outs and power amp inputs on the back
> panel, normally linked together.
>
> So, a separate power amp can be added without also having to get a new
> preamp.
>
> In order to have appreciably more power, anywhere from 200 (+3 dB) to 400
> (+6 dB) wpc would required. To get twice as loud subjectively without
> clipping, would require 1000 wpc.
>
> There are few consumer power amps with this kind of power for a reasonable
> price. The pro audio world has some attractive options, but as a rule they
> have cooling fans which requires that you either risk disabling the fans or
> put the amps where the fan noise will not disturb your listening.
>
> If you want a lot of clean power for not much money, check out the Behringer
> EP-2500, which will deliver about 500 wpc into 6 ohms for less than $400.
> If you clip out this power amp frequently, you will no doubt destroy your
> speakers. I have a number of friends who have these in very high end
> audiophile systems, and they are very clean and very powerful, despite the
> low price. To give you an idea of what kind of power these amps can crank
> out, I've seen them make 12 gauge stranded speaker wires literally dance to
> the music (writhe and move rhythmically several inches) in the external
> magnetic field of large subwoofers running as 2 ohm loads.
The Behringer amps are all excellent. I'll agree with that.
>
>> As long
>> as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in
>> no uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long
>> before any damage occurs (the cones will rattle and the
>> voice coils will bottom-out),
>
> Not necessarily true. A well-designed speaker will be impossible to bottom
> out. Instead, the magnetic motors for the speakers will run out of force
> before the cone or voice coil hits something solid.
>
> This is especially true of tweeters, because they don't need to stroke very
> far at all to produce lots of output.
Agreed, but these Cambridge speakers are fairly inexpensive.
>
>> but clipping amps exceed
>> the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors
>> and they get hot with no chance to cool down between
>> waveform peaks (a clipping amp is turned on-HARD for all
>> the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
>> current into the speakers non-stop.
>
> This begs the question, which crossover parts can fail, and what happens
> when they fail.
I've seen inductors get so hot that the varnish on the wire burns off
shorting turns. What this will do, at the very least, is to make the lowpass
not work.
I've seen some speaker crossovers that failed this way in
> the hands of inexperienced DJs, and at frat house and dorm parties. This is
> a common path to failure of consumer speakers, because consumer speakers as
> a rule are not intended to be run very loud, very long.
Yep.
>
> It takes a lot of power to fry a crossover coil. Usually, the forms melt or
> vibration causes enamel to be scraped away and then there may be arcing and
> burning. I've seen crossover caps with inadequate voltage ratings explode.
> I've seen power resistors in crossovers that were cracked in half.
Yep.
>
> Overstressed speaker drivers can literally catch on fire, but its more
> likely that the voice coils will slowly cook, the voice coil might buble and
> hang up on the magnetic pole pieces, and eventually insulation scrapes off
> and shorts out the voice coil. Or the lead wires fracture, or the rubbing
> causes an open, and the driver opens up.
True. All of these are known failure modes.
>
>> This is a gross
>> simplification but essentially, when these components get
>> their duty cycles constantly exceeded, they burn-up. A
>> bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a
>> 100 W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent
>> speaker.
>
> I've seen it happen, especially to midranges and tweeters. Another failure
> involves drivers with magnetic damping fluid. The synthetic oil part of the
> goo gets evaporated, and its all downhill after that.
>
>> Especially the crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
>
> The most common source of loudspeaker failure is as you seem to be
> suggesting, simple excessive power causing things to heat up and fry. Often
> all a more powerful amp accomplishes is to speed the process because it
> takes a lot of power to have an amplifier that sounds significantly louder
> than 100 wpc.
>
> Looking forward, I see a need for speakers that can handle a lot of power
> for a long time and keep ticking.
That's ultimately the best solution. Whether its a small amp clipping or a
large one over driving the speakers, the end results can be the same. My
point is that this poster might be listening to music so loudly that the amp
is in clipping much of the time. More power would allow him to achieve the
same ear-bleeding levels without the clipping - assuming, of course, that the
speakers are designed to withstand that kind of constant level.
>
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:55:33 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article <fu11ul0171a@news1.newsguy . com >):
> "Sonnova" <sonnova@audiosanatorium . com > wrote in message
> news:ftuehs0qqr@news4.newsguy . com
>
>> I can't give you any recommendations with regard to
>> specific speakers, but I do have a suggestion: Whether
>> you get your current speakers fixed again or buy new ones
>> either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a
>> bigger amplifier, or better yet, do both!
>
> The fuse is a good idea. The bigger amp???
