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System down: Audiophile urgency
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
"Codifus" <codifus@optonline,net > wrote in message
news:fu6c7602ivq@news2.newsguy,com ...
<snip>
> I do miss that Onkyo, though. It was less powerful, but cleaner. At full
> steam the Yamaha sounds a bit more harsh than the Onkyo ever did.
<snip>
You may have described the audible signs of "clipping" Perhaps your full
steam is a few two many pounds over pressure for the boiler!
Essentially clipping produces square waves, initially only on the highest
"peaks", but as the overload increases in severity, the impact of the
clipping becomes clearly audible. During the "is it or isn't it" stage - the
amp is still producing an increased spectrum of high frequencies, which
MIGHT be a worry to a marginally rated tweeter / crossover, but severe
clipping probably "takes out" the crossover / tweeter as well as
significantly increasing the power dissipated in the woofer. In addition
the effectiveness of it's voice coil cooling will be compromised - spending
time stopped at both extremities.
My guess would be you killed them Judging the onset of clipping is an art
depending on the music source material.
Good luck
Dave
"Codifus" <codifus@optonline,net > wrote in message
news:fu6c7602ivq@news2.newsguy,com ...
<snip>
> I do miss that Onkyo, though. It was less powerful, but cleaner. At full
> steam the Yamaha sounds a bit more harsh than the Onkyo ever did.
<snip>
You may have described the audible signs of "clipping" Perhaps your full
steam is a few two many pounds over pressure for the boiler!
Essentially clipping produces square waves, initially only on the highest
"peaks", but as the overload increases in severity, the impact of the
clipping becomes clearly audible. During the "is it or isn't it" stage - the
amp is still producing an increased spectrum of high frequencies, which
MIGHT be a worry to a marginally rated tweeter / crossover, but severe
clipping probably "takes out" the crossover / tweeter as well as
significantly increasing the power dissipated in the woofer. In addition
the effectiveness of it's voice coil cooling will be compromised - spending
time stopped at both extremities.
My guess would be you killed them Judging the onset of clipping is an art
depending on the music source material.
Good luck
Dave
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 18, 5:48 pm, "DC" <chudley d...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> "Codifus" <codi...@optonline,net > wrote in message
>
> news:fu6c7602ivq@news2.newsguy,com ...
>
> <snip>> I do miss that Onkyo, though. It was less powerful, but cleaner. At full
> > steam the Yamaha sounds a bit more harsh than the Onkyo ever did.
>
> <snip>
>
> You may have described the audible signs of "clipping" Perhaps your full
> steam is a few two many pounds over pressure for the boiler!
> Essentially clipping produces square waves, initially only on the highest
> "peaks", but as the overload increases in severity, the impact of the
> clipping becomes clearly audible. During the "is it or isn't it" stage - the
> amp is still producing an increased spectrum of high frequencies, which
> MIGHT be a worry to a marginally rated tweeter / crossover, but severe
> clipping probably "takes out" the crossover / tweeter as well as
> significantly increasing the power dissipated in the woofer. In addition
> the effectiveness of it's voice coil cooling will be compromised - spending
> time stopped at both extremities.
>
> My guess would be you killed them Judging the onset of clipping is an art
> depending on the music source material.
>
> Good luck
>
> Dave
The music source, in my scenario, is key. I love dynamic, powerful
music. Strong bass content in the 40 Hz and lower range just adds to
my enjoyment. From the study that Rene referenced, I can see that I
must have been clipping my system frequently, more due to the low
frequencies topping out my Yamaha, and the high frequencies which are
"riding the wave" and clipping at peak levels.
The Xovers over-heated and that was that. Last time this happened,
both my xovers died and I had no mid-range or tweeter, but all the
speakers themselves were fine.
Now, just one xover died and it took out only the tweeter. Again, the
tweeter is fine as I tested it outside of the system.
A bigger amplifier in my scenario would reduce the clipping, but high
average power levels (which I am bound to explore:)) will probably
cook the xovers again, as the xovers seem to be the weakest link of my
tower II speakers.
Also, I found another source of distortion: my music server. Basically
a software upgrade of itunes led to a hardware limitation in my music
server system.
I'll expand on that in another thread.
Thanks.
CD
On Apr 18, 5:48 pm, "DC" <chudley d...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> "Codifus" <codi...@optonline,net > wrote in message
>
> news:fu6c7602ivq@news2.newsguy,com ...
>
> <snip>> I do miss that Onkyo, though. It was less powerful, but cleaner. At full
> > steam the Yamaha sounds a bit more harsh than the Onkyo ever did.
>
> <snip>
>
> You may have described the audible signs of "clipping" Perhaps your full
> steam is a few two many pounds over pressure for the boiler!
> Essentially clipping produces square waves, initially only on the highest
> "peaks", but as the overload increases in severity, the impact of the
> clipping becomes clearly audible. During the "is it or isn't it" stage - the
> amp is still producing an increased spectrum of high frequencies, which
> MIGHT be a worry to a marginally rated tweeter / crossover, but severe
> clipping probably "takes out" the crossover / tweeter as well as
> significantly increasing the power dissipated in the woofer. In addition
> the effectiveness of it's voice coil cooling will be compromised - spending
> time stopped at both extremities.
>
> My guess would be you killed them Judging the onset of clipping is an art
> depending on the music source material.
>
> Good luck
>
> Dave
The music source, in my scenario, is key. I love dynamic, powerful
music. Strong bass content in the 40 Hz and lower range just adds to
my enjoyment. From the study that Rene referenced, I can see that I
must have been clipping my system frequently, more due to the low
frequencies topping out my Yamaha, and the high frequencies which are
"riding the wave" and clipping at peak levels.
The Xovers over-heated and that was that. Last time this happened,
both my xovers died and I had no mid-range or tweeter, but all the
speakers themselves were fine.
Now, just one xover died and it took out only the tweeter. Again, the
tweeter is fine as I tested it outside of the system.
A bigger amplifier in my scenario would reduce the clipping, but high
average power levels (which I am bound to explore:)) will probably
cook the xovers again, as the xovers seem to be the weakest link of my
tower II speakers.
Also, I found another source of distortion: my music server. Basically
a software upgrade of itunes led to a hardware limitation in my music
server system.
I'll expand on that in another thread.
Thanks.
CD
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
Codifus wrote:
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> .....
>
> I do miss that Onkyo, though. It was less powerful, but cleaner. At full
> steam the Yamaha sounds a bit more harsh than the Onkyo ever did. But
> then, the Onkyo had an overzealous self protection circuit. Once it was
> what seems like slightly overdriven, that Integra would simply click
> off. The Yamaha I can drive to absurdly loud levels and it never turns
> off. Only does an insane overload on the Yamaha force its protecttion
> circuit to kick in, like a badly corrupted wav file on my computer or
> something.
>
> Here's another thing I wonder: the Yamaha has an impedance matching
> switch on the back. Switch it to the left when attaching speakers with 4
> ohms of impedance. switch to the right for 6 ohms. My Tower IIs are
> nominally rated at 6 ohms so I left the Yamaha's switch at the 6 ohm
> setting.
>
> Does bi-wiring change the impedance presented to the amplifier in a
> considerable manner? Once I setup the Tower IIs in a bi-wire setup,
> should I have flipped the impedance switch to the 4 ohm setting? None of
> the manuals tell me much in that regard, just how things should be
> hooked up.
>
> Thanks
>
> CD
By the way I've had my xovers repaired for about a month or so now and I
think I found the culprit: the impedance switch. All along I thought it
was at the 6 ohm setting when it actually was at the 4 ohm setting.
Setting it correctly really changed things.
Now, I never even feel the need to push the amp passed 12 o'clock. And,
I noticed that I enjoy music more at lower volumes. When I do turn it
up, I tend to go to 10:30 or 11 oclock on the dial. And if I do go to 12
o'clock, I am absolutely going mad with the volume:) I can not go any
further.
