Sound quality question

Sound quality question

I have a sound system which I'm very pleased with.
(System Audio Explorer speakers and Musical Fidelity A300 amp and A3
CD-player)

If I were to convert my CDs to some lossless file format and store them on
an (external) hard disk drive and then play them using computer and some
media player to feed my amp, would there be any theoretical or real
difference in sound quality compared to using my CD player.

Answers and/or pointers highly appreciated.

Re: Sound quality question

"Iordani" <somewhere@earth . net > wrote in message
news:fudnus0299f@news5.newsguy . com ...
>I have a sound system which I'm very pleased with.
> (System Audio Explorer speakers and Musical Fidelity A300 amp and A3
> CD-player)
>
> If I were to convert my CDs to some lossless file format and store them on
> an (external) hard disk drive and then play them using computer and some
> media player to feed my amp, would there be any theoretical or real
> difference in sound quality compared to using my CD player.
>
> Answers and/or pointers highly appreciated.

Both theoretically and practically, there should be no difference between a
CD played on a CD player, and the same audio off a hard-disk. This of course
assumes that the sound card in the PC is of decent quality. The audio system
on the motherboard of some PCs is sufficiently poor that it could well sound
worse than the CD player, but if you buy a good card, then there will be no
difference.

S.

--
* audiopages.googlepages . com

Re: Sound quality question

Serge Auckland wrote:

> "Iordani" <somewhere@earth . net > wrote in message
> news:fudnus0299f@news5.newsguy . com ...
>>I have a sound system which I'm very pleased with.
>> (System Audio Explorer speakers and Musical Fidelity A300 amp and A3
>> CD-player)
>>
>> If I were to convert my CDs to some lossless file format and store them
>> on an (external) hard disk drive and then play them using computer and
>> some
>> media player to feed my amp, would there be any theoretical or real
>> difference in sound quality compared to using my CD player.
>>
>> Answers and/or pointers highly appreciated.
>
> Both theoretically and practically, there should be no difference between
> a CD played on a CD player, and the same audio off a hard-disk. This of
> course assumes that the sound card in the PC is of decent quality. The
> audio system on the motherboard of some PCs is sufficiently poor that it
> could well sound worse than the CD player, but if you buy a good card,
> then there will be no difference.
>
> S.
>

Many thanks to all who answered my question.
Just what I needed to get me started.
I didn't even know there was an computer audiophile community out there...:)
Thanks again.

Re: Sound quality question

"Iordani" <somewhere@earth . net > wrote in message
news:fugf6706ck@news2.newsguy . com

> Just what I needed to get me started.
> I didn't even know there was an computer audiophile
> community out there...

There are a number of audio-related computer user communities, including:

DAW = Digital Audio Workstation for audio production.

If computers are good enough for producing recordings, why aren't they good
enough for listening to them?

HTPC = Home Theatre PC, relying on computers to reproduce both audio and
video with very high quality

Re: Sound quality question

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
news:fuj40c02540@news4.newsguy . com ...
>
> If computers are good enough for producing recordings, why aren't they
> good
> enough for listening to them?

Possibly because when listening, it's played in real time, and when
processing it's not.

Re: Sound quality question

"jeffc" <jeffc226@yahoo . com > wrote in message
news:fvkhlg02nep@news2.newsguy . com

> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote in message
> news:fuj40c02540@news4.newsguy . com ...

>> If computers are good enough for producing recordings,
>> why aren't they good enough for listening to them?

> Possibly because when listening, it's played in real
> time, and when processing it's not.

It is true that these days, almost every production step that does not
involve listening is done in far less than real time.

There's nothing that keeps the processing from being done in real time
except the impatience of the person doing the work.

Re: Sound quality question

On Apr 20, 4:13 pm, Iordani <somewh...@earth . net > wrote:
> Serge Auckland wrote:
> > "Iordani" <somewh...@earth . net > wrote in message
> >news:fudnus0299f@news5.newsguy . com ...
> >>I have a sound system which I'm very pleased with.
> >> (System Audio Explorer speakers and Musical Fidelity A300 amp and A3
> >> CD-player)
>
> >> If I were to convert my CDs to some lossless file format and store them
> >> on an (external) hard disk drive and then play them using computer and
> >> some
> >> media player to feed my amp,  would there be any theoretical or real
> >> difference in sound quality compared to using my CD player.
>
> >> Answers and/or pointers highly appreciated.
>
> > Both theoretically and practically, there should be no difference between
> > a CD played on a CD player, and the same audio off a hard-disk. This of
> > course assumes that the sound card in the PC is of decent quality. The
> > audio system on the motherboard of some PCs is sufficiently poor that it
> > could well sound worse than the CD player, but if you buy a good card,
> > then there will be no difference.
>
> > S.
>
> Many thanks to all who answered my question.
> Just what I needed to get me started.
> I didn't even know there was an computer audiophile community out there...:)
> Thanks again.

