Look out Jenn

Re: Look out Jenn

In article
<3f67b17d-03cd-4fc0-ae29-c60eea00746c@q24g2000prf.googlegroups . com >,
ScottW <ScottW48@hotmail . com > wrote:

> On May 16, 1:37 pm, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr . com > wrote:
> > In article
> > <b2b9f434-adba-4b57-bdef-bdd91d496...@q24g2000prf.googlegroups . com >,
> >
> >  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > > On May 16, 11:36 am, MiNe 109   <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr . com > wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <808e0e9c-0742-490c-96de-c65f039e4...@w4g2000prd.googlegroups . com >,
> >
> > > >  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > > > >  And this demo showed that with a properly rehearsed and trained
> > > > > orchestra, that is sufficient.
> >
> > > > Anyone will do,
> >
> > > Ouch, our resident conductor is feeling the pain.
> >
> > She'll do fine properly rehearsing and training.
>
> After a lifetime she still needs training, ouch.

Can you read? She's the one doing the training.

> Of course I could say the same for my grandkids.
> But with their life being ahead of them it isn't the condemnation
> of your thoughtless comment.

Another broken arrow from Scott's quiver.

Stephen

Re: Look out Jenn

On May 16, 3:53 pm, ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> On May 16, 1:37 pm, MiNe 109   <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr . com > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <b2b9f434-adba-4b57-bdef-bdd91d496...@q24g2000prf.googlegroups . com >,
>
> >  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > > On May 16, 11:36 am, MiNe 109   <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr . com > wrote=
:
> > > > In article
> > > > <808e0e9c-0742-490c-96de-c65f039e4...@w4g2000prd.googlegroups . com >,
>
> > > >  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > > > >  And this demo showed that with a properly rehearsed and trained=

> > > > > orchestra, that is sufficient.
>
> > > > Anyone will do,
>
> > > Ouch, our resident conductor is feeling the pain.
>
> > She'll do fine properly rehearsing and training.
>
>  After a lifetime she still needs training, ouch.
> Of course I could say the same for my grandkids.
> But with their life being ahead of them it isn't the condemnation
> of your thoughtless comment.

LOL!

What an imbecile.

Re: Look out Jenn

In article
<smcelroy2-ACA896.15371716052008@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu>,
MiNe 109 <smcelroy2@POPaustin.rr . com > wrote:

> In article
> <b2b9f434-adba-4b57-bdef-bdd91d496ad6@q24g2000prf.googlegroups . com >,
> ScottW <ScottW48@hotmail . com > wrote:
>
> > On May 16, 11:36 am, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr . com > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <808e0e9c-0742-490c-96de-c65f039e4...@w4g2000prd.googlegroups . com >,
> > >
> > >  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > > >  And this demo showed that with a properly rehearsed and trained
> > > > orchestra, that is sufficient.
> > >
> > > Anyone will do,
> >
> > Ouch, our resident conductor is feeling the pain.
>
> She'll do fine properly rehearsing and training.
>
> Stephen

As you know, it's even more than that. The moment to moment things that
conductors (actually, any live performer) do make profound differences
in how the music sounds.

Re: Look out Jenn

In article
<jennconductsREMOVETHIS-963724.13554816052008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.n
et>,
Jenn <jennconductsREMOVETHIS@mac . com > wrote:

> In article
> <smcelroy2-ACA896.15371716052008@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu>,
> MiNe 109 <smcelroy2@POPaustin.rr . com > wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <b2b9f434-adba-4b57-bdef-bdd91d496ad6@q24g2000prf.googlegroups . com >,
> > ScottW <ScottW48@hotmail . com > wrote:
> >
> > > On May 16, 11:36 am, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr . com > wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <808e0e9c-0742-490c-96de-c65f039e4...@w4g2000prd.googlegroups . com >,
> > > >
> > > >  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > > > >  And this demo showed that with a properly rehearsed and trained
> > > > > orchestra, that is sufficient.
> > > >
> > > > Anyone will do,
> > >
> > > Ouch, our resident conductor is feeling the pain.
> >
> > She'll do fine properly rehearsing and training.

> As you know, it's even more than that. The moment to moment things that
> conductors (actually, any live performer) do make profound differences
> in how the music sounds.