Also, that comparison I made to the Onkyo and concluding that it was
much smoother was unfair to the Yamaha. I realised that the Onkyo spent
most of its time driving my Ensemble speakers which I based my fond
memory on. The Ensembles have a smooth mid-range, but it's a fault
because those ensembles also don't have much detail, are less dynamic,
and are 2 dimensional. The mid-range in the Tower IIs are much more
detailed, have punch/dynamic range, and the music has a 3rd dimension.
There's a very pleasant and intoxicating sense of depth with the Tower
IIs which makes me never want to go back to the Ensembles. In movie
soundtracks, if thunder strikes in the movie, I have to get up and look
out of the window to make sure it's not real. Or, if the doorbell or
telephone rings in a movie, I have to check myself to know that its in
the soundtrack, not real life. I freaking LOVE that about the Tower IIs:)
Conclusion? It looks like I was cooking the xovers in my speakers due to
setting the amp to the 4 ohm setting. That setting seemed to reduce the
dynamic power capability of the amp which made me turn it up more. By
turning it up more the amp spent more of its time producing an average
power output that was higher than usual. That higher average power
output may have kept my xovers working overtime and finally overheating
them to death.
In the 6 ohm setting the dynamic capabilty of the amp is restored so the
power of the music is greater, but the average time spent delivering
high current is lower.
Just thought you'd like to know.
CD
Codifus wrote:
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> .....
>
> I do miss that Onkyo, though. It was less powerful, but cleaner. At full
> steam the Yamaha sounds a bit more harsh than the Onkyo ever did. But
> then, the Onkyo had an overzealous self protection circuit. Once it was
> what seems like slightly overdriven, that Integra would simply click
> off. The Yamaha I can drive to absurdly loud levels and it never turns
> off. Only does an insane overload on the Yamaha force its protecttion
> circuit to kick in, like a badly corrupted wav file on my computer or
> something.
>
> Here's another thing I wonder: the Yamaha has an impedance matching
> switch on the back. Switch it to the left when attaching speakers with 4
> ohms of impedance. switch to the right for 6 ohms. My Tower IIs are
> nominally rated at 6 ohms so I left the Yamaha's switch at the 6 ohm
> setting.
>
> Does bi-wiring change the impedance presented to the amplifier in a
> considerable manner? Once I setup the Tower IIs in a bi-wire setup,
> should I have flipped the impedance switch to the 4 ohm setting? None of
> the manuals tell me much in that regard, just how things should be
> hooked up.
>
> Thanks
>
> CD
By the way I've had my xovers repaired for about a month or so now and I
think I found the culprit: the impedance switch. All along I thought it
was at the 6 ohm setting when it actually was at the 4 ohm setting.
Setting it correctly really changed things.
Now, I never even feel the need to push the amp passed 12 o'clock. And,
I noticed that I enjoy music more at lower volumes. When I do turn it
up, I tend to go to 10:30 or 11 oclock on the dial. And if I do go to 12
o'clock, I am absolutely going mad with the volume:) I can not go any
further.
Also, that comparison I made to the Onkyo and concluding that it was
much smoother was unfair to the Yamaha. I realised that the Onkyo spent
most of its time driving my Ensemble speakers which I based my fond
memory on. The Ensembles have a smooth mid-range, but it's a fault
because those ensembles also don't have much detail, are less dynamic,
and are 2 dimensional. The mid-range in the Tower IIs are much more
detailed, have punch/dynamic range, and the music has a 3rd dimension.
There's a very pleasant and intoxicating sense of depth with the Tower
IIs which makes me never want to go back to the Ensembles. In movie
soundtracks, if thunder strikes in the movie, I have to get up and look
out of the window to make sure it's not real. Or, if the doorbell or
telephone rings in a movie, I have to check myself to know that its in
the soundtrack, not real life. I freaking LOVE that about the Tower IIs:)
Conclusion? It looks like I was cooking the xovers in my speakers due to
setting the amp to the 4 ohm setting. That setting seemed to reduce the
dynamic power capability of the amp which made me turn it up more. By
turning it up more the amp spent more of its time producing an average
power output that was higher than usual. That higher average power
output may have kept my xovers working overtime and finally overheating
them to death.
In the 6 ohm setting the dynamic capabilty of the amp is restored so the
power of the music is greater, but the average time spent delivering
high current is lower.
Just thought you'd like to know.
CD
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Sonnova <sonn...@audiosanatorium,com > wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote
> (in article <ftt3lj01...@news2.newsguy,com >):
>
>
>
> > Hello all,
>
> > my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
> > breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
>
> > Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
>
> > Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
> > have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
> > near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
> > system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
> > the 0404 USB improved the system.
>
> > My system:
>
> > Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
> > The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
> > 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
> > rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
>
> > Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
> > Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
> > handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
> > web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
> > Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
> > Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
> > good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
> > fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
>
> > Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
> > the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
> > which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
> > respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
> > take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
> > flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
> > there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
> > convey the life of the music.
>
> > Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
> > ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
> > respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
> > their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
> > in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
> > previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
> > times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
> > With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
> > for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
>
> > "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
> > "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
> > "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
> > "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
> > movie soundtrack
>
> > Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
> > single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
> > speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
> > for the dual woofers.
>
> > Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
> > audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
> > control, onto the speakers. That's it.
>
> > Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
> > 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
> > and tweeter are SOL.
> > To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
> > that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
> > this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
>
> > For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
> > other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
> > given the history.
>
> > So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
> > I'm looking for:
>
> > Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
>
> > 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
>
> > Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
> > look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
> > whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
> > These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
>
> > Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
>
> > I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
> > anyone could point me to other options.
>
> > Thanks in advance.
>
> > I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
> > its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
>
> > Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
> > criteria I mentioned above.
>
> > Thanks
>
> > CD
>
> I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I
> do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or
> buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger
> amplifier, or better yet, do both!
>
> Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your
> Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much
> power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no
> uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs
> (the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping
> amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they
> get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is
> turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
> current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but
> essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded,
> they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100
> W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the
> crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
That's an interesting point that you bring up. At first I scratched my
head wondering if I'm really letting the amplifier clip. I googled up
clipping and came away with the impression that alot of clipping is
not quite obvious. NAD had an amplifier in the 1980s that had and LED
clipping light, which further suggests that when the amp was clipping
it need to make itself known, and not by ear. So I gather you are
totally on point about my clipping my speakers to death:)
You may have just saved me a lot of money. Rather than get new
speakers, I'll fix my Tower IIs again under warranty and try a beefier
amp. Should I get, like 200 watts/channel? How much is too much? Any
recommnedations on amps? I prefer integrated amps, stereo only. I
haven't made the jump to home theater and don't plan on it anytime
soon. I would have loved to own a NAD but have heard too many horror
stories about their un-reliabilty.
There's also this bad boy from Denon which peaked my interest;
http :// www .needledoctor,com /Denon-PMA-2000-IVR-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier
It's only rated at 80 w/channel but has very high current capability.
Any other suggestions out there?
Thanks
On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Sonnova <sonn...@audiosanatorium,com > wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote
> (in article <ftt3lj01...@news2.newsguy,com >):
>
>
>
> > Hello all,
>
> > my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
> > breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
>
> > Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
>
> > Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
> > have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
> > near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
> > system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
> > the 0404 USB improved the system.
>
> > My system:
>
> > Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
> > The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
> > 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
> > rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
>
> > Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
> > Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
> > handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
> > web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
> > Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
> > Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
> > good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
> > fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
>
> > Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
> > the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
> > which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
> > respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
> > take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
> > flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
> > there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
> > convey the life of the music.
>
> > Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
> > ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
> > respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
> > their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
> > in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
> > previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
> > times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
> > With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
> > for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
>
> > "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
> > "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
> > "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
> > "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
> > movie soundtrack
>
> > Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
> > single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
> > speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
> > for the dual woofers.
>
> > Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
> > audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
> > control, onto the speakers. That's it.
>
> > Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
> > 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
> > and tweeter are SOL.
> > To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
> > that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
> > this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
>
> > For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
> > other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
> > given the history.
>
> > So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
> > I'm looking for:
>
> > Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
>
> > 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
>
> > Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
> > look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
> > whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
> > These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
>
> > Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
>
> > I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
> > anyone could point me to other options.
>
> > Thanks in advance.
>
> > I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
> > its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
>
> > Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
> > criteria I mentioned above.