Get an external USB DAC and it will offer much better sound quality
than an internal card. The power supplies inside PCs are so noisy
compared to an external USB DAC,

Chris

Founder
Computer Audiophile
* w w w . com puteraudiophile . com

Re: Sound quality question

"Chris27" <chris@connaker . com > wrote in message

> Get an external USB DAC and it will offer much better
> sound quality than an internal card.

Some of the quietest audio interfaces around (e.g. LynxTWO) are PCI cards. I
know of no external converter that outperforms the best PCI cards. Can you
name one?

> The power supplies
> inside PCs are so noisy compared to an external USB DAC,

But, PC power supplies are inside a steel box and all the connections going
in and out are heavily bypassed.

Furthermore, the unique noise frequencies due to a PC power supply are all
ultrasonic.

Switchmode power supplies provide better isolation of power line
disturbances than linear power supplies. A wide range of high quality audio
gear now uses switchmode power supplies.

It has long been known that the limitation to the noise of mixed-signal
circuitry like a DAC is dependent on chip and circuit board design.
Mixed-mode circuit design used to be a black art, but now most of the
techniques are published.

Historically, USB DACs have been lower cost devices, with lower quality
DACs. Often, the DAC, ADC, and USB interface are all in one chip. Noise
transmission within the chip is the final frontier.

Also, most USB gear is powered by the USB cable which is connected to one of
those much-maligned PC power supplies. Partciularly in the case of laptops,
we sometimes find that noise and grounding problems from the laptop can
affect the operation of external audio interfaces.

There's no reason why a USB DAC couldn't be as quiet as a PCI DAC. I suspect
that for example, the Emu 0404 preforms about as well as a Lynx, is far less
expensive, and includes some pretty fair analog interfaces.

But the best possible USB data interface can't be as fast and realiable as a
well-designed and programmed PCI or PCI-E data interface that is inside a
computer. Stereo is easy, multichannel can be far more stressful.

Bottom line - choose audio gear based on how it works, not the details of
how it is made.

Re: Sound quality question

On Apr 22, 7:34 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
> "Chris27" <ch...@connaker . com > wrote in message
> > Get an external USB DAC and it will offer much better
> > sound quality than an internal card.
>
> Some of the quietest audio interfaces around (e.g. LynxTWO) are PCI cards. I
> know of no external converter that outperforms the best PCI cards. Can you
> name one?
>
> > The power supplies
> > inside PCs are so noisy compared to an external USB DAC,
>
> But, PC power supplies are inside a steel box and all the connections going
> in and out are heavily bypassed.
>
> Furthermore, the unique noise frequencies due to a PC power supply are all
> ultrasonic.
>
> Switchmode power supplies provide better isolation of power line
> disturbances than linear power supplies. A wide range of high quality audio
> gear now uses switchmode power supplies.
>
> It has long been known that the limitation to the noise of mixed-signal
> circuitry like a DAC is dependent on chip and circuit board design.
> Mixed-mode circuit design used to be a black art, but now most of the
> techniques are published.
>
> Historically, USB DACs have been lower cost devices, with lower quality
> DACs. Often, the DAC, ADC, and USB interface are all in one chip.  Noise
> transmission within the chip is the final frontier.
>
> Also, most USB gear is powered by the USB cable which is connected to one of
> those much-maligned PC power supplies. Partciularly in the case of laptops,
> we sometimes find that noise and grounding problems from the laptop can
> affect the operation of external audio interfaces.
>
> There's no reason why a USB DAC couldn't be as quiet as a PCI DAC. I suspect
> that for example, the Emu 0404 preforms about as well as a Lynx, is far less
> expensive, and includes some pretty fair analog interfaces.
>
> But the best possible USB data interface can't be as fast and realiable as a
> well-designed and programmed PCI or PCI-E data interface that is inside a
> computer. Stereo is easy, multichannel can be far more stressful.
>
> Bottom line - choose audio gear based on how it works, not the details of
> how it is made.

"> Some of the quietest audio interfaces around (e.g. LynxTWO) are PCI
cards. I
> know of no external converter that outperforms the best PCI cards. Can you
> name one?"

Certainly, The Wavelength Audio Crimson or the soon to be released
Audio Research DAC7.

