Bi-amp Audio Research and Bryston 4B

Bi-amp Audio Research and Bryston 4B

I have a question with the above subject concerning bi-amping with a
Sonic Frontiers Line One tube preamp. Both amps will be accompanying
Martin Logan Sequel 2 speakers, all at 8 ohms. I will use the Bryston
for the woofers and the A.R.C. for the panels. The D115 has level
controls, but I am unsure if it will be adjustable enough to blend
equal output for both amps sonically. The Bryston is hooked up with a
balanced output from the preamp and the D 115 is single ended. I
realize if I have too much base that I can use single ended to my B4
to lower by 6db. and maybe equalize better on the base/panel Martin
Logans. Barring purchasing an outboard adjustable crossover (Bryston's
is around $1300.00) - any other suggestions from the group here
please?

Regards,
Tony.

Re: Bi-amp Audio Research and Bryston 4B

Tony Pike <tonypike@telus . net > wrote:

> Barring purchasing an outboard adjustable crossover (Bryston's
> is around $1300.00) - any other suggestions from the group here
> please?

Maybe - don't mix different amplifiers on the same speaker. It just
sounds gross. If you don't like the Bryston, get a different amp. In
general - bi-amping without active crossover never sounds better than
one better single amp.

With active crossover, you might (!) get about the same sound qualitiy
with more power headroom, but overall, speaker manufacturers know what
they're doing, so it's very doubtful, you can match the quality with
mixing equipment and hooking up the stuff without measuring equipment.

cug

--
* w w w .event-s . net

Re: Bi-amp Audio Research and Bryston 4B

"Guido Neitzer" <guido.neitzer@web.de> wrote in message
news:fudnru02948@news5.newsguy . com ...
> Tony Pike <tonypike@telus . net > wrote:
>
>> Barring purchasing an outboard adjustable crossover (Bryston's
>> is around $1300.00) - any other suggestions from the group here
>> please?
>
> Maybe - don't mix different amplifiers on the same speaker. It just
> sounds gross. If you don't like the Bryston, get a different amp. In
> general - bi-amping without active crossover never sounds better than
> one better single amp.
>
> With active crossover, you might (!) get about the same sound qualitiy
> with more power headroom, but overall, speaker manufacturers know what
> they're doing, so it's very doubtful, you can match the quality with
> mixing equipment and hooking up the stuff without measuring equipment.
>
> cug
>
> --
> * w w w .event-s . net

Very good advice.

S.

--
* audiopages.googlepages . com

Re: Bi-amp Audio Research and Bryston 4B

My original post:

I have a question with the above subject concerning bi-amping with a
Sonic Frontiers Line One tube preamp. Both amps will be accompanying
Martin Logan Sequel 2 speakers, all at 8 ohms. I will use the Bryston
for the woofers and the A.R.C. for the panels. The D115 has level
controls, but I am unsure if it will be adjustable enough to blend
equal output for both amps sonically. The Bryston is hooked up with a
balanced output from the preamp and the D 115 is single ended. I
realize if I have too much base that I can use single ended to my B4
to lower by 6db. and maybe equalize better on the base/panel Martin
Logans. Barring purchasing an outboard adjustable crossover (Bryston's
is around $1300.00) - any other suggestions from the group here
please?

"Guido Neitzer" <guido.neitzer@web.de> wrote in message
news:fudnru02948@news5.newsguy . com ...
>
> Maybe - don't mix different amplifiers on the same speaker. It just
> sounds gross. If you don't like the Bryston, get a different amp. In
> general - bi-amping without active crossover never sounds better than
> one better single amp.
>
> With active crossover, you might (!) get about the same sound qualitiy
> with more power headroom, but overall, speaker manufacturers know what
> they're doing, so it's very doubtful, you can match the quality with
> mixing equipment and hooking up the stuff without measuring equipment.
>
> cug

I love both amps, if any in the group are familiar with them. The Audio
Research D115 mk.2 has the absolute clearest midrange and treble my ears
identify, but lacks bass, like almost all tube amps. The Bryston is amazing
in all aspects, and being transistor output has solid clear bass to make the
difference. I understand Guido that Martin Logan and other high end speakers
know what they're doing or would not be near the top of the heap, but like
many other speaker manufactures, offer 2 inputs each channel. It is not just
for bi-wiring, but for bi-amping which comes back to my original question to
the group.
Regards,
Tony.