>
> > Thanks
>
> > CD
>
> I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I
> do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or
> buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger
> amplifier, or better yet, do both!
>
> Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your
> Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much
> power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no
> uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs
> (the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping
> amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they
> get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is
> turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
> current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but
> essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded,
> they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100
> W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the
> crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
That's an interesting point that you bring up. At first I scratched my
head wondering if I'm really letting the amplifier clip. I googled up
clipping and came away with the impression that alot of clipping is
not quite obvious. NAD had an amplifier in the 1980s that had and LED
clipping light, which further suggests that when the amp was clipping
it need to make itself known, and not by ear. So I gather you are
totally on point about my clipping my speakers to death:)
You may have just saved me a lot of money. Rather than get new
speakers, I'll fix my Tower IIs again under warranty and try a beefier
amp. Should I get, like 200 watts/channel? How much is too much? Any
recommnedations on amps? I prefer integrated amps, stereo only. I
haven't made the jump to home theater and don't plan on it anytime
soon. I would have loved to own a NAD but have heard too many horror
stories about their un-reliabilty.
There's also this bad boy from Denon which peaked my interest;
http :// www .needledoctor,com /Denon-PMA-2000-IVR-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier
It's only rated at 80 w/channel but has very high current capability.
Any other suggestions out there?
Thanks
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:56:14 -0700, codifus wrote
(in article <fu11vu0171j@news1.newsguy,com >):
> On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Sonnova <sonn...@audiosanatorium,com > wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote
>> (in article <ftt3lj01...@news2.newsguy,com >):
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>
>>> my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
>>> breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
>>
>>> Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
>>
>>> Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
>>> have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
>>> near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
>>> system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
>>> the 0404 USB improved the system.
>>
>>> My system:
>>
>>> Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
>>> The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
>>> 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
>>> rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
>>
>>> Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
>>> Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
>>> handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
>>> web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
>>> Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
>>> Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
>>> good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
>>> fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
>>
>>> Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
>>> the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
>>> which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
>>> respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
>>> take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
>>> flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
>>> there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
>>> convey the life of the music.
>>
>>> Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
>>> ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
>>> respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
>>> their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
>>> in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
>>> previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
>>> times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
>>> With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
>>> for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
>>
>>> "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
>>> "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
>>> "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
>>> "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
>>> movie soundtrack
>>
>>> Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
>>> single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
>>> speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
>>> for the dual woofers.
>>
>>> Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
>>> audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
>>> control, onto the speakers. That's it.
>>
>>> Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
>>> 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
>>> and tweeter are SOL.
>>> To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
>>> that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
>>> this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
>>
>>> For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
>>> other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
>>> given the history.
>>
>>> So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
>>> I'm looking for:
>>
>>> Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
>>
>>> 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
>>
>>> Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
>>> look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
>>> whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
>>> These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
>>
>>> Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
>>
>>> I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
>>> anyone could point me to other options.
>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>> I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
>>> its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
>>
>>> Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
>>> criteria I mentioned above.
>>
>>> Thanks
>>
>>> CD
>>
>> I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I
>> do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or
>> buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger
>> amplifier, or better yet, do both!
>>
>> Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your
>> Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much
>> power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no
>> uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs
>> (the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping
>> amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they
>> get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp
>> is
>> turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
>> current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but
>> essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly
>> exceeded,
>> they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a
>> 100
>> W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the
>> crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
>
> That's an interesting point that you bring up. At first I scratched my
> head wondering if I'm really letting the amplifier clip. I googled up
> clipping and came away with the impression that alot of clipping is
> not quite obvious. NAD had an amplifier in the 1980s that had and LED
> clipping light, which further suggests that when the amp was clipping
> it need to make itself known, and not by ear. So I gather you are
> totally on point about my clipping my speakers to death:)
>
> You may have just saved me a lot of money. Rather than get new
> speakers, I'll fix my Tower IIs again under warranty and try a beefier
> amp. Should I get, like 200 watts/channel? How much is too much?
For most people there is no upper range. I've seen people power speakers
rated at 200 Watts with 800 Watt amps without damage because the AVERAGE
power to the speakers in the 10's of Watts, not the hundreds. But then these
people weren't driving the speakers in question to self-destruct volume
levels either. The power is there to handle peaks, not to provide
ear-splitting volume levels. Remember power vs volume is largely a
logarithmic function. A 25 Watt amp is only twice as loud as a 2.5 Watt amp
and a 250 Watt amp only twice as loud as a 25 Watt amp (all else being
equal). There are other things to consider here as well. You may be using the
inappropriate speaker for the size room you have. If you are trying to play
music at rock concert levels in a fairly large room, you may be just driving
your speakers too hard. A bigger speaker system that was perhaps more
efficient and moved more air would play louder without stress than a smaller
speaker driven hard. That's just physics. The actual perceived loudness is a
function of how much air there is between your ears and the speaker drivers.
The greater the volume of the room, the more air that has to be moved to
attain the same dB level as is attained in a much smaller room with a smaller
speaker and amp.
Any
> recommnedations on amps? I prefer integrated amps, stereo only. I
> haven't made the jump to home theater and don't plan on it anytime
> soon. I would have loved to own a NAD but have heard too many horror
> stories about their un-reliabilty.
Try a Behringer EP2500 Power Amp as recommended by Arny Kruger. It puts out
more than 500 Watts/Channel into 6 Ohms and will set you back only about
$350. But do yourself a favor, and put a fuse in line with the speaker. Find
out how much power the speakers are rated at, and their nominal impedance.
Use the formula I (for the fuse size in amperes) = the square root of P (the
speakers rated power handling capacity in Watts) divided by R (the nominal
speaker impedance in ohms). Go for a fast-blow fuse about 10% larger than the
results of the math.
> There's also this bad boy from Denon which peaked my interest;
>
> http :// www .needledoctor,com /Denon-PMA-2000-IVR-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier
>
> It's only rated at 80 w/channel but has very high current capability.
>
> Any other suggestions out there?
Buy a Behringer, you won't be disappointed.
>
> Thanks
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:56:14 -0700, codifus wrote
(in article <fu11vu0171j@news1.newsguy,com >):
> On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Sonnova <sonn...@audiosanatorium,com > wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote
>> (in article <ftt3lj01...@news2.newsguy,com >):
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>
>>> my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
>>> breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
>>
>>> Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
>>
>>> Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
>>> have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
>>> near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
>>> system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
>>> the 0404 USB improved the system.
>>
>>> My system:
>>
>>> Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
>>> The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
>>> 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
>>> rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
>>
>>> Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
>>> Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
>>> handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
>>> web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
>>> Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
>>> Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
>>> good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
>>> fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
>>
>>> Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
>>> the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
>>> which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
>>> respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
>>> take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
>>> flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
>>> there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
>>> convey the life of the music.
>>
>>> Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
>>> ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
>>> respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
>>> their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
>>> in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
>>> previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
>>> times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
>>> With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
>>> for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
>>
>>> "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
>>> "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
>>> "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
>>> "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
>>> movie soundtrack
>>
>>> Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
>>> single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
>>> speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
>>> for the dual woofers.
>>
>>> Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
>>> audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
>>> control, onto the speakers. That's it.
>>
>>> Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
>>> 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
>>> and tweeter are SOL.
>>> To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
>>> that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
>>> this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
>>
>>> For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
>>> other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
>>> given the history.
>>
>>> So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
>>> I'm looking for:
>>
>>> Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
>>
>>> 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
>>
>>> Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
>>> look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
>>> whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
>>> These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
>>
>>> Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
>>
>>> I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
>>> anyone could point me to other options.
>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>> I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
>>> its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
>>
>>> Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
>>> criteria I mentioned above.
>>
>>> Thanks
>>
>>> CD
>>
>> I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I
>> do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or
>> buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger
>> amplifier, or better yet, do both!