I'm not talking about historical data here. USB DACs now use the
highest quality DACs available. No real good quality USB DAC is
powered by the USB bus.

What does your following statement have to do with audio?

"But the best possible USB data interface can't be as fast and
realiable as a
well-designed and programmed PCI or PCI-E data interface that is
inside a
computer."

I don't see where speed has anything to do with audio quality as long
as the pipe is large enough and USB 1.1 is large enough for high
resolution audio.

"A wide range of high quality audio
gear now uses switchmode power supplies. "

Can you let us now exactly what gear?

Re: Sound quality question

On Apr 19, 5:24 pm, Iordani <somewh...@earth . net > wrote:
> I have a sound system which I'm very pleased with.
> (System Audio Explorer speakers and Musical Fidelity A300 amp and A3
> CD-player)
>
> If I were to convert my CDs to some lossless file format and store them on
> an (external) hard disk drive and then play them using computer and some
> media player to feed my amp, would there be any theoretical or real
> difference in sound quality compared to using my CD player.
>
> Answers and/or pointers highly appreciated.

Welcome to the land of computer based music servers! Like any
audiophile system, the components, and computer configuration, make
all the difference in how much quality you can get from your computer
based music files. 1st, you should make sure that your computer is not
un-intentionally degrading the sound. For example, Windows XP had a
tendency to re-sample digital audio before sending the output through
your soundcard without you knowing about it. This issue was completely
addressed in Vista. If there is one shining example of a significant
improvement in Vista, that would be it. There are similar issues on
the Macintosh side as well. At the minimum, you should make sure your
computer and its software is not resampling any of the audio before it
sends it out.

Then there are DACs. Look at the EMU 0404 USB DAC. It's economically
priced and will get you started very well on your computer based music
server. There are also Computer Audiophile web sites.

There's much more to these quick blurbs but if you Google "turn down
the silence" you should be well on your way;)

CD

Re: Sound quality question

On Apr 19, 5:24 pm, Iordani <somewh...@earth . net > wrote:
> I have a sound system which I'm very pleased with.
> (System Audio Explorer speakers and Musical Fidelity A300 amp and A3
> CD-player)
>
> If I were to convert my CDs to some lossless file format and store them on
> an (external) hard disk drive and then play them using computer and some
> media player to feed my amp, would there be any theoretical or real
> difference in sound quality compared to using my CD player.
>
> Answers and/or pointers highly appreciated.

Assuming that the D/A converters and audio section in your CD player
and computer are of similar quality, there is no reason why you should
not get equivalent results except that it would be much easier to play
track that you wish using various search criteria on a computer. If
you are concerned about electrical noise issues with a computer, an
external DAC can be used but even relatively modest sound cards can
provide excellent results these days.

Re: Sound quality question

Iordani <somewhere@earth . net > wrote:

> I have a sound system which I'm very pleased with.
> (System Audio Explorer speakers and Musical Fidelity A300 amp and A3
> CD-player)
>
> If I were to convert my CDs to some lossless file format and store them on
> an (external) hard disk drive and then play them using computer and some
> media player to feed my amp, would there be any theoretical or real
> difference in sound quality compared to using my CD player.
>
> Answers and/or pointers highly appreciated.

There might be differences - as there might be audible differences
between cd players. From different sources you might get different
output, especially because computer outputs are sometimes very low
quality.

I can hear a little difference between playing from the computer over
Airtunes to an Airport Express station hooked up to the Rotel RA-1062
integrated and B&W 804S speakers. It seems to have a slightly different
frequency response. It's not that I'd say it sounds worse or better than
the RCD-1072, just a little bit different. I tried to level match as
good as I could so I hope I'm not just hearing volume difference.

The next part is: there are more "low level" audio components involved
which might or might not reproduce with lower quality than a good cd
player.

I know that some audiophiles would say that there is a "night and day"
difference and still wouldn't be able to get it right in a double blind
a/b test ...

So it comes down to: there might be a difference depending on the exact
equipment used. It might be better (if you have a really bad cd player)
or it might be worse. It might also just be slightly different. But
overall, it should sound pretty similar, if you have a decent sound
card.