Perhaps Scott would enjoy Karajan's late-in-life DVDs whose visual focus
is very much on the conductor.

Or, alternatively, the choral conducting instructional video "What They
See Is What You Get"

Stephen

Re: Look out Jenn

In article
<808e0e9c-0742-490c-96de-c65f039e4b9a@w4g2000prd.googlegroups . com >,
ScottW <ScottW48@hotmail . com > wrote:

> On May 16, 8:45 am, Jenn <jennconductsREMOVET...@mac . com > wrote:
> > In article
> > <0a3e166c-236c-44e3-8b7e-8a7eff784...@l17g2000pri.googlegroups . com >,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > > On May 15, 9:54 pm, Jenn <jennconductsREMOVET...@mac . com > wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <d3944363-370e-40e8-bb4b-9628e5ed7...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups . com >,
> >
> > > >  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > > > > On May 15, 2:05 pm, Jenn <jennconductsREMOVET...@mac . com > wrote:
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > <9bdebaa0-b82d-49ea-81f2-e87c20faa...@v26g2000prm.googlegroups . com >,
> >
> > > > > >  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > > > > > > On May 15, 12:06 am, Jenn <jennconductsREMOVET...@mac . com > wrote:
> > > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > > <80397619-fee5-4da4-81fd-79b74627b...@w4g2000prd.googlegroups.co
> > > > > > > > m>,
> >
> > > > > > > >  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > A replacement is in development.
> >
> > > > > > > > > * news.yahoo . com /s/ap/20080514/ap_en_mu/robot_conductor1st
> > > > > > > > >_ld_
> > > > > > > > >wr..
> > > > > > > > >.
> >
> > > > > > > > > ScottW
> >
> > > > > > > > Nah, he has no legato...
> >
> > > > > > >  Simple subroutine.   This is just a matter of time.
> >
> > > > > > Well, enjoy that music.
> >
> > > > > Millions do every day.
> >
> > > > How so?
> >
> > >  How many drum tracks in pop music don't have a drummer
> > > but a programmer?
> >
> > I thought we were talking about conductors.
>
> Conductors who are programmed to mimic
> other conductors.

Which are we talking about: drum synth tracks or conductors?

>
> >
> >
> >
> > > > > So who is the greatest conductor ever who is passed?
> >
> > > > Matter of opinion.  There's one of your problems.
> >
> > > Not important, pick one, never mind we'll have the robot
> > > mimic you.
> >
> > Nope.  Posture, subtle muscle movement, eyes, moment to moment
> > adjustments, facial gestures, human interaction, spontenious expression
> > based on human experience, etc.  You have too narrow a view of what
> > conductors do in performance.
>
> That is what the do in creating a live performance which leads to all
> performances being different.

Correct...

> This effort is more in trying to recreate a specific live performance
> with live instrumentation. I guess for this to work we need
> robot players too. Quite possible.

See below.

>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > > > If there was a video of his greatest performance, would you be
> > > > > opposed
> > > > > to a robot mimicking that performance leading a fine orchestra?
> >
> > > > I wouldn't be "opposed" but I guarantee that it wouldn't sound the
> > > > same.
> >
> > >  Do any two performances, even by the same conductor, sound the same?
> >
> > > We're talking about replicating. Even a recording won't sound the same
> > > as the original.  But if one doesn't accept something short of
> > > perfection and strive to improve, you'll never have anything.
> >
> > It won't replicate anything except some of the movement involved.  See
> > above.
>
> And this demo showed that with a properly rehearsed and trained
> orchestra, that is sufficient.

No, it hasn't shown anything of the sort. Scott, this is difficult to
explain in this sort of forum without using A LOT of words, but I'll
give it a try, and hope that it will be of some interest to some people.
The magic of live performance is that it's different every time. Part
of the reason to go to your umpteenth concert of a conductor or pianist
or singer-songwriter doing the same work you've heard them do before is
the hope that the next performance catches the "lightening in a bottle";
an evening that will transcend, that will be life changing. And it's
different every time because of a zillion decisions (conscience and
unconscience) that the performer(s) makes. And those decisions are made
based on so many things, ranging from that's day's activity, to the
performer's love live, to what she ate for breakfast, to the energy of
the audience (or lack thereof), and most importantly, the totality of
that performer's life experience. Further, in the case of conductors,
there are SO many moment to moment reactions that take place between
her/him and the players/singers. Is the 2nd trumpet too loud? too
soft? Dragging or rushing slightly? Is his sound too cool? too hot?
Is the articulation wrong? Too legato? too marcato? too staccato? And
these are examples of ONE player among many in just ONE spot in ONE work.