>
>> Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are
>> likely clipping your Yamaha and clipping amps will fry
>> speakers a lot quicker than will too-much power.
>
> Well, that's a testiable hypothesis, albeit a controversial one.
>
> The down side is that the Yamaha AX-596 is already speced at 100-145 wpc,
> which is actually quite a bit of power.
>
> * w w w .yamaha.co.jp/english/product/av/products/hf/ax596.html
>
> The Yamaha AX-596 does have preamp outs and power amp inputs on the back
> panel, normally linked together.
>
> So, a separate power amp can be added without also having to get a new
> preamp.
>
> In order to have appreciably more power, anywhere from 200 (+3 dB) to 400
> (+6 dB) wpc would required. To get twice as loud subjectively without
> clipping, would require 1000 wpc.
>
> There are few consumer power amps with this kind of power for a reasonable
> price. The pro audio world has some attractive options, but as a rule they
> have cooling fans which requires that you either risk disabling the fans or
> put the amps where the fan noise will not disturb your listening.
>
> If you want a lot of clean power for not much money, check out the Behringer
> EP-2500, which will deliver about 500 wpc into 6 ohms for less than $400.
> If you clip out this power amp frequently, you will no doubt destroy your
> speakers. I have a number of friends who have these in very high end
> audiophile systems, and they are very clean and very powerful, despite the
> low price. To give you an idea of what kind of power these amps can crank
> out, I've seen them make 12 gauge stranded speaker wires literally dance to
> the music (writhe and move rhythmically several inches) in the external
> magnetic field of large subwoofers running as 2 ohm loads.
The Behringer amps are all excellent. I'll agree with that.
>
>> As long
>> as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in
>> no uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long
>> before any damage occurs (the cones will rattle and the
>> voice coils will bottom-out),
>
> Not necessarily true. A well-designed speaker will be impossible to bottom
> out. Instead, the magnetic motors for the speakers will run out of force
> before the cone or voice coil hits something solid.
>
> This is especially true of tweeters, because they don't need to stroke very
> far at all to produce lots of output.
Agreed, but these Cambridge speakers are fairly inexpensive.
>
>> but clipping amps exceed
>> the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors
>> and they get hot with no chance to cool down between
>> waveform peaks (a clipping amp is turned on-HARD for all
>> the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
>> current into the speakers non-stop.
>
> This begs the question, which crossover parts can fail, and what happens
> when they fail.
I've seen inductors get so hot that the varnish on the wire burns off
shorting turns. What this will do, at the very least, is to make the lowpass
not work.
I've seen some speaker crossovers that failed this way in
> the hands of inexperienced DJs, and at frat house and dorm parties. This is
> a common path to failure of consumer speakers, because consumer speakers as
> a rule are not intended to be run very loud, very long.
Yep.
>
> It takes a lot of power to fry a crossover coil. Usually, the forms melt or
> vibration causes enamel to be scraped away and then there may be arcing and
> burning. I've seen crossover caps with inadequate voltage ratings explode.
> I've seen power resistors in crossovers that were cracked in half.
Yep.
>
> Overstressed speaker drivers can literally catch on fire, but its more
> likely that the voice coils will slowly cook, the voice coil might buble and
> hang up on the magnetic pole pieces, and eventually insulation scrapes off
> and shorts out the voice coil. Or the lead wires fracture, or the rubbing
> causes an open, and the driver opens up.
True. All of these are known failure modes.
>
>> This is a gross
>> simplification but essentially, when these components get
>> their duty cycles constantly exceeded, they burn-up. A
>> bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a
>> 100 W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent
>> speaker.
>
> I've seen it happen, especially to midranges and tweeters. Another failure
> involves drivers with magnetic damping fluid. The synthetic oil part of the
> goo gets evaporated, and its all downhill after that.
>
>> Especially the crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
>
> The most common source of loudspeaker failure is as you seem to be
> suggesting, simple excessive power causing things to heat up and fry. Often
> all a more powerful amp accomplishes is to speed the process because it
> takes a lot of power to have an amplifier that sounds significantly louder
> than 100 wpc.
>
> Looking forward, I see a need for speakers that can handle a lot of power
> for a long time and keep ticking.
That's ultimately the best solution. Whether its a small amp clipping or a
large one over driving the speakers, the end results can be the same. My
point is that this poster might be listening to music so loudly that the amp
is in clipping much of the time. More power would allow him to achieve the
same ear-bleeding levels without the clipping - assuming, of course, that the
speakers are designed to withstand that kind of constant level.