>>
>> Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your
>> Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much
>> power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no
>> uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs
>> (the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping
>> amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they
>> get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp
>> is
>> turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
>> current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but
>> essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly
>> exceeded,
>> they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a
>> 100
>> W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the
>> crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
>
> That's an interesting point that you bring up. At first I scratched my
> head wondering if I'm really letting the amplifier clip. I googled up
> clipping and came away with the impression that alot of clipping is
> not quite obvious. NAD had an amplifier in the 1980s that had and LED
> clipping light, which further suggests that when the amp was clipping
> it need to make itself known, and not by ear. So I gather you are
> totally on point about my clipping my speakers to death:)
>
> You may have just saved me a lot of money. Rather than get new
> speakers, I'll fix my Tower IIs again under warranty and try a beefier
> amp. Should I get, like 200 watts/channel? How much is too much?
For most people there is no upper range. I've seen people power speakers
rated at 200 Watts with 800 Watt amps without damage because the AVERAGE
power to the speakers in the 10's of Watts, not the hundreds. But then these
people weren't driving the speakers in question to self-destruct volume
levels either. The power is there to handle peaks, not to provide
ear-splitting volume levels. Remember power vs volume is largely a
logarithmic function. A 25 Watt amp is only twice as loud as a 2.5 Watt amp
and a 250 Watt amp only twice as loud as a 25 Watt amp (all else being
equal). There are other things to consider here as well. You may be using the
inappropriate speaker for the size room you have. If you are trying to play
music at rock concert levels in a fairly large room, you may be just driving
your speakers too hard. A bigger speaker system that was perhaps more
efficient and moved more air would play louder without stress than a smaller
speaker driven hard. That's just physics. The actual perceived loudness is a
function of how much air there is between your ears and the speaker drivers.
The greater the volume of the room, the more air that has to be moved to
attain the same dB level as is attained in a much smaller room with a smaller
speaker and amp.
Any
> recommnedations on amps? I prefer integrated amps, stereo only. I
> haven't made the jump to home theater and don't plan on it anytime
> soon. I would have loved to own a NAD but have heard too many horror
> stories about their un-reliabilty.
Try a Behringer EP2500 Power Amp as recommended by Arny Kruger. It puts out
more than 500 Watts/Channel into 6 Ohms and will set you back only about
$350. But do yourself a favor, and put a fuse in line with the speaker. Find
out how much power the speakers are rated at, and their nominal impedance.
Use the formula I (for the fuse size in amperes) = the square root of P (the
speakers rated power handling capacity in Watts) divided by R (the nominal
speaker impedance in ohms). Go for a fast-blow fuse about 10% larger than the
results of the math.
> There's also this bad boy from Denon which peaked my interest;
>
> http :// www .needledoctor,com /Denon-PMA-2000-IVR-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier
>
> It's only rated at 80 w/channel but has very high current capability.
>
> Any other suggestions out there?
Buy a Behringer, you won't be disappointed.
>
> Thanks
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 14, 9:56 pm, codifus <codi...@optonline,net > wrote:
> On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Sonnova <sonn...@audiosanatorium,com > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote
> > (in article <ftt3lj01...@news2.newsguy,com >):
>
> > > Hello all,
>
> > > my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
> > > breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
>
> > > Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
>
> > > Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
> > > have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
> > > near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
> > > system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
> > > the 0404 USB improved the system.
>
> > > My system:
>
> > > Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
> > > The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
> > > 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
> > > rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
>
> > > Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
> > > Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
> > > handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
> > > web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
> > > Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
> > > Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
> > > good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
> > > fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
>
> > > Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
> > > the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
> > > which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
> > > respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
> > > take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
> > > flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
> > > there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
> > > convey the life of the music.
>
> > > Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
> > > ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
> > > respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
> > > their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
> > > in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
> > > previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
> > > times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
> > > With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
> > > for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
>
> > > "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
> > > "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
> > > "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
> > > "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
> > > movie soundtrack
>
> > > Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
> > > single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
> > > speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
> > > for the dual woofers.
>
> > > Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
> > > audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
> > > control, onto the speakers. That's it.
>
> > > Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
> > > 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
> > > and tweeter are SOL.
> > > To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
> > > that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
> > > this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
>
> > > For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
> > > other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
> > > given the history.
>
> > > So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
> > > I'm looking for:
>
> > > Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
>
> > > 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
>
> > > Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
> > > look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
> > > whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
> > > These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
>
> > > Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
>
> > > I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
> > > anyone could point me to other options.
>
> > > Thanks in advance.
>
> > > I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
> > > its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
>
> > > Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
> > > criteria I mentioned above.
>
> > > Thanks
>
> > > CD
>
> > I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I
> > do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or
> > buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger
> > amplifier, or better yet, do both!
>
> > Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your
> > Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much
> > power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no
> > uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs
> > (the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping
> > amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they
> > get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is
> > turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
> > current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but
> > essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded,
> > they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100
> > W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the
> > crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
>
> That's an interesting point that you bring up. At first I scratched my
> head wondering if I'm really letting the amplifier clip. I googled up
> clipping and came away with the impression that alot of clipping is
> not quite obvious. NAD had an amplifier in the 1980s that had and LED
> clipping light, which further suggests that when the amp was clipping
> it need to make itself known, and not by ear. So I gather you are
> totally on point about my clipping my speakers to death:)
>
> You may have just saved me a lot of money. Rather than get new
> speakers, I'll fix my Tower IIs again under warranty and try a beefier
> amp. Should I get, like 200 watts/channel? How much is too much? Any
> recommnedations on amps? I prefer integrated amps, stereo only. I
> haven't made the jump to home theater and don't plan on it anytime
> soon. I would have loved to own a NAD but have heard too many horror
> stories about their un-reliabilty.
>
> There's also this bad boy from Denon which peaked my interest;
>
> http :// www .needledoctor,com /Denon-PMA-2000-IVR-Stereo-Integrated-Ampl...
>
> It's only rated at 80 w/channel but has very high current capability.
>
> Any other suggestions out there?
I'm not sure what your problem is, but I'm pretty sure the problem is
NOT that your Yamaha amp just can't drive your speakers. And if a
100wpc Yamaha amp can't drive them, an 80wpc Denon is unlikely to do
the trick, either.
There may be something wrong with your amp that is causing this
problem, and you might want to have a tech look at it. But my guess is
that the speakers are your problem, and you should replace them. If
you want a bargain, look for a pair of the discontinued Infinity Beta
50s, of few of which are still available.
bob
On Apr 14, 9:56 pm, codifus <codi...@optonline,net > wrote:
> On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Sonnova <sonn...@audiosanatorium,com > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote
> > (in article <ftt3lj01...@news2.newsguy,com >):
>
> > > Hello all,
>
> > > my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
> > > breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
>
> > > Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
>
> > > Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
> > > have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
> > > near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
> > > system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
> > > the 0404 USB improved the system.
>
> > > My system:
>
> > > Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
> > > The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
> > > 0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
> > > rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
>
> > > Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
> > > Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
> > > handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
> > > web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
> > > Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
> > > Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
> > > good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
> > > fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
>
> > > Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
> > > the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
> > > which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
> > > respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
> > > take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
> > > flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
> > > there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
> > > convey the life of the music.
>
> > > Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
> > > ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
> > > respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
> > > their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
> > > in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
> > > previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
> > > times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
> > > With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
> > > for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
>
> > > "Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
> > > "Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
> > > "Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
> > > "Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
> > > movie soundtrack
>
> > > Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
> > > single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
> > > speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
> > > for the dual woofers.
>
> > > Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
> > > audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
> > > control, onto the speakers. That's it.
>
> > > Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
> > > 5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
> > > and tweeter are SOL.
> > > To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
> > > that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
> > > this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
>
> > > For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
> > > other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
> > > given the history.
>
> > > So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
> > > I'm looking for:
>
> > > Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
>
> > > 3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
>
> > > Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
> > > look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
> > > whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
> > > These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
>
> > > Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
>
> > > I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
> > > anyone could point me to other options.
>
> > > Thanks in advance.
>
> > > I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
> > > its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
>
> > > Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
> > > criteria I mentioned above.
>
> > > Thanks
>
> > > CD
>
> > I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I
> > do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or
> > buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger
> > amplifier, or better yet, do both!