Re: Bi-amp Audio Research and Bryston 4B

"Tony Pike" <tonypike@telus . net > wrote in message
news:fufk2301avn@news4.newsguy . com ...
> My original post:
>
> I have a question with the above subject concerning bi-amping with a
> Sonic Frontiers Line One tube preamp. Both amps will be accompanying
> Martin Logan Sequel 2 speakers, all at 8 ohms. I will use the Bryston
> for the woofers and the A.R.C. for the panels. The D115 has level
> controls, but I am unsure if it will be adjustable enough to blend
> equal output for both amps sonically. The Bryston is hooked up with a
> balanced output from the preamp and the D 115 is single ended. I
> realize if I have too much base that I can use single ended to my B4
> to lower by 6db. and maybe equalize better on the base/panel Martin
> Logans. Barring purchasing an outboard adjustable crossover (Bryston's
> is around $1300.00) - any other suggestions from the group here
> please?
>
> "Guido Neitzer" <guido.neitzer@web.de> wrote in message
> news:fudnru02948@news5.newsguy . com ...
>>
>> Maybe - don't mix different amplifiers on the same speaker. It just
>> sounds gross. If you don't like the Bryston, get a different amp. In
>> general - bi-amping without active crossover never sounds better than
>> one better single amp.
>>
>> With active crossover, you might (!) get about the same sound qualitiy
>> with more power headroom, but overall, speaker manufacturers know what
>> they're doing, so it's very doubtful, you can match the quality with
>> mixing equipment and hooking up the stuff without measuring equipment.
>>
>> cug
>
> I love both amps, if any in the group are familiar with them. The Audio
> Research D115 mk.2 has the absolute clearest midrange and treble my ears
> identify, but lacks bass, like almost all tube amps. The Bryston is
> amazing
> in all aspects, and being transistor output has solid clear bass to make
> the
> difference. I understand Guido that Martin Logan and other high end
> speakers
> know what they're doing or would not be near the top of the heap, but like
> many other speaker manufactures, offer 2 inputs each channel. It is not
> just
> for bi-wiring, but for bi-amping which comes back to my original question
> to
> the group.
> Regards,
> Tony.
>

Bi-amping without using electronic crossovers is pointless. As Guido said
above, there's no point in it, and the results will almost always be worse,
never better. If you want to play around with the treble/bass balance of
your 'speakers, then fine, enjoy yourself by all means, but don't expect the
results to be better than what Martin Logan originally supplied. My advice
is to use the Bryston amp as this is one of the better engineered units, and
keep the ARC for nostalgia, or indeed, sell it and use the money more
effectively.

S.

--
* audiopages.googlepages . com

Re: Bi-amp Audio Research and Bryston 4B

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:22:04 -0700, Serge Auckland wrote
(in article <fufu3s02b6h@news2.newsguy . com >):

> "Tony Pike" <tonypike@telus . net > wrote in message
> news:fufk2301avn@news4.newsguy . com ...
>> My original post:
>>
>> I have a question with the above subject concerning bi-amping with a
>> Sonic Frontiers Line One tube preamp. Both amps will be accompanying
>> Martin Logan Sequel 2 speakers, all at 8 ohms. I will use the Bryston
>> for the woofers and the A.R.C. for the panels. The D115 has level
>> controls, but I am unsure if it will be adjustable enough to blend
>> equal output for both amps sonically. The Bryston is hooked up with a
>> balanced output from the preamp and the D 115 is single ended. I
>> realize if I have too much base that I can use single ended to my B4
>> to lower by 6db. and maybe equalize better on the base/panel Martin
>> Logans. Barring purchasing an outboard adjustable crossover (Bryston's
>> is around $1300.00) - any other suggestions from the group here
>> please?
>>
>> "Guido Neitzer" <guido.neitzer@web.de> wrote in message
>> news:fudnru02948@news5.newsguy . com ...
>>>
>>> Maybe - don't mix different amplifiers on the same speaker. It just
>>> sounds gross. If you don't like the Bryston, get a different amp. In
>>> general - bi-amping without active crossover never sounds better than
>>> one better single amp.
>>>
>>> With active crossover, you might (!) get about the same sound qualitiy
>>> with more power headroom, but overall, speaker manufacturers know what
>>> they're doing, so it's very doubtful, you can match the quality with
>>> mixing equipment and hooking up the stuff without measuring equipment.
>>>
>>> cug
>>
>> I love both amps, if any in the group are familiar with them. The Audio
>> Research D115 mk.2 has the absolute clearest midrange and treble my ears
>> identify, but lacks bass, like almost all tube amps. The Bryston is
>> amazing
>> in all aspects, and being transistor output has solid clear bass to make
>> the
>> difference. I understand Guido that Martin Logan and other high end
>> speakers
>> know what they're doing or would not be near the top of the heap, but like
>> many other speaker manufactures, offer 2 inputs each channel. It is not
>> just
>> for bi-wiring, but for bi-amping which comes back to my original question
>> to
>> the group.
>> Regards,
>> Tony.
>>
>
> Bi-amping without using electronic crossovers is pointless. As Guido said
> above, there's no point in it, and the results will almost always be worse,
> never better. If you want to play around with the treble/bass balance of
> your 'speakers, then fine, enjoy yourself by all means, but don't expect the
> results to be better than what Martin Logan originally supplied. My advice
> is to use the Bryston amp as this is one of the better engineered units, and
> keep the ARC for nostalgia, or indeed, sell it and use the money more
> effectively.
>
> S.
>
>

