Q re high quality CD players

Q re high quality CD players

My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so
good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're going
to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it
into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well
play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy their superior
playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality
amplifier.

Am I right?

Re: Q re high quality CD players

223rem <223rem@gmail . com > wrote:
> My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so
> good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're going
> to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it
> into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well
> play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy their superior
> playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality
> amplifier.

> Am I right?

Only partly, because you're making several huge assumptions about
price vs. quality in audio.

As a start it might help to actually find out what DACs are in
particular pieces of CD gear. Economies of scale can allow
the majors to use chips in their AVRS that are as good, or better,
than those found in boutique players costing several times as
much.

But it is certainly true that to listen to a *player's* DACs, you
have to use its analog outs. Otherwise you are using it as a
transport only.

--
-S
maybe they wanna rock.
maybe they need to rock.
Maybe it's for the money? But That's none of our business..our business as fans is to rock
with them.

Re: Q re high quality CD players

On May 10, 12:52 am, 223rem <223...@gmail . com > wrote:
> My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so
> good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion.

Depends what you mean by "superior." If you mean "audibly superior,"
then, no, high-end players are no better at D/A conversion than most
inexpensive models. D/A conversion is, at this stage, a trivial
process that even really cheap chips can do cleanly.

> So if you're going
> to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it
> into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well
> play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player.

This is true.

> To really enjoy their superior
> playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality
> amplifier.

Unless you're looking for distorted sound (or wishful thinking),
there's no such thing as superior CD playback anymore.

bob

Re: Q re high quality CD players

On May 10, 12:52 am, 223rem <223...@gmail . com > wrote:
> My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so
> good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're going
> to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it
> into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well
> play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy their superior
> playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality
> amplifier.
>
> Am I right?

There is not much about a CD player that is exotic these days.
Relatively low-cost players can sound very good regardless of which
output is used. In principle, there is no reason why a $20 CD player
couldn't provide good results although I would not recommending such a
unit for a variety of reasons aside from sound quality. If you go
through the RAHE archive you can find many recommendations for CD
players in the $150 or so price range that provide excellent sound.

Re: Q re high quality CD players

OK thanks everyone. So is it likely that a a cheapo CD player used as
a transport in combination with an OK receiver (I have a mosfet-based
Panasonic) will be just as good as a good CD player (one with high
quality DAC)?

Re: Q re high quality CD players

"223rem" <223remi@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:g04m5902lua@news2.newsguy . com ...
> OK thanks everyone. So is it likely that a a cheapo CD player used as
> a transport in combination with an OK receiver (I have a mosfet-based
> Panasonic) will be just as good as a good CD player (one with high
> quality DAC)?

It will be as good as the DAC in your receiver. These days it is hard to
make a bad DAC, so I would expect that the sound would be as good from a
cheapo CD player used as a transport as from a "high quality" CD player
using analogue outputs.

S.
--
* audiopages.googlepages . com

Re: Q re high quality CD players

On Sat, 10 May 2008 10:31:21 -0700, 223rem wrote
(in article <g04m5902lua@news2.newsguy . com >):

> OK thanks everyone. So is it likely that a a cheapo CD player used as
> a transport in combination with an OK receiver (I have a mosfet-based
> Panasonic) will be just as good as a good CD player (one with high
> quality DAC)?

You can't just plug a digital output into an amplifier (unless that amp has a
on-board Digital-to-Analog converter). Even if it does, its a toss-up as to
whether or not the DAC in the receiver (amp) is any better than the one in
the CD player. Mostly the DACs in receivers are for decoding 5.1 and DTS
sound from video DVDs (although they will play regular CDs). Mostly because
it's easier to run one digital coaxial cable or optical TOSLINK cable from
one's DVD player to one's receiver than it is to run SIX cables carrying the
already decoded 5.1 or DTS audio to a receiver.

Re: Q re high quality CD players

"223rem" <223remi@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:g04m5902lua@news2.newsguy . com

> OK thanks everyone. So is it likely that a a cheapo CD
> player used as a transport in combination with an OK
> receiver (I have a mosfet-based Panasonic) will be just
> as good as a good CD player (one with high quality DAC)?

If the receiver has digital inputs, yes. Receiver DACs generally outperform
the limitations of the CD format.

In addition, most low and medium priced surround receivers convert all
inputs to digital for the purpose of various processing steps. For example,
this kind of conversion allows avoiding the use of relatively expensive high
quality 6 and 8-channel volume controls. The quality of this conversion is
just a little bit better or about the same as the intherent limitations of
the CD format.

Re: Q re high quality CD players

223rem wrote:
> My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so
> good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're
> going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players
> and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you
> might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy
> their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and
> a good quality amplifier.
>
> Am I right?