>
> > Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your
> > Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much
> > power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no
> > uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs
> > (the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping
> > amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they
> > get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is
> > turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
> > current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but
> > essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded,
> > they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100
> > W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the
> > crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
>
> That's an interesting point that you bring up. At first I scratched my
> head wondering if I'm really letting the amplifier clip. I googled up
> clipping and came away with the impression that alot of clipping is
> not quite obvious. NAD had an amplifier in the 1980s that had and LED
> clipping light, which further suggests that when the amp was clipping
> it need to make itself known, and not by ear. So I gather you are
> totally on point about my clipping my speakers to death:)
>
> You may have just saved me a lot of money. Rather than get new
> speakers, I'll fix my Tower IIs again under warranty and try a beefier
> amp. Should I get, like 200 watts/channel? How much is too much? Any
> recommnedations on amps? I prefer integrated amps, stereo only. I
> haven't made the jump to home theater and don't plan on it anytime
> soon. I would have loved to own a NAD but have heard too many horror
> stories about their un-reliabilty.
>
> There's also this bad boy from Denon which peaked my interest;
>
> http :// www .needledoctor,com /Denon-PMA-2000-IVR-Stereo-Integrated-Ampl...
>
> It's only rated at 80 w/channel but has very high current capability.
>
> Any other suggestions out there?
I'm not sure what your problem is, but I'm pretty sure the problem is
NOT that your Yamaha amp just can't drive your speakers. And if a
100wpc Yamaha amp can't drive them, an 80wpc Denon is unlikely to do
the trick, either.
There may be something wrong with your amp that is causing this
problem, and you might want to have a tech look at it. But my guess is
that the speakers are your problem, and you should replace them. If
you want a bargain, look for a pair of the discontinued Infinity Beta
50s, of few of which are still available.
bob
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
bob wrote:
> On Apr 14, 9:56 pm, codifus <codi...@optonline,net > wrote:
>
>>On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Sonnova <sonn...@audiosanatorium,com > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote
>>>(in article <ftt3lj01...@news2.newsguy,com >):
>>
>>>>Hello all,
>>
>>>>my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
>>>>breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
>>
>>>>Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
>>
>>>>Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
>>>>have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
>>>>near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
>>>>system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
>>>>the 0404 USB improved the system.
>>
>>>>My system:
>>
>>>>Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
>>>>The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
>>>>0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
>>>>rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
>>
>>>>Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
>>>>Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
>>>>handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
>>>>web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
>>>>Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
>>>>Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
>>>>good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
>>>>fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
>>
>>>>Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
>>>>the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
>>>>which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
>>>>respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
>>>>take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
>>>>flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
>>>>there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
>>>>convey the life of the music.
>>
>>>>Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
>>>>ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
>>>>respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
>>>>their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
>>>>in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
>>>>previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
>>>>times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
>>>> With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
>>>>for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
>>
>>>>"Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
>>>>"Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
>>>>"Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
>>>>"Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
>>>>movie soundtrack
>>
>>>>Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
>>>>single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
>>>>speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
>>>>for the dual woofers.
>>
>>>>Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
>>>>audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
>>>>control, onto the speakers. That's it.
>>
>>>>Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
>>>>5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
>>>>and tweeter are SOL.
>>>>To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
>>>>that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
>>>>this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
>>
>>>>For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
>>>>other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
>>>>given the history.
>>
>>>>So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
>>>>I'm looking for:
>>
>>>>Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
>>
>>>>3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
>>
>>>>Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
>>>>look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
>>>>whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
>>>>These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
>>
>>>>Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
>>
>>>>I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
>>>>anyone could point me to other options.
>>
>>>>Thanks in advance.
>>
>>>>I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
>>>>its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
>>
>>>>Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
>>>>criteria I mentioned above.
>>
>>>>Thanks
>>
>>>>CD
>>
>>>I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I
>>>do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or
>>>buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger
>>>amplifier, or better yet, do both!
>>
>>>Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your
>>>Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much
>>>power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no
>>>uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs
>>>(the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping
>>>amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they
>>>get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is
>>>turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
>>>current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but
>>>essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded,
>>>they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100
>>>W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the
>>>crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
>>
>>That's an interesting point that you bring up. At first I scratched my
>>head wondering if I'm really letting the amplifier clip. I googled up
>>clipping and came away with the impression that alot of clipping is
>>not quite obvious. NAD had an amplifier in the 1980s that had and LED
>>clipping light, which further suggests that when the amp was clipping
>>it need to make itself known, and not by ear. So I gather you are
>>totally on point about my clipping my speakers to death:)
>>
>>You may have just saved me a lot of money. Rather than get new
>>speakers, I'll fix my Tower IIs again under warranty and try a beefier
>>amp. Should I get, like 200 watts/channel? How much is too much? Any
>>recommnedations on amps? I prefer integrated amps, stereo only. I
>>haven't made the jump to home theater and don't plan on it anytime
>>soon. I would have loved to own a NAD but have heard too many horror
>>stories about their un-reliabilty.
>>
>>There's also this bad boy from Denon which peaked my interest;
>>
>> http :// www .needledoctor,com /Denon-PMA-2000-IVR-Stereo-Integrated-Ampl...
>>
>>It's only rated at 80 w/channel but has very high current capability.
>>
>>Any other suggestions out there?
>
>
> I'm not sure what your problem is, but I'm pretty sure the problem is
> NOT that your Yamaha amp just can't drive your speakers. And if a
> 100wpc Yamaha amp can't drive them, an 80wpc Denon is unlikely to do
> the trick, either.
>
> There may be something wrong with your amp that is causing this
> problem, and you might want to have a tech look at it. But my guess is
> that the speakers are your problem, and you should replace them. If
> you want a bargain, look for a pair of the discontinued Infinity Beta
> 50s, of few of which are still available.
>
> bob
The Denon is avery high current amplifier with a circuit design that is
described as able to accommodate more headroom (less clipping I assume
when driving hard) than most traditional amplifier designs. It may be
rated as less powerfull than my Yamaha, but reviews and its literature
suggest that it can deliver more.
When I 1st bought the Yamaha, I was also looking at the Denon and NAD
C372. If the NAD was reliable, I would have bought it. There was also a
Rotel Amp, I forgot which model, though.
Those beta 50s are very interesting, and quite inexpensive, too. I may
experiment with them for a time being while my speakers are being
repaired. They are like a non-identical twin to the Tower IIs. Same
speaker setup with dual 8" woofers, midrange and tweeter. Most fascinating:)
CD
bob wrote:
> On Apr 14, 9:56 pm, codifus <codi...@optonline,net > wrote:
>
>>On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Sonnova <sonn...@audiosanatorium,com > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:00:19 -0700, Codifus wrote
>>>(in article <ftt3lj01...@news2.newsguy,com >):
>>
>>>>Hello all,
>>
>>>>my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
>>>>breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
>>
>>>>Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
>>
>>>>Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
>>>>have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
>>>>near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
>>>>system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
>>>>the 0404 USB improved the system.
>>
>>>>My system:
>>
>>>>Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
>>>>The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
>>>>0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
>>>>rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
>>
>>>>Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
>>>>Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
>>>>handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
>>>>web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
>>>>Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
>>>>Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
>>>>good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
>>>>fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
>>
>>>>Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
>>>>the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
>>>>which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
>>>>respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
>>>>take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
>>>>flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
>>>>there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
>>>>convey the life of the music.
>>
>>>>Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
>>>>ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
>>>>respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
>>>>their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
>>>>in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
>>>>previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
>>>>times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
>>>> With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
>>>>for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
>>
>>>>"Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
>>>>"Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
>>>>"Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
>>>>"Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
>>>>movie soundtrack
>>
>>>>Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
>>>>single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
>>>>speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
>>>>for the dual woofers.
>>
>>>>Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
>>>>audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
>>>>control, onto the speakers. That's it.
>>
>>>>Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
>>>>5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
>>>>and tweeter are SOL.
>>>>To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
>>>>that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
>>>>this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
>>
>>>>For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
>>>>other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
>>>>given the history.
>>
>>>>So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
>>>>I'm looking for:
>>
>>>>Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
>>
>>>>3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
>>
>>>>Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
>>>>look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
>>>>whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
>>>>These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
>>
>>>>Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
>>
>>>>I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
>>>>anyone could point me to other options.