But it's cheap enough to fool around with an active crossover. The Behringer
Pro-X active 2-way stereo crossover is only $90 at Zzounds:

* w w w .zzounds . com /item--BEHCX2310

If its as good as the rest of the stuff that Behringer makes, it' will be a
fine unit, indeed.

Re: Bi-amp Audio Research and Bryston 4B

"Sonnova" <sonnova@audiosanatorium . com > wrote in message
news:fugf5606am@news2.newsguy . com ...
> On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:22:04 -0700, Serge Auckland wrote
> (in article <fufu3s02b6h@news2.newsguy . com >):
>
>> "Tony Pike" <tonypike@telus . net > wrote in message
>> news:fufk2301avn@news4.newsguy . com ...
>>> My original post:
>>>
>>> I have a question with the above subject concerning bi-amping with a
>>> Sonic Frontiers Line One tube preamp. Both amps will be accompanying
>>> Martin Logan Sequel 2 speakers, all at 8 ohms. I will use the Bryston
>>> for the woofers and the A.R.C. for the panels. The D115 has level
>>> controls, but I am unsure if it will be adjustable enough to blend
>>> equal output for both amps sonically. The Bryston is hooked up with a
>>> balanced output from the preamp and the D 115 is single ended. I
>>> realize if I have too much base that I can use single ended to my B4
>>> to lower by 6db. and maybe equalize better on the base/panel Martin
>>> Logans. Barring purchasing an outboard adjustable crossover (Bryston's
>>> is around $1300.00) - any other suggestions from the group here
>>> please?
>>>
>>> "Guido Neitzer" <guido.neitzer@web.de> wrote in message
>>> news:fudnru02948@news5.newsguy . com ...
>>>>
>>>> Maybe - don't mix different amplifiers on the same speaker. It just
>>>> sounds gross. If you don't like the Bryston, get a different amp. In
>>>> general - bi-amping without active crossover never sounds better than
>>>> one better single amp.
>>>>
>>>> With active crossover, you might (!) get about the same sound qualitiy
>>>> with more power headroom, but overall, speaker manufacturers know what
>>>> they're doing, so it's very doubtful, you can match the quality with
>>>> mixing equipment and hooking up the stuff without measuring equipment.
>>>>
>>>> cug
>>>
>>> I love both amps, if any in the group are familiar with them. The Audio
>>> Research D115 mk.2 has the absolute clearest midrange and treble my ears
>>> identify, but lacks bass, like almost all tube amps. The Bryston is
>>> amazing
>>> in all aspects, and being transistor output has solid clear bass to make
>>> the
>>> difference. I understand Guido that Martin Logan and other high end
>>> speakers
>>> know what they're doing or would not be near the top of the heap, but
>>> like
>>> many other speaker manufactures, offer 2 inputs each channel. It is not
>>> just
>>> for bi-wiring, but for bi-amping which comes back to my original
>>> question
>>> to
>>> the group.
>>> Regards,
>>> Tony.
>>>
>>
>> Bi-amping without using electronic crossovers is pointless. As Guido said
>> above, there's no point in it, and the results will almost always be
>> worse,
>> never better. If you want to play around with the treble/bass balance of
>> your 'speakers, then fine, enjoy yourself by all means, but don't expect
>> the
>> results to be better than what Martin Logan originally supplied. My
>> advice
>> is to use the Bryston amp as this is one of the better engineered units,
>> and
>> keep the ARC for nostalgia, or indeed, sell it and use the money more
>> effectively.
>>
>> S.
>>
>>
>
> But it's cheap enough to fool around with an active crossover. The
> Behringer
> Pro-X active 2-way stereo crossover is only $90 at Zzounds:
>
> * w w w .zzounds . com /item--BEHCX2310
>
> If its as good as the rest of the stuff that Behringer makes, it' will be
> a
> fine unit, indeed.
>

I agree, that's the way to do it. Nevertheless, I personally wouldn't use a
valve amplifier in this application as the electrostatic panels are a pretty
severe load. Having said that, for $90, it would be a fun thing to do.
Endless playing around with the treble/bass balance, crossover frequencies
and slopes. Much more fun than just listening to boring music.......