Not too long ago I visited a high end shop for the purpose of auditioning a
particular loudspeaker. Naturally I brought with me some CD-Rs with a
specific purpose in mind. I recall the salesman saying that the (high end)
CD player in that showroom might not be able to read/play my CD-Rs because
it was rather fussy in this regard. I don't know if this is characteristic
of any other high end players. If it is, then buyer beware, particularly if
you anticipate being able to play CD-Rs of varying manufacture. Perhaps
others here can tell us of their experiences in this regard.

Re: Q re high quality CD players

On May 10, 10:29 am, "Norman M. Schwartz" <n...@optonline . net > wrote:
> 223rem wrote:
> > My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so
> > good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're
> > going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players
> > and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you
> > might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy
> > their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and
> > a good quality amplifier.
>
> > Am I right?
>
> Not too long ago I visited a high end shop for the purpose of auditioning a
> particular loudspeaker. Naturally I brought with me some CD-Rs with a
> specific purpose in mind. I recall the salesman saying that the (high end)
> CD player in that showroom might not be able to read/play my CD-Rs because
> it was rather fussy in this regard. I don't know if this is characteristic
> of any other high end players. If it is, then buyer beware, particularly if
> you anticipate being able to play CD-Rs of varying manufacture. Perhaps
> others here can tell us of their experiences in this regard.

I have an AMC CD-9 which, from the service manual, is the same as the
CD-8 without balanced output. It's very fussy about CD-Rs.
IME, current DVD players as CD players have no problem with CD-Rs and
provide the benefit of playing MP3 files etc.

I've also looked for CD players which use the latest in DAC chips from
the likes of AKM and Analog Devices. The player market appears to lag
significantly behind external devices for implementing latest DAC
chips with sound cards or external wireless, USB or Firewire DACs
being the early adopters.
I've read a bit from people who spoke of inherent flaws in SPDIF from
transports, clock jitter and lack of error correction being
mentioned. I'd be interested in comments on validating or refuting
these inherent issues.

ScottW

Re: Q re high quality CD players

"Norman M. Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline . net > wrote in message
news:g04m1n02lr3@news2.newsguy . com ...
> 223rem wrote:
>> My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so
>> good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're
>> going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players
>> and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you
>> might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy
>> their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and
>> a good quality amplifier.
>>
>> Am I right?
>
> Not too long ago I visited a high end shop for the purpose of auditioning
> a
> particular loudspeaker. Naturally I brought with me some CD-Rs with a
> specific purpose in mind. I recall the salesman saying that the (high end)
> CD player in that showroom might not be able to read/play my CD-Rs because
> it was rather fussy in this regard. I don't know if this is characteristic
> of any other high end players. If it is, then buyer beware, particularly
> if
> you anticipate being able to play CD-Rs of varying manufacture. Perhaps
> others here can tell us of their experiences in this regard.

Indeed. If I were to be in the market for a more expensive CD player, the
first thing I'd do is make sure it will play everything I throw at it, and
do it without burps, belches or other discontinuities.

I see no reason to buy any player that does not play all discs of the genus
CD or DVD.

Norm Strong

Re: Q re high quality CD players

On Sat, 10 May 2008 10:29:27 -0700, Norman M. Schwartz wrote
(in article <g04m1n02lr3@news2.newsguy . com >):

> 223rem wrote:
>> My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so
>> good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're
>> going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players
>> and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you
>> might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy
>> their superior playback quality you have to use the analog output and
>> a good quality amplifier.
>>
>> Am I right?
>
> Not too long ago I visited a high end shop for the purpose of auditioning a
> particular loudspeaker. Naturally I brought with me some CD-Rs with a
> specific purpose in mind. I recall the salesman saying that the (high end)
> CD player in that showroom might not be able to read/play my CD-Rs because
> it was rather fussy in this regard. I don't know if this is characteristic
> of any other high end players. If it is, then buyer beware, particularly if
> you anticipate being able to play CD-Rs of varying manufacture. Perhaps
> others here can tell us of their experiences in this regard.
>

Most CD players these days, irrespective of cost or pretension will play
CD-R's and even rewritable CD-Rs. But the previous poster has brought-up a
good point. If a high-end player won't playa CD-R, my advice is give it a
miss.