>>
>>>>Thanks in advance.
>>
>>>>I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
>>>>its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
>>
>>>>Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
>>>>criteria I mentioned above.
>>
>>>>Thanks
>>
>>>>CD
>>
>>>I can't give you any recommendations with regard to specific speakers, but I
>>>do have a suggestion: Whether you get your current speakers fixed again or
>>>buy new ones either put a fuse in-line with the speakers or get a bigger
>>>amplifier, or better yet, do both!
>>
>>>Yes, you heard me right, a BIGGER amplifier. You are likely clipping your
>>>Yamaha and clipping amps will fry speakers a lot quicker than will too-much
>>>power. As long as the amp isn't clipping, your speakers will tell you in no
>>>uncertain terms that you are overdriving them long before any damage occurs
>>>(the cones will rattle and the voice coils will bottom-out), but clipping
>>>amps exceed the duty cycles of voice coils and crossover inductors and they
>>>get hot with no chance to cool down between waveform peaks (a clipping amp is
>>>turned on-HARD for all the time it's clipping essentially dumping lots of
>>>current into the speakers non-stop. This is a gross simplification but
>>>essentially, when these components get their duty cycles constantly exceeded,
>>>they burn-up. A bigger amp will alleviate this problem. I can't imagine a 100
>>>W/channel amplifier damaging any modern, decent speaker. Especially the
>>>crossover - unless its clipping and clipping a lot!
>>
>>That's an interesting point that you bring up. At first I scratched my
>>head wondering if I'm really letting the amplifier clip. I googled up
>>clipping and came away with the impression that alot of clipping is
>>not quite obvious. NAD had an amplifier in the 1980s that had and LED
>>clipping light, which further suggests that when the amp was clipping
>>it need to make itself known, and not by ear. So I gather you are
>>totally on point about my clipping my speakers to death:)
>>
>>You may have just saved me a lot of money. Rather than get new
>>speakers, I'll fix my Tower IIs again under warranty and try a beefier
>>amp. Should I get, like 200 watts/channel? How much is too much? Any
>>recommnedations on amps? I prefer integrated amps, stereo only. I
>>haven't made the jump to home theater and don't plan on it anytime
>>soon. I would have loved to own a NAD but have heard too many horror
>>stories about their un-reliabilty.
>>
>>There's also this bad boy from Denon which peaked my interest;
>>
>> http :// www .needledoctor,com /Denon-PMA-2000-IVR-Stereo-Integrated-Ampl...
>>
>>It's only rated at 80 w/channel but has very high current capability.
>>
>>Any other suggestions out there?
>
>
> I'm not sure what your problem is, but I'm pretty sure the problem is
> NOT that your Yamaha amp just can't drive your speakers. And if a
> 100wpc Yamaha amp can't drive them, an 80wpc Denon is unlikely to do
> the trick, either.
>
> There may be something wrong with your amp that is causing this
> problem, and you might want to have a tech look at it. But my guess is
> that the speakers are your problem, and you should replace them. If
> you want a bargain, look for a pair of the discontinued Infinity Beta
> 50s, of few of which are still available.
>
> bob
The Denon is avery high current amplifier with a circuit design that is
described as able to accommodate more headroom (less clipping I assume
when driving hard) than most traditional amplifier designs. It may be
rated as less powerfull than my Yamaha, but reviews and its literature
suggest that it can deliver more.
When I 1st bought the Yamaha, I was also looking at the Denon and NAD
C372. If the NAD was reliable, I would have bought it. There was also a
Rotel Amp, I forgot which model, though.
Those beta 50s are very interesting, and quite inexpensive, too. I may
experiment with them for a time being while my speakers are being
repaired. They are like a non-identical twin to the Tower IIs. Same
speaker setup with dual 8" woofers, midrange and tweeter. Most fascinating:)
CD
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Apr 16, 10:18 pm, Codifus <codi...@optonline,net > wrote:
> The Denon is avery high current amplifier with a circuit design that is
> described as able to accommodate more headroom (less clipping I assume
> when driving hard) than most traditional amplifier designs. It may be
> rated as less powerfull than my Yamaha, but reviews and its literature
> suggest that it can deliver more.
Unless you've seen independent measurements, I would take those claims
with a large grain of salt. The Denon does step up a bit more into 4
ohms than the Yamaha does (80 to 160, vs. 100 to 155), but they wind
up in the same place. For what it's worth, Yamaha claims dynamic power
of 220w into 4 ohms.
In short, I don't see any way that your Yamaha is clipping, unless
it's malfunctioning. And if it's not clipping, the Denon isn't going
to solve your problem.
bob
On Apr 16, 10:18 pm, Codifus <codi...@optonline,net > wrote:
> The Denon is avery high current amplifier with a circuit design that is
> described as able to accommodate more headroom (less clipping I assume
> when driving hard) than most traditional amplifier designs. It may be
> rated as less powerfull than my Yamaha, but reviews and its literature
> suggest that it can deliver more.
Unless you've seen independent measurements, I would take those claims
with a large grain of salt. The Denon does step up a bit more into 4
ohms than the Yamaha does (80 to 160, vs. 100 to 155), but they wind
up in the same place. For what it's worth, Yamaha claims dynamic power
of 220w into 4 ohms.
In short, I don't see any way that your Yamaha is clipping, unless
it's malfunctioning. And if it's not clipping, the Denon isn't going
to solve your problem.
bob
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
Revel speakers are not especially efficient, but they do have quite high
power handling capability, and the capability to play what is sent to them
at high levels without compressing.
Actually, I'm speaking about the Gem and better, but I assume there is
trickle-down to their lower models too. That is if you can afford the
higher pricetag than you Cambridge.
Revel speakers are not especially efficient, but they do have quite high
power handling capability, and the capability to play what is sent to them
at high levels without compressing.
Actually, I'm speaking about the Gem and better, but I assume there is
trickle-down to their lower models too. That is if you can afford the
higher pricetag than you Cambridge.
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to
remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the
first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to
blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a
look: http :// www .emu,com /products/product.asp?product=15185
When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital
pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp.
Just don't blame me if you wear out the rest of your gear as a result
of this little box! :-)
On 13 Apr 2008 14:00:19 GMT, Codifus <codifus@optonline,net > wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
>breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
>
>Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
>
>Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
>have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
>near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
>system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
>the 0404 USB improved the system.
>
>My system:
>
>Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
>The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
>0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
>rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
>
>Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
>Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
>handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
>web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
>Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
>Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
>good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
>fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
>
>Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
>the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
>which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
>respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
>take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
>flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
>there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
>convey the life of the music.
>
>Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
>ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
>respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
>their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
>in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
>previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
>times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
> With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
>for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
>
>"Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
>"Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
>"Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
>"Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
>movie soundtrack
>
>Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
>single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
>speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
>for the dual woofers.
>
>Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
>audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
>control, onto the speakers. That's it.
>
>Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
>5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
>and tweeter are SOL.
>To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
>that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
>this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
>
>For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
>other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
>given the history.
>
>So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
>I'm looking for:
>
>Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
>
>3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
>
>Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
>look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
>whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
>These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
>
>Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
>
>I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
>anyone could point me to other options.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
>its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
>
>Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
>criteria I mentioned above.
>
>Thanks
>
>CD
---
Rob Tweed
Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd
Registered in England: No 3220901
Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR
Web-site: http :// www .mgateway,com
SlipstreamUSA: April 2, Renaissance Hotel, Orlando
http :// www .OutOfTheSlipstream,com
Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to
remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the
first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to
blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a
look: http :// www .emu,com /products/product.asp?product=15185
When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital
pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp.
Just don't blame me if you wear out the rest of your gear as a result
of this little box! :-)
On 13 Apr 2008 14:00:19 GMT, Codifus <codifus@optonline,net > wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>my beloved and economic audiophile system has experienced another
>breakdown. This is the 2nd one in 4 months.
>
>Who is the culprit? The EMU 0404 USB. Do I blame it? No. Not at all.