S.

--
* audiopages.googlepages . com

Re: Bi-amp Audio Research and Bryston 4B

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:19:55 -0700, Serge Auckland wrote
(in article <fuj3ub024ug@news4.newsguy . com >):

> "Sonnova" <sonnova@audiosanatorium . com > wrote in message
> news:fugf5606am@news2.newsguy . com ...
>> On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:22:04 -0700, Serge Auckland wrote
>> (in article <fufu3s02b6h@news2.newsguy . com >):
>>
>>> "Tony Pike" <tonypike@telus . net > wrote in message
>>> news:fufk2301avn@news4.newsguy . com ...
>>>> My original post:
>>>>
>>>> I have a question with the above subject concerning bi-amping with a
>>>> Sonic Frontiers Line One tube preamp. Both amps will be accompanying
>>>> Martin Logan Sequel 2 speakers, all at 8 ohms. I will use the Bryston
>>>> for the woofers and the A.R.C. for the panels. The D115 has level
>>>> controls, but I am unsure if it will be adjustable enough to blend
>>>> equal output for both amps sonically. The Bryston is hooked up with a
>>>> balanced output from the preamp and the D 115 is single ended. I
>>>> realize if I have too much base that I can use single ended to my B4
>>>> to lower by 6db. and maybe equalize better on the base/panel Martin
>>>> Logans. Barring purchasing an outboard adjustable crossover (Bryston's
>>>> is around $1300.00) - any other suggestions from the group here
>>>> please?
>>>>
>>>> "Guido Neitzer" <guido.neitzer@web.de> wrote in message
>>>> news:fudnru02948@news5.newsguy . com ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe - don't mix different amplifiers on the same speaker. It just
>>>>> sounds gross. If you don't like the Bryston, get a different amp. In
>>>>> general - bi-amping without active crossover never sounds better than
>>>>> one better single amp.
>>>>>
>>>>> With active crossover, you might (!) get about the same sound qualitiy
>>>>> with more power headroom, but overall, speaker manufacturers know what
>>>>> they're doing, so it's very doubtful, you can match the quality with
>>>>> mixing equipment and hooking up the stuff without measuring equipment.
>>>>>
>>>>> cug
>>>>
>>>> I love both amps, if any in the group are familiar with them. The Audio
>>>> Research D115 mk.2 has the absolute clearest midrange and treble my ears
>>>> identify, but lacks bass, like almost all tube amps. The Bryston is
>>>> amazing
>>>> in all aspects, and being transistor output has solid clear bass to make
>>>> the
>>>> difference. I understand Guido that Martin Logan and other high end
>>>> speakers
>>>> know what they're doing or would not be near the top of the heap, but
>>>> like
>>>> many other speaker manufactures, offer 2 inputs each channel. It is not
>>>> just
>>>> for bi-wiring, but for bi-amping which comes back to my original
>>>> question
>>>> to
>>>> the group.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Tony.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bi-amping without using electronic crossovers is pointless. As Guido said
>>> above, there's no point in it, and the results will almost always be
>>> worse,
>>> never better. If you want to play around with the treble/bass balance of
>>> your 'speakers, then fine, enjoy yourself by all means, but don't expect
>>> the
>>> results to be better than what Martin Logan originally supplied. My
>>> advice
>>> is to use the Bryston amp as this is one of the better engineered units,
>>> and
>>> keep the ARC for nostalgia, or indeed, sell it and use the money more
>>> effectively.
>>>
>>> S.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> But it's cheap enough to fool around with an active crossover. The
>> Behringer
>> Pro-X active 2-way stereo crossover is only $90 at Zzounds:
>>
>> * w w w .zzounds . com /item--BEHCX2310
>>
>> If its as good as the rest of the stuff that Behringer makes, it' will be
>> a
>> fine unit, indeed.
>>
>
> I agree, that's the way to do it. Nevertheless, I personally wouldn't use a
> valve amplifier in this application as the electrostatic panels are a pretty
> severe load. Having said that, for $90, it would be a fun thing to do.
> Endless playing around with the treble/bass balance, crossover frequencies
> and slopes. Much more fun than just listening to boring music.......
>
> S.
>
>

I told the OP yesterday that Martin-Logan doesn't recommend tube amps. I
drive a pair of M-Ls, however, with a a pair of VTL monoblocs and they work
and sound fine.