>
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
Without commenting about failure mode or speaker quality, I would like
to bring the following into consideration:
- Does an audiophile really want to place a non-linear current
dependent resistor in series with the speaker system (fuse), though
the induced effect may be inaudible, it *is* measurable and magnitudes
higher than effects created by bi-wiring, golden interconnects etc.
- Death by clipping: note that with normal audio content, lower
frequencies will clip first, effectively drowning (saturating) the
higher freq content (if the voltage excursion hits the power supply
rail, smaller waveforms are not there anymore). Spectrally observed,
the high freq content does *not* get higher when clipping occurs,
mostly lower.
What kills the system is higher *average* power (clipping is the
ultimate dynamic compression), not the clipping event itself. A
bigger non-clipping amp with the same gain setting would kill the
speaker faster.
--
- René
Without commenting about failure mode or speaker quality, I would like
to bring the following into consideration:
- Does an audiophile really want to place a non-linear current
dependent resistor in series with the speaker system (fuse), though
the induced effect may be inaudible, it *is* measurable and magnitudes
higher than effects created by bi-wiring, golden interconnects etc.
- Death by clipping: note that with normal audio content, lower
frequencies will clip first, effectively drowning (saturating) the
higher freq content (if the voltage excursion hits the power supply
rail, smaller waveforms are not there anymore). Spectrally observed,
the high freq content does *not* get higher when clipping occurs,
mostly lower.
What kills the system is higher *average* power (clipping is the
ultimate dynamic compression), not the clipping event itself. A
bigger non-clipping amp with the same gain setting would kill the
speaker faster.
--
- René
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 02:24:54 +0000, Ren wrote:
> Without commenting about failure mode or speaker quality, I would like
> to bring the following into consideration:
>
> - Does an audiophile really want to place a non-linear current dependent
> resistor in series with the speaker system (fuse), though the induced
> effect may be inaudible, it *is* measurable and magnitudes higher than
> effects created by bi-wiring, golden interconnects etc.
>
> - Death by clipping: note that with normal audio content, lower
> frequencies will clip first,
Do yo mean lower frequencies will cause the amplifier
to clip more then higher frequencies? That is true.
> effectively drowning (saturating) the
> higher freq content (if the voltage excursion hits the power supply
> rail, smaller waveforms are not there anymore). Spectrally observed, the
> high freq content does *not* get higher when clipping occurs, mostly
> lower.
Not sure at all, maybe if the power supply is too small for
the amplifier. When the amplifier clips, it produces lots of
high frequency products, which go through the passive filter
and are lead to the tweeter. I think it is well known
that one can burn a tweeter by putting the ( low )loudness
on and turn the bass up. ( and causing the amplifier to clip ).
Edmund
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 02:24:54 +0000, Ren wrote:
> Without commenting about failure mode or speaker quality, I would like
> to bring the following into consideration:
>
> - Does an audiophile really want to place a non-linear current dependent
> resistor in series with the speaker system (fuse), though the induced
> effect may be inaudible, it *is* measurable and magnitudes higher than
> effects created by bi-wiring, golden interconnects etc.
>
> - Death by clipping: note that with normal audio content, lower
> frequencies will clip first,
Do yo mean lower frequencies will cause the amplifier
to clip more then higher frequencies? That is true.
> effectively drowning (saturating) the
> higher freq content (if the voltage excursion hits the power supply
> rail, smaller waveforms are not there anymore). Spectrally observed, the
> high freq content does *not* get higher when clipping occurs, mostly
> lower.
Not sure at all, maybe if the power supply is too small for
the amplifier. When the amplifier clips, it produces lots of
high frequency products, which go through the passive filter
and are lead to the tweeter. I think it is well known
that one can burn a tweeter by putting the ( low )loudness
on and turn the bass up. ( and causing the amplifier to clip ).
Edmund
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On 17 Apr 2008 23:58:04 GMT, Edmund <nomail@hotmail . com > wrote:
>Not sure at all, maybe if the power supply is too small for
>the amplifier. When the amplifier clips, it produces lots of
>high frequency products, which go through the passive filter
>and are lead to the tweeter. I think it is well known
>that one can burn a tweeter by putting the ( low )loudness
>on and turn the bass up. ( and causing the amplifier to clip ).
I just ventured to explain the clipping event itself does not distroy
speakers / tweeters or xovers. There is another mechanism at work.
The "small amplifiers fry speakers due to clipping" sort of grew into
sort of an urban legend; it may be useful to understand the full
mechanism.