I had a concert Wednesday evening with my college wind ensemble. The
last two works were illustrative of conductors' influence in the music
making. They were both by the fine living composer Frank Ticheli. The
first of the two was his beautiful setting of the folk tune Shenendoah.
There is a lot of bending and flexing of the pulse in this kind of work,
a technique called "rubato". In this case, I was really feeling a sense
of melancholy and longing at that moment, and my conducting of the work
that evening reflected that. I stretched it more than I ever had at
rehearsal. To make this happen, I had to get the attention of the
players in certain ways. One particular place of stretching, I knew
that it would all depend on the 3 second clarinets, due to a harmonic
situation that only they have (Stephen: a beautiful passing tone from a
dom 7 chord to a maj.9). I had to know exactly what to do physically to
get those 3 players to follow what I was doing... not just any 3
players, but THOSE 3 player with THEIR skills, THEIR way of watching and
reacting, etc. The result of all of this rubato, skillfully carried out
by the players, was a very, very special performance that left people
with tears in their eyes. It was possible because I brought my
humanness that I was feeling at that moment to the music. Those moments
can't be rehearsed.
The other Ticheli work was his "Vesuvius". It's wickedly fast, with 24
time changes in the piece; a real workout. My job in this case is all
about keeping it together. Could a robot mimic me in how and when to
conduct 9/8 as 3+3+3 vs. 2+3+2+2, or 7/8 as 3+4 vs. 4+3? Sure. Would it
know when to trust my trumpet section to do certain things in those
situations and when to pay more careful attention to them, based on my
experience with those players, their response during the worm-up, etc?
I think not.

The HUMAN factor in music making is what makes it art.

Re: Look out Jenn

On 16 Mai, 11:45, Jenn <jennconductsREMOVET...@mac . com > wrote:
> In article
> <0a3e166c-236c-44e3-8b7e-8a7eff784...@l17g2000pri.googlegroups . com >,
>
>
>
>
>
>  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > On May 15, 9:54 pm, Jenn <jennconductsREMOVET...@mac . com > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <d3944363-370e-40e8-bb4b-9628e5ed7...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups . com >,
>
> > >  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > > > On May 15, 2:05 pm, Jenn <jennconductsREMOVET...@mac . com > wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <9bdebaa0-b82d-49ea-81f2-e87c20faa...@v26g2000prm.googlegroups . com =
>,
>
> > > > >  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > > > > > On May 15, 12:06 am, Jenn <jennconductsREMOVET...@mac . com > wro=
te:
> > > > > > > In article
> > > > > > > <80397619-fee5-4da4-81fd-79b74627b...@w4g2000prd.googlegroups.=
com>,
>
> > > > > > >  ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> > > > > > > > A replacement is in development.
>
> > > > > > > > * news.yahoo . com /s/ap/20080514/ap en mu/robot conductor1=
st ld
> > > > > > > >wr..
> > > > > > > >.
>
> > > > > > > > ScottW
>
> > > > > > > Nah, he has no legato...
>
> > > > > >  Simple subroutine.   This is just a matter of time.
>
> > > > > Well, enjoy that music.
>
> > > > Millions do every day.
>
> > > How so?
>
> >  How many drum tracks in pop music don't have a drummer
> > but a programmer?
>
> I thought we were talking about conductors.
>
>
>
> > > > So who is the greatest conductor ever who is passed?
>
> > > Matter of opinion.  There's one of your problems.
>
> > Not important, pick one, never mind we'll have the robot
> > mimic you.
>
> Nope.  Posture, subtle muscle movement, eyes, moment to moment
> adjustments, facial gestures, human interaction, spontenious expression
> based on human experience, etc.  You have too narrow a view of what
> conductors do in performance.
>


In other words====\

COMMUNICATION!!!!

he just doesn't get it

>
> > > > If there was a video of his greatest performance, would you be oppos=
ed
> > > > to a robot mimicking that performance leading a fine orchestra?
>
> > > I wouldn't be "opposed" but I guarantee that it wouldn't sound the sam=
e.
>
> >  Do any two performances, even by the same conductor, sound the same?
>
> > We're talking about replicating. Even a recording won't sound the same
> > as the original.  But if one doesn't accept something short of
> > perfection and strive to improve, you'll never have anything.
>
> It won't replicate anything except some of the movement involved.  See
> above.- Ascunde citatul -
>
>

at any rate, one wouldn't be hearing the robot,
one would hear the orchestra!!