Re: Bi-amp Audio Research and Bryston 4B

Tony Pike <tonypike@telus . net > wrote:

> I love both amps, if any in the group are familiar with them. The Audio
> Research D115 mk.2 has the absolute clearest midrange and treble my ears
> identify, but lacks bass, like almost all tube amps. The Bryston is amazing
> in all aspects, and being transistor output has solid clear bass to make the
> difference. I understand Guido that Martin Logan and other high end speakers
> know what they're doing or would not be near the top of the heap, but like
> many other speaker manufactures, offer 2 inputs each channel. It is not just
> for bi-wiring, but for bi-amping which comes back to my original question to
> the group.

With all respect: I answered your original question. If you want
"better" results, use one amplifier that fits your taste better than the
two you have. Mixing different amplifiers (even from the same company)
without an active crossover is sound-wise about the biggest crap you can
do.

Whatever you'll do with the two amps you have, will always sound
different from one good single amp. It will, with 99.9% certainty, be
not better as what you have. With an active crossover, you might be able
to get to a result that matches your taste closer, but will, overall,
not be "better" when compared to any single amplifier.

Without sophisticated measuring equipment you might be able to get
something that is okay for your personal taste, but will probably be far
away from the original recording on the CD/LP. If that is your
intention, go ahead and have fun.

But actually, the better way would be using the Bryston 4B and adding a
high quality graphical equalizer to get the frequency response you like.
That will give you probably what you want in an easier way.

cug

--
* w w w .event-s . net

Re: Bi-amp Audio Research and Bryston 4B

On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 08:01:51 -0700, Tony Pike wrote
(in article <fud1gv028ec@news1.newsguy . com >):

> I have a question with the above subject concerning bi-amping with a
> Sonic Frontiers Line One tube preamp. Both amps will be accompanying
> Martin Logan Sequel 2 speakers, all at 8 ohms. I will use the Bryston
> for the woofers and the A.R.C. for the panels. The D115 has level
> controls, but I am unsure if it will be adjustable enough to blend
> equal output for both amps sonically. The Bryston is hooked up with a
> balanced output from the preamp and the D 115 is single ended. I
> realize if I have too much base that I can use single ended to my B4
> to lower by 6db. and maybe equalize better on the base/panel Martin
> Logans. Barring purchasing an outboard adjustable crossover (Bryston's
> is around $1300.00) - any other suggestions from the group here
> please?
>
> Regards,
> Tony.
>

You don't say, but I suspect that when you say A.R.C. you mean Audio Research
Corporation and that you are referring to a tube amplifier. While I use My
Martin-Logans with a pair of VTL tube amps, I must tell you that M-L does not
recommend tube amps on the electrostatic panels because at high frequencies
that ES panels' impedance drops below 2 ohms. So you might want to re-think
that scheme. I haven't noticed any problems and it might be fine, but I
thought I would pass along M-L's caveat to you anyway.

Re: Bi-amp Audio Research and Bryston 4B

Thanks Sonnova, I will look at the active crossover you suggested. I have
used the Audio Research tube amp with the M-L by itself, no problems but
like I earlier stated it lacks deep bass. No problems with your panels with
the VTL tube amps?
"Sonnova" <sonnova@audiosanatorium . com > wrote in message
news:fugf4f069g@news2.newsguy . com ...
> On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 08:01:51 -0700, Tony Pike wrote
> (in article <fud1gv028ec@news1.newsguy . com >):
>
>> I have a question with the above subject concerning bi-amping with a
>> Sonic Frontiers Line One tube preamp. Both amps will be accompanying
>> Martin Logan Sequel 2 speakers, all at 8 ohms. I will use the Bryston
>> for the woofers and the A.R.C. for the panels. The D115 has level
>> controls, but I am unsure if it will be adjustable enough to blend
>> equal output for both amps sonically. The Bryston is hooked up with a
>> balanced output from the preamp and the D 115 is single ended. I
>> realize if I have too much base that I can use single ended to my B4
>> to lower by 6db. and maybe equalize better on the base/panel Martin
>> Logans. Barring purchasing an outboard adjustable crossover (Bryston's
>> is around $1300.00) - any other suggestions from the group here
>> please?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tony.
>>
>
> You don't say, but I suspect that when you say A.R.C. you mean Audio
> Research
> Corporation and that you are referring to a tube amplifier. While I use My
> Martin-Logans with a pair of VTL tube amps, I must tell you that M-L does
> not
> recommend tube amps on the electrostatic panels because at high
> frequencies
> that ES panels' impedance drops below 2 ohms. So you might want to
> re-think
> that scheme. I haven't noticed any problems and it might be fine, but I
> thought I would pass along M-L's caveat to you anyway.