I found the following study useful:
* w w w .audiovisualdevices . com .au/downloads/rane/note128.pdf
--
- René
On 17 Apr 2008 23:58:04 GMT, Edmund <nomail@hotmail . com > wrote:
>Not sure at all, maybe if the power supply is too small for
>the amplifier. When the amplifier clips, it produces lots of
>high frequency products, which go through the passive filter
>and are lead to the tweeter. I think it is well known
>that one can burn a tweeter by putting the ( low )loudness
>on and turn the bass up. ( and causing the amplifier to clip ).
I just ventured to explain the clipping event itself does not distroy
speakers / tweeters or xovers. There is another mechanism at work.
The "small amplifiers fry speakers due to clipping" sort of grew into
sort of an urban legend; it may be useful to understand the full
mechanism.
I found the following study useful:
* w w w .audiovisualdevices . com .au/downloads/rane/note128.pdf
--
- René
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:37:56 +0000, Ren wrote:
> On 17 Apr 2008 23:58:04 GMT, Edmund <nomail@hotmail . com > wrote:
>
>
> I just ventured to explain the clipping event itself does not distroy
> speakers / tweeters or xovers. There is another mechanism at work.
>
> The "small amplifiers fry speakers due to clipping" sort of grew into
> sort of an urban legend; it may be useful to understand the full
> mechanism.
>
> I found the following study useful:
>
> * w w w .audiovisualdevices . com .au/downloads/rane/note128.pdf
Thank you I will read this..
Edmund
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:37:56 +0000, Ren wrote:
> On 17 Apr 2008 23:58:04 GMT, Edmund <nomail@hotmail . com > wrote:
>
>
> I just ventured to explain the clipping event itself does not distroy
> speakers / tweeters or xovers. There is another mechanism at work.
>
> The "small amplifiers fry speakers due to clipping" sort of grew into
> sort of an urban legend; it may be useful to understand the full
> mechanism.
>
> I found the following study useful:
>
> * w w w .audiovisualdevices . com .au/downloads/rane/note128.pdf
Thank you I will read this..
Edmund
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:37:56 +0000, Ren wrote:
> On 17 Apr 2008 23:58:04 GMT, Edmund <nomail@hotmail . com > wrote:
>
>>Not sure at all, maybe if the power supply is too small for the
>>amplifier. When the amplifier clips, it produces lots of high frequency
>>products, which go through the passive filter and are lead to the
>>tweeter. I think it is well known that one can burn a tweeter by putting
>>the ( low )loudness on and turn the bass up. ( and causing the amplifier
>>to clip ).
>
> I just ventured to explain the clipping event itself does not distroy
> speakers / tweeters or xovers. There is another mechanism at work.
>
> The "small amplifiers fry speakers due to clipping" sort of grew into
> sort of an urban legend; it may be useful to understand the full
> mechanism.
>
> I found the following study useful:
>
> * w w w .audiovisualdevices . com .au/downloads/rane/note128.pdf
I don't think this is the whole true either.
It is more an advertising story from a manufacturer.
I experienced a blown out tweeter first hand in
a time there wasn't anything like this compression.
One other thing they don't mention is that the distortion
products aren't the only signals that go to the tweeter.
If a amplifier is clipping it is very likely the tweeter is
also performing, over, at or near it's max output, the distortion
products are added to this.
Edmund
On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:37:56 +0000, Ren wrote:
> On 17 Apr 2008 23:58:04 GMT, Edmund <nomail@hotmail . com > wrote:
>
>>Not sure at all, maybe if the power supply is too small for the
>>amplifier. When the amplifier clips, it produces lots of high frequency
>>products, which go through the passive filter and are lead to the
>>tweeter. I think it is well known that one can burn a tweeter by putting
>>the ( low )loudness on and turn the bass up. ( and causing the amplifier
>>to clip ).
>
> I just ventured to explain the clipping event itself does not distroy
> speakers / tweeters or xovers. There is another mechanism at work.
>
> The "small amplifiers fry speakers due to clipping" sort of grew into
> sort of an urban legend; it may be useful to understand the full
> mechanism.
>
> I found the following study useful:
>
> * w w w .audiovisualdevices . com .au/downloads/rane/note128.pdf
I don't think this is the whole true either.
It is more an advertising story from a manufacturer.
I experienced a blown out tweeter first hand in
a time there wasn't anything like this compression.
One other thing they don't mention is that the distortion
products aren't the only signals that go to the tweeter.
If a amplifier is clipping it is very likely the tweeter is
also performing, over, at or near it's max output, the distortion
products are added to this.