Nevertheless I rarely play music from my computer as I like the
"feeling" of inserting a real cd in the player, lean back and listen.
It's just a different feeling and therefore sounds better to me ... ;-)

Believing is everything. If you believe, you will hear the often phrased
"night and day difference". If you don't believe, you might hear some
very little difference - or not.

cug

--
* w w w .event-s . net

Re: Sound quality question

On Apr 20, 10:42 am, guido.neit...@web.de (Guido Neitzer) wrote:
> Iordani <somewh...@earth . net > wrote:
> > I have a sound system which I'm very pleased with.
> > (System Audio Explorer speakers and Musical Fidelity A300 amp and A3
> > CD-player)
>
> > If I were to convert my CDs to some lossless file format and store them on
> > an (external) hard disk drive and then play them using computer and some
> > media player to feed my amp, would there be any theoretical or real
> > difference in sound quality compared to using my CD player.
>
> > Answers and/or pointers highly appreciated.
>
> There might be differences - as there might be audible differences
> between cd players. From different sources you might get different
> output, especially because computer outputs are sometimes very low
> quality.
>
> I can hear a little difference between playing from the computer over
> Airtunes to an Airport Express station hooked up to the Rotel RA-1062
> integrated and B&W 804S speakers. It seems to have a slightly different
> frequency response. It's not that I'd say it sounds worse or better than
> the RCD-1072, just a little bit different. I tried to level match as
> good as I could so I hope I'm not just hearing volume difference.
>
> The next part is: there are more "low level" audio components involved
> which might or might not reproduce with lower quality than a good cd
> player.
>
> I know that some audiophiles would say that there is a "night and day"
> difference and still wouldn't be able to get it right in a double blind
> a/b test ...
>
> So it comes down to: there might be a difference depending on the exact
> equipment used. It might be better (if you have a really bad cd player)
> or it might be worse. It might also just be slightly different. But
> overall, it should sound pretty similar, if you have a decent sound
> card.
>
> Nevertheless I rarely play music from my computer as I like the
> "feeling" of inserting a real cd in the player, lean back and listen.
> It's just a different feeling and therefore sounds better to me ... ;-)
>
> Believing is everything. If you believe, you will hear the often phrased
> "night and day difference". If you don't believe, you might hear some
> very little difference - or not.
>
> cug
>
> -- * w w w .event-s . net

Guido, for a mere $160 more, you could buy the Creative EMU 0404 USB
and hook it up to your system. Your Airport express would then
optically feed the 0404USB which would then D/A and send the audio to
your Rotel.

The difference will be night and day, and you might even be playing
your CD player less and less.

Give it a try. Your B&Ws deserve as much:)

CD

Re: Sound quality question

codifus <codifus@optonline . net > wrote:

> Guido, for a mere $160 more, you could buy the Creative EMU 0404 USB
> and hook it up to your system. Your Airport express would then
> optically feed the 0404USB which would then D/A and send the audio to
> your Rotel.

Actually, why should I do that? I said that I rarely play music through
the computer as I much prefer the feeling of inserting a disc and
sitting down to listen.

> The difference will be night and day, and you might even be playing
> your CD player less and less.

Oh, yeah. Night and day. Sorry, but I have a lot of experience with
music and also with good reproduction. Sorry, no dice.

cug

--
* w w w .event-s . net

Re: Sound quality question

On Apr 23, 9:29 pm, guido.neit...@web.de (Guido Neitzer) wrote:
> codifus <codi...@optonline . net > wrote:
> > Guido, for a mere $160 more, you could buy the Creative EMU 0404 USB
> > and hook it up to your system. Your Airport express would then
> > optically feed the 0404USB which would then D/A and send the audio to
> > your Rotel.
>
> Actually, why should I do that? I said that I rarely play music through
> the computer as I much prefer the feeling of inserting a disc and
> sitting down to listen.

A computer based music server gives you access to your entire music
library with a click of a few keystrokes. Convenince goes up 100 fold.
You already have a computer based music server based on itunes and the
Airport express, like mine. The one additional item could have really
brought your computer music alive. I know it did with mine. The EMU
0404USB is actually the main reason that I blew my speakers because I
was enjoying listen to music for longer periods of time at substantial
volume. I cooked my crossovers twice.

If this does not tickle your fancy, then OK. Moving right along.
>
> > The difference will be night and day, and you might even be playing
> > your CD player less and less.
>
> Oh, yeah. Night and day. Sorry, but I have a lot of experience with
> music and also with good reproduction. Sorry, no dice.

You can choose to ignore the advice I give if you like. You seem to
show yourself as someone who really appreciates music by the type of
system you have assembled. I find it curious that you can spend
$4000.00 on a pair of speakers but can't give $160 a try on a product
that is well regarded to improve your audio experience. You can even
return the product in 30 days for most shopping outlets. No harm done,
well maybe $8 total for shipping the return item.

OK then.

>
> cug
>
> -- * w w w .event-s . net

CD