Re: Q re high quality CD players

Sonnova wrote:
> On Sat, 10 May 2008 10:29:27 -0700, Norman M. Schwartz wrote
> (in article <g04m1n02lr3@news2.newsguy . com >):
>
>> 223rem wrote:
>>> My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so
>>> good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're
>>> going to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players
>>> and plug it into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit;
>>> you might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really
>>> enjoy their superior playback quality you have to use the analog
>>> output and a good quality amplifier.
>>>
>>> Am I right?
>>
>> Not too long ago I visited a high end shop for the purpose of
>> auditioning a particular loudspeaker. Naturally I brought with me
>> some CD-Rs with a specific purpose in mind. I recall the salesman
>> saying that the (high end) CD player in that showroom might not be
>> able to read/play my CD-Rs because it was rather fussy in this
>> regard. I don't know if this is characteristic of any other high end
>> players. If it is, then buyer beware, particularly if you anticipate
>> being able to play CD-Rs of varying manufacture. Perhaps others here
>> can tell us of their experiences in this regard.
>>
>
> Most CD players these days, irrespective of cost or pretension will
> play CD-R's and even rewritable CD-Rs. But the previous poster has
> brought-up a good point. If a high-end player won't playa CD-R, my
> advice is give it a miss.

Apparently some optical disc players are very sensitive to the dye
formulation which goes into recordable media. One can't forsee picking up a
batch of media which won't playe properly. However, e.g., if Taiyo Yuden
works well in a player and you are satisfied in limiting yourself to their
product AND assuming that TY adheres to their same dye formulation, then you
are OK. However I wouldn't want to count on it. In this regard the salesman
informed me that in his experience inexpensive disc players (whether it be
one of the 'universal' optical disc players, or not) would perform better
than did the high end player hooked up in their showroom. I have a large
collection of CD-Rs, some of which happened to be on sale and therefore the
least costly at a given time, others are TDKs and were actually TDK branded
and outstanding in the early days of CD-R, but nowadays are usually CMC
Magnetics, and even many Taiyo Yudens, etc., etc. If I had to choose between
buying a high end player vs. one of the garden variety type, in the hope
that all my recordable discs (including re-writables) were compatible with
it, it seems that I would be forced to pick one of the latter variety.

Re: Q re high quality CD players

On Fri, 9 May 2008 21:52:02 -0700, 223rem wrote
(in article <g039li01t42@news4.newsguy . com >):

> My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD players so
> good is their superior Digital to Analog conversion. So if you're going
> to take the digital output (optic or coax) from such players and plug it
> into a amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit; you might as well
> play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player. To really enjoy their superior
> playback quality you have to use the analog output and a good quality
> amplifier.
>
> Am I right?

First of all, if you take the digital output and plug that into an amplifier,
all you will get is "computer noise" (actually, you likely won't get anything
that you can actually hear, at all.) because you must go through some kind of
DAC first. :->

But makers of high-end CD players do a number of things to justify their
price. Many use special transports (the mechanical part of the player)
designed to reduce jitter and stabilize the CD as it spins. Many use special
clock circuits, again to reduce jitter and some separate the analog power
supply from the digital power supply, in an effort to keep digital clocking
noise out of the music. Some use expensive DACs designed to reduce
quantization error by making each stair-step more precisely the same size.
Others use discrete transistor or even tube analog stages over IC operational
amplifiers for "better sound". And still others use such tricks as processing
a 16-bit CD with a 24-bit DAC and oversampling at 96 KHz. None of these
measures will hurt the sound of the CD, and on a theoretical level, many of
these things should be improvements over a cheap CD player with a cheap,
run-of-the-mill chip set. The problem is that nobody has been able
demonstrate that any of these "featured improvements", either alone or in
concert with others, makes for better CD playback.

Re: Q re high quality CD players

"223rem" <223rem@gmail . com > wrote in message
news:g039li01t42@news4.newsguy . com

> My (limited) understanding is that what makes high-end CD
> players so good is their superior Digital to Analog
> conversion.

Far more true in the past. Today, Digital-To-Analog converters that are
vastly superior to the inherent limitations of the audio CD format cost far
less. There is hardly any justification to skip on this part in players
costing more than about $80.

Converters that underperform the format are still used in optical players
priced below about $50.

> So if you're going to take the digital output
> (optic or coax) from such players and plug it into a
> amplifier you're NOT going to get any benefit;

That's just plain wrong. The digital outputs of CD players bypass the
internal converters.

> you might as well play the CDs on a 20 dollar CD player.

While 20 dollar CD players underperform the maximum capabilites of the
player, many of them perform well enough that the limitations of the
origional recording remains the limit on sound quality. 40 dollar DVD
players usually come within a few dB of exploiting the limitations of the
format, and vastly outperform the limitations of the recordings.

> To really
> enjoy their superior playback quality you have to use the
> analog output and a good quality amplifier.

The room that the recording was made in, the microphones, the speakers, and
the room that the recording is played in are the strongest limitations on
the sound quality of a well-made CD.

> Am I right?

I think you have just about everything wrong.