Edmund
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
.........
Good points. Thanks, Mr, Krueger. You may be right. My Tower IIs have
fried their xovers twice in about 4 months. Maybe that' their main
weakness. I also have the Ensemble II speakers, very inefficient at 85
db/watt. My Yamaha AX596 can't drive them hard enough and they have
never ever failed. The Behringer amp you suggested could probably
drive them quite decently, but I needed more than those Ensembles
could give. They had no depth and the system only went down to 40 Hz.
The tower IIs, at 90 or 91 db/watt, are much more efficient and go
deeper, down to 30 Hz compared to the Ensembles 40 Hz. Oh, and the
tower IIs have a significnant depth to them as well. Quite seductive,
especially after moving up from the Ensembles. But the xovers keep
failing.
Hmmm, decisions decisions.
How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components
with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just
wondering.
CD
On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
.........
Good points. Thanks, Mr, Krueger. You may be right. My Tower IIs have
fried their xovers twice in about 4 months. Maybe that' their main
weakness. I also have the Ensemble II speakers, very inefficient at 85
db/watt. My Yamaha AX596 can't drive them hard enough and they have
never ever failed. The Behringer amp you suggested could probably
drive them quite decently, but I needed more than those Ensembles
could give. They had no depth and the system only went down to 40 Hz.
The tower IIs, at 90 or 91 db/watt, are much more efficient and go
deeper, down to 30 Hz compared to the Ensembles 40 Hz. Oh, and the
tower IIs have a significnant depth to them as well. Quite seductive,
especially after moving up from the Ensembles. But the xovers keep
failing.
Hmmm, decisions decisions.
How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components
with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just
wondering.
CD
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
"codifus" <codifus@optonline . net > wrote in message
news:fu3bqu02ums@news5.newsguy . com ...
> On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
> .........
>
>
> How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components
> with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just
> wondering.
>
Technically, not difficult at all if you haven't heat-damaged a PCB
significantly.
But... are the speakers worth it? You'll probably spend $50-$100 on parts
after you get them all shipped to you if you opt for some high-quality caps
and chokes. Then you might have issues with fit if the parts are mounted on
a circuit board. You could probably sell the speakers and invest the same
$$ into a used pair of <much better> speakers which retail for more than
$500 new.
Dave
"codifus" <codifus@optonline . net > wrote in message
news:fu3bqu02ums@news5.newsguy . com ...
> On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
> .........
>
>
> How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components
> with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just
> wondering.
>
Technically, not difficult at all if you haven't heat-damaged a PCB
significantly.
But... are the speakers worth it? You'll probably spend $50-$100 on parts
after you get them all shipped to you if you opt for some high-quality caps
and chokes. Then you might have issues with fit if the parts are mounted on
a circuit board. You could probably sell the speakers and invest the same
$$ into a used pair of <much better> speakers which retail for more than
$500 new.
Dave
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 16, 10:25 pm, "Dave" <dspear9...@yahoo . com > wrote:
> "codifus" <codi...@optonline . net > wrote in message
>
> news:fu3bqu02ums@news5.newsguy . com ...> On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
> > .........
>
> > How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components
> > with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just
> > wondering.
>
> Technically, not difficult at all if you haven't heat-damaged a PCB
> significantly.
>
> But... are the speakers worth it? You'll probably spend $50-$100 on parts
> after you get them all shipped to you if you opt for some high-quality caps
> and chokes. Then you might have issues with fit if the parts are mounted on
> a circuit board. You could probably sell the speakers and invest the same
> $$ into a used pair of <much better> speakers which retail for more than
> $500 new.
>
> Dave
True. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the Tower IIs just
can't handle extended listening at high power anymore. I've had them
for about 4 years, and it was only in the last year, after adding the
0404USB to my system that the Tower IIs have been dying. That 0404USB
made me enjoy music so much more that my listening time went up
significantly, and the weakest link in my system therefore failed.
I guess I have to buy bigger speakers. Those Infinity Beta 50s, look
nice, but I feel I may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire
because they seem to have similar power handling capabilities to the
Tower IIs. Something tells me that I'll be cooking something on those
as well.
Funny how my increased enjoyment of my stereo has caused me to fry my
speakers:)
CD
On Apr 16, 10:25 pm, "Dave" <dspear9...@yahoo . com > wrote:
> "codifus" <codi...@optonline . net > wrote in message
>
> news:fu3bqu02ums@news5.newsguy . com ...> On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
> > .........
>
> > How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components
> > with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just
> > wondering.