>
>Why? I've been enjoying music so much now with the 0404 USB that there
>have been periods that I would listen for several hours on end, at or
>near rated amplifier power, no doubt stressing all components of my
>system. I was never able to do this before, and I love the way the way
>the 0404 USB improved the system.
>
>My system:
>
>Itunes based music server feeding an Apple Airport Express.
>The Airport Express optically feeds the EMU 0404 USB a 44/16 signal. The
>0404USB then feeds its line level output to a Yamaha AX-596 amplifier
>rated at 100 watts/channel with a healthy abilitty to drive 4 ohms.
>
>Speakers? Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs. Power rating? I'm not sure.
>Cambridge Soundworks has been very careful to keep the speaker power
>handling spec, but from obscure data picked up here and there on the
>web, I gather that they are rated in the 100 to 250 watt/channel range.
>Anyhow, I have much respect for the late Henry Kloss, founder of
>Cambridge Soundworks because I can see that he strived to produce very
>good, audiophile type speakers at an economical cost. I've been an avid
>fan for quite some time, starting off wiht his ensemble speakers.
>
>Weaknesses of the Tower II? Something tells me that when Mr. Kloss built
>the Tower II speakers, to keep his costs low, he chose a dome tweeter
>which does have a "hotspot." There are frequencies in which it tends to
>respond to a little to strongly. A slight annoyance, but not enough to
>take away the enjoyment of the music. Also, the midrange is not quite
>flat. There are probably undulations in frequency response here and
>there. Despite its weaknesses, though, these speakers do not fail to
>convey the life of the music.
>
>Still, for a pair of speakers that relay the beauty of music, the
>ability to reproduce a frequency range from 30 Hz to 20 Khz in a
>respectable manner, all for the cost of about $500.00, I am totally in
>their camp. Mr. Kloss kept his eye on the true prize: presenting music
>in a natural, realistic manner. Even with the foibles metiontioned
>previously, these tower IIs can really sing. There would be
>times I have my amp pumping at rated power and the music just takes me.
> With the recent addition of the EMU 0404 USB, the music would take me
>for hours on end. I would just keep going. Songs that come to mind are:
>
>"Rememberances" from the Schindler's List Soundtrack
>"Arise, Clay", from the Gods and Monsters Soundtrack
>"Die Another Day" - Pop star Madonna's theme to the James Bond Movie
>"Shawshanck Redemption - End title, So was Red" Shawshank redemption
>movie soundtrack
>
>Oh, and by the way, my Yamaha feeds the tower IIs in a bi-wire setup. A
>single point of contact on the amp goes to 2 separate connections on the
>speaker. One pair of wires for the midrange/tweeter and the other pair
>for the dual woofers.
>
>Another thing: my amp's tone controls are always set to bypass; the
>audio signal goes straight from the source to the amp, thru the volume
>control, onto the speakers. That's it.
>
>Problem: I cooked my Xovers. This is the 2nd time this has happened in a
>5 month period. My woofers work fine for both melt downs but the mids
>and tweeter are SOL.
>To verify, I dis-connected the tweeter and tested it individualy to find
>that it was ok, so I concluded that the problem was the xovers. Anyhow,
>this is the 2nd time around, so I know:)
>
>For this 2nd go round, just 1 of my speakers cooked the xovers. The
>other one is fine. But who knows for how long the other one will last
>given the history.
>
>So now I'm at the point that I have to upgrade the speakers. Here's what
>I'm looking for:
>
>Audiophile quality speakers with these specifications:
>
>3 dimensional soundstage, or least speakers with some depth.
>
>Able to produce down to 30 Hz, to reach "down below," so to speak. I
>look at 40 Hz as the breaking point. 40 Hz and higher is the fake bass,
>whereas anything below is bass you can feel, rock your foundations.
>These tower IIs introduced me to 30 Hz bass and I never want to go back:)
>
>Economical price tag, in the $1000 to $2000 price range.
>
>I've had my eye on the B&W range of speakers but would appreaciate if
>anyone could point me to other options.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>I am truly hurting, here. How would you feel if 1 of your speakers lost
>its xover, 5 months after being replaced?
>
>Please recommend replacement speakers that will hopefully fill the
>criteria I mentioned above.
>
>Thanks
>
>CD
---
Rob Tweed
Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd
Registered in England: No 3220901
Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR
Web-site: http :// www .mgateway,com
SlipstreamUSA: April 2, Renaissance Hotel, Orlando
http :// www .OutOfTheSlipstream,com
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Tue, 6 May 2008 15:59:41 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote
(in article <fvqnst01nd3@news3.newsguy,com >):
> Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to
> remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the
> first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to
> blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a
> look: http :// www .emu,com /products/product.asp?product=15185
>
> When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital
> pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp.
How do you like your A500? I think its a remarkable achievement to have an
amp that powerful, be that inexpensive.
On Tue, 6 May 2008 15:59:41 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote
(in article <fvqnst01nd3@news3.newsguy,com >):
> Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to
> remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the
> first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to
> blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a
> look: http :// www .emu,com /products/product.asp?product=15185
>
> When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital
> pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp.
How do you like your A500? I think its a remarkable achievement to have an
amp that powerful, be that inexpensive.
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On 7 May 2008 02:42:47 GMT, Sonnova <sonnova@audiosanatorium,com >
wrote:
>> When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital
>> pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp.
>
>How do you like your A500? I think its a remarkable achievement to have an
>amp that powerful, be that inexpensive.
Well it's been a bit of a hit and miss experience with the Behringer
to be honest. Within a few days, the first developed an quiet but
audible hum (both mechanically emanated from the machine and also
through the speakers), so I sent it back. The second developed a
dangerously noisy potentiometer that nearly blew my speakers up so it
went back. The third one, which I decided to keep, was just like the
first: silent to begin with, but now when you turn it on you can hear
it humming quietly. My suspicion is that the price of low cost is
poor quality control.
I decided that for such a ridiculously low price I could live with the
hum (it's not really significant compared with all the other noise
coming from my computers and domestic hardware anyway!). Ignoring the
slight hum, otherwise the sonic quality is excellent - again
considering the price it is really quite astonishing. ....and it sure
has plenty of power at its disposal.
So if you can be prepared to keep sending duff ones back, it's an amp
that is definitely worth checking out.
Let me put it this way: I have a vintage Quad 404 (Mk1) power amp
which is now languishing unused in the corner of my bedroom. I much
prefer the sound of the Behringer. How it would compare with one of
the big name (and $$$ expensive) amps would be interesting to know.
Any ideas why the Behringer should be totally silent to begin with and
then begin to hum after a day or so of use? That's something I've
found a little difficult to explain.
---
Rob Tweed
Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd
Registered in England: No 3220901
Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR
Web-site: http :// www .mgateway,com
SlipstreamUSA: April 2, Renaissance Hotel, Orlando
http :// www .OutOfTheSlipstream,com
On 7 May 2008 02:42:47 GMT, Sonnova <sonnova@audiosanatorium,com >
wrote:
>> When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital
>> pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp.
>
>How do you like your A500? I think its a remarkable achievement to have an
>amp that powerful, be that inexpensive.
Well it's been a bit of a hit and miss experience with the Behringer
to be honest. Within a few days, the first developed an quiet but
audible hum (both mechanically emanated from the machine and also
through the speakers), so I sent it back. The second developed a
dangerously noisy potentiometer that nearly blew my speakers up so it
went back. The third one, which I decided to keep, was just like the
first: silent to begin with, but now when you turn it on you can hear
it humming quietly. My suspicion is that the price of low cost is
poor quality control.
I decided that for such a ridiculously low price I could live with the
hum (it's not really significant compared with all the other noise
coming from my computers and domestic hardware anyway!). Ignoring the
slight hum, otherwise the sonic quality is excellent - again
considering the price it is really quite astonishing. ....and it sure
has plenty of power at its disposal.
So if you can be prepared to keep sending duff ones back, it's an amp
that is definitely worth checking out.
Let me put it this way: I have a vintage Quad 404 (Mk1) power amp
which is now languishing unused in the corner of my bedroom. I much
prefer the sound of the Behringer. How it would compare with one of
the big name (and $$$ expensive) amps would be interesting to know.