Re: Look out Jenn

"ScottW" <ScottW48@hotmail . com > wrote in message
news:0a3e166c-236c-44e3-8b7e-8a7eff7841d1@l17g2000pri.googlegroups . com

> Do any two performances, even by the same conductor,
> sound the same?

Chances of something as long and complex as an orchestral work sounding the
same = 0.

Even short solo pieces are easy to ABX from performance to performance.

> We're talking about replicating. Even a recording won't
> sound the same as the original.

Depends on how you define the origional. If you define the original as
being the electrical signal going into the recorder than the possibilities
of "sounds the same" are good. However the action of microphones and mixing
are easy to pick out in a close listening test.

Re: Look out Jenn

On May 16, 1:10 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
> "ScottW" <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote in message
>
> news:0a3e166c-236c-44e3-8b7e-8a7eff7841d1@l17g2000pri.googlegroups . com
>
> >  Do any two performances, even by the same conductor,
> > sound the same?
>
> Chances of something as long and complex as an orchestral work sounding th=
e
> same = 0.
>
> Even short solo pieces are easy to ABX from performance to performance.
>
> > We're talking about replicating. Even a recording won't
> > sound the same  as the original.
>
> Depends on how you define  the origional. If you define the original as
> being the electrical signal going into the recorder than the possibilities=

> of "sounds the same" are good.

The original sound.

> However the action of microphones and mixing
> are easy to pick out in a close listening test.

Exactly. So it seems that to recreate the original sound, the best
way is to use the original instruments. The players and conductor
(not really required) appear to be technically replaceable with
automatons.

ScottW

Re: Look out Jenn

On 16 Mai, 16:27, ScottW <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote:
> On May 16, 1:10 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "ScottW" <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote in message
>
> >news:0a3e166c-236c-44e3-8b7e-8a7eff7841d1@l17g2000pri.googlegroups . com
>
> > >  Do any two performances, even by the same conductor,
> > > sound the same?
>
> > Chances of something as long and complex as an orchestral work sounding =
the
> > same = 0.
>
> > Even short solo pieces are easy to ABX from performance to performance.
>
> > > We're talking about replicating. Even a recording won't
> > > sound the same  as the original.
>
> > Depends on how you define  the origional. If you define the original a=
s
> > being the electrical signal going into the recorder than the possibiliti=
es
> > of "sounds the same" are good.
>
>  The original sound.
>
> >  However the action of microphones and mixing
> > are easy to pick out in a close listening test.
>
>  Exactly.   So it seems that to recreate the original sound, the best
> way is to use the original instruments.  The players and conductor
> (not really required) appear to be technically  replaceable with
> automatons.
>
> ScottW-

Just like your magazine with ABX tests, it will
have an audience of 1.
"At least" you won't have to put up with an audience coughing!

Re: Look out Jenn

In article
<c23d7f22-8699-4a11-b646-b7e6a3b5b38a@q1g2000prf.googlegroups . com >,
ScottW <ScottW48@hotmail . com > wrote:

> On May 16, 1:10 pm, "Arny Krueger" <ar...@hotpop . com > wrote:
> > "ScottW" <Scott...@hotmail . com > wrote in message
> >
> > news:0a3e166c-236c-44e3-8b7e-8a7eff7841d1@l17g2000pri.googlegroups . com
> >
> > >  Do any two performances, even by the same conductor,
> > > sound the same?
> >
> > Chances of something as long and complex as an orchestral work sounding the
> > same = 0.
> >
> > Even short solo pieces are easy to ABX from performance to performance.
> >
> > > We're talking about replicating. Even a recording won't
> > > sound the same  as the original.
> >
> > Depends on how you define  the origional. If you define the original as
> > being the electrical signal going into the recorder than the possibilities
> > of "sounds the same" are good.
>
> The original sound.
>
> > However the action of microphones and mixing
> > are easy to pick out in a close listening test.
>
> Exactly. So it seems that to recreate the original sound, the best
> way is to use the original instruments. The players and conductor
> (not really required) appear to be technically replaceable with
> automatons.
>
> ScottW

As I said before, I hope that you enjoy that "music".