>
> Technically, not difficult at all if you haven't heat-damaged a PCB
> significantly.
>
> But... are the speakers worth it? You'll probably spend $50-$100 on parts
> after you get them all shipped to you if you opt for some high-quality caps
> and chokes. Then you might have issues with fit if the parts are mounted on
> a circuit board. You could probably sell the speakers and invest the same
> $$ into a used pair of <much better> speakers which retail for more than
> $500 new.
>
> Dave
True. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the Tower IIs just
can't handle extended listening at high power anymore. I've had them
for about 4 years, and it was only in the last year, after adding the
0404USB to my system that the Tower IIs have been dying. That 0404USB
made me enjoy music so much more that my listening time went up
significantly, and the weakest link in my system therefore failed.
I guess I have to buy bigger speakers. Those Infinity Beta 50s, look
nice, but I feel I may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire
because they seem to have similar power handling capabilities to the
Tower IIs. Something tells me that I'll be cooking something on those
as well.
Funny how my increased enjoyment of my stereo has caused me to fry my
speakers:)
CD
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:46:18 -0700, codifus wrote
(in article <fu8nga02b7t@news4.newsguy . com >):
> On Apr 16, 10:25 pm, "Dave" <dspear9...@yahoo . com > wrote:
>> "codifus" <codi...@optonline . net > wrote in message
>>
>> news:fu3bqu02ums@news5.newsguy . com ...> On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger"
>> <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
>>> .........
>>
>>> How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components
>>> with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just
>>> wondering.
>>
>> Technically, not difficult at all if you haven't heat-damaged a PCB
>> significantly.
>>
>> But... are the speakers worth it? You'll probably spend $50-$100 on parts
>> after you get them all shipped to you if you opt for some high-quality caps
>> and chokes. Then you might have issues with fit if the parts are mounted on
>> a circuit board. You could probably sell the speakers and invest the same
>> $$ into a used pair of <much better> speakers which retail for more than
>> $500 new.
>>
>> Dave
>
> True. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the Tower IIs just
> can't handle extended listening at high power anymore. I've had them
> for about 4 years, and it was only in the last year, after adding the
> 0404USB to my system that the Tower IIs have been dying. That 0404USB
> made me enjoy music so much more that my listening time went up
> significantly, and the weakest link in my system therefore failed.
>
> I guess I have to buy bigger speakers. Those Infinity Beta 50s, look
> nice, but I feel I may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire
> because they seem to have similar power handling capabilities to the
> Tower IIs. Something tells me that I'll be cooking something on those
> as well.
>
> Funny how my increased enjoyment of my stereo has caused me to fry my
> speakers:)
>
> CD
Do you listen at extremely high sound pressure levels? It seems that you do.
If so you need to look into types of speakers that are either very efficient
such as horns or speakers designed to handle big watts like those for sound
reinforcement. Both of these produce very high average levels without damage.
The horns because they turn more of the electrical energy from the amplifiers
into sound, and the reinforcement speakers because they are designed to play
loud using lots of power and to withstand the heat produced when that power
is translated into acoustical energy. Like any machine, speakers turn wasted
energy into heat and if the speakers aren't designed to handle that kind of
duty, damage can result.
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:46:18 -0700, codifus wrote
(in article <fu8nga02b7t@news4.newsguy . com >):
> On Apr 16, 10:25 pm, "Dave" <dspear9...@yahoo . com > wrote:
>> "codifus" <codi...@optonline . net > wrote in message
>>
>> news:fu3bqu02ums@news5.newsguy . com ...> On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger"
>> <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
>>> .........
>>
>>> How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components
>>> with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just
>>> wondering.
>>
>> Technically, not difficult at all if you haven't heat-damaged a PCB
>> significantly.
>>
>> But... are the speakers worth it? You'll probably spend $50-$100 on parts
>> after you get them all shipped to you if you opt for some high-quality caps
>> and chokes. Then you might have issues with fit if the parts are mounted on
>> a circuit board. You could probably sell the speakers and invest the same
>> $$ into a used pair of <much better> speakers which retail for more than
>> $500 new.
>>
>> Dave
>
> True. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the Tower IIs just
> can't handle extended listening at high power anymore. I've had them
> for about 4 years, and it was only in the last year, after adding the
> 0404USB to my system that the Tower IIs have been dying. That 0404USB
> made me enjoy music so much more that my listening time went up
> significantly, and the weakest link in my system therefore failed.