Any ideas why the Behringer should be totally silent to begin with and
then begin to hum after a day or so of use? That's something I've
found a little difficult to explain.
---
Rob Tweed
Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd
Registered in England: No 3220901
Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR
Web-site: http :// www .mgateway,com
SlipstreamUSA: April 2, Renaissance Hotel, Orlando
http :// www .OutOfTheSlipstream,com
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
....further to my previous posting, I meant to say Quad 405 of course!
On 7 May 2008 02:42:47 GMT, Sonnova <sonnova@audiosanatorium,com >
wrote:
>On Tue, 6 May 2008 15:59:41 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote
>(in article <fvqnst01nd3@news3.newsguy,com >):
>
>> Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to
>> remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the
>> first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to
>> blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a
>> look: http :// www .emu,com /products/product.asp?product=15185
>>
>> When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital
>> pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp.
>
>How do you like your A500? I think its a remarkable achievement to have an
>amp that powerful, be that inexpensive.
---
Rob Tweed
Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd
Registered in England: No 3220901
Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR
Web-site: http :// www .mgateway,com
SlipstreamUSA: April 2, Renaissance Hotel, Orlando
http :// www .OutOfTheSlipstream,com
....further to my previous posting, I meant to say Quad 405 of course!
On 7 May 2008 02:42:47 GMT, Sonnova <sonnova@audiosanatorium,com >
wrote:
>On Tue, 6 May 2008 15:59:41 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote
>(in article <fvqnst01nd3@news3.newsguy,com >):
>
>> Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to
>> remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the
>> first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to
>> blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a
>> look: http :// www .emu,com /products/product.asp?product=15185
>>
>> When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital
>> pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp.
>
>How do you like your A500? I think its a remarkable achievement to have an
>amp that powerful, be that inexpensive.
---
Rob Tweed
Company: M/Gateway Developments Ltd
Registered in England: No 3220901
Registered Office: 58 Francis Road,Ashford, Kent TN23 7UR
Web-site: http :// www .mgateway,com
SlipstreamUSA: April 2, Renaissance Hotel, Orlando
http :// www .OutOfTheSlipstream,com
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
On Wed, 7 May 2008 15:32:16 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote
(in article <fvtalg0109k@news4.newsguy,com >):
> On 7 May 2008 02:42:47 GMT, Sonnova <sonnova@audiosanatorium,com >
> wrote:
>
>>> When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital
>>> pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp.
>>
>> How do you like your A500? I think its a remarkable achievement to have an
>> amp that powerful, be that inexpensive.
>
> Well it's been a bit of a hit and miss experience with the Behringer
> to be honest. Within a few days, the first developed an quiet but
> audible hum (both mechanically emanated from the machine and also
> through the speakers), so I sent it back. The second developed a
> dangerously noisy potentiometer that nearly blew my speakers up so it
> went back. The third one, which I decided to keep, was just like the
> first: silent to begin with, but now when you turn it on you can hear
> it humming quietly. My suspicion is that the price of low cost is
> poor quality control.
>
> I decided that for such a ridiculously low price I could live with the
> hum (it's not really significant compared with all the other noise
> coming from my computers and domestic hardware anyway!). Ignoring the
> slight hum, otherwise the sonic quality is excellent - again
> considering the price it is really quite astonishing. ....and it sure
> has plenty of power at its disposal.
>
> So if you can be prepared to keep sending duff ones back, it's an amp
> that is definitely worth checking out.
>
> Let me put it this way: I have a vintage Quad 404 (Mk1) power amp
> which is now languishing unused in the corner of my bedroom. I much
> prefer the sound of the Behringer. How it would compare with one of
> the big name (and $$$ expensive) amps would be interesting to know.
>
> Any ideas why the Behringer should be totally silent to begin with and
> then begin to hum after a day or so of use? That's something I've
> found a little difficult to explain.
Reason I asked is because the one they sent me has developed distortion in
Channel 2 (right). I guess I need to send it back, I suspect that you are
correct about the price vs quality control.
On Wed, 7 May 2008 15:32:16 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote
(in article <fvtalg0109k@news4.newsguy,com >):
> On 7 May 2008 02:42:47 GMT, Sonnova <sonnova@audiosanatorium,com >
> wrote:
>
>>> When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital
>>> pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp.
>>
>> How do you like your A500? I think its a remarkable achievement to have an
>> amp that powerful, be that inexpensive.
>
> Well it's been a bit of a hit and miss experience with the Behringer
> to be honest. Within a few days, the first developed an quiet but
> audible hum (both mechanically emanated from the machine and also
> through the speakers), so I sent it back. The second developed a
> dangerously noisy potentiometer that nearly blew my speakers up so it
> went back. The third one, which I decided to keep, was just like the
> first: silent to begin with, but now when you turn it on you can hear
> it humming quietly. My suspicion is that the price of low cost is
> poor quality control.
>
> I decided that for such a ridiculously low price I could live with the
> hum (it's not really significant compared with all the other noise
> coming from my computers and domestic hardware anyway!). Ignoring the
> slight hum, otherwise the sonic quality is excellent - again
> considering the price it is really quite astonishing. ....and it sure
> has plenty of power at its disposal.
>
> So if you can be prepared to keep sending duff ones back, it's an amp
> that is definitely worth checking out.
>
> Let me put it this way: I have a vintage Quad 404 (Mk1) power amp
> which is now languishing unused in the corner of my bedroom. I much
> prefer the sound of the Behringer. How it would compare with one of
> the big name (and $$$ expensive) amps would be interesting to know.
>
> Any ideas why the Behringer should be totally silent to begin with and
> then begin to hum after a day or so of use? That's something I've
> found a little difficult to explain.
Reason I asked is because the one they sent me has developed distortion in
Channel 2 (right). I guess I need to send it back, I suspect that you are
correct about the price vs quality control.
Re: System down: Audiophile urgency
"Sonnova" <sonnova@audiosanatorium,com > wrote in message
news:fvr4v70kg1@news5.newsguy,com ...
> On Tue, 6 May 2008 15:59:41 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote
> (in article <fvqnst01nd3@news3.newsguy,com >):
>> Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to
>> remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the
>> first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to
>> blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a
>> look: http :// www .emu,com /products/product.asp?product=15185
I was wondering about the changes in the price/performance of converter
chips that have led to equipment like the EMu 0404 - > 110 dB dynamic range
for < $200. I did a little research and found that converter chips this
good now cost less than $3 each in small quantities. The really
high-performance chips which have dynamic range just under 130 dB are now
about $10.
>> When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital
>> pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp.
> How do you like your A500?
Mine has been flawless after about a year of intermittant use.
> I think its a remarkable achievement to have an
> amp that powerful, be that inexpensive.
At just over 100 wpc into 8 ohms, the A500's price/performance pales in
comparison to some 100 wpc stereo receivers selling for under $100.
"Sonnova" <sonnova@audiosanatorium,com > wrote in message
news:fvr4v70kg1@news5.newsguy,com ...
> On Tue, 6 May 2008 15:59:41 -0700, Rob Tweed wrote
> (in article <fvqnst01nd3@news3.newsguy,com >):
>> Ah the EMU! Glad you're still liking it Codifus, cos I seem to
>> remember I was originally responsible for you checking it out in the
>> first place. However I started to get worried when you said it was to
>> blame! For those who haven't checked it out, it's definitely worth a
>> look: http :// www .emu,com /products/product.asp?product=15185
I was wondering about the changes in the price/performance of converter
chips that have led to equipment like the EMu 0404 - > 110 dB dynamic range
for < $200. I did a little research and found that converter chips this
good now cost less than $3 each in small quantities. The really
high-performance chips which have dynamic range just under 130 dB are now
about $10.
>> When I'm not using mine for live recording, it acts as a "digital
>> pre-amp" connected to a Behringer A500 amp.
> How do you like your A500?
Mine has been flawless after about a year of intermittant use.
> I think its a remarkable achievement to have an
> amp that powerful, be that inexpensive.
At just over 100 wpc into 8 ohms, the A500's price/performance pales in
comparison to some 100 wpc stereo receivers selling for under $100.
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