Re: Look out Jenn

"Jenn" <jennconductsREMOVETHIS@mac . com > wrote in message
news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-0539CC.14504416052008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy . net

> As I said before, I hope that you enjoy that "music".

How is it any less like traditional live music than listening to a stereo?

Re: Look out Jenn

In article <x_-dnXr517r7uLPVnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@comcast . com >,
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote:

> "Jenn" <jennconductsREMOVETHIS@mac . com > wrote in message
> news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-0539CC.14504416052008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy . net
>
> > As I said before, I hope that you enjoy that "music".
>
> How is it any less like traditional live music than listening to a stereo?

That's not the point, but "at least" most recordings of music of the
type we're writing about have human performers.

Re: Look out Jenn

"Jenn" <jennconductsREMOVETHIS@mac . com > wrote in message
news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-01509F.17343616052008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy . net
> In article <x_-dnXr517r7uLPVnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@comcast . com >,
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" <jennconductsREMOVETHIS@mac . com > wrote in message
>> news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-0539CC.14504416052008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy . net
>>
>>> As I said before, I hope that you enjoy that "music".
>>
>> How is it any less like traditional live music than
>> listening to a stereo?

> That's not the point,

Really?

> but "at least" most recordings of
> music of the type we're writing about have human
> performers.

I don't think we are that far from software that can pass the Eliza test for
emotion in music.

Re: Look out Jenn

In article <yKSdnQ3CtqP9tLPVnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@comcast . com >,
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote:

> "Jenn" <jennconductsREMOVETHIS@mac . com > wrote in message
> news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-01509F.17343616052008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy . net
> > In article <x_-dnXr517r7uLPVnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@comcast . com >,
> > "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote:
> >
> >> "Jenn" <jennconductsREMOVETHIS@mac . com > wrote in message
> >> news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-0539CC.14504416052008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.
> >> net
> >>
> >>> As I said before, I hope that you enjoy that "music".
> >>
> >> How is it any less like traditional live music than
> >> listening to a stereo?
>
> > That's not the point,
>
> Really?

Yes. It's a given that listening to a stereo isn't like live music.

>
> > but "at least" most recordings of
> > music of the type we're writing about have human
> > performers.
>
> I don't think we are that far from software that can pass the Eliza test for
> emotion in music.

What's the Eliza test?

Re: Look out Jenn


"Jenn" <jennconductsREMOVETHIS@mac . com > wrote in message
news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-8F6222.17435916052008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy . net ...
> In article <yKSdnQ3CtqP9tLPVnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@comcast . com >,
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote:
>
>> "Jenn" <jennconductsREMOVETHIS@mac . com > wrote in message
>> news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-01509F.17343616052008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy . net
>> > In article <x_-dnXr517r7uLPVnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@comcast . com >,
>> > "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop . com > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Jenn" <jennconductsREMOVETHIS@mac . com > wrote in message
>> >> news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-0539CC.14504416052008@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.
>> >> net
>> >>
>> >>> As I said before, I hope that you enjoy that "music".
>> >>
>> >> How is it any less like traditional live music than
>> >> listening to a stereo?
>>
>> > That's not the point,
>>
>> Really?
>
> Yes. It's a given that listening to a stereo isn't like live music.
>
>>
>> > but "at least" most recordings of
>> > music of the type we're writing about have human
>> > performers.
>>
>> I don't think we are that far from software that can pass the Eliza test
>> for
>> emotion in music.
>
> What's the Eliza test?

LOL! If he really knew anything about psychology, he wouldn't hold the Eliza
program up as a "test" for anything?

It was a sophomoric little computer program writen to ask open ended "how do
you feel about that" questions keying on certain response structures.
Nobody would mistake it for a real discussion with a psychiatrist, although
occassionally it would hit upon a sequence of two or three responses that
might pass for 'real".

So now we know Arny holds up random music as his model.....who knew?