>
> I guess I have to buy bigger speakers. Those Infinity Beta 50s, look
> nice, but I feel I may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire
> because they seem to have similar power handling capabilities to the
> Tower IIs. Something tells me that I'll be cooking something on those
> as well.
>
> Funny how my increased enjoyment of my stereo has caused me to fry my
> speakers:)
>
> CD
Do you listen at extremely high sound pressure levels? It seems that you do.
If so you need to look into types of speakers that are either very efficient
such as horns or speakers designed to handle big watts like those for sound
reinforcement. Both of these produce very high average levels without damage.
The horns because they turn more of the electrical energy from the amplifiers
into sound, and the reinforcement speakers because they are designed to play
loud using lots of power and to withstand the heat produced when that power
is translated into acoustical energy. Like any machine, speakers turn wasted
energy into heat and if the speakers aren't designed to handle that kind of
duty, damage can result.
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 18, 5:32 pm, Sonnova <sonn...@audiosanatorium . com > wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:46:18 -0700, codifus wrote
> (in article <fu8nga02...@news4.newsguy . com >):
>
>
>
> > On Apr 16, 10:25 pm, "Dave" <dspear9...@yahoo . com > wrote:
> >> "codifus" <codi...@optonline . net > wrote in message
>
> >>news:fu3bqu02ums@news5.newsguy . com ...> On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger"
> >> <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
> >>> .........
>
> >>> How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components
> >>> with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just
> >>> wondering.
>
> >> Technically, not difficult at all if you haven't heat-damaged a PCB
> >> significantly.
>
> >> But... are the speakers worth it? You'll probably spend $50-$100 on parts
> >> after you get them all shipped to you if you opt for some high-quality caps
> >> and chokes. Then you might have issues with fit if the parts are mounted on
> >> a circuit board. You could probably sell the speakers and invest the same
> >> $$ into a used pair of <much better> speakers which retail for more than
> >> $500 new.
>
> >> Dave
>
> > True. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the Tower IIs just
> > can't handle extended listening at high power anymore. I've had them
> > for about 4 years, and it was only in the last year, after adding the
> > 0404USB to my system that the Tower IIs have been dying. That 0404USB
> > made me enjoy music so much more that my listening time went up
> > significantly, and the weakest link in my system therefore failed.
>
> > I guess I have to buy bigger speakers. Those Infinity Beta 50s, look
> > nice, but I feel I may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire
> > because they seem to have similar power handling capabilities to the
> > Tower IIs. Something tells me that I'll be cooking something on those
> > as well.
>
> > Funny how my increased enjoyment of my stereo has caused me to fry my
> > speakers:)
>
> > CD
>
> Do you listen at extremely high sound pressure levels? It seems that you do.
> If so you need to look into types of speakers that are either very efficient
> such as horns or speakers designed to handle big watts like those for sound
> reinforcement. Both of these produce very high average levels without damage.
> The horns because they turn more of the electrical energy from the amplifiers
> into sound, and the reinforcement speakers because they are designed to play
> loud using lots of power and to withstand the heat produced when that power
> is translated into acoustical energy. Like any machine, speakers turn wasted
> energy into heat and if the speakers aren't designed to handle that kind of
> duty, damage can result.
I've read some reviews of horns and some have said that they sound
bright. I like to turn it up, but I also like the bass to keep up as
well.
CD
On Apr 18, 5:32 pm, Sonnova <sonn...@audiosanatorium . com > wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:46:18 -0700, codifus wrote
> (in article <fu8nga02...@news4.newsguy . com >):
>
>
>
> > On Apr 16, 10:25 pm, "Dave" <dspear9...@yahoo . com > wrote:
> >> "codifus" <codi...@optonline . net > wrote in message
>
> >>news:fu3bqu02ums@news5.newsguy . com ...> On Apr 14, 9:55 pm, "Arny Krueger"
> >> <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
> >>> .........
>
> >>> How hard would it be to take the Xover out and replace the components
> >>> with higher grade stuff? I'm a novice when it comes this. Just
> >>> wondering.
>
> >> Technically, not difficult at all if you haven't heat-damaged a PCB
> >> significantly.
>
> >> But... are the speakers worth it? You'll probably spend $50-$100 on parts
> >> after you get them all shipped to you if you opt for some high-quality caps
> >> and chokes. Then you might have issues with fit if the parts are mounted on
> >> a circuit board. You could probably sell the speakers and invest the same
> >> $$ into a used pair of <much better> speakers which retail for more than
> >> $500 new.
>
> >> Dave
>
> > True. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the Tower IIs just
> > can't handle extended listening at high power anymore. I've had them
> > for about 4 years, and it was only in the last year, after adding the
> > 0404USB to my system that the Tower IIs have been dying. That 0404USB
> > made me enjoy music so much more that my listening time went up
> > significantly, and the weakest link in my system therefore failed.
>
> > I guess I have to buy bigger speakers. Those Infinity Beta 50s, look
> > nice, but I feel I may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire
> > because they seem to have similar power handling capabilities to the
> > Tower IIs. Something tells me that I'll be cooking something on those
> > as well.
>
> > Funny how my increased enjoyment of my stereo has caused me to fry my
> > speakers:)
>
> > CD
>
> Do you listen at extremely high sound pressure levels? It seems that you do.
> If so you need to look into types of speakers that are either very efficient
> such as horns or speakers designed to handle big watts like those for sound
> reinforcement. Both of these produce very high average levels without damage.
> The horns because they turn more of the electrical energy from the amplifiers
> into sound, and the reinforcement speakers because they are designed to play
> loud using lots of power and to withstand the heat produced when that power
> is translated into acoustical energy. Like any machine, speakers turn wasted
> energy into heat and if the speakers aren't designed to handle that kind of
> duty, damage can result.
I've read some reviews of horns and some have said that they sound
bright. I like to turn it up, but I also like the bass to keep up as
well.
CD
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
Arny Krueger wrote:
>.....
> The most common source of loudspeaker failure is as you seem to be
> suggesting, simple excessive power causing things to heat up and fry. Often
> all a more powerful amp accomplishes is to speed the process because it
> takes a lot of power to have an amplifier that sounds significantly louder
> than 100 wpc.
>
> Looking forward, I see a need for speakers that can handle a lot of power
> for a long time and keep ticking.
>
Well, when I purchased the Yamaha AX596, it repalced an Onkyo integra
rated at 80 watts/channel. That small difference of 20 watts really made
a difference in my setup.
I do miss that Onkyo, though. It was less powerful, but cleaner. At full
steam the Yamaha sounds a bit more harsh than the Onkyo ever did. But
then, the Onkyo had an overzealous self protection circuit. Once it was
what seems like slightly overdriven, that Integra would simply click
off. The Yamaha I can drive to absurdly loud levels and it never turns
off. Only does an insane overload on the Yamaha force its protecttion
circuit to kick in, like a badly corrupted wav file on my computer or
something.
Here's another thing I wonder: the Yamaha has an impedance matching
switch on the back. Switch it to the left when attaching speakers with 4
ohms of impedance. switch to the right for 6 ohms. My Tower IIs are
nominally rated at 6 ohms so I left the Yamaha's switch at the 6 ohm
setting.
Does bi-wiring change the impedance presented to the amplifier in a
considerable manner? Once I setup the Tower IIs in a bi-wire setup,
should I have flipped the impedance switch to the 4 ohm setting? None of
the manuals tell me much in that regard, just how things should be
hooked up.
Thanks
CD
Arny Krueger wrote:
>.....
> The most common source of loudspeaker failure is as you seem to be
> suggesting, simple excessive power causing things to heat up and fry. Often
> all a more powerful amp accomplishes is to speed the process because it
> takes a lot of power to have an amplifier that sounds significantly louder
> than 100 wpc.
>
> Looking forward, I see a need for speakers that can handle a lot of power
> for a long time and keep ticking.
>
Well, when I purchased the Yamaha AX596, it repalced an Onkyo integra
rated at 80 watts/channel. That small difference of 20 watts really made
a difference in my setup.
I do miss that Onkyo, though. It was less powerful, but cleaner. At full
steam the Yamaha sounds a bit more harsh than the Onkyo ever did. But
then, the Onkyo had an overzealous self protection circuit. Once it was
what seems like slightly overdriven, that Integra would simply click
off. The Yamaha I can drive to absurdly loud levels and it never turns
off. Only does an insane overload on the Yamaha force its protecttion
circuit to kick in, like a badly corrupted wav file on my computer or
something.
Here's another thing I wonder: the Yamaha has an impedance matching
switch on the back. Switch it to the left when attaching speakers with 4
ohms of impedance. switch to the right for 6 ohms. My Tower IIs are
nominally rated at 6 ohms so I left the Yamaha's switch at the 6 ohm
setting.
Does bi-wiring change the impedance presented to the amplifier in a
considerable manner? Once I setup the Tower IIs in a bi-wire setup,
should I have flipped the impedance switch to the 4 ohm setting? None of
the manuals tell me much in that regard, just how things should be
hooked up.
Thanks
CD
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